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> As years go by the industry is going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of developer-focused engineering process and developers go on to combine more and

> As years go by the industry is going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of developer-focused engineering process and developers go on to combine more and more responsibilities beneath the surface of single cranium. Why do you think developer salaries are so high? As the advancement and sophistication of open-source and SaaS offerings increasingly empowers individual developers to do more for businesses, so do developers leverage those capabilities to demand higher salaries and become more and more integral, as individuals, to the business process. The natural consequence of this is that companies have increased their expectations across the board because they ultimately get more value out of a highly paid full-stack than paying three moderately smaller salaries to a FEE, BEE and a manager/architect/SME to coordinate their efforts.

gentleterror 7y ago
But it does not work that well. Some individuals(not many) do apply to higher standard while the others just slack on the trend wave. And they can do more harm because their responsibility is almost everywhere.
20years 7y ago
The problem that I have seen is most companies don't want to pay a skilled full-stack developer what they are worth. They think $100k is the going rate and unfortunately a lot of junior developers are calling themselves full-stack and jumping at that salary. Then the lines get blurred and the true value of a full-stack developer gets diminished.
- bradhe 7y ago
  > They think $100k is the going rate Okay. So get a different job.
  - ohaideredevs 7y ago
    But it is the going rate for senior developers in fly over states.
- dgzl 7y ago
  I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS development work, and my 3 years industry experience as a Technical Lead somehow was less valuable than people graduating from coding bootcamps. I was told by many people that I was not qualified for a Junior Developer position, but people coming out of these bootcamps were considered "Seniors". I was told by one recruiter that my "degree is almost useless".
  - chimpburger 7y ago
    Unbelievable. Three years of industry experience alone would qualify you beyond a junior position. https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png
    - 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
      These are basically code for "reject them for silly reasons to get back to screening cheap candidates" dgzl probably dodged so many bullets that they should be in the Matrix by now
  - avip 7y ago
    I recently had a recruiter questioning my application for a "senior developer" role as "You seem to have no background in software". I told her I have "a background" of well over 10 years as a developer, and consider it my profession. "So why did you study Biology"? she replied.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      “Does your history degree help you during recruitment?”
      - 7y ago
- root_axis 7y ago
  A senior full-stack developer has so many opportunities that they have the privilege of only considering positions with a compensation level acceptable to them.
exfaang 7y ago
I disagree with that assessment. Sophisticated open source, IaaS, and SaaS offerings greatly lower the barrier of entry in this industry and ought to have a negative effect on wages as dictated by supply and demand. Your argument undermines itself by highlighting that a single open-source-equipped person can do the job of 3 grey beards of old. That automation of labor runs counter to rising wages. As another data point, some of the highest paid engineers in the industry - those manning in the private battlements of the FAANG citadels - are specialist steeped in closed source arcana. I myself have been such an acolyte for many years. My own take on the situation is that the distribution of skillets will further take on a bimodal distribution: the specialists and the generalists. For now both the supply of sophisticated tools and capable practitioners has not kept pace with the demand from modernizing business. When the demand is met and equilibrium reached, I expect salaries to normalize back to what other technical professionals command (e.g. aerospace and civil engineers).
- danmaz74 7y ago
  Automation usually reduces the number of jobs, but increases the pay of those jobs which remain.
- titanomachy 7y ago
  You argue that powerful open-source tools should lower the barrier to entry. That's probably true. But I think there is also some differentiation that happens: the best developers are able to learn more tools and squeeze out more productivity. So a highly motivated and somewhat clever engineer can do a passable job of ops/db/backend/frontend/design on their own, which makes them quite valuable to businesses. FAANGs are a bit of a different story, as you point out. But they also have a lot of infrastructure and culture in place that allows specialists to work efficiently.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- root_axis 7y ago
  > Sophisticated open source, IaaS, and SaaS offerings greatly lower the barrier of entry in this industry I would question this assumption. In my view, the existence of these tools actually increases the barrier to entry because they represent additional skills that developers are expected to posses in order to be competitive in the job market. This is actually a common complaint among developers whenever a new technology gains viral popularity (e.g. AWS, react, k8s). > That automation of labor runs counter to rising wages Well of course it does, except for the people who are paid very well to build the automated systems (i.e. programmers). Fortunately for programmers there still isn't enough supply to meet demand, so senior developers on the frontiers of popular technologies can command outsized salaries but still can't do enough work to eliminate the need for their less sophisticated colleagues (yet). > specialist steeped in closed source arcana Sure, that doesn't really contradict what I'm saying, but I'd also note that whatever closed source project one might be working on is almost certainly benefiting from a gigantic open-source force multiplier in some form or another. > When the demand is met and equilibrium reached, I expect salaries to normalize back to what other technical professionals command (e.g. aerospace and civil engineers). On this we agree. I tell developers all the time that they should enjoy it while it lasts because this definitely won't last forever. I'm pretty bearish on things like AI programmers, but I think open-source and commodity B2B software solutions are rapidly approaching the point where the costs associated with running an engineering department will appear much less imperative.
thatoneuser 7y ago
Then by your own logic developers salaries are low. If you're replacing three people and not being paid three salaries then the company has just found a way to squeeze more blood for less.
- sjy 7y ago
  That's competition. In a properly functioning market, in the long run, the company's reduced costs should be passed on to consumers and not captured by developers. (Unless we're talking about an exceptionally talented individual, rather than changes in the industry, leading to one person doing the job of three.)
dominotw 7y ago
> Why do you think developer salaries are so high? H1B visa limit?
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  Developer salaries are high across the globe (relative to local salaries)
  - ohaideredevs 7y ago
    This is absolutely true. In Eastern Europe, developers literally make 6-10x typical income, but that's because it's impossible to find say, a mechanical engineer job. I do wonder if dev salaries are going to start declining though. Everyone semi-competent with a non-lucrative degree is trying to get into dev now. I am sure the MIT-grad stud with a 135 IQ and a 5 years - decade of experience @ FAANG jobs are safe. As far as typical "senior" developers who can write LoB applications / web apps, I am not so sure - I think at best, salaries will stagnate.

gentleterror 7y ago

But it does not work that well. Some individuals(not many) do apply to higher standard while the others just slack on the trend wave. And they can do more harm because their responsibility is almost everywhere.

20years 7y ago

The problem that I have seen is most companies don't want to pay a skilled full-stack developer what they are worth. They think $100k is the going rate and unfortunately a lot of junior developers are calling themselves full-stack and jumping at that salary. Then the lines get blurred and the true value of a full-stack developer gets diminished.

bradhe 7y ago
> They think $100k is the going rate Okay. So get a different job.
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  But it is the going rate for senior developers in fly over states.
dgzl 7y ago
I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS development work, and my 3 years industry experience as a Technical Lead somehow was less valuable than people graduating from coding bootcamps. I was told by many people that I was not qualified for a Junior Developer position, but people coming out of these bootcamps were considered "Seniors". I was told by one recruiter that my "degree is almost useless".
- chimpburger 7y ago
  Unbelievable. Three years of industry experience alone would qualify you beyond a junior position. https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png
  - 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
    These are basically code for "reject them for silly reasons to get back to screening cheap candidates" dgzl probably dodged so many bullets that they should be in the Matrix by now
- avip 7y ago
  I recently had a recruiter questioning my application for a "senior developer" role as "You seem to have no background in software". I told her I have "a background" of well over 10 years as a developer, and consider it my profession. "So why did you study Biology"? she replied.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    “Does your history degree help you during recruitment?”
    - 7y ago
root_axis 7y ago
A senior full-stack developer has so many opportunities that they have the privilege of only considering positions with a compensation level acceptable to them.

exfaang 7y ago

I disagree with that assessment. Sophisticated open source, IaaS, and SaaS offerings greatly lower the barrier of entry in this industry and ought to have a negative effect on wages as dictated by supply and demand. Your argument undermines itself by highlighting that a single open-source-equipped person can do the job of 3 grey beards of old. That automation of labor runs counter to rising wages. As another data point, some of the highest paid engineers in the industry - those manning in the private battlements of the FAANG citadels - are specialist steeped in closed source arcana. I myself have been such an acolyte for many years. My own take on the situation is that the distribution of skillets will further take on a bimodal distribution: the specialists and the generalists. For now both the supply of sophisticated tools and capable practitioners has not kept pace with the demand from modernizing business. When the demand is met and equilibrium reached, I expect salaries to normalize back to what other technical professionals command (e.g. aerospace and civil engineers).

danmaz74 7y ago
Automation usually reduces the number of jobs, but increases the pay of those jobs which remain.
titanomachy 7y ago
You argue that powerful open-source tools should lower the barrier to entry. That's probably true. But I think there is also some differentiation that happens: the best developers are able to learn more tools and squeeze out more productivity. So a highly motivated and somewhat clever engineer can do a passable job of ops/db/backend/frontend/design on their own, which makes them quite valuable to businesses. FAANGs are a bit of a different story, as you point out. But they also have a lot of infrastructure and culture in place that allows specialists to work efficiently.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
root_axis 7y ago
> Sophisticated open source, IaaS, and SaaS offerings greatly lower the barrier of entry in this industry I would question this assumption. In my view, the existence of these tools actually increases the barrier to entry because they represent additional skills that developers are expected to posses in order to be competitive in the job market. This is actually a common complaint among developers whenever a new technology gains viral popularity (e.g. AWS, react, k8s). > That automation of labor runs counter to rising wages Well of course it does, except for the people who are paid very well to build the automated systems (i.e. programmers). Fortunately for programmers there still isn't enough supply to meet demand, so senior developers on the frontiers of popular technologies can command outsized salaries but still can't do enough work to eliminate the need for their less sophisticated colleagues (yet). > specialist steeped in closed source arcana Sure, that doesn't really contradict what I'm saying, but I'd also note that whatever closed source project one might be working on is almost certainly benefiting from a gigantic open-source force multiplier in some form or another. > When the demand is met and equilibrium reached, I expect salaries to normalize back to what other technical professionals command (e.g. aerospace and civil engineers). On this we agree. I tell developers all the time that they should enjoy it while it lasts because this definitely won't last forever. I'm pretty bearish on things like AI programmers, but I think open-source and commodity B2B software solutions are rapidly approaching the point where the costs associated with running an engineering department will appear much less imperative.

thatoneuser 7y ago

Then by your own logic developers salaries are low. If you're replacing three people and not being paid three salaries then the company has just found a way to squeeze more blood for less.

sjy 7y ago
That's competition. In a properly functioning market, in the long run, the company's reduced costs should be passed on to consumers and not captured by developers. (Unless we're talking about an exceptionally talented individual, rather than changes in the industry, leading to one person doing the job of three.)

dominotw 7y ago

> Why do you think developer salaries are so high? H1B visa limit?

johannes1234321 7y ago
Developer salaries are high across the globe (relative to local salaries)
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  This is absolutely true. In Eastern Europe, developers literally make 6-10x typical income, but that's because it's impossible to find say, a mechanical engineer job. I do wonder if dev salaries are going to start declining though. Everyone semi-competent with a non-lucrative degree is trying to get into dev now. I am sure the MIT-grad stud with a 135 IQ and a 5 years - decade of experience @ FAANG jobs are safe. As far as typical "senior" developers who can write LoB applications / web apps, I am not so sure - I think at best, salaries will stagnate.