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Tesla's Screen Saga Shows Why Automotive Grade Matters

246 points by tomohawk 7y ago

dingo_bat 7y ago
I think traditional car manufacturers just don't advance the state of the art in screens and other in other in-car electronics at a pace fast enough. They are content with shitty 7 inch screens with faded colors, since their supplier told them this is the best that can be done. You need someone like tesla to force screen suppliers to catch up to the best screens, do the required testing and make the best screens capable of withstanding heat and shock. It's the same with the concept of an electric car and the concept of self driving.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Ah yes, forced modernization, and the users are the beta testers of all this. Sorry to all the yellow screen owners who won't get them replaced, and RIP that dude that crashed into the concrete barrier.
  - hoseja 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
    - netsharc 7y ago
      Such a cheap rebuttal, and a misuse of numbers. Did you know pedestrians and motorbikes are included in that stats? "But the numbers!"... https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... Whatever the numbers it's managed to save, Tesla's buggy self-driving software has killed a few people for sure. How would you like that seal of approval on your product?
RandallBrown 7y ago
I used to work on MyFord Touch at Microsoft and this was a constant discussion. "Why do we have such terrible touchscreens, when Tesla has such great ones?" I think Tesla made the right decision because while it's certainly costing them a lot of money to deal with, the screens in most cars (especially back then) were so bad that it probably would have been worse for their brand.
- dominicl 7y ago
  The swing of the article "Look we told you so" really rubs me the wrong way. But it seems to represent the view of a large part of the Automotive industry. Instead of driving innovation forward, they shy away of the problems that introducing such innovation could have. Instead it seems the industry relies on shaming innovators for the issues of first generation future tech. This reminds me a lot of Steve Ballmer mocking the first iPhone: https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U The most likely outcome is that they will figure it out, and much earlier than any of their competitors.
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    Buying off the shelf parts is not innovation. Especially when they are not suited to purpose and you ignore the vendor's own reliability figures.
    - naikrovek 7y ago
      They did preliminary testing and the displays worked fine. Elon made a judgement call to give the go-ahead. His rationale being that no automotive grade screens that size we're available because no one did any testing on them. It was only real-world exposure that revealed the mistake in part choice. Did you RTFA? Edit: ooh I'm so scared. Use ALL your alternate accounts to down vote me! Or, you could discuss where I'm wrong like a 12-year old.
      - Phillipharryt 7y ago
        Do you really think people are using alt accounts (a pain to get enough karma to allow downvoting on here) or could it just be they disagree with you making claims that aren't in the article? It doesn't say anything about Musk's rationale.
bcatanzaro 7y ago
I have one of these yellow screens on my Model S. Tesla told me twice over the past 3 months they would be replacing it under warranty very soon. I'm disappointed to hear they're walking this back.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  I also have a Model S with this occurring on my v2 MCU. I was told by a service tech they were collecting VINs, and would have a fix available this year. I opted out of arbitration when I took delivery of the vehicle, so I intend to sue in small claims court to have it replaced if Tesla does not perform the repair as a warranty claim. Waiting for a fix I'm fine with. Being stuck with it in a $100k car that is less than a year old I am not.
  - vtail 7y ago
    Could you please share tips on how you opted out of arbitration? I’m waiting for my M3 to be delivered, and would like to understand the pros and cons. I’m in CA, US if that matters.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8vxnz0/psa_for_us_buyers_arbitration_clause/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8vxnz0/psa_for... I paid the $6 and sent mine USPS certified return receipt just to be sure. I recommend you do the same.
    - Rebelgecko 7y ago
      IIRC you have 30 days after the vehicle's delivery to send Tesla a letter saying you want to opt out (include your vehicle's VIN, and it probably doesn't hurt to use a certified letter).
  - symmitchry 7y ago
    Honest question: I'm surprised at such a hard stance against what I perceive to be an "early adopter" product. Did you not feel that buying a Tesla was a gamble?
akozak 7y ago
What's the argument against just relying on "cabin overheat protection" to keep the climate in spec? Seems like that would solve a lot of their supply chain limitations at once with relatively minimal battery drain - though it does seem wasteful to spend energy keeping electronics comfy in the sun.
- whymsicalburito 7y ago
  I would expect to be able to leave my car in a parking lot for a week or two (unplugged) and still be able to drive away when I return. I feel like with overheat protection the battery would be dead by the time I got back.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Overheat protection deactivates when the battery pack reaches 20% state of charge. EVs are a bit of a different model; whenever parking for long periods, I endeavor to find a lot that lets me plug in, even if it's 120V 15A (which is enough to keep the cabin cool and the battery somewhat conditioned, although not enough to charge if both of the previously mentioned activities are occurring). Haven't had an airport or long term parking lot yet I could not find an approved outlet or EV charger for my use, but YMMV. @leggomylibro: To reply to your deleted comment, you asked if the vehicle needed 1800W to keep itself conditioned but not maintain state of charge. It's closer to 1440W, as a 15A 120V circuit is derated to 12A (80%) for continuous duty cycle. Coolant pumps can be power hungry! @akozak: I believe it is Tesla specific. I am unaware of the feature being present on other EVs.
    - akozak 7y ago
      I'm guessing that's Tesla specific? My Bolt doesn't have (afaik) an automatic cabin conditioning feature so I've never thought about it. Presumably Chevy built it with parts on spec to handle heat.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - 7y ago
Rebelgecko 7y ago
SpaceX has had similar issues with using industrial grade parts in situations where their competitors typically use aerospace grade ones [1]. Although in their case the failures are a bit more visually spectacular than some yellow stripes [2] [1]: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_summary_nasa_irt_spacex_crs-7_final.pdf https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  They did a whole batch of testing and a bunch of those struts failed at similarly abysmal fractions of rated load. Is that really "industrial grade"?
  - icegreentea2 7y ago
    I mean, that was part of NASA's investigation conclusions. The design error wasn't using an industrially rated part, it was using it without proper screening, testing, and failure to follow manufacturer recommended safety margin. One of the purposes of using the "right rated" parts is that you get to off-load some of the testing and screening that you might otherwise wish to do to a component vendor (who is better equipped to absorb the price of testing, and because they have tighter integration with manufacturing, a better ability to achieve specifications). Like I totally get the idea of using lower cost components. But sometimes they are actually the solution. And sometimes finding the problem is incredibly expensive, if not in $$$, then at least in PR. Americans love to shit on gold plating, but they also love to shit on greedy corporations minimizing the bottom line.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    The manufacturer suggested a load factor of 4x. Most industries probably don't subject their hunks of stainless steel to temperatures of -300°F. Cast parts also have a tendency to be more brittle when exposed to certain types of forces.
    - 7y ago
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thrower123 7y ago
A car with any kind of touchscreen for anything but non-essential functions is a huge red flag for me. Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me. I think it is incredibly unsafe that things like heat and radio controls have been shifted to non-tactile touch inputs, rather than analog buttons and knobs. But I am an old fogey that keeps at least one hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road.
- CarVac 7y ago
  That's what steering wheel controls are for.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    Maybe. Depends on how modal they are. The primary issue with touch is the difficulty many people have using it by feel, and or "muscle memory" alone. Typically, one needs to identify the UX element desired, then touch, and then often verify the thing happened or select after that. Where it is modal, another whole layer of that interaction is needed, and or driver needs to retain more state info. "Which screen is it on, and is it currently available for me to use?" Steering wheel controls can be better, but many of those do toggle through various modes and the driver needs to glance at a small screen in the dash cluster. Doing that is generally superior to a touch only UX though. On many cars, low importance functions are clumped into these kinds of UX. Higher order things get their own control. I drive a lot of different cars. New, old, and Tesla. I thought the Tesla was spiffy, but did not think much of the big touch panel for reasons I have given here. My very favorite drives are on cars with great controls, and all of it working with dim interior lighting. Just enough to see what needs to be seen, the rest easily operated in a tactile way, night vision intact. This is not to say touch is not useful in cars. I think it can be and is. This is to say touch has a very long way to go before it begins to seriously challenge well designed buttons, levers and switches.
- romwell 7y ago
  > Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me. At least Toyota Avalons do it in a smart way: the display for the back-up camera is embedded in the rear-view mirror. You can only see it when you are backing up.
neya 7y ago
The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It worked really, really well for a long time. And then, summer came, I got the magic smoke from my unit. Turns out, the amplifier IC died. But, I did more research as amplifiers were actually supposed to heat up and I had cooling fans in place. What killed it wasn't the heat, but the sudden variations in temperature - Eg. when you use A/C for a while and leave your car in the hot sun. The manufacturer literally recommended to use the automotive grade version of the IC for in-car usage. Silly me. In the end, I never really got to finish the project because of the rabbit hole it became. But remember, I'm a hobbyist. I have an electronics background, but that's about it. To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. I mean, I like Musk and the work he's doing, but this doesn't seem right (just a personal opinion). I hope the customers don't have to bear this for Tesla's mistake.
- TAForObvReasons 7y ago
  "Move fast and break things" works for software you deploy on your infrastructure since you can always make changes quickly at very little cost. Website 5 pixels off? Make a CSS change and roll it out to your systems. To execute the same thing with hardware credibly, you have to accept the idea of a mass recall and replacement of faulty parts. That works for many companies like Anker, which goes out of their way and proactively replaces parts. You can't apply the software deployment model and be nonchalant and brusque when customer issues arise. The combination just serves to turn off the masses.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  I would assume it's because there is little cross-pollination between modern tech workers and automotive focused engineers. It explains why most cars' user-facing electronics are so terrible and why Tesla made such an obvious quality mistake.
  - dymk 7y ago
    This seems different than Tesla simply overlooking a quality requirement because of a lack of communication. This is the top of the top, Musk himself, saying "screw that quality requirement, this is good enough", and plowing forward regardless (and having it bite them later). Who knows how many other components they were able to cut corners with for now. And how many will start to fail in the coming years.
jcfrei 7y ago
Great article. These appear to be the exact kind of engineering lessons you would expect a new company like Tesla to learn the hard way. And it explains why incumbent car manufacturers might seem less innovative on the surface.
femto113 7y ago
I've long wished for a "slot your iPad in here" solution for this sort of thing. Sure it might not stand up to automotive grade punishment, but you can remove it when leaving the car in the sun and if it breaks it is easy to replace and much cheaper than custom parts (thanks to Apple's economies of scale).
- noelsusman 7y ago
  I wonder if iPads could hold up to all that vibration.
  - qball 7y ago
    To be fair, they technically already do when you take it with yours with you somewhere. As long as the mounting plate is sufficiently isolated from the rest of the car's movement, they shouldn't need to suffer any vibration in excess of what they'd endure under normal use and transport conditions. Of course, it's still a better situation for consumers: if the iPad does die, you can replace it that same day with an off the shelf part (or you plug your phone in for that day instead), it's trivially expensive compared to what head units of similar type cost (it's actually even cheaper if you can use a bargain-basement 50-dollar Android tablet instead of an iPad), and it's something that you can upgrade as you get the money to do so. Plus, it also heavily discourages manufacturers from pulling a Tesla and refusing to start your car before you update the infotainment software, which is also a shockingly anti-consumer trend.
- jstandard 7y ago
  I've worked on "Bring Your Own Device" concepts together with Honda.[1] There are plenty of wins for consumers in this type of setup. Automakers have taken notice that people are using their phones for an increasing share of infotainment functions. The tough, time-consuming parts are working through the supply chain to build out the connectivity and "happy coexistence" of phone and car. Also, I've yet to find a UX which blends physical, voice, and touchscreen controls while accounting for their strengths, weaknesses, and learnability. Tesla included. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg
modeless 7y ago
This person has taken the wrong lesson from the story. The actual moral of this story is that the auto industry is too conservative and being a little less conservative allows you to build one of the best cars in the world. So a few touchscreens have yellow lines. The Tesla touchscreen is still clearly better than any other car's touchscreen and if they'd done it this guy's way they wouldn't have been able to ship it at all because the part simply wasn't available then.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  Sorry, but if you're going to design a car that replaces not just the infotainment system, not just the climate controls, but the entire instrument console with a touchscreen, then it would seem to me one of the places you absolutely do not want to cut corners on is...the touchscreen. "One of the best cars in the world" is obviously subjective, and there are some ways in which Tesla is absolutely leading. But all of the innovation on display in Teslas don't earn them a free pass on build quality issues.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    Is it fair to say they “cut corners”? They bought the best screen available at the time at size they wanted, and then tested it in-house. It’s not like the screen has terrible specs, but it is not rated to operate at 130°C. So they tried adding software to keep the cabin below 50°C even when the car is parked, but either it doesn’t work all the time or people turn the feature off, of someone is parked in the sun long enough to run the battery below 20%. The trade off was a higher rate of warranty repairs in order to build the car they wanted to build. I think in the case of the Model 3, partially how they solved it is through special glass they used above the front seats. I’ve been wondering why the glass is so unique above the front seats but not the same tint for the rest of the roof glass. It’s very interesting — water droplets on the glass above the front seats look almost blood red. Now I’m guessing it’s filtering to block IR or other solar gain which might otherwise burn out the screen. https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76 https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76
    - 7y ago
castratikron 7y ago
Apparently these Teslas log to the eMMC so much that after a few years the part wears out. The screen goes black and the car falls back into limp mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q
- sschueller 7y ago
  I saw that as well and I find that scarry. Something so basic that should never happen. I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day.
  - qball 7y ago
    >I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day. https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg This WILL kill someone. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when, and it's intentional. Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail cell, or maybe they won't- but the fact of the matter is that the presence of this "feature" is negligence at best, much like this case where bricking your car when something unrelated to its core functionality dies.
    - sschueller 7y ago
      > Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail cell Sadly I highly doubt that and if someone goes to jail it will be some poor engineer that was forced the implement it that way. Just look at what happened to Uber after they actually killed someone with their self-driving car because of their disregard for safety from the top in order to save time and money. Next up, Boeing.
      - hef19898 7y ago
        Especially the Boeing case shocks me. Uber is a start-up, so their culture is different. Boeing on the other hand, well they are old school aerospace and violated their own hard learned lessons here.
catchmeifyoucan 7y ago
I think this is fine if the failure to success ratio is low for the parts. Especially given that the failure here refers to failing pixels and doesn't compromise safety. Some quick math, if an industrial part costs $10, and an automotive part costs $20, then for ten cars you save $100. Assuming that 20% of all your cars are faulty, that's a $80 savings translation. With the remaining money, you could spend $40 on R&D for a screen at the same price point with higher reliability and still come out on top. However, at some point, you will reach a time where the number of replacements that don't justify the design. For a bootstrapped company, I don't think it's a bad bet, but it is time critical to find an alternative before they start losing money.
- vel0city 7y ago
  While this might be true, you then possibly have a very noisy 20% previous customer base who may or may not buy your car again, and if noisy enough might convince others your designs are shoddy and are not worth the premium price tag you're trying to sell them for. Brands are not worth nothing.
  - catchmeifyoucan 7y ago
    Agreed, that this may not be a win for brand loyalty.
- int_19h 7y ago
  This may have been a reasonable argument if they considered it to fall under warranty, and replace it for free when it fails.
ec109685 7y ago
The Tesla Model S we've had since 2015 hasn't had any problems with its screen, despite being driven in California. This article's conclusion was strange. Without that Touch Screen, none of what makes Tesla a Tesla would have been a problem since it would have been controlled with un-upgradeable knobs, switches and buttons. I agree with the comments here that Tesla should make it right for the customers though.
- cma 7y ago
  Do you park it in a garage or out in the sun?
  - ec109685 7y ago
    Garage mostly, but not exclusively. I have never worried about this.
- int_19h 7y ago
  Tesla is not the only car with a touchscreen. OTOH physical knobs and switches are much easier to operate without looking at them. Which is particularly important in a car.
Marsymars 7y ago
Cars are a tough environment for electronics. Asides from the other examples mentioned in the article, my Ford's monochrome non-touch LCD turns into an illegibly garbled mess in the cold (below -20°C) until the car warms up.
- taneq 7y ago
  I've seen this same effect a lot when talking about Teslas. Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices, laziness, and general lack of care or professionalism, whereas an identical failure on the part of an established manufacturer is shrugged off as "oh well, sometimes parts fail." (Take the issue with fires, for instance - Teslas catch fire far less frequently than conventional cars, but every time it happens it's global front-page news.)
  - netsharc 7y ago
    > Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices If this article is accurate (let's assume it is, those quotes from Musk will get the lawyers coming so fast if they were false), then it just proved that this actually is the case! Their arrogance that "pah, who needs automotive grade?" has now come back to bite them in the ass...
  - GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
    True. But another Tesla burst into flames in Hong Kong: https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-flames-in-hong-kong/ https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-fla... Parked gas cars don't usually burst into flames.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      Google returns 2.4M results for: Parked car burst into flames "mercedes" -tesla -bmw 1M for Parked car burst into flames "tesla" -mercedes -bmw 0.5M for Parked car burst into flames "bmw" -mercedes -tesla Unscientific I know but surely an indication that at least some parked cars do burst into flames. Not usually I'll grant you, but a bit more frequently than one might think.
ajross 7y ago
Read to the final paragraph: > In fairness, other automakers have had issues with touchscreens as well. Just last year, Ford settled a class action lawsuit over a host of problems with its MyFordTouch systems and had previously extended warranty coverage for its SYNC systems. Cadillac had to recently revamp its CUE touchscreen system after numerous issues including "the dreaded spiderweb cracks." But [like, it's totally different for Tesla for reasons not having anything to do with screens or reliability][1]" Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis. The auto industry hates them so much... [1] Paraphrased.
- emptyfile 7y ago
  >Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis. All screens suck but only one manufacturer put their entire control panel in the screen... so yeah...
  - ajross 7y ago
    Right, so the whole "...shows why automotive grade matters" is a complete fabrication. All screens suck. The article spends a ton of words on why the particular panel Tesla picked was bad just to take it all back and pull a switcheroo to a design critique instead. In the last paragraph! That's not honest journalism.
    - cma 7y ago
      What you're saying is several out of hundreds of different automotive grade screens had problems too. And one out of one non-automotive grade screen (Tesla's) also had problems. Not a large enough sample size, but things look statistically better for the automotive grade ones.
- Traster 7y ago
  It's disingenuous to take "X has big problems, Y have some problems" and just whitewash it with "Basically the whole alphabet sucks". No, screens are hard and some do a better job than others.
continuational 7y ago
Can somebody point to a definition of the word "Saga" that isn't ... related to vikings? I see it more and more and it's confusing me.
- culturestate 7y ago
  What’s confusing? Sagas were long, epic stories and now we use the term colloquially (sometimes hyperbolically) to describe complex events that occur over a long period of time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sidcool 7y ago
Tesla may not be the greatest company ever, but it's certainly not a fraud. I think we should move on from that point if view. The I immense pressure from shorters and fossil fuel lobby should have destroyed Tesla by now. But here they are, surviving. If Tesla were to go bankrupt this year, I would still call it a successful company.
- Traster 7y ago
  The problem is that there's a massive gulf between fraud and successful company. If Ford put Tesla's display in their latest vehicle people would be going nuts about the fact Ford shipped such an unreliable item. Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners. This is exactly the same attitude the early years of Uber had. They'll certainly get away with cutting these corners in the short term, but in the long term it's dishonest and it's not a sustainable way of doing business.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
    >Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners Do you know that almost all (if not all) other auto-manufacturers made the calculation that they better lie to their customers about the emissions coming out of their cars? Who's really cutting more corners?
kwhitefoot 7y ago
The problem with this article and many others on similar subjects is that there isn't any real information about the prevalence of the problems that they describe. Without that it's pretty much just angry bluster whether they are describing problems in a Tesla or a Mercedes. Is it one screen in a million that fails or one in ten? There is no way of telling from the article.
- dangrossman 7y ago
  As Tesla has only manufactured 150-200K Model S's to date and the article cites multiple owners, you can definitively say the observed failures are not one in a million.
scarejunba 7y ago
> ...despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down... I've been in hotter places than that as a child and my organs are still functioning. Not that convincing a tale, got to be honest.
- ummonk 7y ago
  That is the internal body temperature at which the organs will start shutting down, but external (e.g. cabin) temperature can obviously go higher without issues. Kind of disingenuous from the author.
- greenpresident 7y ago
  It's a reference to fever temperatures. Internal body temp != ambient air temp.
_ph_ 7y ago
If you google the authors name "Edward Niedermeyer", you can find out that he has a history of bad-mouthing Tesla in a long series of blog posts. So I would take any allegations made by him with extreme care.
- dchest 7y ago
  Oh, he's still doing that? Amazing. https://twitter.com/dchest/status/741198400838860800?s=19 https://twitter.com/dchest/status/741198400838860800?s=19
- stonogo 7y ago
  He bad-mouths everyone. He's an analyst, not a cheerleader.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Which means, that his publications shouldn't be mistaken for journalism.
gnachman 7y ago
I called Tesla service in December because of both displays delaminating. They said they’d call me back, which of course they never did. This explains it, I guess.
Animats 7y ago
It's not surprising they had problems with a large screen. Large multilayered sandwiches of different materials have thermal expansion problems. Not everything will expand at the same rate, which means internal stresses as temperature cycles. Large size means the difference in length across the longest dimension will be much larger than for a small device. This breaks bonds and seals. Solar panels have the same problem, and they have "expansion joints" to deal with it.[1] Hard to do that for one seamless screen. [1] https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-arrays/thermal-expansion-and-thermal-stresses https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-arrays/therm...
EastSmith 7y ago
So Tesla is selling: - electric vehicles - long range - self driving - big screens I really wish they or somebody else focus on just the first two parts - long range electric cars. No need for the AI or other fancy stuff.
- dgzl 7y ago
  Do you think that by not giving a large touch-panel display, the car with become more efficient?
  - EastSmith 7y ago
    It will definitely have one less problem as the article points out. I also have a small touch infotainment screen in my car. Works great for calls, music and navigation - that is all what I need it to do. I have not had a single problem with it for about 4 years.
- mcv 7y ago
  Agreed. Don't try to tackle every problem at once; tackle the most important ones first, do the nice-to-haves later.
Reason077 7y ago
I have an iPhone 6 which once had a third-party screen installed to replace a cracked one. The replacement screen looked great at first - indistinguishable from the original one. But over time it has developed exactly the same issue: a yellow band/border/ring around the outside of the screen. I wonder if this is a wider issue within the LCD industry, rather than just being specific to Tesla.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Yes, it's an issue with oxygen and moisture sealing the edge of the screen. The yellowing will happen to all screens eventually, just heat speeds it up a lot.
kkarakk 7y ago
All i know is that now when i see a car without a massive touchscreen in it i end up thinking "really? in 2019? what should i pay 80 grand for a backwards POS?" now i know why these screens aren't more prevalent but still...tesla's dashboard looks superslick
yitchelle 7y ago
I hope that Tesla's attitude to using robust engineering principles does not end up causing large amount of injuries or deaths. It is not just in the cars that they produce, it is also the way their factories are run as well.

246 points by tomohawk 7y ago

I think traditional car manufacturers just don't advance the state of the art in screens and other in other in-car electronics at a pace fast enough. They are content with shitty 7 inch screens with faded colors, since their supplier told them this is the best that can be done. You need someone like tesla to force screen suppliers to catch up to the best screens, do the required testing and make the best screens capable of withstanding heat and shock. It's the same with the concept of an electric car and the concept of self driving.

netsharc 7y ago
Ah yes, forced modernization, and the users are the beta testers of all this. Sorry to all the yellow screen owners who won't get them replaced, and RIP that dude that crashed into the concrete barrier.
- hoseja 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Such a cheap rebuttal, and a misuse of numbers. Did you know pedestrians and motorbikes are included in that stats? "But the numbers!"... https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... Whatever the numbers it's managed to save, Tesla's buggy self-driving software has killed a few people for sure. How would you like that seal of approval on your product?

RandallBrown 7y ago

I used to work on MyFord Touch at Microsoft and this was a constant discussion. "Why do we have such terrible touchscreens, when Tesla has such great ones?" I think Tesla made the right decision because while it's certainly costing them a lot of money to deal with, the screens in most cars (especially back then) were so bad that it probably would have been worse for their brand.

dominicl 7y ago
The swing of the article "Look we told you so" really rubs me the wrong way. But it seems to represent the view of a large part of the Automotive industry. Instead of driving innovation forward, they shy away of the problems that introducing such innovation could have. Instead it seems the industry relies on shaming innovators for the issues of first generation future tech. This reminds me a lot of Steve Ballmer mocking the first iPhone: https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U The most likely outcome is that they will figure it out, and much earlier than any of their competitors.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  Buying off the shelf parts is not innovation. Especially when they are not suited to purpose and you ignore the vendor's own reliability figures.
  - naikrovek 7y ago
    They did preliminary testing and the displays worked fine. Elon made a judgement call to give the go-ahead. His rationale being that no automotive grade screens that size we're available because no one did any testing on them. It was only real-world exposure that revealed the mistake in part choice. Did you RTFA? Edit: ooh I'm so scared. Use ALL your alternate accounts to down vote me! Or, you could discuss where I'm wrong like a 12-year old.
    - Phillipharryt 7y ago
      Do you really think people are using alt accounts (a pain to get enough karma to allow downvoting on here) or could it just be they disagree with you making claims that aren't in the article? It doesn't say anything about Musk's rationale.

bcatanzaro 7y ago

I have one of these yellow screens on my Model S. Tesla told me twice over the past 3 months they would be replacing it under warranty very soon. I'm disappointed to hear they're walking this back.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
I also have a Model S with this occurring on my v2 MCU. I was told by a service tech they were collecting VINs, and would have a fix available this year. I opted out of arbitration when I took delivery of the vehicle, so I intend to sue in small claims court to have it replaced if Tesla does not perform the repair as a warranty claim. Waiting for a fix I'm fine with. Being stuck with it in a $100k car that is less than a year old I am not.
- vtail 7y ago
  Could you please share tips on how you opted out of arbitration? I’m waiting for my M3 to be delivered, and would like to understand the pros and cons. I’m in CA, US if that matters.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8vxnz0/psa_for_us_buyers_arbitration_clause/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8vxnz0/psa_for... I paid the $6 and sent mine USPS certified return receipt just to be sure. I recommend you do the same.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    IIRC you have 30 days after the vehicle's delivery to send Tesla a letter saying you want to opt out (include your vehicle's VIN, and it probably doesn't hurt to use a certified letter).
- symmitchry 7y ago
  Honest question: I'm surprised at such a hard stance against what I perceive to be an "early adopter" product. Did you not feel that buying a Tesla was a gamble?

akozak 7y ago

What's the argument against just relying on "cabin overheat protection" to keep the climate in spec? Seems like that would solve a lot of their supply chain limitations at once with relatively minimal battery drain - though it does seem wasteful to spend energy keeping electronics comfy in the sun.

whymsicalburito 7y ago
I would expect to be able to leave my car in a parking lot for a week or two (unplugged) and still be able to drive away when I return. I feel like with overheat protection the battery would be dead by the time I got back.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Overheat protection deactivates when the battery pack reaches 20% state of charge. EVs are a bit of a different model; whenever parking for long periods, I endeavor to find a lot that lets me plug in, even if it's 120V 15A (which is enough to keep the cabin cool and the battery somewhat conditioned, although not enough to charge if both of the previously mentioned activities are occurring). Haven't had an airport or long term parking lot yet I could not find an approved outlet or EV charger for my use, but YMMV. @leggomylibro: To reply to your deleted comment, you asked if the vehicle needed 1800W to keep itself conditioned but not maintain state of charge. It's closer to 1440W, as a 15A 120V circuit is derated to 12A (80%) for continuous duty cycle. Coolant pumps can be power hungry! @akozak: I believe it is Tesla specific. I am unaware of the feature being present on other EVs.
  - akozak 7y ago
    I'm guessing that's Tesla specific? My Bolt doesn't have (afaik) an automatic cabin conditioning feature so I've never thought about it. Presumably Chevy built it with parts on spec to handle heat.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - 7y ago

Rebelgecko 7y ago

SpaceX has had similar issues with using industrial grade parts in situations where their competitors typically use aerospace grade ones [1]. Although in their case the failures are a bit more visually spectacular than some yellow stripes [2] [1]: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_summary_nasa_irt_spacex_crs-7_final.pdf https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m

Dylan16807 7y ago
They did a whole batch of testing and a bunch of those struts failed at similarly abysmal fractions of rated load. Is that really "industrial grade"?
- icegreentea2 7y ago
  I mean, that was part of NASA's investigation conclusions. The design error wasn't using an industrially rated part, it was using it without proper screening, testing, and failure to follow manufacturer recommended safety margin. One of the purposes of using the "right rated" parts is that you get to off-load some of the testing and screening that you might otherwise wish to do to a component vendor (who is better equipped to absorb the price of testing, and because they have tighter integration with manufacturing, a better ability to achieve specifications). Like I totally get the idea of using lower cost components. But sometimes they are actually the solution. And sometimes finding the problem is incredibly expensive, if not in $$$, then at least in PR. Americans love to shit on gold plating, but they also love to shit on greedy corporations minimizing the bottom line.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  The manufacturer suggested a load factor of 4x. Most industries probably don't subject their hunks of stainless steel to temperatures of -300°F. Cast parts also have a tendency to be more brittle when exposed to certain types of forces.
  - 7y ago

sara7262 7y ago

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thrower123 7y ago

A car with any kind of touchscreen for anything but non-essential functions is a huge red flag for me. Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me. I think it is incredibly unsafe that things like heat and radio controls have been shifted to non-tactile touch inputs, rather than analog buttons and knobs. But I am an old fogey that keeps at least one hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road.

CarVac 7y ago
That's what steering wheel controls are for.
- ddingus 7y ago
  Maybe. Depends on how modal they are. The primary issue with touch is the difficulty many people have using it by feel, and or "muscle memory" alone. Typically, one needs to identify the UX element desired, then touch, and then often verify the thing happened or select after that. Where it is modal, another whole layer of that interaction is needed, and or driver needs to retain more state info. "Which screen is it on, and is it currently available for me to use?" Steering wheel controls can be better, but many of those do toggle through various modes and the driver needs to glance at a small screen in the dash cluster. Doing that is generally superior to a touch only UX though. On many cars, low importance functions are clumped into these kinds of UX. Higher order things get their own control. I drive a lot of different cars. New, old, and Tesla. I thought the Tesla was spiffy, but did not think much of the big touch panel for reasons I have given here. My very favorite drives are on cars with great controls, and all of it working with dim interior lighting. Just enough to see what needs to be seen, the rest easily operated in a tactile way, night vision intact. This is not to say touch is not useful in cars. I think it can be and is. This is to say touch has a very long way to go before it begins to seriously challenge well designed buttons, levers and switches.
romwell 7y ago
> Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me. At least Toyota Avalons do it in a smart way: the display for the back-up camera is embedded in the rear-view mirror. You can only see it when you are backing up.

neya 7y ago

The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It worked really, really well for a long time. And then, summer came, I got the magic smoke from my unit. Turns out, the amplifier IC died. But, I did more research as amplifiers were actually supposed to heat up and I had cooling fans in place. What killed it wasn't the heat, but the sudden variations in temperature - Eg. when you use A/C for a while and leave your car in the hot sun. The manufacturer literally recommended to use the automotive grade version of the IC for in-car usage. Silly me. In the end, I never really got to finish the project because of the rabbit hole it became. But remember, I'm a hobbyist. I have an electronics background, but that's about it. To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. I mean, I like Musk and the work he's doing, but this doesn't seem right (just a personal opinion). I hope the customers don't have to bear this for Tesla's mistake.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago
"Move fast and break things" works for software you deploy on your infrastructure since you can always make changes quickly at very little cost. Website 5 pixels off? Make a CSS change and roll it out to your systems. To execute the same thing with hardware credibly, you have to accept the idea of a mass recall and replacement of faulty parts. That works for many companies like Anker, which goes out of their way and proactively replaces parts. You can't apply the software deployment model and be nonchalant and brusque when customer issues arise. The combination just serves to turn off the masses.
colechristensen 7y ago
I would assume it's because there is little cross-pollination between modern tech workers and automotive focused engineers. It explains why most cars' user-facing electronics are so terrible and why Tesla made such an obvious quality mistake.
- dymk 7y ago
  This seems different than Tesla simply overlooking a quality requirement because of a lack of communication. This is the top of the top, Musk himself, saying "screw that quality requirement, this is good enough", and plowing forward regardless (and having it bite them later). Who knows how many other components they were able to cut corners with for now. And how many will start to fail in the coming years.

jcfrei 7y ago

Great article. These appear to be the exact kind of engineering lessons you would expect a new company like Tesla to learn the hard way. And it explains why incumbent car manufacturers might seem less innovative on the surface.

femto113 7y ago

I've long wished for a "slot your iPad in here" solution for this sort of thing. Sure it might not stand up to automotive grade punishment, but you can remove it when leaving the car in the sun and if it breaks it is easy to replace and much cheaper than custom parts (thanks to Apple's economies of scale).

noelsusman 7y ago
I wonder if iPads could hold up to all that vibration.
- qball 7y ago
  To be fair, they technically already do when you take it with yours with you somewhere. As long as the mounting plate is sufficiently isolated from the rest of the car's movement, they shouldn't need to suffer any vibration in excess of what they'd endure under normal use and transport conditions. Of course, it's still a better situation for consumers: if the iPad does die, you can replace it that same day with an off the shelf part (or you plug your phone in for that day instead), it's trivially expensive compared to what head units of similar type cost (it's actually even cheaper if you can use a bargain-basement 50-dollar Android tablet instead of an iPad), and it's something that you can upgrade as you get the money to do so. Plus, it also heavily discourages manufacturers from pulling a Tesla and refusing to start your car before you update the infotainment software, which is also a shockingly anti-consumer trend.
jstandard 7y ago
I've worked on "Bring Your Own Device" concepts together with Honda.[1] There are plenty of wins for consumers in this type of setup. Automakers have taken notice that people are using their phones for an increasing share of infotainment functions. The tough, time-consuming parts are working through the supply chain to build out the connectivity and "happy coexistence" of phone and car. Also, I've yet to find a UX which blends physical, voice, and touchscreen controls while accounting for their strengths, weaknesses, and learnability. Tesla included. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg

modeless 7y ago

This person has taken the wrong lesson from the story. The actual moral of this story is that the auto industry is too conservative and being a little less conservative allows you to build one of the best cars in the world. So a few touchscreens have yellow lines. The Tesla touchscreen is still clearly better than any other car's touchscreen and if they'd done it this guy's way they wouldn't have been able to ship it at all because the part simply wasn't available then.

chipotle_coyote 7y ago
Sorry, but if you're going to design a car that replaces not just the infotainment system, not just the climate controls, but the entire instrument console with a touchscreen, then it would seem to me one of the places you absolutely do not want to cut corners on is...the touchscreen. "One of the best cars in the world" is obviously subjective, and there are some ways in which Tesla is absolutely leading. But all of the innovation on display in Teslas don't earn them a free pass on build quality issues.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Is it fair to say they “cut corners”? They bought the best screen available at the time at size they wanted, and then tested it in-house. It’s not like the screen has terrible specs, but it is not rated to operate at 130°C. So they tried adding software to keep the cabin below 50°C even when the car is parked, but either it doesn’t work all the time or people turn the feature off, of someone is parked in the sun long enough to run the battery below 20%. The trade off was a higher rate of warranty repairs in order to build the car they wanted to build. I think in the case of the Model 3, partially how they solved it is through special glass they used above the front seats. I’ve been wondering why the glass is so unique above the front seats but not the same tint for the rest of the roof glass. It’s very interesting — water droplets on the glass above the front seats look almost blood red. Now I’m guessing it’s filtering to block IR or other solar gain which might otherwise burn out the screen. https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76 https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76
  - 7y ago

castratikron 7y ago

Apparently these Teslas log to the eMMC so much that after a few years the part wears out. The screen goes black and the car falls back into limp mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q

sschueller 7y ago
I saw that as well and I find that scarry. Something so basic that should never happen. I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day.
- qball 7y ago
  >I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day. https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg This WILL kill someone. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when, and it's intentional. Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail cell, or maybe they won't- but the fact of the matter is that the presence of this "feature" is negligence at best, much like this case where bricking your car when something unrelated to its core functionality dies.
  - sschueller 7y ago
    > Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail cell Sadly I highly doubt that and if someone goes to jail it will be some poor engineer that was forced the implement it that way. Just look at what happened to Uber after they actually killed someone with their self-driving car because of their disregard for safety from the top in order to save time and money. Next up, Boeing.
    - hef19898 7y ago
      Especially the Boeing case shocks me. Uber is a start-up, so their culture is different. Boeing on the other hand, well they are old school aerospace and violated their own hard learned lessons here.

catchmeifyoucan 7y ago

I think this is fine if the failure to success ratio is low for the parts. Especially given that the failure here refers to failing pixels and doesn't compromise safety. Some quick math, if an industrial part costs $10, and an automotive part costs $20, then for ten cars you save $100. Assuming that 20% of all your cars are faulty, that's a $80 savings translation. With the remaining money, you could spend $40 on R&D for a screen at the same price point with higher reliability and still come out on top. However, at some point, you will reach a time where the number of replacements that don't justify the design. For a bootstrapped company, I don't think it's a bad bet, but it is time critical to find an alternative before they start losing money.

vel0city 7y ago
While this might be true, you then possibly have a very noisy 20% previous customer base who may or may not buy your car again, and if noisy enough might convince others your designs are shoddy and are not worth the premium price tag you're trying to sell them for. Brands are not worth nothing.
- catchmeifyoucan 7y ago
  Agreed, that this may not be a win for brand loyalty.
int_19h 7y ago
This may have been a reasonable argument if they considered it to fall under warranty, and replace it for free when it fails.

ec109685 7y ago

The Tesla Model S we've had since 2015 hasn't had any problems with its screen, despite being driven in California. This article's conclusion was strange. Without that Touch Screen, none of what makes Tesla a Tesla would have been a problem since it would have been controlled with un-upgradeable knobs, switches and buttons. I agree with the comments here that Tesla should make it right for the customers though.

cma 7y ago
Do you park it in a garage or out in the sun?
- ec109685 7y ago
  Garage mostly, but not exclusively. I have never worried about this.
int_19h 7y ago
Tesla is not the only car with a touchscreen. OTOH physical knobs and switches are much easier to operate without looking at them. Which is particularly important in a car.

Marsymars 7y ago

Cars are a tough environment for electronics. Asides from the other examples mentioned in the article, my Ford's monochrome non-touch LCD turns into an illegibly garbled mess in the cold (below -20°C) until the car warms up.

taneq 7y ago
I've seen this same effect a lot when talking about Teslas. Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices, laziness, and general lack of care or professionalism, whereas an identical failure on the part of an established manufacturer is shrugged off as "oh well, sometimes parts fail." (Take the issue with fires, for instance - Teslas catch fire far less frequently than conventional cars, but every time it happens it's global front-page news.)
- netsharc 7y ago
  > Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices If this article is accurate (let's assume it is, those quotes from Musk will get the lawyers coming so fast if they were false), then it just proved that this actually is the case! Their arrogance that "pah, who needs automotive grade?" has now come back to bite them in the ass...
- GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
  True. But another Tesla burst into flames in Hong Kong: https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-flames-in-hong-kong/ https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-fla... Parked gas cars don't usually burst into flames.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    Google returns 2.4M results for: Parked car burst into flames "mercedes" -tesla -bmw 1M for Parked car burst into flames "tesla" -mercedes -bmw 0.5M for Parked car burst into flames "bmw" -mercedes -tesla Unscientific I know but surely an indication that at least some parked cars do burst into flames. Not usually I'll grant you, but a bit more frequently than one might think.

ajross 7y ago

Read to the final paragraph: > In fairness, other automakers have had issues with touchscreens as well. Just last year, Ford settled a class action lawsuit over a host of problems with its MyFordTouch systems and had previously extended warranty coverage for its SYNC systems. Cadillac had to recently revamp its CUE touchscreen system after numerous issues including "the dreaded spiderweb cracks." But [like, it's totally different for Tesla for reasons not having anything to do with screens or reliability][1]" Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis. The auto industry hates them so much... [1] Paraphrased.

emptyfile 7y ago
>Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis. All screens suck but only one manufacturer put their entire control panel in the screen... so yeah...
- ajross 7y ago
  Right, so the whole "...shows why automotive grade matters" is a complete fabrication. All screens suck. The article spends a ton of words on why the particular panel Tesla picked was bad just to take it all back and pull a switcheroo to a design critique instead. In the last paragraph! That's not honest journalism.
  - cma 7y ago
    What you're saying is several out of hundreds of different automotive grade screens had problems too. And one out of one non-automotive grade screen (Tesla's) also had problems. Not a large enough sample size, but things look statistically better for the automotive grade ones.
Traster 7y ago
It's disingenuous to take "X has big problems, Y have some problems" and just whitewash it with "Basically the whole alphabet sucks". No, screens are hard and some do a better job than others.

continuational 7y ago

Can somebody point to a definition of the word "Saga" that isn't ... related to vikings? I see it more and more and it's confusing me.

culturestate 7y ago
What’s confusing? Sagas were long, epic stories and now we use the term colloquially (sometimes hyperbolically) to describe complex events that occur over a long period of time.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

sidcool 7y ago

Tesla may not be the greatest company ever, but it's certainly not a fraud. I think we should move on from that point if view. The I immense pressure from shorters and fossil fuel lobby should have destroyed Tesla by now. But here they are, surviving. If Tesla were to go bankrupt this year, I would still call it a successful company.

Traster 7y ago
The problem is that there's a massive gulf between fraud and successful company. If Ford put Tesla's display in their latest vehicle people would be going nuts about the fact Ford shipped such an unreliable item. Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners. This is exactly the same attitude the early years of Uber had. They'll certainly get away with cutting these corners in the short term, but in the long term it's dishonest and it's not a sustainable way of doing business.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
  >Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners Do you know that almost all (if not all) other auto-manufacturers made the calculation that they better lie to their customers about the emissions coming out of their cars? Who's really cutting more corners?

kwhitefoot 7y ago

The problem with this article and many others on similar subjects is that there isn't any real information about the prevalence of the problems that they describe. Without that it's pretty much just angry bluster whether they are describing problems in a Tesla or a Mercedes. Is it one screen in a million that fails or one in ten? There is no way of telling from the article.

dangrossman 7y ago
As Tesla has only manufactured 150-200K Model S's to date and the article cites multiple owners, you can definitively say the observed failures are not one in a million.

scarejunba 7y ago

> ...despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down... I've been in hotter places than that as a child and my organs are still functioning. Not that convincing a tale, got to be honest.

ummonk 7y ago
That is the internal body temperature at which the organs will start shutting down, but external (e.g. cabin) temperature can obviously go higher without issues. Kind of disingenuous from the author.
greenpresident 7y ago
It's a reference to fever temperatures. Internal body temp != ambient air temp.

_ph_ 7y ago

If you google the authors name "Edward Niedermeyer", you can find out that he has a history of bad-mouthing Tesla in a long series of blog posts. So I would take any allegations made by him with extreme care.

dchest 7y ago
Oh, he's still doing that? Amazing. https://twitter.com/dchest/status/741198400838860800?s=19 https://twitter.com/dchest/status/741198400838860800?s=19
stonogo 7y ago
He bad-mouths everyone. He's an analyst, not a cheerleader.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Which means, that his publications shouldn't be mistaken for journalism.

gnachman 7y ago

I called Tesla service in December because of both displays delaminating. They said they’d call me back, which of course they never did. This explains it, I guess.

Animats 7y ago

It's not surprising they had problems with a large screen. Large multilayered sandwiches of different materials have thermal expansion problems. Not everything will expand at the same rate, which means internal stresses as temperature cycles. Large size means the difference in length across the longest dimension will be much larger than for a small device. This breaks bonds and seals. Solar panels have the same problem, and they have "expansion joints" to deal with it.[1] Hard to do that for one seamless screen. [1] https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-arrays/thermal-expansion-and-thermal-stresses https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-arrays/therm...

EastSmith 7y ago

So Tesla is selling: - electric vehicles - long range - self driving - big screens I really wish they or somebody else focus on just the first two parts - long range electric cars. No need for the AI or other fancy stuff.

dgzl 7y ago
Do you think that by not giving a large touch-panel display, the car with become more efficient?
- EastSmith 7y ago
  It will definitely have one less problem as the article points out. I also have a small touch infotainment screen in my car. Works great for calls, music and navigation - that is all what I need it to do. I have not had a single problem with it for about 4 years.
mcv 7y ago
Agreed. Don't try to tackle every problem at once; tackle the most important ones first, do the nice-to-haves later.

Reason077 7y ago

I have an iPhone 6 which once had a third-party screen installed to replace a cracked one. The replacement screen looked great at first - indistinguishable from the original one. But over time it has developed exactly the same issue: a yellow band/border/ring around the outside of the screen. I wonder if this is a wider issue within the LCD industry, rather than just being specific to Tesla.

londons_explore 7y ago
Yes, it's an issue with oxygen and moisture sealing the edge of the screen. The yellowing will happen to all screens eventually, just heat speeds it up a lot.

kkarakk 7y ago

All i know is that now when i see a car without a massive touchscreen in it i end up thinking "really? in 2019? what should i pay 80 grand for a backwards POS?" now i know why these screens aren't more prevalent but still...tesla's dashboard looks superslick

yitchelle 7y ago

I hope that Tesla's attitude to using robust engineering principles does not end up causing large amount of injuries or deaths. It is not just in the cars that they produce, it is also the way their factories are run as well.