5 ms·

> impressive energy density of 460 Wh/Kg How does it compare with the best current battery technology? If it's significant enough that's big news, I'm sure th

by jokoon 7y ago

> impressive energy density of 460 Wh/Kg How does it compare with the best current battery technology? If it's significant enough that's big news, I'm sure this might trigger some intense attempts of industrial spying. Also I wonder why it's always the military and public funding making real progress in research, almost never private ventures.

8draco8 7y ago
Tesla Model 3 have battery with estimate density of 250 Wh/kg so that would almost double current density
- DFHippie 7y ago
  > double current density Humorous potential for confusion in an article about batteries :-)
  - amelius 7y ago
    Do you mean the potential at the cathode or the anode?
i80and 7y ago
Not an expert, but [1] states that current Lion batteries are at 260 Wh/Kg, with 400 Wh/Kg chemistry approaching commercial viability. [1]: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1803/1803.04317.pdf https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1803/1803.04317.pdf
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lovich 7y ago
>Also I wonder why it's always the military and public funding making real progress in research, almost never private ventures. Because it costs money, isn't guaranteed, and can take longer than a quarter which is a combination of aspects that private ventures hate. Private ventures can also easily pair up with universities to have the public pay the bill and then get IP protections over the innovation and sell it themselves
- daenz 7y ago
  >Private ventures can also easily pair up with universities to have the public pay the bill and then get IP protections over the innovation and sell it themselves Can you elaborate more on how that works? Seems like something that should be illegal.
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    "It is common today for university researchers to get grants to develop a system, develop it nearly to the point of completion and call that “finished,” and then start companies where they really finish the project and make it usable. Sometimes they declare the unfinished version “free”; if they are thoroughly corrupt, they instead get an exclusive license from the university. This is not a secret; it is openly admitted by everyone concerned." https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf
majkinetor 7y ago
> I'm sure this might trigger some intense attempts of industrial spying. Nah, you don't know Dr. Kang Xu, he would never sell Americans.
ihm 7y ago
I think it’s because the profit motive is only sometimes incidentally aligned with the goal of technological progress while publicly-funded researchers have progress (and often actually bettering the world) as their primary goal.
- jokoon 7y ago
  > only sometimes incidentally Why?
bluGill 7y ago
Private ventures have different motives. Private ventures are generally focused on getting to market: keeping quiet is important because they don't want their competition to know what is coming.
paulirwin 7y ago
Note that 460 Wh/kg is the density of the electrode, not the cell as a whole which given the aqueous electrolyte would be less but still higher than existing technologies. However, the key point is not just the density, but the density combined with the materials used, and (perhaps most importantly) safety. I think it's worth comparing to LiFePO4 as a baseline. It has the lowest density of common li-ion batteries (110Wh/kg), but it is very safe as it does not have the likelihood of thermal runaway. Other battery types have higher densities, like li-poly and other li-ions, but they can have thermal runaway if damaged or overcharged requiring battery management systems to prevent fire. (With LiFePO4, you also need a BMS, but mainly to prevent permanent damage to the battery to protect your investment, rather than fire.) From my understanding, if this can be commercially viable (as it should be with the lower material cost), this will achieve high density, low cost, and thermal safety, which puts it in a league of its own.
- ksec 7y ago
  > From my understanding, if this can be commercially viable (as it should be with the lower material cost), this will achieve high density, low cost, and thermal safety, which puts it in a league of its own. And it would be perfect if we could get cycles beyond the current ~500 range. I would be happy if we could get one within next 5 years.

by jokoon 7y ago

8draco8 7y ago

Tesla Model 3 have battery with estimate density of 250 Wh/kg so that would almost double current density

DFHippie 7y ago
> double current density Humorous potential for confusion in an article about batteries :-)
- amelius 7y ago
  Do you mean the potential at the cathode or the anode?

i80and 7y ago

Not an expert, but [1] states that current Lion batteries are at 260 Wh/Kg, with 400 Wh/Kg chemistry approaching commercial viability. [1]: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1803/1803.04317.pdf https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1803/1803.04317.pdf

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lovich 7y ago

>Also I wonder why it's always the military and public funding making real progress in research, almost never private ventures. Because it costs money, isn't guaranteed, and can take longer than a quarter which is a combination of aspects that private ventures hate. Private ventures can also easily pair up with universities to have the public pay the bill and then get IP protections over the innovation and sell it themselves

daenz 7y ago
>Private ventures can also easily pair up with universities to have the public pay the bill and then get IP protections over the innovation and sell it themselves Can you elaborate more on how that works? Seems like something that should be illegal.
- emiliobumachar 7y ago
  "It is common today for university researchers to get grants to develop a system, develop it nearly to the point of completion and call that “finished,” and then start companies where they really finish the project and make it usable. Sometimes they declare the unfinished version “free”; if they are thoroughly corrupt, they instead get an exclusive license from the university. This is not a secret; it is openly admitted by everyone concerned." https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf

majkinetor 7y ago

> I'm sure this might trigger some intense attempts of industrial spying. Nah, you don't know Dr. Kang Xu, he would never sell Americans.

ihm 7y ago

I think it’s because the profit motive is only sometimes incidentally aligned with the goal of technological progress while publicly-funded researchers have progress (and often actually bettering the world) as their primary goal.

jokoon 7y ago
> only sometimes incidentally Why?

bluGill 7y ago

Private ventures have different motives. Private ventures are generally focused on getting to market: keeping quiet is important because they don't want their competition to know what is coming.

paulirwin 7y ago

Note that 460 Wh/kg is the density of the electrode, not the cell as a whole which given the aqueous electrolyte would be less but still higher than existing technologies. However, the key point is not just the density, but the density combined with the materials used, and (perhaps most importantly) safety. I think it's worth comparing to LiFePO4 as a baseline. It has the lowest density of common li-ion batteries (110Wh/kg), but it is very safe as it does not have the likelihood of thermal runaway. Other battery types have higher densities, like li-poly and other li-ions, but they can have thermal runaway if damaged or overcharged requiring battery management systems to prevent fire. (With LiFePO4, you also need a BMS, but mainly to prevent permanent damage to the battery to protect your investment, rather than fire.) From my understanding, if this can be commercially viable (as it should be with the lower material cost), this will achieve high density, low cost, and thermal safety, which puts it in a league of its own.

ksec 7y ago
> From my understanding, if this can be commercially viable (as it should be with the lower material cost), this will achieve high density, low cost, and thermal safety, which puts it in a league of its own. And it would be perfect if we could get cycles beyond the current ~500 range. I would be happy if we could get one within next 5 years.