6 ms·

What are the environmental and energy costs of producing and replacing batteries? How abundant are the resources required?

chii 7y ago
I would imagine that batteries' total cost of production over its lifetime is lower than the total cost of production of the equivalent energy in petroleum
zizee 7y ago
> How abundant are the resources required? Lithium is very abundant, and I have read that it is easily recycled. Not sure about the other inputs to the mix.
- sjwright 7y ago
  Worn lithium batteries are still highly valuable for grid storage because at even half their original capacity, they still have much better specifications than cheaper batteries like lead acid. Expect to see old EV cells redeployed into large scale grid storage rather than recycled for their raw materials.
  - yholio 7y ago
    Let's assume used car batteries can extend their lives 2x as grid storage - dubious, since the probability of cascading failure increases exponentially after some point. Even then, it doesn't mean they won't get recycled close to 100%, just that you will have a rolling lithium stock twice as big. At some future point, they will still be removed from grid storage and recycled for raw materials.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      I suspect within 20 years, the technology for automated recycling of standard lithium cells (e.g. 18650) will be quite advanced. The question is whether it will be more cost effective (or more carbon effective) than to continue using virgin materials. Lithium is abundant, after all.
      - yholio 7y ago
        We can't answer that question on economics, but surely one of the two will happen, either mass recycling or lithium abundance. We won't get to the point of "running out".
        sjwright 7y ago
        There was supposed to be mass recycling of glass and plastic, but we're not close to running out of the raw virgin materials for that stuff. The question is going to be whether lithium batteries are going to be more like aluminium (recycling is cheaper and better for environment) or more like plastics (recycling is more expensive and more carbon intensive).
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I don't think that will happen. Companies don't want to connect a hundred batteries of dubious quality to build grid storage. Recycling works so well that building new batteries is far more profitable.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      > Companies don't want to connect a hundred batteries of dubious quality I'm not suggesting companies are going to start making grid storage out of random cells. I'm suggesting that they will take EV batteries with precisely known origins and integrate them into grid storage because it will be so cost effective. When the supply of old battery packs becomes a seriously meaningful number (in 5—15 years) this will be a big issue. > Recycling works so well Does it? I have read varying reports on the cost effectiveness of recycling these batteries. Remember, they've only lost N% of their inherent value. I doubt it is economically feasible to recycle and re-manufacture lithium batteries to merely double their capacity. Remember, only a fraction of the battery material will be recyclable and if that fraction is less than N% then you've failed economically before you've spent the first dollar.
yholio 7y ago
1 Billion cars require about 20% of the known reserves of lithium and recycling can be done with low losses. New types of batteries are developed that use less lithium or other materials. At current prices and technology, the raw material price for lithium carbonate is around $600 per car, (60Kg at about $10 per Kg) and that price can give you an idea of the environmental impact, probably on par with the 1 - 1.5 tonnes of steel required to build the car and costing similarly. Of course, "environmental impact" doesn't really mean anything unless you put it in perspective. We could talk about CO2 emissions during mining and refining - and we could reduce that to near zero by using electric mining equipment and clean energy. We could talk about the impact mining companies have on some beautiful South American salty desert, and I really have no answer there because it's all relative to how you value desert landscapes compared to urban mobility. Some people will surely claim it's unacceptable and we should all switch to bikes.
- imtringued 7y ago
  I bet some people would complain about the environmental impact of wooden bicycles because they use nails made out of steel which was recycled from old bikes.
- singularity2001 7y ago
  You just answered 3 questions I had pending in my head, love HN!
- singularity2001 7y ago
  >> 20% of the known reserves how many of the lithium reserves are already being used?

chii 7y ago

I would imagine that batteries' total cost of production over its lifetime is lower than the total cost of production of the equivalent energy in petroleum

zizee 7y ago

> How abundant are the resources required? Lithium is very abundant, and I have read that it is easily recycled. Not sure about the other inputs to the mix.

sjwright 7y ago
Worn lithium batteries are still highly valuable for grid storage because at even half their original capacity, they still have much better specifications than cheaper batteries like lead acid. Expect to see old EV cells redeployed into large scale grid storage rather than recycled for their raw materials.
- yholio 7y ago
  Let's assume used car batteries can extend their lives 2x as grid storage - dubious, since the probability of cascading failure increases exponentially after some point. Even then, it doesn't mean they won't get recycled close to 100%, just that you will have a rolling lithium stock twice as big. At some future point, they will still be removed from grid storage and recycled for raw materials.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    I suspect within 20 years, the technology for automated recycling of standard lithium cells (e.g. 18650) will be quite advanced. The question is whether it will be more cost effective (or more carbon effective) than to continue using virgin materials. Lithium is abundant, after all.
    - yholio 7y ago
      We can't answer that question on economics, but surely one of the two will happen, either mass recycling or lithium abundance. We won't get to the point of "running out".
      - sjwright 7y ago
        There was supposed to be mass recycling of glass and plastic, but we're not close to running out of the raw virgin materials for that stuff. The question is going to be whether lithium batteries are going to be more like aluminium (recycling is cheaper and better for environment) or more like plastics (recycling is more expensive and more carbon intensive).
- imtringued 7y ago
  I don't think that will happen. Companies don't want to connect a hundred batteries of dubious quality to build grid storage. Recycling works so well that building new batteries is far more profitable.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    > Companies don't want to connect a hundred batteries of dubious quality I'm not suggesting companies are going to start making grid storage out of random cells. I'm suggesting that they will take EV batteries with precisely known origins and integrate them into grid storage because it will be so cost effective. When the supply of old battery packs becomes a seriously meaningful number (in 5—15 years) this will be a big issue. > Recycling works so well Does it? I have read varying reports on the cost effectiveness of recycling these batteries. Remember, they've only lost N% of their inherent value. I doubt it is economically feasible to recycle and re-manufacture lithium batteries to merely double their capacity. Remember, only a fraction of the battery material will be recyclable and if that fraction is less than N% then you've failed economically before you've spent the first dollar.

yholio 7y ago

1 Billion cars require about 20% of the known reserves of lithium and recycling can be done with low losses. New types of batteries are developed that use less lithium or other materials. At current prices and technology, the raw material price for lithium carbonate is around $600 per car, (60Kg at about $10 per Kg) and that price can give you an idea of the environmental impact, probably on par with the 1 - 1.5 tonnes of steel required to build the car and costing similarly. Of course, "environmental impact" doesn't really mean anything unless you put it in perspective. We could talk about CO2 emissions during mining and refining - and we could reduce that to near zero by using electric mining equipment and clean energy. We could talk about the impact mining companies have on some beautiful South American salty desert, and I really have no answer there because it's all relative to how you value desert landscapes compared to urban mobility. Some people will surely claim it's unacceptable and we should all switch to bikes.

imtringued 7y ago
I bet some people would complain about the environmental impact of wooden bicycles because they use nails made out of steel which was recycled from old bikes.
singularity2001 7y ago
You just answered 3 questions I had pending in my head, love HN!
singularity2001 7y ago
>> 20% of the known reserves how many of the lithium reserves are already being used?