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The game in question is Clicker Heroes (a pretty popular idle/incremental game), and the post is by the CEO of Playsaurus. From the thread: > It looks like we

The game in question is Clicker Heroes (a pretty popular idle/incremental game), and the post is by the CEO of Playsaurus. From the thread: > It looks like we can't challenge it. After reading the comments and doing a bit more research, it appears that China's trademark/IP laws are completely different from any Western countries, and Apple just has to do what they say. >It sucks but that's how it is. If you make a game, unless you have ridiculous resources to spend on registering properly in China in advance, you just have to accept China to be a loss. Someone there will steal it.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
wbl 7y ago
WTO TRIPS and current political environment offer some options.
Creationer 7y ago
You need to read the details more carefully. Playsaurus messed up: 1. They launched in China without registering a trademark 2. A competitor registered the trademark after 3 months of their launch 3. They continued to sell for 4 years under a name trademarked by another company, making $73,000+ yearly from that one country Now, they complain about it on Reddit, even though China is a 'First to File' company. The fault lies entirely with Playsaurus, nothing illegal occurred here. https://www.trademarknow.com/blog/first-to-file-versus-first-to-use https://www.trademarknow.com/blog/first-to-file-versus-first... This situation could have occurred in many other countries - the difference is probably that the competitor is content to just sell in China, under a Chinese name, whereas products sold anywhere else would need to use the English name. Edit: Apple taking down the game worldwide is unusual though.
- perennate 7y ago
  The issue is China's predatory trademark system forced them to abandon the Chinese name of the game worldwide, which affects their sales in other Chinese-speaking markets like the sovereign countries of Taiwan (ROC), Malaysia, etc.
  - Roritharr 7y ago
    Germany is also a first-to-file country, although a court case can soften this when overwhelming evidence is presented, which happens very rarely. Having been bit by this myself once, with someone registering my trademark after I failed to do it correctly, i'm a bit unhappy about the state of the law, but at least it provides a sense of security in simplicity, and I can't feel it being predatory. In the case of China it surely feels in a different context as they are brazenly cloning and copying everything under the sun, but that doesn't really change the merit/drawbacks of the legal basis.
    - perennate 7y ago
      The difference would be whether that only impacts sales in Germany, or impacts sales everywhere (under the name trademarked by the copycat in Germany). My impression from the reddit thread is that Apple would face legal problems in China if Apple allows sales in countries like Taiwan, but that impression may be incorrect. Either way I agree that they appear to be incompetent wrt legal matters.
      - aflag 7y ago
        That seems to lie entirely at Apple's discretion. The trade marked name in China is using the Chinese characters only. It would be reasonable for Apple to take down all the uses of the Chinese name worldwide as a precaution. However, they should still allow the English spelling everywhere, including China. I'm sure they'll be able to work it out.
    - founderling 7y ago
      Germany is also a first-to-file country Citation needed. All sources I have read about this topic come to the conclusion that the entity that uses a trademark first wins over an entity that regsiters a trademark afterwards. Example: https://www.markenservice.net/marke-vs-domain.html https://www.markenservice.net/marke-vs-domain.html
      - Roritharr 7y ago
- phren0logy 7y ago
  I wasn't presenting it as fact, I was just trying to save some people a click to know what was going on.
- lambdasquirrel 7y ago
  A Google search seems to reveal that they were targeted by a patent troll in 2018 as well. Seems this company can’t get any slack from life. I would strongly hesitate to blaming the victim. You can easily make the case that they had poor business ops. But this shouldn’t have happened to them. And all the same, I have a hard time empathizing with the anti-China rhetoric. Zynga’s Pincus has been quoted by multiple sources as saying along the lines of: “copy them until you get their results.” Gaming is pretty brutal in that regard, but no one complained when Samsung or LG copied Apple’s designs. There’s a lot of selective bias and double standards here. Although I could fault China’s tech industry for other things, it’s really hard to stand up for the US in the broader context given the hypocrisy with which we apply our ideals.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    >no one complained when Samsung or LG copied Apple’s designs. Making variations of a rectangular device with a touchscreen was always going to be a genre. And one already long trod in fiction. People also don't worry at there being yet another quake-alike.
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      For a time, Samsung did a lot more than just make a rectangular device with touchscreen. They made eerily similar packing material, including the artwork, nearly identical power brick, etc. Hell, as I recall they even had their own version of the dock connector. It was all too blatant to be anything but deliberate.
      - busymom0 7y ago
        Yep, also don't forget this 132 page document where Samsung emails showed they were copying iOS features on left with their own UI on right comparing them to add those features to their own UI: https://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/3227289/samsung-apple-ux-ui-interface-improvement https://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/3227289/samsung-apple-ux-u...
      - glennpratt 7y ago
- didibus 7y ago
  I don't think this is a thing of illegal or not, but just moral. People I think find it immoral that someone can copy a game, name it the same, and if they know the rules of the system better, even get the legal trademark and then appear to be the true original.
- chvid 7y ago
  This is an insightful comment; had this happened in a western country (which it easily could) people would have gone "hey - that's how the world works". But since it happened in China with the current sentiment it is a different story ...
- rurounijones 7y ago
  If they can prove that they were first to market with the game and trademark AND that the other company cloned the game and registed the trademark in bad faith then the trademark should be revoked from the new company and assigned to them. This would be the logical solution. (I am sure some people will harp on about "You cannot prove bad faith" but this is what a court of law should be able to determine. You don't create a copy of another game and use their trademark in any other way apart from coincidence which is highly unlikely in this case)
  - simonh 7y ago
    It should be yes, but in China that's not what happens in practice.
    - aflag 7y ago
      What court cases are you referring to?
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      What is the bet that China would do just that if it happens that a Chinese company is the victim of a non-Chinese company?
- EugeneOZ 7y ago
  You forgot to mention who stole the game. Maybe for some people it's not so important and stealing is just how they used to do things?
- nullandvoid 7y ago
  Nothing illegal happened? Genuine question is it not their IP not regardless of whether a patent was failed - atleast meaning ripping of assets / code would be illegal
  - DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
    I didn't read anything about them stealing IP from the game, but if that had happened, that'd obviously be illegal, yes.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  First to file is for duplicate but independent work, it doesn't excuse theft. The patent law has first to file principle too, but doesn't allow to patent prior work.
nodesocket 7y ago
Putting politics aside, any American who doesn't acknowledge that China has a horrendous track record of stealing intellectual property, ripping off US companies, and unfair practices is just dillusional. It's about time Americans stand up, even though the pain for me is real owning semiconductor stocks and Apple. I'm ok and willing to take short term loses to even the scales long term.
- point78 7y ago
  America and the rest of the world. Why should we deal with a closed economy when they do whatever they want in our countries.
  - ngcc_hk 7y ago
    It is a wonder we talk all about huawei but accept they can block google, Facebook, Whatsapp, ... it is just ok they can do whatever they want in their countries as well as others. But not Eu, American, .... china is just great.
supergirl 7y ago
after reading comments (reddit?) and researching they conclude it can't be challenged? how about hire lawyers? I wouldn't be surprised if they can fight this from US or wherever non-China country they are based in. for example, what happens if you try to trademark this name in US now?
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  It could equally well be "it looks like they didn't infringe on us; or that they have more rights to the mark than us", so a climb down without losing face?? I'm not saying it is, but there's probably little way for most of us to know, you need to know IP law and Chinese, and the Chinese legal system. >if you try to trademark this name in US now? // If you try to register it now you'll find it's registered to Playsaurus, http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:qzvky7.2.2 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:qzv... (serial no. 86389199; int. class. 041).
- derrida 7y ago
  If you were talking 200-300/day revenue would you hire lawyers? It's in that zone where you have to seriously consider
  - supergirl 7y ago
    maybe not, maybe yes. $200 for 1 hour session where the lawyer explains me the options isn't too far fetched. that is the world we live in. you need money to sue. what I wouldn't do is post on reddit and try to start a pitchfork mob by telling only part of the story and screaming "China bad".
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      > $200 for 1 hour session where the lawyer explains me the options Is that all it costs for a lawyer who specializes in Chinese copyright law in America?
      - 7y ago
ksec 7y ago
It is the same with all other Brand Name and Trademark, from Muji [1], ICHIRAN, New Balance, Nike. There are thousands of similar case. May be China's trademark / Brand Name dispute is something new in the tech world, but it has been going on for many many years. [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Company-in-focus/Muji-Japan-s-no-brand-brand-battles-copycats-in-China https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Company-in-focus/Muji-Japan...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

wbl 7y ago

WTO TRIPS and current political environment offer some options.

Creationer 7y ago

You need to read the details more carefully. Playsaurus messed up: 1. They launched in China without registering a trademark 2. A competitor registered the trademark after 3 months of their launch 3. They continued to sell for 4 years under a name trademarked by another company, making $73,000+ yearly from that one country Now, they complain about it on Reddit, even though China is a 'First to File' company. The fault lies entirely with Playsaurus, nothing illegal occurred here. https://www.trademarknow.com/blog/first-to-file-versus-first-to-use https://www.trademarknow.com/blog/first-to-file-versus-first... This situation could have occurred in many other countries - the difference is probably that the competitor is content to just sell in China, under a Chinese name, whereas products sold anywhere else would need to use the English name. Edit: Apple taking down the game worldwide is unusual though.

perennate 7y ago
The issue is China's predatory trademark system forced them to abandon the Chinese name of the game worldwide, which affects their sales in other Chinese-speaking markets like the sovereign countries of Taiwan (ROC), Malaysia, etc.
- Roritharr 7y ago
  Germany is also a first-to-file country, although a court case can soften this when overwhelming evidence is presented, which happens very rarely. Having been bit by this myself once, with someone registering my trademark after I failed to do it correctly, i'm a bit unhappy about the state of the law, but at least it provides a sense of security in simplicity, and I can't feel it being predatory. In the case of China it surely feels in a different context as they are brazenly cloning and copying everything under the sun, but that doesn't really change the merit/drawbacks of the legal basis.
  - perennate 7y ago
    The difference would be whether that only impacts sales in Germany, or impacts sales everywhere (under the name trademarked by the copycat in Germany). My impression from the reddit thread is that Apple would face legal problems in China if Apple allows sales in countries like Taiwan, but that impression may be incorrect. Either way I agree that they appear to be incompetent wrt legal matters.
    - aflag 7y ago
      That seems to lie entirely at Apple's discretion. The trade marked name in China is using the Chinese characters only. It would be reasonable for Apple to take down all the uses of the Chinese name worldwide as a precaution. However, they should still allow the English spelling everywhere, including China. I'm sure they'll be able to work it out.
  - founderling 7y ago
    Germany is also a first-to-file country Citation needed. All sources I have read about this topic come to the conclusion that the entity that uses a trademark first wins over an entity that regsiters a trademark afterwards. Example: https://www.markenservice.net/marke-vs-domain.html https://www.markenservice.net/marke-vs-domain.html
    - Roritharr 7y ago
phren0logy 7y ago
I wasn't presenting it as fact, I was just trying to save some people a click to know what was going on.
lambdasquirrel 7y ago
A Google search seems to reveal that they were targeted by a patent troll in 2018 as well. Seems this company can’t get any slack from life. I would strongly hesitate to blaming the victim. You can easily make the case that they had poor business ops. But this shouldn’t have happened to them. And all the same, I have a hard time empathizing with the anti-China rhetoric. Zynga’s Pincus has been quoted by multiple sources as saying along the lines of: “copy them until you get their results.” Gaming is pretty brutal in that regard, but no one complained when Samsung or LG copied Apple’s designs. There’s a lot of selective bias and double standards here. Although I could fault China’s tech industry for other things, it’s really hard to stand up for the US in the broader context given the hypocrisy with which we apply our ideals.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  >no one complained when Samsung or LG copied Apple’s designs. Making variations of a rectangular device with a touchscreen was always going to be a genre. And one already long trod in fiction. People also don't worry at there being yet another quake-alike.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    For a time, Samsung did a lot more than just make a rectangular device with touchscreen. They made eerily similar packing material, including the artwork, nearly identical power brick, etc. Hell, as I recall they even had their own version of the dock connector. It was all too blatant to be anything but deliberate.
    - busymom0 7y ago
      Yep, also don't forget this 132 page document where Samsung emails showed they were copying iOS features on left with their own UI on right comparing them to add those features to their own UI: https://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/3227289/samsung-apple-ux-ui-interface-improvement https://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/3227289/samsung-apple-ux-u...
    - glennpratt 7y ago
didibus 7y ago
I don't think this is a thing of illegal or not, but just moral. People I think find it immoral that someone can copy a game, name it the same, and if they know the rules of the system better, even get the legal trademark and then appear to be the true original.
chvid 7y ago
This is an insightful comment; had this happened in a western country (which it easily could) people would have gone "hey - that's how the world works". But since it happened in China with the current sentiment it is a different story ...
rurounijones 7y ago
If they can prove that they were first to market with the game and trademark AND that the other company cloned the game and registed the trademark in bad faith then the trademark should be revoked from the new company and assigned to them. This would be the logical solution. (I am sure some people will harp on about "You cannot prove bad faith" but this is what a court of law should be able to determine. You don't create a copy of another game and use their trademark in any other way apart from coincidence which is highly unlikely in this case)
- simonh 7y ago
  It should be yes, but in China that's not what happens in practice.
  - aflag 7y ago
    What court cases are you referring to?
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    What is the bet that China would do just that if it happens that a Chinese company is the victim of a non-Chinese company?
EugeneOZ 7y ago
You forgot to mention who stole the game. Maybe for some people it's not so important and stealing is just how they used to do things?
nullandvoid 7y ago
Nothing illegal happened? Genuine question is it not their IP not regardless of whether a patent was failed - atleast meaning ripping of assets / code would be illegal
- DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
  I didn't read anything about them stealing IP from the game, but if that had happened, that'd obviously be illegal, yes.
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
First to file is for duplicate but independent work, it doesn't excuse theft. The patent law has first to file principle too, but doesn't allow to patent prior work.

nodesocket 7y ago

Putting politics aside, any American who doesn't acknowledge that China has a horrendous track record of stealing intellectual property, ripping off US companies, and unfair practices is just dillusional. It's about time Americans stand up, even though the pain for me is real owning semiconductor stocks and Apple. I'm ok and willing to take short term loses to even the scales long term.

point78 7y ago
America and the rest of the world. Why should we deal with a closed economy when they do whatever they want in our countries.
- ngcc_hk 7y ago
  It is a wonder we talk all about huawei but accept they can block google, Facebook, Whatsapp, ... it is just ok they can do whatever they want in their countries as well as others. But not Eu, American, .... china is just great.

supergirl 7y ago

after reading comments (reddit?) and researching they conclude it can't be challenged? how about hire lawyers? I wouldn't be surprised if they can fight this from US or wherever non-China country they are based in. for example, what happens if you try to trademark this name in US now?

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
It could equally well be "it looks like they didn't infringe on us; or that they have more rights to the mark than us", so a climb down without losing face?? I'm not saying it is, but there's probably little way for most of us to know, you need to know IP law and Chinese, and the Chinese legal system. >if you try to trademark this name in US now? // If you try to register it now you'll find it's registered to Playsaurus, http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:qzvky7.2.2 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:qzv... (serial no. 86389199; int. class. 041).
derrida 7y ago
If you were talking 200-300/day revenue would you hire lawyers? It's in that zone where you have to seriously consider
- supergirl 7y ago
  maybe not, maybe yes. $200 for 1 hour session where the lawyer explains me the options isn't too far fetched. that is the world we live in. you need money to sue. what I wouldn't do is post on reddit and try to start a pitchfork mob by telling only part of the story and screaming "China bad".
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > $200 for 1 hour session where the lawyer explains me the options Is that all it costs for a lawyer who specializes in Chinese copyright law in America?
    - 7y ago

ksec 7y ago

It is the same with all other Brand Name and Trademark, from Muji [1], ICHIRAN, New Balance, Nike. There are thousands of similar case. May be China's trademark / Brand Name dispute is something new in the tech world, but it has been going on for many many years. [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Company-in-focus/Muji-Japan-s-no-brand-brand-battles-copycats-in-China https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Company-in-focus/Muji-Japan...