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Show HN: 30 Hour Jobs – a job board for shorter work weeks

558 points by nbrempel 7y ago

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
As someone approaching middles ages with a family to take care of, this is something I really appreciate and have bookmarked. I hope it takes off and does well.
gschier 7y ago
So nice to see more and more companies focusing on sustainable working hours. I'm curious how you go about finding these companies to write about. Have you already heard of them? Do they reach out? Do you have some special search terms to find them?
- nbrempel 7y ago
  At the moment I spend time researching companies and other related media myself. https://keyvalues.io https://keyvalues.io has been a great resource! There are some readers of the newsletter that have shared their own employer’s work/life balance philosophies and open positions too which has been great.
akozak 7y ago
Number of hours still seems like the wrong unit of measurement to me. Shouldn't companies care more about productivity?
- cl0ckt0wer 7y ago
  And what's a good productivity metric?
  - eclecticsceptic 7y ago
    Widgets created
    - omgHNkarma 7y ago
      Lives wasted.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
  - akozak 7y ago
    That'd be very job-specific. It's probably misguided to aim for highly quantitative measurements. If productivity is measured as output per input, you have a lot of flexibility in how to define the relevant output - e.g. hitting well-defined product goals or milestones (versus e.g. lines of code, which seems wrong).
  - pastor_elm 7y ago
    commits per day
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  If I am still productive at 60 hours and I am being paid a salary, then why not work me 60 hours? Employers care about getting things done, employees care about how their time is spent. Employers need (~)happy employees. I think hours is the right measurement here. Perhaps the issue is exempt employees? I don't see why I shouldn't be paid hourly.
  - souprock 7y ago
    Yep. My "salary" is really just my hourly rate times the number of hours in the year if I work 40-hour weeks. I can get 50% more pay if I work 60-hour weeks.
- itamarst 7y ago
  A rational company would, but in practice lots of companies either don't know how to measure productivity, or they are confused enough to believe that long hours will result in more output. So as an employee you want to ensure you have a hard limit on how many hours you're expected to work (40 for regular jobs, or as in this case, less than that).
- mywittyname 7y ago
  They care about productivity, but that's more difficult to measure directly, so they need some proxy metric for it. Hours worked seems like a reasonable metric that can be applied to the broader workforce.
  - akozak 7y ago
    Right I get why - but it's crazy to think that the vast majority of companies give up measuring the thing that everyone knows matters, especially when gearing your incentives around it should be better for everyone. (except low productivity workers I guess?)
    - matwood 7y ago
      Can you even define productivity? On the surface it appears as easy as getting work done, which if only a single person is on the team that may be enough. But once you add a group of people together, mapping a teams productivity to a single metric that can be applied to each individual becomes much harder if not impossible. Basketball has had this problem for a long time. The plus/minus metric was invented as an attempt to address all the things players do while on the floor, but do not directly relate to an easy to capture metric. It also tries to address players who put their own personal productivity over that of the team.
- burntoutcase 7y ago
  It's easy to measure workers by how many hours their ass is in their seat per day, so that's what gets measured and that's how we're judged. I'm tempted to say I'd rather be paid per bug/feature, with the pay rate increasing based on the complexity of the bug/feature, so that when I think I have enough money I can say no to additional work without repercussions -- but workers in other industries organized against [piece work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work) for a reason.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Per bug you say? I'm gonna write me a new minivan this afternoon! http://blog.klocwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dilbert-minivan-small.png http://blog.klocwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dilbert-...
- nbrempel 7y ago
  I agree - google/check out something called the "Results Only Work Environment" or "ROWE" it's a great framework for this.
pmiller2 7y ago
I’m surprised there’s a listing based in San Francisco. I’m not surprised many of them are remote.
gregkerzhner 7y ago
The thoughtbot jobs say they are 40 hour a week jobs in the description.
- pastor_elm 7y ago
  >"30 Hour Jobs is a job board for job seekers and employers who believe that shorter workweeks can lead to increased productivity and higher job satisfaction." Doesn't mean you actually have to offer only 30 hrs.
  - somebodythere 7y ago
    Does kind of defeat the purpose though.
- antonkm 7y ago
  Officially my employee works 40 hours because of the benefits if he were to need support from the government (ie parental leave, sickness leading to not being able to work). Off the record he does 30 hour weeks as I believe he will stay happy and more productive that way. I also pay full for gym membership and other stuff he might need. Might be the same case here?
- nbrempel 7y ago
  "30 Hour Jobs" is the title but the site is intended to capture all sorts of working environments that embrace reduced working hours or flexible work in some capacity. You can read more about thoughtbot in issue #2: https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632dbe&id=52d13af55d https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632d...
- ElmUser1022 7y ago
  Here's one - https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e896199a41f https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e8...
itamarst 7y ago
If you want a shorter workweek you should definitely sign up for the 30 Hour Jobs list (https://30hourjobs.com/ https://30hourjobs.com/), but—keep in mind there just aren't that many companies that have advertised positions that qualify. Which doesn't mean you should give up. What you can do as a programmer is _negotiate_ a shorter workweek. I've done it at multiple jobs, personally. Here's one programmer I talked who has been working 4 day a week for 15 years: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer... And if you want to do it yourself, the easiest place to do it is at your current job: https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-way/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-... (And for those who will chime in explaining how no company will ever agree to this, here are some more examples of people who have done it: https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/05/09/part-time-software-developer/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/05/09/part-time-software-d...)
- UglyToad 7y ago
  I actually tried this at my last job, the idea was to start swapping raises for time since I value my time and life far more than the diminishing returns from more (fairly but) heavily taxed raises but the startup I was at was incredibly zealous about long hours so I left. In this new job I'm hoping to build up a negotiating position where this will be possible again, this time I think the company culture might support it. So it very much depends on the company and you need to cement your value before you can try it so it's a high risk strategy.
  - itamarst 7y ago
    This won't work at a company that inherently values long hours, yes. And it's much easier at a job you've been at for a while, yes, because then you're much more valuable in a whole bunch of ways. It is doable at new jobs, but that is much harder the first time around. So you have the right plan: 1. Get a job at company that isn't obsessed with long hours. 2. Stick around for a year so you're extra-valuable. 3. Negotiate shorter workweek. You will then have easier time negotiating at later jobs, especially if you don't quit ("thanks for the offer, I'd love to come work for you. however, at current job I work 4 days a week... do you think you could match that?")
philshem 7y ago
Self-promotion, but I wrote about my search for part-time work in a full-time world: https://smalldata.dev/posts/pay-me-less/ https://smalldata.dev/posts/pay-me-less/
- itamarst 7y ago
  What you're doing (only mentioning you want part-time after you get offer) is a good first step. More suggestions: 1. You're underselling yourself in this page, so you might be doing that in your interviews too. E.g. "SALE! For a limited time only - 40% off!" Yes, it's a joke, but you don't want to make jokes about how you're cheap when you're looking for a job. 2. Let's say you talk to company A, they give you offer for 100% time, you say "can I have 60%?" and they say "no". Don't walk away. Instead, say "let me think about that for a week or two." Now, when the next week you get offer from company B, you can say "I have an offer from another company, but I like you more... maybe we can work something out. How about 60%?" Having that extra offer makes you seem more valuable. 3. Don't give up. Sometime this takes a while, and if you treat this as something you're practicing, every interview you do you will help you improve. (I also wrote a book about negotiating a 3-day weekend; 60% is harder, but it's the same basic advice: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/ https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/)
  - gregkerzhner 7y ago
    6 years ago (pretty early in my career) I was working for a small consulting company in San Fransisco and negotiated a 4 day workweek for a paycut (as well as going remote). The schedule was awesome, but I did see one big downside - you inherently start falling behind the full time employees. Everyone else is working full time, so they tend to accomplish more than you. Also, you end up missing out on important meetings that will inevitably happen on your day off. Over time, when important projects came up, they would not be given to me since I would deliver them slower and also sometimes didn't have background on them since I missed meetings where they were discussed. Eventually I quit out of boredom and career stagnation. I am curious if you experienced any of these things, how you handled them, or how you managed to avoid them. Now, I find that the model that works better for me is to work full time, but take big (many month) breaks between projects. I would still love to work 4 days a week though, just didn't work out for me in practice.
Sweetness 7y ago
I really hope this picks up and I'll keep a close eye on this job board for sure. Great idea!
lixtra 7y ago
I renegotiated my job down to 4 days taking a 20% salary cut (a bit less because of progressive taxes). I’m a bit flexible, sometimes working 5 days a week and then 3. This is a win-win for me and my employer because in dire times I can sometimes work 125%. On the downside it feels I do about the same amount of work as I was doing when I worked 100%. Just less slack. But then I’m well paid for my 80% (after some raises).
- rabidrat 7y ago
  I had a similar situation and also felt like I was getting the short end of the stick sometimes; I was working harder during those 4 days than I was when I was working 5 days. But 3-day weekends every week are so amazing. It's like taking a 20% paycut to change an hour-long commute into a 10-minute commute (which, 2x/day and 5x/week, would be the equivalent time advantage). which is also definitely worth it.
- GordonS 7y ago
  I did the same thing around 2 years ago, going from 5x 7.5h days to 4x 7.5h days, taking a 20% pay cut in the process. The extra family and side-project time I get has been well worth it. I honestly don't feel like I'm any less productive, my employer is getting a pretty good deal!
- Rapzid 7y ago
  I find it odd people are willing to take such a huge pay cut. A lot are probably working more hours each day, and in any case could have negotiated 4 days with zero pay cut. There is a case to be made that the week wouldn't be 20% less productive, and not quitting for a job with your preferred schedule is a win for the employer...
nbrempel 7y ago
Hey everyone, I created this newsletter and job board because I’ve noticed a trend in companies measuring employee output with results instead of hours worked. I strongly believe that overwork is a problem in society right now. I’m hoping to bolster the community of people that share this belief and to help solve this problem. I should also clarify that 30 Hour Jobs is the title here but I would like to capture companies of all sorts that support a flexible work week or simply embrace work/life balance and/or reduced hours in some way.
- langitbiru 7y ago
  You stole my idea. :) Anyway, maybe you should put interviews of people who made it successfully. Surely there are some people who work 20-30 hours per week in this world and make some good money.
  - nbrempel 7y ago
    That's a great idea, thanks! :)
    - coderholic 7y ago
      We have 2 engineers at IPinfo.io that have ~30 hour jobs, and I'm sure they'd be interested in talking. Email me at ben@ipinfo.io and I can out you in touch. We're also open to hiring more people with similar hours!
      - nbrempel 7y ago
        Thanks Ben! I'll shoot you an email. Please also don't hesitate to put up your openings on the job board :) https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/submit/job https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/submit/job
      - danr4 7y ago
        Hey I think I'm one of them! I've actually worked 30h weeks for the past 2.5 years. It's amazing, i'll be happy to talk about it.
johngalt 7y ago
Interesting, but I don't think it is as easily cracked as simply creating a 30hr job board. Certainly there are people who want to work 30hrs because on balance they will be more productive per hour. Perhaps even enough to offset the overall reduction in work hours. However, there are also people who simply want to do less work. Being the job board that collects applicants who's primary variable is minimizing hours worked is not a super positive signal. From the employer perspective many of the most important and high value jobs are more likely to be perceived as 50hr/week jobs rather than 30hr/week jobs. Not to mention that 30hrs is a common break point between fulltime and part time, with the associated legal differences in benefits and such. Sadly a 50hr job board might be vastly more successful.
- itamarst 7y ago
  "Minimizing hours worked" is a great positive sign. You hire a programmer to solve problems (or better yet, identify and solve problems), not to sit on their butt for the maximum number of hours. There's always a limited amount of resources (time, money, etc), regardless of how many hours are worked. So someone whose goal is minimizing hours worked will tend to come up with much better solutions than someone whose only solution is to work longer hours. Because instead of saying "I'll just work longer!" they'll actively try to come up with a fundamentally more efficient solution. (Long version: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/02/11/working-long-hours/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/02/11/working-long-hours/)
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > "Minimizing hours worked" is a great positive sign. You hire a programmer to solve problems (or better yet, identify and solve problems), not to sit on their butt for the maximum number of hours. That assumes the client is paying by the problem and not by the other. Sadly, while there is project work, every place I've worked has also had a huge emphasis on billable hours.
    - itamarst 7y ago
      Yeah, billable hours is bad (for everyone). Jonathan Stark talks about this a lot: https://jonathanstark.com/ https://jonathanstark.com/ Lots of programming jobs aren't tied to that, though.
kulix425 7y ago
lol very typical millenial thinking: we're actually more productive if we work a lot less... no you're just lazy
excelleme 7y ago
I know everyone wants to judge productivity instead of hours per week. But, I feel that 40 hours per week is a reasonable amount to request and that MOST (not all) employees are better managed by an hour standard instead of a productivity standard (which is hard to measure anyways). All of my employees work from home and at first I was all about judging by productivity, but then I realized it was being abused for the most part and that if I set rules for timings and hours worked, it would be simpler and easier, at least for now.
- antonkm 7y ago
  Abused how?
  - option_greek 7y ago
    The productivity bar keeps going up. People end up doing work while at home etc to keep up.
    - anticensor 7y ago
      Could you not standardise productivity units?
    - nwsm 7y ago
      I don't think that's what OP meant. OP was the one setting the productivity bar so I took it to mean employees were abusing it in whatever way.
- wry_discontent 7y ago
  > I feel that 40 hours per week is a reasonable amount I disagree. I want to work less and live more.
  - xfitm3 7y ago
    I'm genuinely curious why anyone would think differently. Life is not work - get out and live a little.
westoque 7y ago
I for one don't agree about hours in general, be it 30 hours or 40 hours per week. I like to think in goals, do we have to finish X this quarter? Break down the task into segments, and break it down more into weekly sprints. You can then estimate what tasks can be done for the week without taking into account hours worked. The only caveat is you need an experienced engineer/product that knows the complexity of the feature and/or codebase. We've found this has let to happier employees since the work is variable with some weeks being heavy work, and some light so there's a good balance of stress. You are also able to manage your own time so if you work better early morning or late at night, you can do it as long as you're productive. This also opens up more opportunities for you to use your "regular" 9-5 time to workout or go places. For example, you'd be surprised on how nice it is to go shopping in the mall on a wed at 1pm or watch a movie mon at 10am.
- phil248 7y ago
  Many people strongly prefer a predictable work week (be it 30 hours or 50 hours) since they have families, hobbies, etc. If my boss came to me and told me the next few weeks I had to work every day until 8pm instead of 6pm, it would obliterate my life outside work. And I'd start looking for a new job...
melenaos 7y ago
I am planning my first hire and I will follow the 1 day per month off. It can be a Monday or a Friday per month, it cannot be moved to other month and accumulated for longer vacations. This day can be used to catch up obligations, relax or be combined with a normal vacation time to extend the off period.
- arbol 7y ago
  Why not just hire for 4 days a week. You'll get a lot of applicants. Maybe start doing 4 days yourself...
- OJFord 7y ago
  That just sounds unnecessarily complicated, why not just some number up to 12 extra days' regular holiday?
  - marktani 7y ago
    Balancing out a missing team member 12 times a year for one day vs. once a year for up to 16 days (12 days + 2 weekends with 2 days each) is much more justifiable for the employer.
seniorsassycat 7y ago
why is 30 the go-to length for shorter work weeks? I chose 32 because it's 4/5 of 40. I work four days a week instead of five and im not worried about how many hours I put in. I've been part time for a year and a half. I realized I was earning more money than I needed and that I wanted more time to enjoy life. My employer, a FAANG company, offered a proportional cut to salary and stock grants.
- ilaksh 7y ago
  After 30 hours is full time and they may need to pay benefits.
  - seniorsassycat 7y ago
    at-least 30 hours is full time, 30 hour or 32 hour employee requires benefits.
- OJFord 7y ago
  My 5-day week is (not unsual at) 37.5h - so 4/5 is 30.
godot 7y ago
I was once in a position where I really wanted this, I even made a post on Ask HN ~2 years ago in hopes to generate some discussion and find resources about it [1]. Things have changed for me since then. A year ago, out of mostly good luck, I landed on a fully remote software engineer position (not having remote experience before). We don't have an overwork culture and stick to mostly 40-hour work weeks. Some days are longer and some are shorter, sure, like in most tech startups. Ultimately, it feels like I'm saving much, much more time just by not commuting. This is not just saving the 2-3 hours per day commute (typical for SF bay area), which is huge on its own, but also a lot of little pieces of time throughout the day -- you can sneak in time to do some housework chores during idling minutes at work (unload the dishwasher when you take your coffee mug back to the kitchen!), you can make a quick lunch in ~2 minutes at home instead of having to go out (even down to the cafe to line up for free food, in the case of big cos). The end result is that even though I still work mostly 40-hour work weeks, it feels almost like moving to part time work. The best thing about it is you still get full benefits (health insurance is expensive on your own!), and base pay is relatively decent (not as high as SF startups, but still a lot higher than part time employment). And I'm doing fulfilling work that I like, and spending my time productively, to boot. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14808178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14808178
- jonnycoder 7y ago
  May I ask where you work? I am seeking a remote software/senior software engineer position. Thanks
  - rovr138 7y ago
    Not who you asked, but there are lots of companies. I found my current role through a SO job posting. It was actually pretty quick.
- sshagent 7y ago
  this is pretty much my position. I've been working from home, for 8 or 9 years. The commute is around 2 hours each way. So saving 4 hours + other random delays is heaven. I've been offered work on twice my salary but all include travel. No chance i'll take them. Quality of life > Extra monies
motohagiography 7y ago
I will use this when I can hire. BUT there is an interesting angle on this is it means managers need to get enough value out of a 30hr team member. There are lots of smart optimizations I could use to do that (clear roles, efficient meetings, managing task intensity), but there is this general problem of who is holding the risk in the business. If you miss a client commitment or the sales people want to blame losing a sale on someone else, the first place they are going to go is the 30hr person "not pulling their weight." In development, I think most pro developers would be massively more productive if they didn't have to waste away in an office 8h/day. But when you get out into the field where the business is about relationships, which are in turn about perceptions and commitments, in an enterprise environment, I guarantee a customer will say, "nice product, but if you can't demonstrate your ability to get me feature X by next quarter, and this competitor can, I'm going to scuttle this deal." The salesperson whose commission is riding on this goes back to the product manager and says, "We're going to lose this high profile deal the CEO is watching because your engineers are soft and lazy? wtf?" The PM goes to the CTO and says, "the survival of the company depends on deals like this, I need your people to burn the midnight oil." CTO goes to engineering manager, "so this 30hr/week person, get them full time or get them out, we can't have this liability." Eng manager says, "but they are my best developer! This is how we attract and retain the talent that makes this possible!" CTO says, "get it done." Eng manager writes email and starts the manage-out paper trail to 30hr person, "as per my last request to get these items done, we need to improve your performance..." 30hr super-developer receives weirdly formal email from manager, updates linkedin, starts pinging recruiters. I'd wager 30hr weeks are a great way for startups to get talent they couldn't otherwise afford, but it will be temporary in their growth phase, as the above scenario is inevitable once they have momentum.
- itamarst 7y ago
  Basically the CTO in the scenario you give is incompetent. If you work for an incompetent CTO (and they are legion, to be fair) you're going to have problems, yes.
- marktani 7y ago
  Have all your team members work 30h and the "not pulling their weight" argument is gone. Or if that is not sustainable/beneficial for other types of jobs than developer, only apply the 30h to your developer team. But do it consistent per team. Another thought, I haven't seen this dynamic with part-time employees, so I don't think it applies to 30h employees either. Have you seen this with part-time employees?
ElmUser1022 7y ago
The first job I clicked on is advertising a 40 hour working week.. https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e896199a41f https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e8...
- nbrempel 7y ago
  You can read more about thoughtbot in issue #2: https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632dbe&id=52d13af55d https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632d...
  - pluma 7y ago
    That's not any more of a "30 hours job" than Google with its freaky fridays.
  - CobrastanJorji 7y ago
    While I absolutely support allowing employees to spend a day a week on self-improvement, even if I were willing to consider those hours not work hours, it'd still be 32 hours.
    - marktani 7y ago
      I think it's because 30 supposedly sounds/looks better than 32. 32 is 4x8 after all, so I imagine many "30h jobs" would turn out to be 32h. Example: https://wildbit.com/blog/2017/10/19/4-day-work-week-update https://wildbit.com/blog/2017/10/19/4-day-work-week-update (also found a job offer by this company on the board).
jkarneges 7y ago
I once had an employer who was financially constrained and needed to reduce my time on my project to 50%. I was given the choice of working the other half of my time on another project, or simply only working 50% time at the company (along with a 50% pay cut). I chose the latter and had the time of my life. It felt kinda like my contracting days in the sense that I had a ridiculous amount of free time, except I didn't have to chase contracts or report hours. I still got paid twice a month and kept my benefits. Some people thought I was crazy for choosing that option, but I typically value my time more than money, and any engineer can live just fine on 50% pay.
razzimatazz 7y ago
in crazy liberal Europe you see plenty of IT jobs advertised as 80-100%, i.e. potential for the candidate to negotiate a 4 vs 5 day work week. (examples https://www.jobs.ch/en/vacancies/information-technology-telecom/ https://www.jobs.ch/en/vacancies/information-technology-tele... ) My colleagues in Switzerland who took this path were either fathers that directed that extra day to their child, or people with a vibe for the outdoors and exploring . It gave an impression of financial stability and level-headedness in my mind. And demonstrated that these people were employable and valuable enough to contribute good value over 4 days per week. So I think it is a good look for an employer to have these approaches in place. As downsides for the rest of us, yes meetings would sometimes need to be delayed and certain crunch periods had the awkward obstacle of a 3-day weekend for some team members, but I hope the 80% employee demonstrates flexibility to help hit deliveries when necessary.
- touristtam 7y ago
  > yes meetings would sometimes need to be delayed and certain crunch periods had the awkward obstacle of a 3-day weekend for some team members If both are an issue, then it is a sure sign the company has other issues.
deleted 7y ago
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wutman 7y ago
Isn't 40 hours short enough?
warp_factor 7y ago
The issue is that when you work 30 hours you are still really working with the same output as 40 hours. You will basically squeeze the 5 days into 4. I honestly feel it's easier to find a regular job and work from home 1 or 2 days a week and manage your week in such a way that you perform all your tasks in 4 days.
ilaksh 7y ago
I think 30 hours is much more realistic for cognitively intensive work. Assuming people are not wasting a lot of time. So this makes sense to me. And I love that the jobs I am seeing on there are remote. However, the 30 hours thing reminds me of one issue that has occurred for me as a remote contract worker over the years which is a lack of benefits. Now, I know that supposedly everyone can just charge a ton of money and then easily cover all of their own insurance and other needs. For many people that works out. However, there is a large section of the market that, whether people want to admit it or not, does not have resources that really stretch to cover benefits with the pay that they offer. And so these small companies hire people like me who want or need remote work, and they specifically avoid going over 30 hours so that they can get around laws related to benefits. I have had several 'contracts' like this. They were all in my opinion normal employment except that they made a weak attempt at avoiding employment laws by forbidding invoicing over 30 hours and maybe a few other things. To be honest, I am very bad at networking and have been glad to have those opportunities. However, not having things like health insurance or a retirement fund is a pretty big issue.
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
In the past few years I’ve gone to 30 hour weeks. It really frustrated my managers at Google, but as an hourly contractor I neither needed the extra money nor wanted to be at work any more than that. Working 40 hours feels like I’m just burning my life away. Even though the managers didn’t like it, they kept extending my contract until the two year maximum came up. Then I found a new employer who was eager to hire me. I told them if I could work four days a week and about 30 hours a week, I’d take the job. He agreed and actually it’s working really well for both of us. He doesn’t actually need a huge amount of work done, I’m just working on some side projects he never has time for. The perpetual three day weekends give me a genuine sense of freedom on weekends that I haven’t felt before. Previously the two day weekend was stressful. With the three day weekend I have plenty of time for side projects (which I do constantly), and I’ve recently bought a mountain bike. Ive finally got time to do my weekend chores while still enjoying myself. And I work 10-30 hours a week in a really chill environment. All my bills are paid and I have time to live my life. I’m 34. It’s hard to find this kind of situation, but let me assure you - it’s well worth pursuing and it’s life changing. Also my managers at google didn’t like my 30 hour a week schedule and they didn’t want to hire me full time at the end of my contract, but they also didn’t let me go. If you want to explore this, make yourself useful and be a little pushy. It’s well worth it.
- datavirtue 7y ago
  It's not that hard to find. In my experience no one has been tracking hours or PTO closely if at all. My current employer has unlimited PTO and certainly doesn't care about how many hours you are at the office or "working."
- faitswulff 7y ago
  Have you considered taking Wednesdays off? I can't remember where I saw it (probably HN), but it breaks up long work weeks so that you only have two consecutive work days in a row. I'd be eager to try that if I had a 30 hour work week.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    I haven’t! The four day a week gig is relatively new, but Monday off is pretty nice!
eecsninja 7y ago
If I had the option to reduce my working hours by 25%, I would actually prefer to accrue the extra time as vacation, so that I can take several weeks off at once.
anotherevan 7y ago
Managing to secure work-from-home employment, initially three days, and currently four days, allowed me to keep working when we hit a high needs situation with one of our kids. Sometimes working less than five days a week can be not so much a work/life balance choice for the privileged, but a work/life necessity thrust upon you by circumstance. So I applaud your efforts to provide more options. I also applaud your providing RSS feeds for dinosaurs like me. I recommend adding a <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"> element to the <head> of the page to improve it's visibility.
sidcool 7y ago
IT managers really need to heed this advice. Not everyone is working for Tesla. There may be a few times a year one needs to sprint through. And that's even fun. But consistent 50+ hours workweeks are bad for company, bad for employee and bad for the economy.
patatino 7y ago
I work 4 days a week from home, one day off. No commute, having a whole day with my daughter (wife works on that day) and it's great! I also think I will look back at this time and really appreciate my decision when I get older. I also know we are very lucky to be in a position to live like that. Others just don't have the luxury and need to work more because of the money.

558 points by nbrempel 7y ago

As someone approaching middles ages with a family to take care of, this is something I really appreciate and have bookmarked. I hope it takes off and does well.

gschier 7y ago

So nice to see more and more companies focusing on sustainable working hours. I'm curious how you go about finding these companies to write about. Have you already heard of them? Do they reach out? Do you have some special search terms to find them?

nbrempel 7y ago
At the moment I spend time researching companies and other related media myself. https://keyvalues.io https://keyvalues.io has been a great resource! There are some readers of the newsletter that have shared their own employer’s work/life balance philosophies and open positions too which has been great.

akozak 7y ago

Number of hours still seems like the wrong unit of measurement to me. Shouldn't companies care more about productivity?

cl0ckt0wer 7y ago
And what's a good productivity metric?
- eclecticsceptic 7y ago
  Widgets created
  - omgHNkarma 7y ago
    Lives wasted.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
- akozak 7y ago
  That'd be very job-specific. It's probably misguided to aim for highly quantitative measurements. If productivity is measured as output per input, you have a lot of flexibility in how to define the relevant output - e.g. hitting well-defined product goals or milestones (versus e.g. lines of code, which seems wrong).
- pastor_elm 7y ago
  commits per day
Skunkleton 7y ago
If I am still productive at 60 hours and I am being paid a salary, then why not work me 60 hours? Employers care about getting things done, employees care about how their time is spent. Employers need (~)happy employees. I think hours is the right measurement here. Perhaps the issue is exempt employees? I don't see why I shouldn't be paid hourly.
- souprock 7y ago
  Yep. My "salary" is really just my hourly rate times the number of hours in the year if I work 40-hour weeks. I can get 50% more pay if I work 60-hour weeks.
itamarst 7y ago
A rational company would, but in practice lots of companies either don't know how to measure productivity, or they are confused enough to believe that long hours will result in more output. So as an employee you want to ensure you have a hard limit on how many hours you're expected to work (40 for regular jobs, or as in this case, less than that).
mywittyname 7y ago
They care about productivity, but that's more difficult to measure directly, so they need some proxy metric for it. Hours worked seems like a reasonable metric that can be applied to the broader workforce.
- akozak 7y ago
  Right I get why - but it's crazy to think that the vast majority of companies give up measuring the thing that everyone knows matters, especially when gearing your incentives around it should be better for everyone. (except low productivity workers I guess?)
  - matwood 7y ago
    Can you even define productivity? On the surface it appears as easy as getting work done, which if only a single person is on the team that may be enough. But once you add a group of people together, mapping a teams productivity to a single metric that can be applied to each individual becomes much harder if not impossible. Basketball has had this problem for a long time. The plus/minus metric was invented as an attempt to address all the things players do while on the floor, but do not directly relate to an easy to capture metric. It also tries to address players who put their own personal productivity over that of the team.
burntoutcase 7y ago
It's easy to measure workers by how many hours their ass is in their seat per day, so that's what gets measured and that's how we're judged. I'm tempted to say I'd rather be paid per bug/feature, with the pay rate increasing based on the complexity of the bug/feature, so that when I think I have enough money I can say no to additional work without repercussions -- but workers in other industries organized against [piece work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work) for a reason.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Per bug you say? I'm gonna write me a new minivan this afternoon! http://blog.klocwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dilbert-minivan-small.png http://blog.klocwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dilbert-...
nbrempel 7y ago
I agree - google/check out something called the "Results Only Work Environment" or "ROWE" it's a great framework for this.

pmiller2 7y ago

I’m surprised there’s a listing based in San Francisco. I’m not surprised many of them are remote.

gregkerzhner 7y ago

The thoughtbot jobs say they are 40 hour a week jobs in the description.

pastor_elm 7y ago
>"30 Hour Jobs is a job board for job seekers and employers who believe that shorter workweeks can lead to increased productivity and higher job satisfaction." Doesn't mean you actually have to offer only 30 hrs.
- somebodythere 7y ago
  Does kind of defeat the purpose though.
antonkm 7y ago
Officially my employee works 40 hours because of the benefits if he were to need support from the government (ie parental leave, sickness leading to not being able to work). Off the record he does 30 hour weeks as I believe he will stay happy and more productive that way. I also pay full for gym membership and other stuff he might need. Might be the same case here?
nbrempel 7y ago
"30 Hour Jobs" is the title but the site is intended to capture all sorts of working environments that embrace reduced working hours or flexible work in some capacity. You can read more about thoughtbot in issue #2: https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632dbe&id=52d13af55d https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632d...
ElmUser1022 7y ago
Here's one - https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e896199a41f https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e8...

itamarst 7y ago

If you want a shorter workweek you should definitely sign up for the 30 Hour Jobs list (https://30hourjobs.com/ https://30hourjobs.com/), but—keep in mind there just aren't that many companies that have advertised positions that qualify. Which doesn't mean you should give up. What you can do as a programmer is _negotiate_ a shorter workweek. I've done it at multiple jobs, personally. Here's one programmer I talked who has been working 4 day a week for 15 years: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer... And if you want to do it yourself, the easiest place to do it is at your current job: https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-way/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-... (And for those who will chime in explaining how no company will ever agree to this, here are some more examples of people who have done it: https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/05/09/part-time-software-developer/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/05/09/part-time-software-d...)

UglyToad 7y ago
I actually tried this at my last job, the idea was to start swapping raises for time since I value my time and life far more than the diminishing returns from more (fairly but) heavily taxed raises but the startup I was at was incredibly zealous about long hours so I left. In this new job I'm hoping to build up a negotiating position where this will be possible again, this time I think the company culture might support it. So it very much depends on the company and you need to cement your value before you can try it so it's a high risk strategy.
- itamarst 7y ago
  This won't work at a company that inherently values long hours, yes. And it's much easier at a job you've been at for a while, yes, because then you're much more valuable in a whole bunch of ways. It is doable at new jobs, but that is much harder the first time around. So you have the right plan: 1. Get a job at company that isn't obsessed with long hours. 2. Stick around for a year so you're extra-valuable. 3. Negotiate shorter workweek. You will then have easier time negotiating at later jobs, especially if you don't quit ("thanks for the offer, I'd love to come work for you. however, at current job I work 4 days a week... do you think you could match that?")

philshem 7y ago

Self-promotion, but I wrote about my search for part-time work in a full-time world: https://smalldata.dev/posts/pay-me-less/ https://smalldata.dev/posts/pay-me-less/

itamarst 7y ago
What you're doing (only mentioning you want part-time after you get offer) is a good first step. More suggestions: 1. You're underselling yourself in this page, so you might be doing that in your interviews too. E.g. "SALE! For a limited time only - 40% off!" Yes, it's a joke, but you don't want to make jokes about how you're cheap when you're looking for a job. 2. Let's say you talk to company A, they give you offer for 100% time, you say "can I have 60%?" and they say "no". Don't walk away. Instead, say "let me think about that for a week or two." Now, when the next week you get offer from company B, you can say "I have an offer from another company, but I like you more... maybe we can work something out. How about 60%?" Having that extra offer makes you seem more valuable. 3. Don't give up. Sometime this takes a while, and if you treat this as something you're practicing, every interview you do you will help you improve. (I also wrote a book about negotiating a 3-day weekend; 60% is harder, but it's the same basic advice: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/ https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/)
- gregkerzhner 7y ago
  6 years ago (pretty early in my career) I was working for a small consulting company in San Fransisco and negotiated a 4 day workweek for a paycut (as well as going remote). The schedule was awesome, but I did see one big downside - you inherently start falling behind the full time employees. Everyone else is working full time, so they tend to accomplish more than you. Also, you end up missing out on important meetings that will inevitably happen on your day off. Over time, when important projects came up, they would not be given to me since I would deliver them slower and also sometimes didn't have background on them since I missed meetings where they were discussed. Eventually I quit out of boredom and career stagnation. I am curious if you experienced any of these things, how you handled them, or how you managed to avoid them. Now, I find that the model that works better for me is to work full time, but take big (many month) breaks between projects. I would still love to work 4 days a week though, just didn't work out for me in practice.

Sweetness 7y ago

I really hope this picks up and I'll keep a close eye on this job board for sure. Great idea!

lixtra 7y ago

I renegotiated my job down to 4 days taking a 20% salary cut (a bit less because of progressive taxes). I’m a bit flexible, sometimes working 5 days a week and then 3. This is a win-win for me and my employer because in dire times I can sometimes work 125%. On the downside it feels I do about the same amount of work as I was doing when I worked 100%. Just less slack. But then I’m well paid for my 80% (after some raises).

rabidrat 7y ago
I had a similar situation and also felt like I was getting the short end of the stick sometimes; I was working harder during those 4 days than I was when I was working 5 days. But 3-day weekends every week are so amazing. It's like taking a 20% paycut to change an hour-long commute into a 10-minute commute (which, 2x/day and 5x/week, would be the equivalent time advantage). which is also definitely worth it.
GordonS 7y ago
I did the same thing around 2 years ago, going from 5x 7.5h days to 4x 7.5h days, taking a 20% pay cut in the process. The extra family and side-project time I get has been well worth it. I honestly don't feel like I'm any less productive, my employer is getting a pretty good deal!
Rapzid 7y ago
I find it odd people are willing to take such a huge pay cut. A lot are probably working more hours each day, and in any case could have negotiated 4 days with zero pay cut. There is a case to be made that the week wouldn't be 20% less productive, and not quitting for a job with your preferred schedule is a win for the employer...

nbrempel 7y ago

Hey everyone, I created this newsletter and job board because I’ve noticed a trend in companies measuring employee output with results instead of hours worked. I strongly believe that overwork is a problem in society right now. I’m hoping to bolster the community of people that share this belief and to help solve this problem. I should also clarify that 30 Hour Jobs is the title here but I would like to capture companies of all sorts that support a flexible work week or simply embrace work/life balance and/or reduced hours in some way.

langitbiru 7y ago
You stole my idea. :) Anyway, maybe you should put interviews of people who made it successfully. Surely there are some people who work 20-30 hours per week in this world and make some good money.
- nbrempel 7y ago
  That's a great idea, thanks! :)
  - coderholic 7y ago
    We have 2 engineers at IPinfo.io that have ~30 hour jobs, and I'm sure they'd be interested in talking. Email me at ben@ipinfo.io and I can out you in touch. We're also open to hiring more people with similar hours!
    - nbrempel 7y ago
      Thanks Ben! I'll shoot you an email. Please also don't hesitate to put up your openings on the job board :) https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/submit/job https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/submit/job
    - danr4 7y ago
      Hey I think I'm one of them! I've actually worked 30h weeks for the past 2.5 years. It's amazing, i'll be happy to talk about it.

johngalt 7y ago

Interesting, but I don't think it is as easily cracked as simply creating a 30hr job board. Certainly there are people who want to work 30hrs because on balance they will be more productive per hour. Perhaps even enough to offset the overall reduction in work hours. However, there are also people who simply want to do less work. Being the job board that collects applicants who's primary variable is minimizing hours worked is not a super positive signal. From the employer perspective many of the most important and high value jobs are more likely to be perceived as 50hr/week jobs rather than 30hr/week jobs. Not to mention that 30hrs is a common break point between fulltime and part time, with the associated legal differences in benefits and such. Sadly a 50hr job board might be vastly more successful.

itamarst 7y ago
"Minimizing hours worked" is a great positive sign. You hire a programmer to solve problems (or better yet, identify and solve problems), not to sit on their butt for the maximum number of hours. There's always a limited amount of resources (time, money, etc), regardless of how many hours are worked. So someone whose goal is minimizing hours worked will tend to come up with much better solutions than someone whose only solution is to work longer hours. Because instead of saying "I'll just work longer!" they'll actively try to come up with a fundamentally more efficient solution. (Long version: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/02/11/working-long-hours/ https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/02/11/working-long-hours/)
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > "Minimizing hours worked" is a great positive sign. You hire a programmer to solve problems (or better yet, identify and solve problems), not to sit on their butt for the maximum number of hours. That assumes the client is paying by the problem and not by the other. Sadly, while there is project work, every place I've worked has also had a huge emphasis on billable hours.
  - itamarst 7y ago
    Yeah, billable hours is bad (for everyone). Jonathan Stark talks about this a lot: https://jonathanstark.com/ https://jonathanstark.com/ Lots of programming jobs aren't tied to that, though.

kulix425 7y ago

lol very typical millenial thinking: we're actually more productive if we work a lot less... no you're just lazy

excelleme 7y ago

I know everyone wants to judge productivity instead of hours per week. But, I feel that 40 hours per week is a reasonable amount to request and that MOST (not all) employees are better managed by an hour standard instead of a productivity standard (which is hard to measure anyways). All of my employees work from home and at first I was all about judging by productivity, but then I realized it was being abused for the most part and that if I set rules for timings and hours worked, it would be simpler and easier, at least for now.

antonkm 7y ago
Abused how?
- option_greek 7y ago
  The productivity bar keeps going up. People end up doing work while at home etc to keep up.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    Could you not standardise productivity units?
  - nwsm 7y ago
    I don't think that's what OP meant. OP was the one setting the productivity bar so I took it to mean employees were abusing it in whatever way.
wry_discontent 7y ago
> I feel that 40 hours per week is a reasonable amount I disagree. I want to work less and live more.
- xfitm3 7y ago
  I'm genuinely curious why anyone would think differently. Life is not work - get out and live a little.

westoque 7y ago

I for one don't agree about hours in general, be it 30 hours or 40 hours per week. I like to think in goals, do we have to finish X this quarter? Break down the task into segments, and break it down more into weekly sprints. You can then estimate what tasks can be done for the week without taking into account hours worked. The only caveat is you need an experienced engineer/product that knows the complexity of the feature and/or codebase. We've found this has let to happier employees since the work is variable with some weeks being heavy work, and some light so there's a good balance of stress. You are also able to manage your own time so if you work better early morning or late at night, you can do it as long as you're productive. This also opens up more opportunities for you to use your "regular" 9-5 time to workout or go places. For example, you'd be surprised on how nice it is to go shopping in the mall on a wed at 1pm or watch a movie mon at 10am.

phil248 7y ago
Many people strongly prefer a predictable work week (be it 30 hours or 50 hours) since they have families, hobbies, etc. If my boss came to me and told me the next few weeks I had to work every day until 8pm instead of 6pm, it would obliterate my life outside work. And I'd start looking for a new job...

melenaos 7y ago

I am planning my first hire and I will follow the 1 day per month off. It can be a Monday or a Friday per month, it cannot be moved to other month and accumulated for longer vacations. This day can be used to catch up obligations, relax or be combined with a normal vacation time to extend the off period.

arbol 7y ago
Why not just hire for 4 days a week. You'll get a lot of applicants. Maybe start doing 4 days yourself...
OJFord 7y ago
That just sounds unnecessarily complicated, why not just some number up to 12 extra days' regular holiday?
- marktani 7y ago
  Balancing out a missing team member 12 times a year for one day vs. once a year for up to 16 days (12 days + 2 weekends with 2 days each) is much more justifiable for the employer.

seniorsassycat 7y ago

why is 30 the go-to length for shorter work weeks? I chose 32 because it's 4/5 of 40. I work four days a week instead of five and im not worried about how many hours I put in. I've been part time for a year and a half. I realized I was earning more money than I needed and that I wanted more time to enjoy life. My employer, a FAANG company, offered a proportional cut to salary and stock grants.

ilaksh 7y ago
After 30 hours is full time and they may need to pay benefits.
- seniorsassycat 7y ago
  at-least 30 hours is full time, 30 hour or 32 hour employee requires benefits.
OJFord 7y ago
My 5-day week is (not unsual at) 37.5h - so 4/5 is 30.

godot 7y ago

I was once in a position where I really wanted this, I even made a post on Ask HN ~2 years ago in hopes to generate some discussion and find resources about it [1]. Things have changed for me since then. A year ago, out of mostly good luck, I landed on a fully remote software engineer position (not having remote experience before). We don't have an overwork culture and stick to mostly 40-hour work weeks. Some days are longer and some are shorter, sure, like in most tech startups. Ultimately, it feels like I'm saving much, much more time just by not commuting. This is not just saving the 2-3 hours per day commute (typical for SF bay area), which is huge on its own, but also a lot of little pieces of time throughout the day -- you can sneak in time to do some housework chores during idling minutes at work (unload the dishwasher when you take your coffee mug back to the kitchen!), you can make a quick lunch in ~2 minutes at home instead of having to go out (even down to the cafe to line up for free food, in the case of big cos). The end result is that even though I still work mostly 40-hour work weeks, it feels almost like moving to part time work. The best thing about it is you still get full benefits (health insurance is expensive on your own!), and base pay is relatively decent (not as high as SF startups, but still a lot higher than part time employment). And I'm doing fulfilling work that I like, and spending my time productively, to boot. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14808178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14808178

jonnycoder 7y ago
May I ask where you work? I am seeking a remote software/senior software engineer position. Thanks
- rovr138 7y ago
  Not who you asked, but there are lots of companies. I found my current role through a SO job posting. It was actually pretty quick.
sshagent 7y ago
this is pretty much my position. I've been working from home, for 8 or 9 years. The commute is around 2 hours each way. So saving 4 hours + other random delays is heaven. I've been offered work on twice my salary but all include travel. No chance i'll take them. Quality of life > Extra monies

motohagiography 7y ago

I will use this when I can hire. BUT there is an interesting angle on this is it means managers need to get enough value out of a 30hr team member. There are lots of smart optimizations I could use to do that (clear roles, efficient meetings, managing task intensity), but there is this general problem of who is holding the risk in the business. If you miss a client commitment or the sales people want to blame losing a sale on someone else, the first place they are going to go is the 30hr person "not pulling their weight." In development, I think most pro developers would be massively more productive if they didn't have to waste away in an office 8h/day. But when you get out into the field where the business is about relationships, which are in turn about perceptions and commitments, in an enterprise environment, I guarantee a customer will say, "nice product, but if you can't demonstrate your ability to get me feature X by next quarter, and this competitor can, I'm going to scuttle this deal." The salesperson whose commission is riding on this goes back to the product manager and says, "We're going to lose this high profile deal the CEO is watching because your engineers are soft and lazy? wtf?" The PM goes to the CTO and says, "the survival of the company depends on deals like this, I need your people to burn the midnight oil." CTO goes to engineering manager, "so this 30hr/week person, get them full time or get them out, we can't have this liability." Eng manager says, "but they are my best developer! This is how we attract and retain the talent that makes this possible!" CTO says, "get it done." Eng manager writes email and starts the manage-out paper trail to 30hr person, "as per my last request to get these items done, we need to improve your performance..." 30hr super-developer receives weirdly formal email from manager, updates linkedin, starts pinging recruiters. I'd wager 30hr weeks are a great way for startups to get talent they couldn't otherwise afford, but it will be temporary in their growth phase, as the above scenario is inevitable once they have momentum.

itamarst 7y ago
Basically the CTO in the scenario you give is incompetent. If you work for an incompetent CTO (and they are legion, to be fair) you're going to have problems, yes.
marktani 7y ago
Have all your team members work 30h and the "not pulling their weight" argument is gone. Or if that is not sustainable/beneficial for other types of jobs than developer, only apply the 30h to your developer team. But do it consistent per team. Another thought, I haven't seen this dynamic with part-time employees, so I don't think it applies to 30h employees either. Have you seen this with part-time employees?

ElmUser1022 7y ago

The first job I clicked on is advertising a 40 hour working week.. https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e896199a41f https://jobs.30hourjobs.com/jobs/4d4823a6-661c-451a-8418-6e8...

nbrempel 7y ago
You can read more about thoughtbot in issue #2: https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632dbe&id=52d13af55d https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=f8a0d9af744b2eb7002632d...
- pluma 7y ago
  That's not any more of a "30 hours job" than Google with its freaky fridays.
- CobrastanJorji 7y ago
  While I absolutely support allowing employees to spend a day a week on self-improvement, even if I were willing to consider those hours not work hours, it'd still be 32 hours.
  - marktani 7y ago
    I think it's because 30 supposedly sounds/looks better than 32. 32 is 4x8 after all, so I imagine many "30h jobs" would turn out to be 32h. Example: https://wildbit.com/blog/2017/10/19/4-day-work-week-update https://wildbit.com/blog/2017/10/19/4-day-work-week-update (also found a job offer by this company on the board).

jkarneges 7y ago

I once had an employer who was financially constrained and needed to reduce my time on my project to 50%. I was given the choice of working the other half of my time on another project, or simply only working 50% time at the company (along with a 50% pay cut). I chose the latter and had the time of my life. It felt kinda like my contracting days in the sense that I had a ridiculous amount of free time, except I didn't have to chase contracts or report hours. I still got paid twice a month and kept my benefits. Some people thought I was crazy for choosing that option, but I typically value my time more than money, and any engineer can live just fine on 50% pay.

razzimatazz 7y ago

in crazy liberal Europe you see plenty of IT jobs advertised as 80-100%, i.e. potential for the candidate to negotiate a 4 vs 5 day work week. (examples https://www.jobs.ch/en/vacancies/information-technology-telecom/ https://www.jobs.ch/en/vacancies/information-technology-tele... ) My colleagues in Switzerland who took this path were either fathers that directed that extra day to their child, or people with a vibe for the outdoors and exploring . It gave an impression of financial stability and level-headedness in my mind. And demonstrated that these people were employable and valuable enough to contribute good value over 4 days per week. So I think it is a good look for an employer to have these approaches in place. As downsides for the rest of us, yes meetings would sometimes need to be delayed and certain crunch periods had the awkward obstacle of a 3-day weekend for some team members, but I hope the 80% employee demonstrates flexibility to help hit deliveries when necessary.

touristtam 7y ago
> yes meetings would sometimes need to be delayed and certain crunch periods had the awkward obstacle of a 3-day weekend for some team members If both are an issue, then it is a sure sign the company has other issues.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

wutman 7y ago

Isn't 40 hours short enough?

warp_factor 7y ago

The issue is that when you work 30 hours you are still really working with the same output as 40 hours. You will basically squeeze the 5 days into 4. I honestly feel it's easier to find a regular job and work from home 1 or 2 days a week and manage your week in such a way that you perform all your tasks in 4 days.

ilaksh 7y ago

I think 30 hours is much more realistic for cognitively intensive work. Assuming people are not wasting a lot of time. So this makes sense to me. And I love that the jobs I am seeing on there are remote. However, the 30 hours thing reminds me of one issue that has occurred for me as a remote contract worker over the years which is a lack of benefits. Now, I know that supposedly everyone can just charge a ton of money and then easily cover all of their own insurance and other needs. For many people that works out. However, there is a large section of the market that, whether people want to admit it or not, does not have resources that really stretch to cover benefits with the pay that they offer. And so these small companies hire people like me who want or need remote work, and they specifically avoid going over 30 hours so that they can get around laws related to benefits. I have had several 'contracts' like this. They were all in my opinion normal employment except that they made a weak attempt at avoiding employment laws by forbidding invoicing over 30 hours and maybe a few other things. To be honest, I am very bad at networking and have been glad to have those opportunities. However, not having things like health insurance or a retirement fund is a pretty big issue.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago

In the past few years I’ve gone to 30 hour weeks. It really frustrated my managers at Google, but as an hourly contractor I neither needed the extra money nor wanted to be at work any more than that. Working 40 hours feels like I’m just burning my life away. Even though the managers didn’t like it, they kept extending my contract until the two year maximum came up. Then I found a new employer who was eager to hire me. I told them if I could work four days a week and about 30 hours a week, I’d take the job. He agreed and actually it’s working really well for both of us. He doesn’t actually need a huge amount of work done, I’m just working on some side projects he never has time for. The perpetual three day weekends give me a genuine sense of freedom on weekends that I haven’t felt before. Previously the two day weekend was stressful. With the three day weekend I have plenty of time for side projects (which I do constantly), and I’ve recently bought a mountain bike. Ive finally got time to do my weekend chores while still enjoying myself. And I work 10-30 hours a week in a really chill environment. All my bills are paid and I have time to live my life. I’m 34. It’s hard to find this kind of situation, but let me assure you - it’s well worth pursuing and it’s life changing. Also my managers at google didn’t like my 30 hour a week schedule and they didn’t want to hire me full time at the end of my contract, but they also didn’t let me go. If you want to explore this, make yourself useful and be a little pushy. It’s well worth it.

datavirtue 7y ago
It's not that hard to find. In my experience no one has been tracking hours or PTO closely if at all. My current employer has unlimited PTO and certainly doesn't care about how many hours you are at the office or "working."
faitswulff 7y ago
Have you considered taking Wednesdays off? I can't remember where I saw it (probably HN), but it breaks up long work weeks so that you only have two consecutive work days in a row. I'd be eager to try that if I had a 30 hour work week.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  I haven’t! The four day a week gig is relatively new, but Monday off is pretty nice!

eecsninja 7y ago

If I had the option to reduce my working hours by 25%, I would actually prefer to accrue the extra time as vacation, so that I can take several weeks off at once.

anotherevan 7y ago

Managing to secure work-from-home employment, initially three days, and currently four days, allowed me to keep working when we hit a high needs situation with one of our kids. Sometimes working less than five days a week can be not so much a work/life balance choice for the privileged, but a work/life necessity thrust upon you by circumstance. So I applaud your efforts to provide more options. I also applaud your providing RSS feeds for dinosaurs like me. I recommend adding a <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"> element to the <head> of the page to improve it's visibility.

sidcool 7y ago

IT managers really need to heed this advice. Not everyone is working for Tesla. There may be a few times a year one needs to sprint through. And that's even fun. But consistent 50+ hours workweeks are bad for company, bad for employee and bad for the economy.

patatino 7y ago

I work 4 days a week from home, one day off. No commute, having a whole day with my daughter (wife works on that day) and it's great! I also think I will look back at this time and really appreciate my decision when I get older. I also know we are very lucky to be in a position to live like that. Others just don't have the luxury and need to work more because of the money.