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"The internet-shopping boom has spawned an excess-stuff economy, in which retailers such as Overstock.com buy up extra product from full-price retailers." It w

"The internet-shopping boom has spawned an excess-stuff economy, in which retailers such as Overstock.com buy up extra product from full-price retailers." It was a problem _before_ internet shopping. The article focuses on America, but it's a problem all over (obviously). For example, online shopping is so bad in mainland China, that people don't even trust major retailer stores on Taobao or Tianmao. It might be fake (at least, in their eyes). That said, it's striking how much stuff there is. Walking around outside, you're kind of sheltered from it, but go into any market, mall, or shopping district and just... stand there and look. There's so much _stuff_ that it's insane. How do these stores stay in business? Why is there so much crap all over the shelves? Speaking as one person, I don't buy much. And I understand that these stores need to be able to potentially sell to a lot of people, but is there really a need for this much?

Lowkeyloki 7y ago
I agree. This has been a problem for decades. The only difference now is that it's much more obvious since we now have a more complete, centralized catalog of all the stuff that exists. Of course, I could get on my intellectual high horse and talk about things like chaos theory and market complexity and the value of redundancy and competition. But I won't do that because I completely understand where this article is coming from on a human level.
crispinb 7y ago
Insane indeed. As someone who lives in the bush, the craziness of it all smacks me in the face when I make city trips. It's a prime example of the boiling frog syndrome - generations have become insensible to physical reality. As waves of consequent ecological catastrophes wash over our 'civilisation', violence will inevitably ensue: citizens against governments, governments against citizens, communities against communities, all against all. Some will ask whether it was all worth it for temporary abundances of cheap plastic crap. Most will just be helplessly enveloped.
- ip26 7y ago
  IMO it's the twin problems of the relatively high price of labor here, and the relatively low price of labor elsewhere. E.g., I don't want to accumulate a ton of stuff, but an entire pipe sweating kit that I might use once or twice a year costs less than one ten minute visit from a plumber. (multiply by every single other trade applied around the house)
  - jmb12686 7y ago
    As a homeowner, I completely relate to this. Every single task around the house requires "stuff" that you may or may not ever use again. That is of course unless you pay $100+ an hour for a contractor, and that's IF (and big if) they are even willing to show up for a small simplistic job. Many contractors worth their salt are only interested in larger jobs that are more profitable. Good luck finding someone to do handyman work.
    - mc32 7y ago
      It’s too bad tool-banks (communal or otherwise) aren’t too popular. One alternative (for seldom used things) is renting tools from home improvement centers/large hardware stores. Even auto parts stores have rentals or loaners for a deposit programs.
      - marcosdumay 7y ago
        Tool renting is complex. Is the renter open at the time I need the tool? How long does it take to go there, get it, and come back? Many of the stuff I have is there just because I can't rent it when I have a bit of time to use it.
        twothamendment 7y ago
        It doesn't have to be complex to be useful. I had a small plumbing project, needed a pex crimper. My local plumbing store will loan it to you for free if you buy the parts there. There is no schedule, no set time to return it. If it is there, you can have it. If not, you can wait, they will call you when it comes in.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > As someone who lives in the bush, the craziness of it all smacks me in the face when I make city trips. It's a prime example of the boiling frog syndrome - generations have become insensible to physical reality. As waves of consequent ecological catastrophes wash over our 'civilisation', violence will inevitably ensue: citizens against governments, governments against citizens, communities against communities, all against all. Boiling frog syndrome is an interesting way of putting it....I wonder how many social influencers there are that "live out in the sticks" where they have a true separation from the change the rest of society is going through.
SantalBlush 7y ago
This is one of the fascinating things (in my mind) in economics. Not everyone can contribute directly to the production of our most basic needs; those who don't must convince the productive members that they have a good worth spending money on. It might actually be worthless, but what else will those productive people do with their excess cash? Once they have met their basic needs, boredom sets in. So they buy garbage to pass the time. That's a simplification, sure, but there's truth to it. I think the populace is comfortable with this model because they prefer to have people do pointless work for their money rather than just get a handout.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > Not everyone can contribute directly to the production of our most basic needs; those who don't must convince the productive members that they have a good worth spending money on. I think it's actually much worth because it's the other way around. Productive members usually have to convince unproductive to spend money. http://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-should-earn-more-than-bankers/ http://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-should-earn-more-than-b...
Spooky23 7y ago
Yeah, I eye rolled at that quote. My dad worked in lower Manhattan when I was growing up. There were at least three different job-lot, odd-lot chains that he’d get us weird or overstock items from at lunchtime. The reason why that stuff so abundant in China is because that’s where it’s made. In 1970s/80s, when my dad was picking up deals at lunch, New York was a declining industrial powerhouse. Toys and clothes and 10000 other things were made in NYC. My little league uniform was made 20 blocks away in Astoria. (My mom kept it, and my son is wearing the pants 30 years later!) Ball caps were made in Buffalo, etc. Now, we export cash, and that’s what you find collecting in US cities.
- swoongoonz 7y ago
  fuck when are you opening up tours in nyc? this is just fascinating for a west coaster that has no ties here
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    Lol, I’d make a poor guide. My grandpa knew seemingly everything. At his peak, he owned a few taverns with his brothers and seemed to know and get along with everyone.
    - angleofrepose 7y ago
      There are hilarious stories I've heard and read about the way that things used to be "built to last" something a while back about an small Irish village mailman who rode the same bike for decades without ever getting a flat. It was a book I think, can't remember the name though but that image stuck with me. I'm sure that nostalgia and the way stories work have a large part to play in that kind of reminiscents, but there's certainly something to it, and we don't have much of that something these days. I also don't buy much, and I've been rocking my few pair of jeans for years and will for years to come. But my old laptop frame is cracked in many places, my phone screen is cracked for the first time and has been a while now, just waiting for a wayward meeting with water now. To make it relevant to software, though I admit I haven't read the article, it just seems on topic for the forum and I like the conversations around here. Why are versions, or going out of date, or legacy systems such "a thing"? How did we not realize that the databases airlines used 40 years ago were just going to sit in place until something bad happens, and why is keeping them current or really just lubricated so hard? I have a bike I've been needing to do a little work on lately, just a few things all hitting end of life at around the same time, but it's been treating me well for years, and the fixing up process is simple and obvious. New chain and cassette, replace the cables, replace the break pads and tires. It's clear and obvious how I can take care of my thing, the people at my local bike shop are clear and honest with me and I don't have to take their word for it the first time, I know enough to check and confirm. Those guys are good guys, my bike is a good bike. I'm a good owner (mostly). It's a good happy system. I don't know my electronic stuff, I don't know my hardware and I don't know my OS and I don't know my software. I can't tell whether the guy at Fry's or Newegg is cheating me or not. I don't really get how displays have so many damn names and resolutions and surfaces. I mean I get it, but what is a "Retina Display" or a "butterfly keyboard". As if I was selling you a "Surefire chain". What the heck is a "surefire"? I want a bike chain. I know my computer very well, I fight it sometimes, and over the years I got to know it better. I really enjoy playing with tiling wms and xmodmap and I think there is a world of opportunity there (mostly because our modern pop culture doesn't care so much about input devices as PC innovators used to). But my phone? Man, I wish. It seems so clear to me that I can do so many magical handy things with my phone. I know the area, I've lived here for years, but it's a bigger city. Can you just get me to the freeway then turn off the nav? Not a chance. Ah I just accidentally swiped that notification or, what's this, my alarm did go off when I wanted but then it decided to stop and just let me know I overslept. Where are these software logic decisions being made? Can I prevent some action? How do I know what non-visual state changed and most importantly why!? Please give me a simple state dashboard, this is how the real world works. I can see why my sink is leaking or my shelf fell over. I can find why my feet are getting wet and the trash smells. Give me digital physics please so that I can see what is happening to me. Where are things logged? I have a GPS, can I use it? Can I have the best contouring route down this mountain? No it's not likely anyone has been here before or done this with a phone in hand, no I don't care the time prediction or reviews, I just want some lines on a map. I just have a quick question about literal figures my software systems have access to and I can see it, but no way for me to use this ui to get it without coding my own thing up. This is why I enjoy coding, because I can make it do what I want. But also screw that; hours of work for a simple connection between two things that I decided should be connected in an instance of use. I can't do this for everything, I know most things are extensible, but I don't have the energy or interest to figure them all out. I want my whole digital experience to be mine, I'll buy other people's pieces to put in, like I buy furniture for my house. But it's my house, not Google's or my local municipality's. I really enjoy woodwork, I'm not so skilled myself, but my friends are. So I want their stuff, or my simple stuff, or the local farmer's market stuff. I want a simple digital life. I want simple software. If I don't get to see all the latest events or robberies I'm ok with that. I'll find ways to incorporate my neighborhood at my own pace, and with those people directly in mind. I want it designed for me as an individual, not the way something like NextDoor (what's that apps name?) Is designed for what seems to be "The American Neighborhood", that's way too damn broad. I want my tools to work the way I want them to work. Well, long uncertain ramble. Thanks for reading, and I'm glad your kid is using your pants, I think that's hilarious and great. I love all my Dad's stuff, or even just stuff I get to use with him. My Grandad also can tell stories for endless hours, and it's become one of my favorite qualities in the friends I have, and one I love to share with the people around me. Cheers. (I wrote this on mobile, though I'm sure I'll get to cleaning this up in the next couple days, I apologise in advance for autocorrect and punctuation)
jklinger410 7y ago
Internet shopping is a reaction to a lack of free time by an overworked population. Not this cause of all evil capitalism the retailers would like us to believe.

Lowkeyloki 7y ago

I agree. This has been a problem for decades. The only difference now is that it's much more obvious since we now have a more complete, centralized catalog of all the stuff that exists. Of course, I could get on my intellectual high horse and talk about things like chaos theory and market complexity and the value of redundancy and competition. But I won't do that because I completely understand where this article is coming from on a human level.

crispinb 7y ago

Insane indeed. As someone who lives in the bush, the craziness of it all smacks me in the face when I make city trips. It's a prime example of the boiling frog syndrome - generations have become insensible to physical reality. As waves of consequent ecological catastrophes wash over our 'civilisation', violence will inevitably ensue: citizens against governments, governments against citizens, communities against communities, all against all. Some will ask whether it was all worth it for temporary abundances of cheap plastic crap. Most will just be helplessly enveloped.

ip26 7y ago
IMO it's the twin problems of the relatively high price of labor here, and the relatively low price of labor elsewhere. E.g., I don't want to accumulate a ton of stuff, but an entire pipe sweating kit that I might use once or twice a year costs less than one ten minute visit from a plumber. (multiply by every single other trade applied around the house)
- jmb12686 7y ago
  As a homeowner, I completely relate to this. Every single task around the house requires "stuff" that you may or may not ever use again. That is of course unless you pay $100+ an hour for a contractor, and that's IF (and big if) they are even willing to show up for a small simplistic job. Many contractors worth their salt are only interested in larger jobs that are more profitable. Good luck finding someone to do handyman work.
  - mc32 7y ago
    It’s too bad tool-banks (communal or otherwise) aren’t too popular. One alternative (for seldom used things) is renting tools from home improvement centers/large hardware stores. Even auto parts stores have rentals or loaners for a deposit programs.
    - marcosdumay 7y ago
      Tool renting is complex. Is the renter open at the time I need the tool? How long does it take to go there, get it, and come back? Many of the stuff I have is there just because I can't rent it when I have a bit of time to use it.
      - twothamendment 7y ago
        It doesn't have to be complex to be useful. I had a small plumbing project, needed a pex crimper. My local plumbing store will loan it to you for free if you buy the parts there. There is no schedule, no set time to return it. If it is there, you can have it. If not, you can wait, they will call you when it comes in.
mistermann 7y ago
> As someone who lives in the bush, the craziness of it all smacks me in the face when I make city trips. It's a prime example of the boiling frog syndrome - generations have become insensible to physical reality. As waves of consequent ecological catastrophes wash over our 'civilisation', violence will inevitably ensue: citizens against governments, governments against citizens, communities against communities, all against all. Boiling frog syndrome is an interesting way of putting it....I wonder how many social influencers there are that "live out in the sticks" where they have a true separation from the change the rest of society is going through.

SantalBlush 7y ago

This is one of the fascinating things (in my mind) in economics. Not everyone can contribute directly to the production of our most basic needs; those who don't must convince the productive members that they have a good worth spending money on. It might actually be worthless, but what else will those productive people do with their excess cash? Once they have met their basic needs, boredom sets in. So they buy garbage to pass the time. That's a simplification, sure, but there's truth to it. I think the populace is comfortable with this model because they prefer to have people do pointless work for their money rather than just get a handout.

perfunctory 7y ago
> Not everyone can contribute directly to the production of our most basic needs; those who don't must convince the productive members that they have a good worth spending money on. I think it's actually much worth because it's the other way around. Productive members usually have to convince unproductive to spend money. http://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-should-earn-more-than-bankers/ http://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-should-earn-more-than-b...

Spooky23 7y ago

Yeah, I eye rolled at that quote. My dad worked in lower Manhattan when I was growing up. There were at least three different job-lot, odd-lot chains that he’d get us weird or overstock items from at lunchtime. The reason why that stuff so abundant in China is because that’s where it’s made. In 1970s/80s, when my dad was picking up deals at lunch, New York was a declining industrial powerhouse. Toys and clothes and 10000 other things were made in NYC. My little league uniform was made 20 blocks away in Astoria. (My mom kept it, and my son is wearing the pants 30 years later!) Ball caps were made in Buffalo, etc. Now, we export cash, and that’s what you find collecting in US cities.

swoongoonz 7y ago
fuck when are you opening up tours in nyc? this is just fascinating for a west coaster that has no ties here
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Lol, I’d make a poor guide. My grandpa knew seemingly everything. At his peak, he owned a few taverns with his brothers and seemed to know and get along with everyone.
  - angleofrepose 7y ago
    There are hilarious stories I've heard and read about the way that things used to be "built to last" something a while back about an small Irish village mailman who rode the same bike for decades without ever getting a flat. It was a book I think, can't remember the name though but that image stuck with me. I'm sure that nostalgia and the way stories work have a large part to play in that kind of reminiscents, but there's certainly something to it, and we don't have much of that something these days. I also don't buy much, and I've been rocking my few pair of jeans for years and will for years to come. But my old laptop frame is cracked in many places, my phone screen is cracked for the first time and has been a while now, just waiting for a wayward meeting with water now. To make it relevant to software, though I admit I haven't read the article, it just seems on topic for the forum and I like the conversations around here. Why are versions, or going out of date, or legacy systems such "a thing"? How did we not realize that the databases airlines used 40 years ago were just going to sit in place until something bad happens, and why is keeping them current or really just lubricated so hard? I have a bike I've been needing to do a little work on lately, just a few things all hitting end of life at around the same time, but it's been treating me well for years, and the fixing up process is simple and obvious. New chain and cassette, replace the cables, replace the break pads and tires. It's clear and obvious how I can take care of my thing, the people at my local bike shop are clear and honest with me and I don't have to take their word for it the first time, I know enough to check and confirm. Those guys are good guys, my bike is a good bike. I'm a good owner (mostly). It's a good happy system. I don't know my electronic stuff, I don't know my hardware and I don't know my OS and I don't know my software. I can't tell whether the guy at Fry's or Newegg is cheating me or not. I don't really get how displays have so many damn names and resolutions and surfaces. I mean I get it, but what is a "Retina Display" or a "butterfly keyboard". As if I was selling you a "Surefire chain". What the heck is a "surefire"? I want a bike chain. I know my computer very well, I fight it sometimes, and over the years I got to know it better. I really enjoy playing with tiling wms and xmodmap and I think there is a world of opportunity there (mostly because our modern pop culture doesn't care so much about input devices as PC innovators used to). But my phone? Man, I wish. It seems so clear to me that I can do so many magical handy things with my phone. I know the area, I've lived here for years, but it's a bigger city. Can you just get me to the freeway then turn off the nav? Not a chance. Ah I just accidentally swiped that notification or, what's this, my alarm did go off when I wanted but then it decided to stop and just let me know I overslept. Where are these software logic decisions being made? Can I prevent some action? How do I know what non-visual state changed and most importantly why!? Please give me a simple state dashboard, this is how the real world works. I can see why my sink is leaking or my shelf fell over. I can find why my feet are getting wet and the trash smells. Give me digital physics please so that I can see what is happening to me. Where are things logged? I have a GPS, can I use it? Can I have the best contouring route down this mountain? No it's not likely anyone has been here before or done this with a phone in hand, no I don't care the time prediction or reviews, I just want some lines on a map. I just have a quick question about literal figures my software systems have access to and I can see it, but no way for me to use this ui to get it without coding my own thing up. This is why I enjoy coding, because I can make it do what I want. But also screw that; hours of work for a simple connection between two things that I decided should be connected in an instance of use. I can't do this for everything, I know most things are extensible, but I don't have the energy or interest to figure them all out. I want my whole digital experience to be mine, I'll buy other people's pieces to put in, like I buy furniture for my house. But it's my house, not Google's or my local municipality's. I really enjoy woodwork, I'm not so skilled myself, but my friends are. So I want their stuff, or my simple stuff, or the local farmer's market stuff. I want a simple digital life. I want simple software. If I don't get to see all the latest events or robberies I'm ok with that. I'll find ways to incorporate my neighborhood at my own pace, and with those people directly in mind. I want it designed for me as an individual, not the way something like NextDoor (what's that apps name?) Is designed for what seems to be "The American Neighborhood", that's way too damn broad. I want my tools to work the way I want them to work. Well, long uncertain ramble. Thanks for reading, and I'm glad your kid is using your pants, I think that's hilarious and great. I love all my Dad's stuff, or even just stuff I get to use with him. My Grandad also can tell stories for endless hours, and it's become one of my favorite qualities in the friends I have, and one I love to share with the people around me. Cheers. (I wrote this on mobile, though I'm sure I'll get to cleaning this up in the next couple days, I apologise in advance for autocorrect and punctuation)

jklinger410 7y ago

Internet shopping is a reaction to a lack of free time by an overworked population. Not this cause of all evil capitalism the retailers would like us to believe.