11 ms·

Alexis Ohanian speaks out against “always-on” work culture

231 points by petethomas 7y ago

purple-again 7y ago
Can some kind soul provide the body of the text for us poor souls or instructions for how to access the article? No luck with the web button or outline.com.
- Etheryte 7y ago
  I don't really see why it's okay to submit paywalled articles to HN to begin with. Either a) someone finds an open source for it, which the OP should've done instead or b) only a small subset of the users can actually access the content being discussed.
  - chewz 7y ago
    > I don't really see why it's okay to submit paywalled articles to HN to begin with. Why? I would probably haven't found this article if not on HN.
  - dougmwne 7y ago
    I find the paywalls on NYT and WSJ a bit bizzare to begin with, especially now that they're closing the loopholes to read an article now and then. Certainly any business has the right to charge for its content, but as newsrooms have shrunk and journalists have been retrained for the clickbait era, these articles are typically worthless fluff or outrage porn. Though I can't actually read this article, I assume that the catchy title references a breif moment from an interview, not a deep cultural analysis. I would pay for the latter, but not the former.
    - dannyw 7y ago
      I’ve never seen a NYT paywall in Australia. Maybe it’s geo specific?
    - mcv 7y ago
      > I assume that the catchy title references a breif moment from an interview, not a deep cultural analysis. That assumption is correct.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      I suspect it is a result of being afraid of cannabalising their subscription base and internal disputes between philosophies. I suspect the paywall leaks are a left hand vs right hand thing - if they make it fully accessible they get maximium click traffic but the boss gets pissed off about "giving money away". If they make it fully sealed Webspiders can't get there and this kills the traffic.
  - readingnews 7y ago
    I will just go ahead and carry on the tradition, as it was smacked onto me the last time I complained about a paywall: The FAQ ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ) states clearly that paywalls are ok. No matter how much we hate them, apparently.
  - CPLX 7y ago
    Should we limit our discussions of software to only free software, or not discuss Apple’s new laptops until they are giving them away? Or is journalism the only thing that you feel deserves this treatment?
  - a_imho 7y ago
    If the links dont work for you why not flag them?
- drubio 7y ago
  Add ?mod=rsswn to the end of WSJ urls (e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating... )
  - westmeal 7y ago
    Nice trick!
chewz 7y ago
> “All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,” because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their venture, said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting their vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on themselves to work harder than anyone else to achieve success and profitability. That psychological pressure is compounded by what he and others refer to as “hustle culture.” > “You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the most absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things like therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,” said Mr. Ohanian.
- turk73 7y ago
  They admit it but don't do anything about it. The very definition of a psychopath. I have no issue with people who are driven, mind you. The issue is that it leads to quality of life suffering for everyone in the company as expectations continue to ramp. I just don't buy into it anymore. Management where I work attempts to pressurize people and I just laugh. Yes, the "hustle" culture is right--so your boss's boss's boss can make $20M last year while you have to cut coupons.
  - ryan-allen 7y ago
    Which is, why I wonder, is a VC of (presumably?) tech companies trashing the hustle culture? If he lends some founders some money, does he want them to be home to spend time with their kids and their spouse, or is he seeking a return? I can't help but think this is just some PR for Alex. Maybe someone can prove me wrong?
    - unknownkadath 7y ago
      It also seems to imply a market opening; a VC that looks for and encourages 40 hour per week founders.
    - mbesto 7y ago
      This is basically his content marketing[0]. Whether he believes it or not, it doesn't matter, because this topic is on trend right now. He's likely taking what he believes is the most attractive option to early stage entrepreneurs right now. [0] - https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-vcs/ https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-vcs/
itamarst 7y ago
Based purely on chewz' quote, since paywall: the problem isn't just the impact on founders, it's all the employees who get screwed as a result of the founders' misguided beliefs. If the person on top works long hours, they pressure their underlings to work long hours in a whole bunch of different ways (https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-long-hours/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-lon...). See also JWZ on VCs: https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-sell-a-con/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.o... (Updated with archive.org link)
- ddebernardy 7y ago
  FYI the JWZ link redirects to http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png when HN is the referrer and you've never visited the site.
  - itamarst 7y ago
    Interesting. I switched to an archive.org link.
SolaceQuantum 7y ago
I find the effects of overwork to be quite interesting- a lack of space for self makes it impossible to perform actually life enriching behaviors such as retreats, meditations, socialization, and hobbies. This means there's simply no room for any other entertainment or enrichment beyond the most shallow/fast/addictive stuff - social media, twitter wars, the thrill of buying nice things. (EDIT: I should emphasize why it's so interesting to me because people often overwork with the justification for life enrichment, but the actual act of overworking reduces space/time for life enrichment!
- tunnuz 7y ago
  Nicely said.
- Sharlin 7y ago
  Conveniently, consuming shiny things and lowest-common-denominator mass media is what the Western society very much encourages us to do. Work, consume, repeat.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - McWobbleston 7y ago
    It's the most efficient way to extract value from us
    - walrus01 7y ago
      When I was a teenager, old people told me that my political views would grow more conservative as I got older. If anything, as I've watched growing income inequality and the further concentration of wealth among the one percent, I can better appreciate the point Karl Marx was trying to get across to people.
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        Being conservative has little to do with consumption culture.
thegranderson 7y ago
Full Text: ALWAYS-ON WORK CULTURE CREATING ‘BROKEN’ PEOPLE, SAYS REDDIT CO-FOUNDER Alexis Ohanian speaks out against toxicity of ‘hustle porn’ that glorifies ‘most absurd things’ Alexis Ohanian, venture investor and husband of tennis superstar Serena Williams, loves getting asked how he balances family life and his career as managing partner of Initialized Capital. He and Ms. Williams became first-time parents in 2017, and in the months that followed, Mr. Ohanian frequently spoke out about why it was so important for him to take time away from the Bay Area firm he co-founded to bond with their daughter. Parental leave wasn’t only a fun way to spend 16 weeks with their newborn Alexis Olympia Jr., he said at The Wall Street Journal’s Future of Everything Festival on Tuesday, but it was also a reminder of why work should never be the only metric for measuring success. “I’ve spoken out quite a bit about things like ‘hustle porn,’ and this ceremony of showing off on social [media] about how hard you’re working,” said Mr. Ohanian, who previously co-founded online discussion forum Reddit. “Y’all see it on Instagram and you certainly see it in the startup community, and it becomes really toxic.” Business men in his position are rarely asked about juggling the requirements of their roles outside of work, like in their family, he said, and that contributes to unrealistic expectations that a job can reflect the entirety of anyone’s identity as a human being. “All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,” because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their venture, said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting their vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on themselves to work harder than anyone else to achieve success and profitability. That psychological pressure is compounded by what he and others refer to as “hustle culture.” “You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the most absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things like therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,” said Mr. Ohanian. This issue isn’t limited to technology companies, he added, noting that his acquaintances in finance and other industries also promote an unhealthy attitude that encourages 12-hour work days and few breaks. “Social media has made it possible to weaponize it to the point where, if [bragging about your difficult workweek] gets hearts, you’re incentivized to keep pushing” the limits.
walrus01 7y ago
I find the idea of working more than 40 hours a week to create something ultimately optional and meaningless... Just utterly preposterous. People treat the "crunch" as if it's an epic accomplishment of world shaking importance to write a slightly better Android food delivery app, or slightly optimize video ad delivery. I have worked on networking and IT projects in immediate post-disaster relief environments, and in active combat zones, where it might be justifiable to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. But it's just laughable that some corporation expects people to do that for something which is frivolous. Look at the recent news article about the abuse of their staff involved in the development of the recent Anthem video game... https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964 https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  Yup; if you're not guaranteed of either direct rewards (paid by the hour, overtime pays extra) or indirect rewards (you're working on a product where every hour spent means a better product - this is probably where a lot of people miss the point), it's not worth it. Employers and employees both need to learn about sustainable pace. Doing 60+ work weeks will mean nothing if you end up burned out and unable to do anything at all after a few months.
- everdrive 7y ago
  Most of the tech companies these days speak in terms of "revolutionizing," or "reinventing," or "re-imagining," and it's all fluff. I don't even suspect this is strictly deceptive. I think people (and founders in particular) are starving to be meaningful and important. They need it in their lives. And so, they tend to describe their work aspirationally. Claims such "No one's ever do this before" will accompany a website that sells goods and services. People are clamoring to be important, and aren't really sure how to get it.
- h2odragon 7y ago
  I can recall only a couple of actual time critical rush projects in a career of non-profit IT work, which was filled with high stress "we've got to have this now and CHEAP" exhortations. They were not "disaster relief" important, they were "the meeting will not come off as scheduled" important. I was proud to work that hard partly because I felt no one else would do the work if I didn't, and partly because I expected I was building equity towards an early retirement where I wouldn't have to work so hard. I wound up expending my health and enriching others instead. At least I enjoyed the work as I was doing it; I can't imagine how horrible it'd be to look back on 10, 20 years spent doing something you hate and realize that you didn't even get paid.
skilled 7y ago
Actually, another way to look at it is, are you going inside work culture as a broken person? Meaning, do you have a choice to be healthy and balanced in life? And if you don't, what is standing in the way of that? If the answer is "hustle", then you ought to take responsibility rather than crying about it.
- skilled 7y ago
  Aww, the HN crowd couldn't take a pinch of salt in their sugary sweet dream.
merricksb 7y ago
Paywall bypass link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating...
caseyw 7y ago
I worked for years in a role that was "always-on". To the point it cost me more than I gained. I've lost years of my life through that experience, and only towards the end could see the toxicity of it all. I'm finally free with a healthy work life balance and can't understand what I was thinking, if I was thinking anything at all.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Congrats on the escape. Champion the idea of shedding toxic employment to others.
wastedhours 7y ago
I don't get "hustle porn" in the slightest - I want to see people who succeeded by doing the least possible. You have a private jet because you worked 18 hours a day 7 days a week for 10 years? Sacrificed evening meals with your partner and kids, missed spending time with your parents before they got old, and generally only commit to "quality time" (which is largely bullshit) for self and social care? Nah thanks pal. You're driving that Ferrari because you make something that makes money, you pay people a decent wage and give them good working conditions to take it all off your plate so you only spend a few hours a week doing the bits you enjoy? That's the sizzle right there. Telling Gary Vee to put a cake in it would be a good start.
- algaeontoast 7y ago
  Gary Vee is the anti-vaxer equivalent of "hustle culture" - you'd learn more about business listening to one of Michael Eric Dyson's unintelligible rants than listening to Gary Vee... He has no understanding of the notion that working hard is supposed to compound your productivity not always be the way you go about life...
  - crsv 7y ago
    This is the perfect description of Gary Vee.
- wildmindwriting 7y ago
  I think this is often what Gary Vee is misjudged on. I've listened to more than a few of his talks, read his books, and find his message is that you should throw your all in, if that's what you want. If you want to have your Saturdays with your kids, go do that. Matt D'Avella had an interview with Gary Vee that acknowledges this. He seems to be very much about living your own life and not subscribing to the hype. "Are you doing something you enjoy to do? Happiness and fulfillment has to become a much bigger part of the conversation than financial upside. I'm always very hurt when people think that I'm pushing hustle and too much work."[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/nhMuBEvopk8?t=298 https://youtu.be/nhMuBEvopk8?t=298
  - 7y ago
ForTheBetter 7y ago
While certainly true, statements like these fail to ignore why tech folk grind so hard-- because if they don't and someone else does then they are at an objective disadvantage. That's not to say that means they cannot or will not succeed, but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a week (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage. If your going to hustle, do it young when you don't have responsibility. Don't be the dude with a kid missing dinners and school plays. But if I'm young and want to grind to build something I'm passionate about then I don't think that is so wrong or toxic-- just don't fucking post about it on social media.
- mtberatwork 7y ago
  > ...but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a week (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage.) There really isn't a clear advantage here either since no one is achieving 100% efficiency like that week after week. [1] [1] https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-backfire-for-people-and-for-companies https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-bac...
  - Raidion 7y ago
    Efficiency isn't the metric people care about on either side of the equation though. Management only cares about results. If you work 3 hours at 100% efficiency, 5 at 75% and 3 at 50%, that's still more results than working 4 at 100% and 4 at 75%. On the other side of the equation, the worker gets to see and handle more technology with the longer hours, which make them more attractive in interviews. If you're working 50 hours of week instead of 40, even with productivity hits, you're still "gaining" a week of experience roughly every month. That means at 2 years, you're actually at almost 3 years of experience, and that pays off. Repeat this for a few more years, and the difference adds up and matters. I'm not advocating for that lifestyle at all, but there is something to be said for just having more time with code. You obviously need to have an endgame plan, as staying at one company often doesn't scale your career, but if that 2nd year dev is able to get a prime spot because of his extra "year" of experience, and repeat a few times... There is money to be made.
notacoward 7y ago
It's a tragedy of the commons, where the commons is our individual and collective mental health. Working your ass off might be an individually rational choice, but even if that's true (opinions definitely vary) the result of everybody doing it is a significantly crappier society.
TomMasz 7y ago
My last job was managing product security for a company that has customers worldwide. The first and last things every single day I did was check my email on my phone, weekends and holidays. When I got out of the job my health greatly improved to the point where I had my blood pressure medication lowered. "Always-on" is a killer.
KaiserPro 7y ago
The fundamental engine of growth in the economy is the continual increase in productivity. that is the increase of unit of work per staff head. Having staff work hard, not smart lowers productivity, and therefore profit. For example uber: IF they were a company capable of making a profit, it is because currently they have a virtually staff free monitoring and dispatch system (that is, no branch offices, no radio dispatcher, no mechanics etc.) However thats only a small part of thier overheads. The vast majority comes from paying their drivers. Adding more drivers adds cost linearly. However if they were to somehow manage to perfect driverless cars, their productivity would smash through the roof, as they can replace linear cost increases with an upfront capital cost (ie, buy loads of self driving cars instead of paying a per mile cost.) If you are working your staff 996, not only are they going to burn out, they are going to be inefficient. There are legions of studies that date back to the early 1900s that prove this. In china there is an abundance of staff, so one does not need to worry, as if you burn out 35% a year, they can always be replaced, cheaply. but you can't afford to do that if you have a limited talent pool.
dnissley 7y ago
Recently heard a good ted talk and good podcast with Andrew Taggart who is using the term "Total Work" to describe this phenomena. He leans a lot on this old german book called "Leisure: The Basis of Culture", and asks the question "Why do we work?" His answer is that work should be a means to an end, and that end is to be able to lead a life where we engage fully with love, art, philosophy, and spirituality. This seems to me to be a bit too tightly defined, but definitely made me think more intentionally about what it is I'm living for. Ted Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-Gis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-Gis Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-philosophizing-in-the-age-of-total-work/id1397139116?i=1000435020386 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-philoso...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
temp99990 7y ago
Maybe this is a bit cynical but is this not like if the CEO of Pepsi spoke out against sugar? He and his VC partner are both YC-insiders. I don’t necessarily follow his tweets as much as his partner’s but his partner tweets are what I’d call classical hustle porn tweets that he spews all the time. And YC is almost certainly the epi-center of hustle porn.
code4tee 7y ago
The “hustle porn” is also quite frequently a coverup or distraction from general failure at other parts of life. Those that are super successful in perhaps their career but have no personal life, no partner, no kids, no real existence outside of their company tend to be quite boring people. These types keep promoting themselves and their “hard work” but it seems lost on them that others aren’t really all that impressed. Those that are super impressive and truly accomplished are the ones that have successful careers but also have actual lives with families and a real life. Doing both well and not stressing out is a true accomplishment worth celebrating and promoting.
drugme 7y ago
"Always-on" can kind of sort of work out, for a couple of years -- provided all 3 of the following simple conditions are met: (1) You're getting a decent base + health insurance (2) The equity is in proportion to the sacrifice (this can be difficult to quantify; but in any case not a microscopic share of the pie); and (3) You actually have some say in (and responsibility over) the outcomes. (4) And of course you aren't throwing anyone under the bus in your family or personal life. On of the reasons our industry is so toxic is that you're expected to be "always on" even though there's not even a pretense of (2) or (3) being met -- and quite often the numbers for condition (1) are sketchy, or far worse.

231 points by petethomas 7y ago

Can some kind soul provide the body of the text for us poor souls or instructions for how to access the article? No luck with the web button or outline.com.

Etheryte 7y ago
I don't really see why it's okay to submit paywalled articles to HN to begin with. Either a) someone finds an open source for it, which the OP should've done instead or b) only a small subset of the users can actually access the content being discussed.
- chewz 7y ago
  > I don't really see why it's okay to submit paywalled articles to HN to begin with. Why? I would probably haven't found this article if not on HN.
- dougmwne 7y ago
  I find the paywalls on NYT and WSJ a bit bizzare to begin with, especially now that they're closing the loopholes to read an article now and then. Certainly any business has the right to charge for its content, but as newsrooms have shrunk and journalists have been retrained for the clickbait era, these articles are typically worthless fluff or outrage porn. Though I can't actually read this article, I assume that the catchy title references a breif moment from an interview, not a deep cultural analysis. I would pay for the latter, but not the former.
  - dannyw 7y ago
    I’ve never seen a NYT paywall in Australia. Maybe it’s geo specific?
  - mcv 7y ago
    > I assume that the catchy title references a breif moment from an interview, not a deep cultural analysis. That assumption is correct.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    I suspect it is a result of being afraid of cannabalising their subscription base and internal disputes between philosophies. I suspect the paywall leaks are a left hand vs right hand thing - if they make it fully accessible they get maximium click traffic but the boss gets pissed off about "giving money away". If they make it fully sealed Webspiders can't get there and this kills the traffic.
- readingnews 7y ago
  I will just go ahead and carry on the tradition, as it was smacked onto me the last time I complained about a paywall: The FAQ ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ) states clearly that paywalls are ok. No matter how much we hate them, apparently.
- CPLX 7y ago
  Should we limit our discussions of software to only free software, or not discuss Apple’s new laptops until they are giving them away? Or is journalism the only thing that you feel deserves this treatment?
- a_imho 7y ago
  If the links dont work for you why not flag them?
drubio 7y ago
Add ?mod=rsswn to the end of WSJ urls (e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating... )
- westmeal 7y ago
  Nice trick!

chewz 7y ago

> “All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,” because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their venture, said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting their vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on themselves to work harder than anyone else to achieve success and profitability. That psychological pressure is compounded by what he and others refer to as “hustle culture.” > “You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the most absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things like therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,” said Mr. Ohanian.

turk73 7y ago
They admit it but don't do anything about it. The very definition of a psychopath. I have no issue with people who are driven, mind you. The issue is that it leads to quality of life suffering for everyone in the company as expectations continue to ramp. I just don't buy into it anymore. Management where I work attempts to pressurize people and I just laugh. Yes, the "hustle" culture is right--so your boss's boss's boss can make $20M last year while you have to cut coupons.
- ryan-allen 7y ago
  Which is, why I wonder, is a VC of (presumably?) tech companies trashing the hustle culture? If he lends some founders some money, does he want them to be home to spend time with their kids and their spouse, or is he seeking a return? I can't help but think this is just some PR for Alex. Maybe someone can prove me wrong?
  - unknownkadath 7y ago
    It also seems to imply a market opening; a VC that looks for and encourages 40 hour per week founders.
  - mbesto 7y ago
    This is basically his content marketing[0]. Whether he believes it or not, it doesn't matter, because this topic is on trend right now. He's likely taking what he believes is the most attractive option to early stage entrepreneurs right now. [0] - https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-vcs/ https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-vcs/

itamarst 7y ago

Based purely on chewz' quote, since paywall: the problem isn't just the impact on founders, it's all the employees who get screwed as a result of the founders' misguided beliefs. If the person on top works long hours, they pressure their underlings to work long hours in a whole bunch of different ways (https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-long-hours/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-lon...). See also JWZ on VCs: https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-sell-a-con/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.o... (Updated with archive.org link)

ddebernardy 7y ago
FYI the JWZ link redirects to http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png when HN is the referrer and you've never visited the site.
- itamarst 7y ago
  Interesting. I switched to an archive.org link.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago

I find the effects of overwork to be quite interesting- a lack of space for self makes it impossible to perform actually life enriching behaviors such as retreats, meditations, socialization, and hobbies. This means there's simply no room for any other entertainment or enrichment beyond the most shallow/fast/addictive stuff - social media, twitter wars, the thrill of buying nice things. (EDIT: I should emphasize why it's so interesting to me because people often overwork with the justification for life enrichment, but the actual act of overworking reduces space/time for life enrichment!

tunnuz 7y ago
Nicely said.
Sharlin 7y ago
Conveniently, consuming shiny things and lowest-common-denominator mass media is what the Western society very much encourages us to do. Work, consume, repeat.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- McWobbleston 7y ago
  It's the most efficient way to extract value from us
  - walrus01 7y ago
    When I was a teenager, old people told me that my political views would grow more conservative as I got older. If anything, as I've watched growing income inequality and the further concentration of wealth among the one percent, I can better appreciate the point Karl Marx was trying to get across to people.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      Being conservative has little to do with consumption culture.

thegranderson 7y ago

Full Text: ALWAYS-ON WORK CULTURE CREATING ‘BROKEN’ PEOPLE, SAYS REDDIT CO-FOUNDER Alexis Ohanian speaks out against toxicity of ‘hustle porn’ that glorifies ‘most absurd things’ Alexis Ohanian, venture investor and husband of tennis superstar Serena Williams, loves getting asked how he balances family life and his career as managing partner of Initialized Capital. He and Ms. Williams became first-time parents in 2017, and in the months that followed, Mr. Ohanian frequently spoke out about why it was so important for him to take time away from the Bay Area firm he co-founded to bond with their daughter. Parental leave wasn’t only a fun way to spend 16 weeks with their newborn Alexis Olympia Jr., he said at The Wall Street Journal’s Future of Everything Festival on Tuesday, but it was also a reminder of why work should never be the only metric for measuring success. “I’ve spoken out quite a bit about things like ‘hustle porn,’ and this ceremony of showing off on social [media] about how hard you’re working,” said Mr. Ohanian, who previously co-founded online discussion forum Reddit. “Y’all see it on Instagram and you certainly see it in the startup community, and it becomes really toxic.” Business men in his position are rarely asked about juggling the requirements of their roles outside of work, like in their family, he said, and that contributes to unrealistic expectations that a job can reflect the entirety of anyone’s identity as a human being. “All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,” because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their venture, said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting their vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on themselves to work harder than anyone else to achieve success and profitability. That psychological pressure is compounded by what he and others refer to as “hustle culture.” “You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the most absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things like therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,” said Mr. Ohanian. This issue isn’t limited to technology companies, he added, noting that his acquaintances in finance and other industries also promote an unhealthy attitude that encourages 12-hour work days and few breaks. “Social media has made it possible to weaponize it to the point where, if [bragging about your difficult workweek] gets hearts, you’re incentivized to keep pushing” the limits.

walrus01 7y ago

I find the idea of working more than 40 hours a week to create something ultimately optional and meaningless... Just utterly preposterous. People treat the "crunch" as if it's an epic accomplishment of world shaking importance to write a slightly better Android food delivery app, or slightly optimize video ad delivery. I have worked on networking and IT projects in immediate post-disaster relief environments, and in active combat zones, where it might be justifiable to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. But it's just laughable that some corporation expects people to do that for something which is frivolous. Look at the recent news article about the abuse of their staff involved in the development of the recent Anthem video game... https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964 https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Yup; if you're not guaranteed of either direct rewards (paid by the hour, overtime pays extra) or indirect rewards (you're working on a product where every hour spent means a better product - this is probably where a lot of people miss the point), it's not worth it. Employers and employees both need to learn about sustainable pace. Doing 60+ work weeks will mean nothing if you end up burned out and unable to do anything at all after a few months.
everdrive 7y ago
Most of the tech companies these days speak in terms of "revolutionizing," or "reinventing," or "re-imagining," and it's all fluff. I don't even suspect this is strictly deceptive. I think people (and founders in particular) are starving to be meaningful and important. They need it in their lives. And so, they tend to describe their work aspirationally. Claims such "No one's ever do this before" will accompany a website that sells goods and services. People are clamoring to be important, and aren't really sure how to get it.
h2odragon 7y ago
I can recall only a couple of actual time critical rush projects in a career of non-profit IT work, which was filled with high stress "we've got to have this now and CHEAP" exhortations. They were not "disaster relief" important, they were "the meeting will not come off as scheduled" important. I was proud to work that hard partly because I felt no one else would do the work if I didn't, and partly because I expected I was building equity towards an early retirement where I wouldn't have to work so hard. I wound up expending my health and enriching others instead. At least I enjoyed the work as I was doing it; I can't imagine how horrible it'd be to look back on 10, 20 years spent doing something you hate and realize that you didn't even get paid.

skilled 7y ago

Actually, another way to look at it is, are you going inside work culture as a broken person? Meaning, do you have a choice to be healthy and balanced in life? And if you don't, what is standing in the way of that? If the answer is "hustle", then you ought to take responsibility rather than crying about it.

skilled 7y ago
Aww, the HN crowd couldn't take a pinch of salt in their sugary sweet dream.

merricksb 7y ago

Paywall bypass link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating...

caseyw 7y ago

I worked for years in a role that was "always-on". To the point it cost me more than I gained. I've lost years of my life through that experience, and only towards the end could see the toxicity of it all. I'm finally free with a healthy work life balance and can't understand what I was thinking, if I was thinking anything at all.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Congrats on the escape. Champion the idea of shedding toxic employment to others.

wastedhours 7y ago

I don't get "hustle porn" in the slightest - I want to see people who succeeded by doing the least possible. You have a private jet because you worked 18 hours a day 7 days a week for 10 years? Sacrificed evening meals with your partner and kids, missed spending time with your parents before they got old, and generally only commit to "quality time" (which is largely bullshit) for self and social care? Nah thanks pal. You're driving that Ferrari because you make something that makes money, you pay people a decent wage and give them good working conditions to take it all off your plate so you only spend a few hours a week doing the bits you enjoy? That's the sizzle right there. Telling Gary Vee to put a cake in it would be a good start.

algaeontoast 7y ago
Gary Vee is the anti-vaxer equivalent of "hustle culture" - you'd learn more about business listening to one of Michael Eric Dyson's unintelligible rants than listening to Gary Vee... He has no understanding of the notion that working hard is supposed to compound your productivity not always be the way you go about life...
- crsv 7y ago
  This is the perfect description of Gary Vee.
wildmindwriting 7y ago
I think this is often what Gary Vee is misjudged on. I've listened to more than a few of his talks, read his books, and find his message is that you should throw your all in, if that's what you want. If you want to have your Saturdays with your kids, go do that. Matt D'Avella had an interview with Gary Vee that acknowledges this. He seems to be very much about living your own life and not subscribing to the hype. "Are you doing something you enjoy to do? Happiness and fulfillment has to become a much bigger part of the conversation than financial upside. I'm always very hurt when people think that I'm pushing hustle and too much work."[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/nhMuBEvopk8?t=298 https://youtu.be/nhMuBEvopk8?t=298
- 7y ago

ForTheBetter 7y ago

While certainly true, statements like these fail to ignore why tech folk grind so hard-- because if they don't and someone else does then they are at an objective disadvantage. That's not to say that means they cannot or will not succeed, but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a week (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage. If your going to hustle, do it young when you don't have responsibility. Don't be the dude with a kid missing dinners and school plays. But if I'm young and want to grind to build something I'm passionate about then I don't think that is so wrong or toxic-- just don't fucking post about it on social media.

mtberatwork 7y ago
> ...but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a week (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage.) There really isn't a clear advantage here either since no one is achieving 100% efficiency like that week after week. [1] [1] https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-backfire-for-people-and-for-companies https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-bac...
- Raidion 7y ago
  Efficiency isn't the metric people care about on either side of the equation though. Management only cares about results. If you work 3 hours at 100% efficiency, 5 at 75% and 3 at 50%, that's still more results than working 4 at 100% and 4 at 75%. On the other side of the equation, the worker gets to see and handle more technology with the longer hours, which make them more attractive in interviews. If you're working 50 hours of week instead of 40, even with productivity hits, you're still "gaining" a week of experience roughly every month. That means at 2 years, you're actually at almost 3 years of experience, and that pays off. Repeat this for a few more years, and the difference adds up and matters. I'm not advocating for that lifestyle at all, but there is something to be said for just having more time with code. You obviously need to have an endgame plan, as staying at one company often doesn't scale your career, but if that 2nd year dev is able to get a prime spot because of his extra "year" of experience, and repeat a few times... There is money to be made.

notacoward 7y ago

It's a tragedy of the commons, where the commons is our individual and collective mental health. Working your ass off might be an individually rational choice, but even if that's true (opinions definitely vary) the result of everybody doing it is a significantly crappier society.

TomMasz 7y ago

My last job was managing product security for a company that has customers worldwide. The first and last things every single day I did was check my email on my phone, weekends and holidays. When I got out of the job my health greatly improved to the point where I had my blood pressure medication lowered. "Always-on" is a killer.

KaiserPro 7y ago

The fundamental engine of growth in the economy is the continual increase in productivity. that is the increase of unit of work per staff head. Having staff work hard, not smart lowers productivity, and therefore profit. For example uber: IF they were a company capable of making a profit, it is because currently they have a virtually staff free monitoring and dispatch system (that is, no branch offices, no radio dispatcher, no mechanics etc.) However thats only a small part of thier overheads. The vast majority comes from paying their drivers. Adding more drivers adds cost linearly. However if they were to somehow manage to perfect driverless cars, their productivity would smash through the roof, as they can replace linear cost increases with an upfront capital cost (ie, buy loads of self driving cars instead of paying a per mile cost.) If you are working your staff 996, not only are they going to burn out, they are going to be inefficient. There are legions of studies that date back to the early 1900s that prove this. In china there is an abundance of staff, so one does not need to worry, as if you burn out 35% a year, they can always be replaced, cheaply. but you can't afford to do that if you have a limited talent pool.

dnissley 7y ago

Recently heard a good ted talk and good podcast with Andrew Taggart who is using the term "Total Work" to describe this phenomena. He leans a lot on this old german book called "Leisure: The Basis of Culture", and asks the question "Why do we work?" His answer is that work should be a means to an end, and that end is to be able to lead a life where we engage fully with love, art, philosophy, and spirituality. This seems to me to be a bit too tightly defined, but definitely made me think more intentionally about what it is I'm living for. Ted Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-Gis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-Gis Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-philosophizing-in-the-age-of-total-work/id1397139116?i=1000435020386 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-philoso...

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temp99990 7y ago

Maybe this is a bit cynical but is this not like if the CEO of Pepsi spoke out against sugar? He and his VC partner are both YC-insiders. I don’t necessarily follow his tweets as much as his partner’s but his partner tweets are what I’d call classical hustle porn tweets that he spews all the time. And YC is almost certainly the epi-center of hustle porn.

code4tee 7y ago

The “hustle porn” is also quite frequently a coverup or distraction from general failure at other parts of life. Those that are super successful in perhaps their career but have no personal life, no partner, no kids, no real existence outside of their company tend to be quite boring people. These types keep promoting themselves and their “hard work” but it seems lost on them that others aren’t really all that impressed. Those that are super impressive and truly accomplished are the ones that have successful careers but also have actual lives with families and a real life. Doing both well and not stressing out is a true accomplishment worth celebrating and promoting.

drugme 7y ago

"Always-on" can kind of sort of work out, for a couple of years -- provided all 3 of the following simple conditions are met: (1) You're getting a decent base + health insurance (2) The equity is in proportion to the sacrifice (this can be difficult to quantify; but in any case not a microscopic share of the pie); and (3) You actually have some say in (and responsibility over) the outcomes. (4) And of course you aren't throwing anyone under the bus in your family or personal life. On of the reasons our industry is so toxic is that you're expected to be "always on" even though there's not even a pretense of (2) or (3) being met -- and quite often the numbers for condition (1) are sketchy, or far worse.