12 ms·

Openpilot – open-source self-driving agent

262 points by boramalper 7y ago

rightbyte 7y ago
This is stupid. All the demos are on public roads. George Hortz needs to chill before he ends up in jail.
- aphextron 7y ago
  >This is stupid. All the demos are on public roads. George Hortz needs to chill before he ends up in jail. There are literally thousands of community members using this software on a daily basis, driving thousands of miles in real life situations daily. I've been commuting to work with it for 3 months now and it's the most lifechanging piece of tech I've come across since the iPhone. I get on the highway, engage the system, and sit back sipping my coffee for the next 45 minutes. It costs $800 to get fully setup with an EON/Panda/Giraffe and almost every Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai since 2017 is now supported. Check out some of the videos on youtube and you'll want one too.
  - mayniac 7y ago
    >I get on the highway, engage the system, and sit back sipping my coffee for the next 45 minutes. Please, do not do this.
    - aphextron 7y ago
      >Please, do not do this. I get that people are unable to comprehend the fact that true level 2 autonomy is here and ready to use, but it is. It's perfectly safe to sit back completely disengaged from the controls on OpenPilot, so long as your eyes are on the road (which the software enforces with head tracking). Any sort of situation that could require you to take control is warned in advance.
      - mayniac 7y ago
        >Any sort of situation that could require you to take control is warned in advance. And what about false negatives, where something happens but it doesn't warn you? The fact that comma.ai pulled out of releasing the comma one when the NHTSA asked them some fairly basic questions is a massive red flag. They can't even guarantee that openpilot will detect low slung trailers or motorcycles [1]. If they want to develop and release autonomous cars of any level they should be going through proper procedures and regulations, not just sticking a "for research purposes only" sticker on everything and distancing themselves from any responsibility. There are far, far too many unknown unknowns when it comes to autonomous vehicles. If you're already forced to keep your eyes on the road, stop being lazy and do everyone around you a favour: grip the steering wheel, keep your feet on the pedals, and focus on the road. [1] https://opc.ai/faqs/does-openpilot-see-people-animals-motorcycles-low-slung-trailers-plastic-bags-baby-strollers-or-other-objects-on-the-road-wvmsxx https://opc.ai/faqs/does-openpilot-see-people-animals-motorc...
        aphextron 7y ago
        > If you're already forced to keep your eyes on the road, stop being lazy and do everyone around you a favour: grip the steering wheel, keep your feet on the pedals, and focus on the road. You do that, and I'll continue enjoying my self driving car.
        jensvdh 7y ago
        Until it kills an innocent pedestrian. What are you gonna do then?
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    This is extremely reckless
    - aphextron 7y ago
      >This is extremely reckless I find driving without it to be reckless at this point. Humans are susceptible to distraction, OpenPilot is not.
      - Piskvorrr 7y ago
        That might be the elephant in the room: contemporary driving is reckless _to begin with_. Autonomous assists are bringing this to light - not necessarily making it more or less reckless.
    - tjpnz 7y ago
      No more reckless than doing the same with Tesla Autopilot.
- gjs278 7y ago
  you need to chill. he will not go to jail for writing software and releasing it. the fact that you think it’s ok to jail people for programming makes me want to throw you in the gulag instead.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  It's unlikely he chills until someone dies or property in excess of hundreds of thousands of dollars is damaged, and an attorney pursues him personally. A hacker ethos is no defense against a personal judgement you can never repay in a lifetime. Unlike most judgments, punitive damages awards are not dischargeable in bankruptcy as long as the relevant cause of action was based upon willful actions. The audience won't be a room full of domain experts, but a jury of twelve.
  - snazz 7y ago
    No Tesla programmers have been arrested for Autopilot-related crashes.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Tesla makes it extremely clear to its users what the shared responsibility model is for Autopilot features (through warning messages at each Autopilot engagement and in the user's manual for all Tesla vehicles), and has general counsel on staff to reinforce this through legal actions indemnifying their staff. Openpilot is a drastically different model. It is a software breadboard for your own vehicle. For example, this is laughable (from the repo): (Top) > openpilot is an open source driving agent. Currently, it performs the functions of Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Lane Keeping Assist System (LKAS) for selected Honda, Toyota, Acura, Lexus, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Kia. It's about on par with Tesla Autopilot and GM Super Cruise, and better than all other manufacturers. (Bottom) > THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY.
      - djsumdog 7y ago
        I remember Germany regulators wanted Tesla to stop branding it as "auto-pilot" when really their features are more like Lane Assist and Adaptive Cruse that many other vehicles have. Also, Tesla's have had their share of issues (the car that ran into an off-ram barrier killing the driver, the guy who was passed out for hours before his Tesla crashed), but they're also a large enough company they've probably settled some or all of these cases out of court.
      - 7y ago
- lixtra 7y ago
  One side of me agrees, the other thinks of the Wright brothers. Oh wait, they got someone killed.
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    He did? Wow, I have never heard this story: https://www.thoughtco.com/the-first-fatal-airplane-crash-1779178 https://www.thoughtco.com/the-first-fatal-airplane-crash-177... ..he killed an Army Lt during a demonstration, and took some pretty bad injuries to himself.
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    Ye, it is cool. How ever, I feel there's a huge difference between pioneering flying and risking the general public's lives to feed your proprietary machine learning model. Because Hortz hasen't released that part of the software right? Last time I checked it was still closed source.
  - HALtheWise 7y ago
    I am genuinely interested, do you think that the Wright Brothers should not have developed the technology that they did because of the risk that someone would get killed? I am having trouble imagining any way (at least at the time, but probably today as well) of inventing manned flight without anybody dying in the process.
    - amptorn 7y ago
      Inventing manned flight without anybody dying would have been completely possible. Use more caution, pay more attention to safety. But that's not the right hypothetical. This is inventing manned flight without endangering or killing innocent bystanders.
    - lixtra 7y ago
      I don’t think anything is possible risk free. So it comes down to your/societies risk tolerance how save, expensive and slow or risky, cheap and fast progress should be. Ideally the risk is taken by conscious and free individuals. But yes, bystanders will be hit as well. For manned flight it was totally worth the risk.
lukeqsee 7y ago
One side of me thinks this is really, really cool. The other side is running away as fast as possible. If anything shouldn't be developed by committee, it's something that controls a few thousand pounds hurtling down the highway at 70MPH with at best an observant human watching over it. Here's my reasoning: Mistakes in Django? Bad things happen. Mistakes in the Linux kernel? Potentially really bad things happen. Mistakes in self-driving cars? Really bad things certainly happen. Oh…and it looks like anyone can install it with just a few extra electronic parts?
- petters 7y ago
  What's the alternative for something as complex as self-driving system?
- rightbyte 7y ago
  Of course it's extremely cool. I wish this existed when I was in uni and we built self driving prototypes. I also remember how often we messed up completely and would have killed our self if it weren't for us driving at 10 km/h on closed off air strips. The thing is how this project explicitly tells people to use it is way over the line. "THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED." This is not going to help Hortz or the other programmers in the project when the government is coming for them.
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    This would have been great for the DARPA team back in grad school. But yes, even back then our DARPA crew limited car speed to 10mph during a lot of the initial work, and it was either out in the old football field or the campus police would let us tape off the parking lot in the engineering building on weekends. Even as far as the open source tech has come, videos fulling explaining how to use this in production on real roads is pretty irresponsible; especially since there are no warnings in the videos and no claims of liability.
- djsumdog 7y ago
useful 7y ago
Cool, I'd really like to use this for a small scale toy car. I'd never put it on something that could do more than bruise an ankle.
- kyle_martin1 7y ago
  I have two recommendations for you Duckietown (https://www.duckietown.org https://www.duckietown.org) and AWS DeepRacer (https://aws.amazon.com/deepracer https://aws.amazon.com/deepracer). Hope that helps! ------- If you want to get more serious about robotics then check out my website https://becomeautonomous.com https://becomeautonomous.com
  - JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
    Also: https://www.donkeycar.com/ https://www.donkeycar.com/
    - diyrobocars 7y ago
      Also https://diyrobocars.com https://diyrobocars.com and https://diyrobocars.com.au https://diyrobocars.com.au in Australia. If anybody wants an invite to our Slack group and our "Hack and Race" meetups, send an email with your location to the address on my profile.
czr 7y ago
For those who haven't seen Openpilot before, or recently: * George Hotz (not "Hortz") is working on other stuff now [0], and is no longer CEO. * While "I'm running open-source self-driving software from GitHub" sounds terrifying, the software is very good at what it does, which is very limited (LKAS / ACC / driver monitoring). Browsing test videos on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openpilot+0.5 https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openpilot+0.5) is a good way to get an impression for how well it works; the consensus I've found is that it's better and safer than any stock systems except Tesla AP and Super Cruise. [0] http://pixie.tech http://pixie.tech
- hsikka 7y ago
  Damn, I was actually planning on applying to Comma for an internship because George Hotz was there, just to see if I could learn anything from him.
  - evilolive 7y ago
    I've toyed with the idea of applying to comma, seemed like a good idea to learn tons in computer vision. but if anything Hotz himself would be why I wouldn't do it. I enjoy the roots of his f u attitude - but : we're so much smarter than anyone else in this market, is simply not true
- syntaxing 7y ago
  I knew he stepped down but I didn't know he was starting a new venture already. Is there any indication what the new venture is about? The site doesn't say much unfortunately.
  - czr 7y ago
    Per the site and his instagram [0], it's an AR thing of some sort. He was playing around with a North Star prototype [1] on stream a few days ago [2]. But it's still very early–if he actually sticks with this project I imagine it will be at least few months before anything substantial is announced. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw3GEQNHywS/ https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw3GEQNHywS/ [1] https://developer.leapmotion.com/northstar https://developer.leapmotion.com/northstar [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQBlUvejWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQBlUvejWc
solarkraft 7y ago
How funny that this pops up just a few hours after I looked into it again. It's an exciting product. Even if it has no direct use, I feel better being driven around by an open piece of software that I could in theory inspect and change. Closed-source stuff is just a black box expected to do magic. Doesn't feel good. The story behind the man is quite interesting as well. When I was 9 he was the guy I got the jailbreaks from that would allow me to install cool tweaks and other non-standard software Apple wouldn't allow on my iPod Touch 3G. Apart from this, I think this rap [https://youtu.be/9iUvuaChDEg https://youtu.be/9iUvuaChDEg] he published when he was sued by Sony for allowing alternative operating systems to be installed onto the PlayStation 3 demonstrates his attitude quite well (admittedly the self driving situation is more complicated, but what a response to a law suit). You might guess that I'm still a GeoHot fan. While I'm not sure this will be competitive with commercial systems in the future, I'd love it. Having the world's best self driving system be free for everyone to inspect and use in their cars would be a societal gain similar to that of Linux. Open Pilot will be the only self driving system retrofittable to older cars (by consumers themselves), which is already very cool (it's just unfortunate that none of the cars are old enough for me to consider buying). I wish them the best of luck (and may they get the tests to a level at which everyone is happy with them).
- rightbyte 7y ago
  "Closed-source stuff is just a black box expected to do magic" Open Pilot is about as much black box as all the other self driving applications. The interfacing is open source. The machine learning is closed source. I've looked into the repos and didn't find any sign of the actual hard self driving parts, as it were last time I checked comma.ai. But sure, you can tune the steering P-controller for your Subaro if you would like too. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/car/subaru/carcontroller.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/ca... apply_steer = apply_std_steer_torque_limits(apply_steer, self.apply_steer_last, CS.steer_torque_driver, P) Or maybe you can patch using "volatile int" for thread concurrency in the machine model inerface (I guess it is that). https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/visiond/visiond.cc https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/vi...
kyle_martin1 7y ago
I work as a lead autonomous vehicle engineer. Here's a few thoughts: * This isn't really open-source. The most important part, the neural network perception pipeline, is closed sourced. Without the training data and the network architectures, the supporting code is not that useful. * This system is non-deterministic, which is a no-no in critical systems like autonomous vehicle. There's no guarantee that vehicle detection or throttle/brake commands will be executed on a acceptably safe timeline. * I think the supporting tools like Panda and Giraffe are great for those wanting to get into car hacking. ------------------------------------------------ By the way, if you want to to become an autonomous vehicle engineer I put together a resource guide here: https://becomeautonomous.com https://becomeautonomous.com
- ebg13 7y ago
  > The most important part, the neural network perception pipeline, is closed sourced. Knowing what things are is certainly a part, and it may be the least solved part, but surely there is a lot of value in rolling everything else that goes into autonomous driving into a car-pluggable package. Trivial setup for sensing, fusing, actuating, and thrusting is pretty big for most people even if you don't get to see the more fuzzy stuff.
- holoduke 7y ago
  What do you mean it's non deterministic? Because it is using floating point operations? Can you elaborate?
  - pkulak 7y ago
    Not a real-time OS?
    - Lorkki 7y ago
      Yep, it seems built to run on NEOS, which is an Android distribution: https://github.com/commaai/neo https://github.com/commaai/neo
  - nialv7 7y ago
mgraczyk 7y ago
I worked on Openpilot for around a year. Although many of the "cool" parts are not open source, there are still lots of interesting goodies in there worth checking out. For example, there is a semi-standalone CAN processing library: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/can https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/ca... A shitload of hacks and workarounds that make the system work on dozens of cars: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/car https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/ca... Saving state on devices that arbitrary drop successful file writes when the battery dies. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/params.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/param...
- choppaface 7y ago
  The value is definitely in the platform-relevant hacks. Stuff like this makes the reader think the authors have never seen a basic transactional database before: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/params.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/param...
aphextron 7y ago
I've been using Openpilot in my 2018 Corolla for the past few months. Some takeaways: It's mind-blowingly good. Easily on par with Autopilot (That is, Autopilot's ACTUAL capabilities, not what they show in marketing promos). For long highway trips, it's easy to go hours without a disengagement. The full setup costs about $800, is completely plug-and-play, and you can order everything you need on the site (EON/Panda/Giraffe). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfF9l2-orTk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfF9l2-orTk There's a huge active community working on adding support for more cars and even custom forks with more advanced features like dynamic follow. Someone even recently got a VW bus working with it. https://discordapp.com/invite/avCJxEX https://discordapp.com/invite/avCJxEX Also it's just really freaking cool to have a self driving Corolla. Can't stress how much this thing has changed the way I view driving and going places. It's no longer a pain, but a joy to sit in stop and go traffic. It's not perfect, but it's pushing the border of level 3 autonomy and far better than anything that any manufacturer besides Tesla is shipping.
- jakecopp 7y ago
  I had no idea the software was in use and this stable! Is the discord community the best way to follow progress or are there other resources?
  - aphextron 7y ago
    >I had no idea the software was in use and this stable! Is the discord community the best way to follow progress or are there other resources? Yep, the Discord is super active and there's plenty of people to help you out if you hit any snags. But the hardware is super easy to install and ready to go if you have a compatible car. There's also a lot of active Youtubers like ku7 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXmUBvIuFLjLRuJ0mX298Ng https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXmUBvIuFLjLRuJ0mX298Ng) and arne (https://www.youtube.com/user/arneschwarck https://www.youtube.com/user/arneschwarck) that are building their own forks.
    - wocsor 7y ago
      i'm surprised i didn't get mentioned, since I have a fork dedicated to the Corolla. but yes the system is actually in use and comma have logged over 10 million miles already. on top of that, the Discord community reports any and all accidents and none have been due to openpilot. there have been a few accidents were people got rear-ended or sideswiped, but fortunately there has never been an accident with the system engaged or due to openpilot.
Bendingo 7y ago
This seems mind bogglingly dangerous. At least with commercial self-driving vehicles, there is a responsible legal entity (the car manufacturer). The thought of thousands of amateurs and enthusiasts releasing their hacked self-driving cars on the public roads is terrifying. The disclaimer "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS" is nice, but I can't that stopping the mindset of "I've just tweaked the algorithm a bit; let's see how it goes".
- mayniac 7y ago
  The video[1] says (verbatim): >OpenPilot allows you to be driving hands free and feet free for long periods of time without intervention. Holy fucking shit no. This is completely reckless. If they want their code to be used for research purposes, then set up a site with contact information which researches can use to get a copy of the source code. Having YouTube videos saying "buy this hardware, hook it up to your car and now it's self-driving" (yes they say self-driving in the description) is in no way responsible. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOIin4p70w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOIin4p70w
- stale2002 7y ago
  There is nothing illegal about modifying your own car. People have been doing so since cars were invented. "Amateur" car modifications are already very wide spread.
  - mwfunk 7y ago
    Sure there is, depending on what you’re doing and where you live. There’s all sorts of things you could do that would make a vehicle no longer street legal and/or a danger to yourself and others. And I would hope people would take the latter very seriously, even if what they’re doing isn’t illegal.
    - stale2002 7y ago
      And nothing described here makes a vehicle no longer street legal. This stuff is well within the realm of perfectly legal car modifications.
jaimex2 7y ago
Seems like a neat project to get auto-steer driver assist going on a car that supports it. It's basically a Tesla Autopilot 1 ( Mobileye ) mod.
neilv 7y ago
In the first video, the voiceover tells people to buy&install the hardware, and use this software, while showing what appears to be autonomous driving among other vehicles on an active public road. (Not "This is for research only, from the privacy and safety of your own driveway.") Who thinks this is a good idea? Where in the US is this legal? In a crash, will insurance cover it, and will there be additional civil liability and possible criminal charges?
caafka 7y ago
By the way, the CEO of comma.ai will speak at Big Data & AI conference in Dallas, June 27-29, 2019. https://bigdataaiconference.com https://bigdataaiconference.com.
Jemm 7y ago
This is going to be an interesting legal case when a vehicle using Openpilot is involved in an accident.
k0dede 7y ago
scifi idea: stop making cars, train only
rnotaro 7y ago
Are the main maintainers French-Canadian? I noticed that a lot of demos were filmed in the province of Québec.
zarrobyte 7y ago
I work in AI for general usage applications. I think that there's some valid criticism here, although I don't think the target demographic is kept well in mind when considering the project as a whole. In the current iteration, a majority of commercial market consumers wouldn't be skilled enough to perform the installation properly, or at the least, adequately to achieve acceptable system performance. I think that the barrier to entry is just high enough to keep Cousin Vinny from sleeping in the back of his cab while his "self driving truck" got him from A to B. I've personally purchased a vehicle with the explicit reason to install OP after learning of Comma back in 2015. It's been one of the funnest, and most rewarding personal projects I've taken on. I never drive with my hands far from the wheel, or my eyes off the road. While there is certainly going to be some hyperbole surrounding new technology, my assessment is that this alpha quality, DIY solution has been adequate for my use cases over the last 2,000 miles in various weather and road conditions. I think that the comments here about loss of life and limb are overblown. If someone engages in sex and uploads the video publicly to PH while mowing down a pedestrian in the process in their "Tesla", I think that speaks more of the driver than it does the technology. One could argue that the tech enabled them to do so, but so what? See footnote: Gun Control Debate. I think what Comma is doing is rather smart as a company. Keep the barrier to entry high which naturally attracts skilled, and otherwise knowledgeable people, build out their codebase, and eventually release (or lease) their tech to car manufacturers that need help catching up in the marketplace. I don't really see another way a scrappy startup could accomplish as much in the self driving market without some risk. I don't really lift weights, but I've disassembled my vehicle's EPS motor. I think I have a fair chance of overpowering it, even if the controller doesn't include "deterministic, real RTOS" or whatever flabblebabble. Commercial release? Sure. #shipit But for now, I'd be more concerned about people staring at their crotch while driving browsing Instagram.
energee 7y ago
I'm reading a lot of commenters criticizing their strategy and quality of their system. Does anyone want to talk about the fact that they have 10.5 MILLION miles recorded without an at-fault accident? To me, this is quite remarkable.

262 points by boramalper 7y ago

rightbyte 7y ago

This is stupid. All the demos are on public roads. George Hortz needs to chill before he ends up in jail.

aphextron 7y ago
>This is stupid. All the demos are on public roads. George Hortz needs to chill before he ends up in jail. There are literally thousands of community members using this software on a daily basis, driving thousands of miles in real life situations daily. I've been commuting to work with it for 3 months now and it's the most lifechanging piece of tech I've come across since the iPhone. I get on the highway, engage the system, and sit back sipping my coffee for the next 45 minutes. It costs $800 to get fully setup with an EON/Panda/Giraffe and almost every Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai since 2017 is now supported. Check out some of the videos on youtube and you'll want one too.
- mayniac 7y ago
  >I get on the highway, engage the system, and sit back sipping my coffee for the next 45 minutes. Please, do not do this.
  - aphextron 7y ago
    >Please, do not do this. I get that people are unable to comprehend the fact that true level 2 autonomy is here and ready to use, but it is. It's perfectly safe to sit back completely disengaged from the controls on OpenPilot, so long as your eyes are on the road (which the software enforces with head tracking). Any sort of situation that could require you to take control is warned in advance.
    - mayniac 7y ago
      >Any sort of situation that could require you to take control is warned in advance. And what about false negatives, where something happens but it doesn't warn you? The fact that comma.ai pulled out of releasing the comma one when the NHTSA asked them some fairly basic questions is a massive red flag. They can't even guarantee that openpilot will detect low slung trailers or motorcycles [1]. If they want to develop and release autonomous cars of any level they should be going through proper procedures and regulations, not just sticking a "for research purposes only" sticker on everything and distancing themselves from any responsibility. There are far, far too many unknown unknowns when it comes to autonomous vehicles. If you're already forced to keep your eyes on the road, stop being lazy and do everyone around you a favour: grip the steering wheel, keep your feet on the pedals, and focus on the road. [1] https://opc.ai/faqs/does-openpilot-see-people-animals-motorcycles-low-slung-trailers-plastic-bags-baby-strollers-or-other-objects-on-the-road-wvmsxx https://opc.ai/faqs/does-openpilot-see-people-animals-motorc...
      - aphextron 7y ago
        > If you're already forced to keep your eyes on the road, stop being lazy and do everyone around you a favour: grip the steering wheel, keep your feet on the pedals, and focus on the road. You do that, and I'll continue enjoying my self driving car.
        jensvdh 7y ago
        Until it kills an innocent pedestrian. What are you gonna do then?
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  This is extremely reckless
  - aphextron 7y ago
    >This is extremely reckless I find driving without it to be reckless at this point. Humans are susceptible to distraction, OpenPilot is not.
    - Piskvorrr 7y ago
      That might be the elephant in the room: contemporary driving is reckless _to begin with_. Autonomous assists are bringing this to light - not necessarily making it more or less reckless.
  - tjpnz 7y ago
    No more reckless than doing the same with Tesla Autopilot.
gjs278 7y ago
you need to chill. he will not go to jail for writing software and releasing it. the fact that you think it’s ok to jail people for programming makes me want to throw you in the gulag instead.
toomuchtodo 7y ago
It's unlikely he chills until someone dies or property in excess of hundreds of thousands of dollars is damaged, and an attorney pursues him personally. A hacker ethos is no defense against a personal judgement you can never repay in a lifetime. Unlike most judgments, punitive damages awards are not dischargeable in bankruptcy as long as the relevant cause of action was based upon willful actions. The audience won't be a room full of domain experts, but a jury of twelve.
- snazz 7y ago
  No Tesla programmers have been arrested for Autopilot-related crashes.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Tesla makes it extremely clear to its users what the shared responsibility model is for Autopilot features (through warning messages at each Autopilot engagement and in the user's manual for all Tesla vehicles), and has general counsel on staff to reinforce this through legal actions indemnifying their staff. Openpilot is a drastically different model. It is a software breadboard for your own vehicle. For example, this is laughable (from the repo): (Top) > openpilot is an open source driving agent. Currently, it performs the functions of Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Lane Keeping Assist System (LKAS) for selected Honda, Toyota, Acura, Lexus, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Kia. It's about on par with Tesla Autopilot and GM Super Cruise, and better than all other manufacturers. (Bottom) > THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY.
    - djsumdog 7y ago
      I remember Germany regulators wanted Tesla to stop branding it as "auto-pilot" when really their features are more like Lane Assist and Adaptive Cruse that many other vehicles have. Also, Tesla's have had their share of issues (the car that ran into an off-ram barrier killing the driver, the guy who was passed out for hours before his Tesla crashed), but they're also a large enough company they've probably settled some or all of these cases out of court.
    - 7y ago
lixtra 7y ago
One side of me agrees, the other thinks of the Wright brothers. Oh wait, they got someone killed.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  He did? Wow, I have never heard this story: https://www.thoughtco.com/the-first-fatal-airplane-crash-1779178 https://www.thoughtco.com/the-first-fatal-airplane-crash-177... ..he killed an Army Lt during a demonstration, and took some pretty bad injuries to himself.
- rightbyte 7y ago
  Ye, it is cool. How ever, I feel there's a huge difference between pioneering flying and risking the general public's lives to feed your proprietary machine learning model. Because Hortz hasen't released that part of the software right? Last time I checked it was still closed source.
- HALtheWise 7y ago
  I am genuinely interested, do you think that the Wright Brothers should not have developed the technology that they did because of the risk that someone would get killed? I am having trouble imagining any way (at least at the time, but probably today as well) of inventing manned flight without anybody dying in the process.
  - amptorn 7y ago
    Inventing manned flight without anybody dying would have been completely possible. Use more caution, pay more attention to safety. But that's not the right hypothetical. This is inventing manned flight without endangering or killing innocent bystanders.
  - lixtra 7y ago
    I don’t think anything is possible risk free. So it comes down to your/societies risk tolerance how save, expensive and slow or risky, cheap and fast progress should be. Ideally the risk is taken by conscious and free individuals. But yes, bystanders will be hit as well. For manned flight it was totally worth the risk.

lukeqsee 7y ago

One side of me thinks this is really, really cool. The other side is running away as fast as possible. If anything shouldn't be developed by committee, it's something that controls a few thousand pounds hurtling down the highway at 70MPH with at best an observant human watching over it. Here's my reasoning: Mistakes in Django? Bad things happen. Mistakes in the Linux kernel? Potentially really bad things happen. Mistakes in self-driving cars? Really bad things certainly happen. Oh…and it looks like anyone can install it with just a few extra electronic parts?

petters 7y ago
What's the alternative for something as complex as self-driving system?
rightbyte 7y ago
Of course it's extremely cool. I wish this existed when I was in uni and we built self driving prototypes. I also remember how often we messed up completely and would have killed our self if it weren't for us driving at 10 km/h on closed off air strips. The thing is how this project explicitly tells people to use it is way over the line. "THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED." This is not going to help Hortz or the other programmers in the project when the government is coming for them.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  This would have been great for the DARPA team back in grad school. But yes, even back then our DARPA crew limited car speed to 10mph during a lot of the initial work, and it was either out in the old football field or the campus police would let us tape off the parking lot in the engineering building on weekends. Even as far as the open source tech has come, videos fulling explaining how to use this in production on real roads is pretty irresponsible; especially since there are no warnings in the videos and no claims of liability.
djsumdog 7y ago

useful 7y ago

Cool, I'd really like to use this for a small scale toy car. I'd never put it on something that could do more than bruise an ankle.

kyle_martin1 7y ago
I have two recommendations for you Duckietown (https://www.duckietown.org https://www.duckietown.org) and AWS DeepRacer (https://aws.amazon.com/deepracer https://aws.amazon.com/deepracer). Hope that helps! ------- If you want to get more serious about robotics then check out my website https://becomeautonomous.com https://becomeautonomous.com
- JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
  Also: https://www.donkeycar.com/ https://www.donkeycar.com/
  - diyrobocars 7y ago
    Also https://diyrobocars.com https://diyrobocars.com and https://diyrobocars.com.au https://diyrobocars.com.au in Australia. If anybody wants an invite to our Slack group and our "Hack and Race" meetups, send an email with your location to the address on my profile.

czr 7y ago

For those who haven't seen Openpilot before, or recently: * George Hotz (not "Hortz") is working on other stuff now [0], and is no longer CEO. * While "I'm running open-source self-driving software from GitHub" sounds terrifying, the software is very good at what it does, which is very limited (LKAS / ACC / driver monitoring). Browsing test videos on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openpilot+0.5 https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openpilot+0.5) is a good way to get an impression for how well it works; the consensus I've found is that it's better and safer than any stock systems except Tesla AP and Super Cruise. [0] http://pixie.tech http://pixie.tech

hsikka 7y ago
Damn, I was actually planning on applying to Comma for an internship because George Hotz was there, just to see if I could learn anything from him.
- evilolive 7y ago
  I've toyed with the idea of applying to comma, seemed like a good idea to learn tons in computer vision. but if anything Hotz himself would be why I wouldn't do it. I enjoy the roots of his f u attitude - but : we're so much smarter than anyone else in this market, is simply not true
syntaxing 7y ago
I knew he stepped down but I didn't know he was starting a new venture already. Is there any indication what the new venture is about? The site doesn't say much unfortunately.
- czr 7y ago
  Per the site and his instagram [0], it's an AR thing of some sort. He was playing around with a North Star prototype [1] on stream a few days ago [2]. But it's still very early–if he actually sticks with this project I imagine it will be at least few months before anything substantial is announced. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw3GEQNHywS/ https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw3GEQNHywS/ [1] https://developer.leapmotion.com/northstar https://developer.leapmotion.com/northstar [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQBlUvejWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQBlUvejWc

solarkraft 7y ago

How funny that this pops up just a few hours after I looked into it again. It's an exciting product. Even if it has no direct use, I feel better being driven around by an open piece of software that I could in theory inspect and change. Closed-source stuff is just a black box expected to do magic. Doesn't feel good. The story behind the man is quite interesting as well. When I was 9 he was the guy I got the jailbreaks from that would allow me to install cool tweaks and other non-standard software Apple wouldn't allow on my iPod Touch 3G. Apart from this, I think this rap [https://youtu.be/9iUvuaChDEg https://youtu.be/9iUvuaChDEg] he published when he was sued by Sony for allowing alternative operating systems to be installed onto the PlayStation 3 demonstrates his attitude quite well (admittedly the self driving situation is more complicated, but what a response to a law suit). You might guess that I'm still a GeoHot fan. While I'm not sure this will be competitive with commercial systems in the future, I'd love it. Having the world's best self driving system be free for everyone to inspect and use in their cars would be a societal gain similar to that of Linux. Open Pilot will be the only self driving system retrofittable to older cars (by consumers themselves), which is already very cool (it's just unfortunate that none of the cars are old enough for me to consider buying). I wish them the best of luck (and may they get the tests to a level at which everyone is happy with them).

rightbyte 7y ago
"Closed-source stuff is just a black box expected to do magic" Open Pilot is about as much black box as all the other self driving applications. The interfacing is open source. The machine learning is closed source. I've looked into the repos and didn't find any sign of the actual hard self driving parts, as it were last time I checked comma.ai. But sure, you can tune the steering P-controller for your Subaro if you would like too. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/car/subaru/carcontroller.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/ca... apply_steer = apply_std_steer_torque_limits(apply_steer, self.apply_steer_last, CS.steer_torque_driver, P) Or maybe you can patch using "volatile int" for thread concurrency in the machine model inerface (I guess it is that). https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/visiond/visiond.cc https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/selfdrive/vi...

kyle_martin1 7y ago

I work as a lead autonomous vehicle engineer. Here's a few thoughts: * This isn't really open-source. The most important part, the neural network perception pipeline, is closed sourced. Without the training data and the network architectures, the supporting code is not that useful. * This system is non-deterministic, which is a no-no in critical systems like autonomous vehicle. There's no guarantee that vehicle detection or throttle/brake commands will be executed on a acceptably safe timeline. * I think the supporting tools like Panda and Giraffe are great for those wanting to get into car hacking. ------------------------------------------------ By the way, if you want to to become an autonomous vehicle engineer I put together a resource guide here: https://becomeautonomous.com https://becomeautonomous.com

ebg13 7y ago
> The most important part, the neural network perception pipeline, is closed sourced. Knowing what things are is certainly a part, and it may be the least solved part, but surely there is a lot of value in rolling everything else that goes into autonomous driving into a car-pluggable package. Trivial setup for sensing, fusing, actuating, and thrusting is pretty big for most people even if you don't get to see the more fuzzy stuff.
holoduke 7y ago
What do you mean it's non deterministic? Because it is using floating point operations? Can you elaborate?
- pkulak 7y ago
  Not a real-time OS?
  - Lorkki 7y ago
    Yep, it seems built to run on NEOS, which is an Android distribution: https://github.com/commaai/neo https://github.com/commaai/neo
- nialv7 7y ago

mgraczyk 7y ago

I worked on Openpilot for around a year. Although many of the "cool" parts are not open source, there are still lots of interesting goodies in there worth checking out. For example, there is a semi-standalone CAN processing library: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/can https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/ca... A shitload of hacks and workarounds that make the system work on dozens of cars: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/car https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/tree/devel/selfdrive/ca... Saving state on devices that arbitrary drop successful file writes when the battery dies. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/params.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/param...

choppaface 7y ago
The value is definitely in the platform-relevant hacks. Stuff like this makes the reader think the authors have never seen a basic transactional database before: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/params.py https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/common/param...

aphextron 7y ago

I've been using Openpilot in my 2018 Corolla for the past few months. Some takeaways: It's mind-blowingly good. Easily on par with Autopilot (That is, Autopilot's ACTUAL capabilities, not what they show in marketing promos). For long highway trips, it's easy to go hours without a disengagement. The full setup costs about $800, is completely plug-and-play, and you can order everything you need on the site (EON/Panda/Giraffe). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfF9l2-orTk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfF9l2-orTk There's a huge active community working on adding support for more cars and even custom forks with more advanced features like dynamic follow. Someone even recently got a VW bus working with it. https://discordapp.com/invite/avCJxEX https://discordapp.com/invite/avCJxEX Also it's just really freaking cool to have a self driving Corolla. Can't stress how much this thing has changed the way I view driving and going places. It's no longer a pain, but a joy to sit in stop and go traffic. It's not perfect, but it's pushing the border of level 3 autonomy and far better than anything that any manufacturer besides Tesla is shipping.

jakecopp 7y ago
I had no idea the software was in use and this stable! Is the discord community the best way to follow progress or are there other resources?
- aphextron 7y ago
  >I had no idea the software was in use and this stable! Is the discord community the best way to follow progress or are there other resources? Yep, the Discord is super active and there's plenty of people to help you out if you hit any snags. But the hardware is super easy to install and ready to go if you have a compatible car. There's also a lot of active Youtubers like ku7 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXmUBvIuFLjLRuJ0mX298Ng https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXmUBvIuFLjLRuJ0mX298Ng) and arne (https://www.youtube.com/user/arneschwarck https://www.youtube.com/user/arneschwarck) that are building their own forks.
  - wocsor 7y ago
    i'm surprised i didn't get mentioned, since I have a fork dedicated to the Corolla. but yes the system is actually in use and comma have logged over 10 million miles already. on top of that, the Discord community reports any and all accidents and none have been due to openpilot. there have been a few accidents were people got rear-ended or sideswiped, but fortunately there has never been an accident with the system engaged or due to openpilot.

Bendingo 7y ago

This seems mind bogglingly dangerous. At least with commercial self-driving vehicles, there is a responsible legal entity (the car manufacturer). The thought of thousands of amateurs and enthusiasts releasing their hacked self-driving cars on the public roads is terrifying. The disclaimer "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS" is nice, but I can't that stopping the mindset of "I've just tweaked the algorithm a bit; let's see how it goes".

mayniac 7y ago
The video[1] says (verbatim): >OpenPilot allows you to be driving hands free and feet free for long periods of time without intervention. Holy fucking shit no. This is completely reckless. If they want their code to be used for research purposes, then set up a site with contact information which researches can use to get a copy of the source code. Having YouTube videos saying "buy this hardware, hook it up to your car and now it's self-driving" (yes they say self-driving in the description) is in no way responsible. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOIin4p70w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOIin4p70w
stale2002 7y ago
There is nothing illegal about modifying your own car. People have been doing so since cars were invented. "Amateur" car modifications are already very wide spread.
- mwfunk 7y ago
  Sure there is, depending on what you’re doing and where you live. There’s all sorts of things you could do that would make a vehicle no longer street legal and/or a danger to yourself and others. And I would hope people would take the latter very seriously, even if what they’re doing isn’t illegal.
  - stale2002 7y ago
    And nothing described here makes a vehicle no longer street legal. This stuff is well within the realm of perfectly legal car modifications.

jaimex2 7y ago

Seems like a neat project to get auto-steer driver assist going on a car that supports it. It's basically a Tesla Autopilot 1 ( Mobileye ) mod.

neilv 7y ago

In the first video, the voiceover tells people to buy&install the hardware, and use this software, while showing what appears to be autonomous driving among other vehicles on an active public road. (Not "This is for research only, from the privacy and safety of your own driveway.") Who thinks this is a good idea? Where in the US is this legal? In a crash, will insurance cover it, and will there be additional civil liability and possible criminal charges?

caafka 7y ago

By the way, the CEO of comma.ai will speak at Big Data & AI conference in Dallas, June 27-29, 2019. https://bigdataaiconference.com https://bigdataaiconference.com.

Jemm 7y ago

This is going to be an interesting legal case when a vehicle using Openpilot is involved in an accident.

k0dede 7y ago

scifi idea: stop making cars, train only

rnotaro 7y ago

Are the main maintainers French-Canadian? I noticed that a lot of demos were filmed in the province of Québec.

zarrobyte 7y ago

I work in AI for general usage applications. I think that there's some valid criticism here, although I don't think the target demographic is kept well in mind when considering the project as a whole. In the current iteration, a majority of commercial market consumers wouldn't be skilled enough to perform the installation properly, or at the least, adequately to achieve acceptable system performance. I think that the barrier to entry is just high enough to keep Cousin Vinny from sleeping in the back of his cab while his "self driving truck" got him from A to B. I've personally purchased a vehicle with the explicit reason to install OP after learning of Comma back in 2015. It's been one of the funnest, and most rewarding personal projects I've taken on. I never drive with my hands far from the wheel, or my eyes off the road. While there is certainly going to be some hyperbole surrounding new technology, my assessment is that this alpha quality, DIY solution has been adequate for my use cases over the last 2,000 miles in various weather and road conditions. I think that the comments here about loss of life and limb are overblown. If someone engages in sex and uploads the video publicly to PH while mowing down a pedestrian in the process in their "Tesla", I think that speaks more of the driver than it does the technology. One could argue that the tech enabled them to do so, but so what? See footnote: Gun Control Debate. I think what Comma is doing is rather smart as a company. Keep the barrier to entry high which naturally attracts skilled, and otherwise knowledgeable people, build out their codebase, and eventually release (or lease) their tech to car manufacturers that need help catching up in the marketplace. I don't really see another way a scrappy startup could accomplish as much in the self driving market without some risk. I don't really lift weights, but I've disassembled my vehicle's EPS motor. I think I have a fair chance of overpowering it, even if the controller doesn't include "deterministic, real RTOS" or whatever flabblebabble. Commercial release? Sure. #shipit But for now, I'd be more concerned about people staring at their crotch while driving browsing Instagram.

energee 7y ago

I'm reading a lot of commenters criticizing their strategy and quality of their system. Does anyone want to talk about the fact that they have 10.5 MILLION miles recorded without an at-fault accident? To me, this is quite remarkable.