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> Manning, Assange and Snowden provided a public service to the American public by showing them what their government was doing. And swathes of the US public s

by dpwm 7y ago

> Manning, Assange and Snowden provided a public service to the American public by showing them what their government was doing. And swathes of the US public seem to be cheering as they go down. Strange times.

mcv 7y ago
Swathes of the US public seem to be cheering as their own country is going down. Strange times indeed.
- oreo83 7y ago
  ?
- jolfdb 7y ago
  The source of your confusion is your conflation of a criminal government with the country itself.
  - codehalo 7y ago
    Somebody's voting them in.
    - jdironman 7y ago
      Then we need more power voting out.
    - wallace_f 7y ago
      Most people are voting based on emotions which are pre-occupied with issues that are at the forefront of American politics. These often are exceptionally philosophical, emotional or religious topics; or in other cases, dramatic misrepresentations, lies or handouts. Outright corruption, unconstitutionality and waste are the main part of the show, but hidden behind that stage going on in front that most Americans are watching.
    - hedora 7y ago
      An increasingly small minority is voting them in. Democrats won the popular votes for the president, house and senate (they had 56.9% in the senate, in 2018, FFS!) in 2016 and 2018, but the republicans somehow managed to get complete control of the house senate and presidency, and unconstitutionally packed the courts in 2016-2018. Now, the democrats have control of just the house, and the executive branch has decided to simply ignore the constitutional limits on its power, since, as Trump has boasted, he could shoot someone in public for no reason, and there’s still no way the senate would impeach him. Also, it is apparently legal for state legislatures to override their popular vote. If even one swing state decide to do that, democrats won’t have enough votes in the house to prevent Trump from being reappointed (despite having a vast majority there, because of the way those votes are counted). Florida, or Ohio are likely candidates. In 2000, Florida would have used this power if the courts hadn’t stepped in, and would have voted for W. After recounts, Gore won Florida. In Ohio, in 2004, the vote was decided by a ballot box that republicans illegally transported to Indiana, and then transported back for tallying. Exit polls disagreed with the tally. We need to eliminate the electoral college, and get rid of per-state representatives. In our lifetimes, demographic trends suggest that the majority of the US will be represented by just 18 senators (with 82 for the minority). One person, one vote!
      - themaninthedark 7y ago
        The problem we are talking about has existed far before Trump became president. The secret AT&T closet started during Bush, since then we have had Obama and now Trump. The Patriot Act was passed and renewed with bi-partisan support.
- antonvs 7y ago
  If what you really want is a religious ethnostate, you're going to cheer the demise of a multicultural democracy.
  - cat199 7y ago
    which is why the progressive democrats have made removing these programs such a core tenet of their platforms? this isn't partisan. perhaps skewed one way or another, but both parties seem to be quite happy with the state of domestic surveillance as a whole..
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- magduf 7y ago
  They don't see it as their country going down, they see it as "making it great again". As the other poster said here, what a very large fraction of the US really wants is a religious ethnostate, and they're very good at voting for that, so that's where we're headed.
  - geggam 7y ago
    That is why the US was created as a Constitutional Republic. To prevent the catastrophe of a pure democracy Problem is the leaders of the country are profiting from the demise. I see an "interesting" future for the next 20 years of the US
    - magduf 7y ago
      >That is why the US was created as a Constitutional Republic. To prevent the catastrophe of a pure democracy Why do people like you bring up this canard? Can you point to any pure democracies, anywhere, ever, aside from Ancient Greece? The US isn't special; every decent country (and many not-so-great ones too) now is a democratic republic of some kind, usually constitutional (UK is a notable exception here).
      - geggam 7y ago
        Because as you age you see how change is implemented. You watch the drift. Example. In my youth police were called peace officers. Their main mission was to enforce the peace at the expense of bending the law. Today law enforcement disrupts the peace to enforce the law. Society is not better off because of it. Watching presidents change what they called the nation from Republic to Democracy has also been something that happened. A republic is a nation of laws where everyone has the same rules. A democracy is simply a majority vote and currently the constitution and the laws are being marginalized. That is why folks bring up this "canard" FYI calling something constitutionally guaranteed, a canard is exactly to what I refer The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence. ARTICLE IV, SECTION 4
- scardine 7y ago
  I'm halfway "parable of the talents" by Octavia E. Butler (I'm trying to read all the novels that won a Nebula Award). I can see it happening if US keep the current trajectory.
rootusrootus 7y ago
I don't know about cheering, but let's be honest here. Assange let himself be used by the Russians, either knowingly or naively, and he willingly jumped into a hyper partisan US election. Just like some people want to put Hillary Clinton in prison, some are going to want to see Assange punished. Snowden released a lot of information that was very valuable to the citizens of the US, and that's great, but he also went well beyond that and there is a legitimate argument to be made that such behavior should be punished. He's also currently accepting the hospitality of the Russian gov't, which just adds another reason to be skeptical of his neutrality. Manning is kind of the same thing, he went far beyond releasing a controversial video showing misconduct, so some punishment was just. And the commutation by Obama was just. There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law.
- dpwm 7y ago
  > Assange let himself be used by the Russians, either knowingly or naively, and he willingly jumped into a hyper partisan US election. Believing that narrative actually requires trusting the US security services, who may or may not have something to gain from a new cold war. There are simpler explanations with just as much evidence behind them. > There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law. And that it applies to foreign citizens who have – quite sensibly – never set foot on your soil?
  - microwavecamera 7y ago
    > There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law. >And that it applies to foreign citizens who have – quite sensibly – never set foot on your soil? Of course it does. That's like saying a foreign terrorist can't be charged for an act of terrorism because they're not a U.S. citizen. Furthermore, because Assange is a foreign national, 1st Amendment protections do not apply in this situation.
    - dpwm 7y ago
      > That's like saying a foreign terrorist can't be charged for an act of terrorism because they're not a U.S. citizen. One man's might-is-right flag-waving US exceptionalism is another man's terrorism.

by dpwm 7y ago

mcv 7y ago

Swathes of the US public seem to be cheering as their own country is going down. Strange times indeed.

oreo83 7y ago
?
jolfdb 7y ago
The source of your confusion is your conflation of a criminal government with the country itself.
- codehalo 7y ago
  Somebody's voting them in.
  - jdironman 7y ago
    Then we need more power voting out.
  - wallace_f 7y ago
    Most people are voting based on emotions which are pre-occupied with issues that are at the forefront of American politics. These often are exceptionally philosophical, emotional or religious topics; or in other cases, dramatic misrepresentations, lies or handouts. Outright corruption, unconstitutionality and waste are the main part of the show, but hidden behind that stage going on in front that most Americans are watching.
  - hedora 7y ago
    An increasingly small minority is voting them in. Democrats won the popular votes for the president, house and senate (they had 56.9% in the senate, in 2018, FFS!) in 2016 and 2018, but the republicans somehow managed to get complete control of the house senate and presidency, and unconstitutionally packed the courts in 2016-2018. Now, the democrats have control of just the house, and the executive branch has decided to simply ignore the constitutional limits on its power, since, as Trump has boasted, he could shoot someone in public for no reason, and there’s still no way the senate would impeach him. Also, it is apparently legal for state legislatures to override their popular vote. If even one swing state decide to do that, democrats won’t have enough votes in the house to prevent Trump from being reappointed (despite having a vast majority there, because of the way those votes are counted). Florida, or Ohio are likely candidates. In 2000, Florida would have used this power if the courts hadn’t stepped in, and would have voted for W. After recounts, Gore won Florida. In Ohio, in 2004, the vote was decided by a ballot box that republicans illegally transported to Indiana, and then transported back for tallying. Exit polls disagreed with the tally. We need to eliminate the electoral college, and get rid of per-state representatives. In our lifetimes, demographic trends suggest that the majority of the US will be represented by just 18 senators (with 82 for the minority). One person, one vote!
    - themaninthedark 7y ago
      The problem we are talking about has existed far before Trump became president. The secret AT&T closet started during Bush, since then we have had Obama and now Trump. The Patriot Act was passed and renewed with bi-partisan support.
antonvs 7y ago
If what you really want is a religious ethnostate, you're going to cheer the demise of a multicultural democracy.
- cat199 7y ago
  which is why the progressive democrats have made removing these programs such a core tenet of their platforms? this isn't partisan. perhaps skewed one way or another, but both parties seem to be quite happy with the state of domestic surveillance as a whole..
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
magduf 7y ago
They don't see it as their country going down, they see it as "making it great again". As the other poster said here, what a very large fraction of the US really wants is a religious ethnostate, and they're very good at voting for that, so that's where we're headed.
- geggam 7y ago
  That is why the US was created as a Constitutional Republic. To prevent the catastrophe of a pure democracy Problem is the leaders of the country are profiting from the demise. I see an "interesting" future for the next 20 years of the US
  - magduf 7y ago
    >That is why the US was created as a Constitutional Republic. To prevent the catastrophe of a pure democracy Why do people like you bring up this canard? Can you point to any pure democracies, anywhere, ever, aside from Ancient Greece? The US isn't special; every decent country (and many not-so-great ones too) now is a democratic republic of some kind, usually constitutional (UK is a notable exception here).
    - geggam 7y ago
      Because as you age you see how change is implemented. You watch the drift. Example. In my youth police were called peace officers. Their main mission was to enforce the peace at the expense of bending the law. Today law enforcement disrupts the peace to enforce the law. Society is not better off because of it. Watching presidents change what they called the nation from Republic to Democracy has also been something that happened. A republic is a nation of laws where everyone has the same rules. A democracy is simply a majority vote and currently the constitution and the laws are being marginalized. That is why folks bring up this "canard" FYI calling something constitutionally guaranteed, a canard is exactly to what I refer The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence. ARTICLE IV, SECTION 4
scardine 7y ago
I'm halfway "parable of the talents" by Octavia E. Butler (I'm trying to read all the novels that won a Nebula Award). I can see it happening if US keep the current trajectory.

rootusrootus 7y ago

I don't know about cheering, but let's be honest here. Assange let himself be used by the Russians, either knowingly or naively, and he willingly jumped into a hyper partisan US election. Just like some people want to put Hillary Clinton in prison, some are going to want to see Assange punished. Snowden released a lot of information that was very valuable to the citizens of the US, and that's great, but he also went well beyond that and there is a legitimate argument to be made that such behavior should be punished. He's also currently accepting the hospitality of the Russian gov't, which just adds another reason to be skeptical of his neutrality. Manning is kind of the same thing, he went far beyond releasing a controversial video showing misconduct, so some punishment was just. And the commutation by Obama was just. There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law.

dpwm 7y ago
> Assange let himself be used by the Russians, either knowingly or naively, and he willingly jumped into a hyper partisan US election. Believing that narrative actually requires trusting the US security services, who may or may not have something to gain from a new cold war. There are simpler explanations with just as much evidence behind them. > There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law. And that it applies to foreign citizens who have – quite sensibly – never set foot on your soil?
- microwavecamera 7y ago
  > There are lots of people in the US that believe strongly in the rule of law. >And that it applies to foreign citizens who have – quite sensibly – never set foot on your soil? Of course it does. That's like saying a foreign terrorist can't be charged for an act of terrorism because they're not a U.S. citizen. Furthermore, because Assange is a foreign national, 1st Amendment protections do not apply in this situation.
  - dpwm 7y ago
    > That's like saying a foreign terrorist can't be charged for an act of terrorism because they're not a U.S. citizen. One man's might-is-right flag-waving US exceptionalism is another man's terrorism.