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I find it very important to analyze cases like these when CEOs sound off about how you shouldn't need a degree to work in the industry. These code camps have no

I find it very important to analyze cases like these when CEOs sound off about how you shouldn't need a degree to work in the industry. These code camps have no credibility.

y4mi 7y ago
But... You really don't need a degree for most programming work I've seen at my day job? It's basically just creating various APIs in order to wrap them into some service you can sell. You can do most of that with maybe 1 year of coding at home. Though code review should be done at least in the beginning to make sure the produced code is maintainable
- learc83 7y ago
  There's some truth to that. There definitely is plenty drudge work that can be done by supervised noivices. But I think we tend to overestimate how much of our jobs that work entails, and what exactly can be done independently. A master carpenter can have an apprentice do most of the physical work, but the apprentice is still very much working under the master and relying on them to guide their work. Good bootcamps can prepare someone to be an apprentice, but we shouldn't pretend 12 weeks is enough to produce a useful employee. And it's not a wholesale replacement for a degree. Good graduates are going to have at least as much practical experience as good bootcamp graduates from internships, hackathons, personal projects, group projects etc... Plus they are going to have significantly more theoretical knowledge. Even more "professional" jobs like lawyer and capital E Engineer can be learned throughout apprenticeship, so there is value there. But we should stop acting like our profession is just hooking up wires. Other professions aren't nearly as self effacing as we are, it's like we've all internalized the disdain that upper management feels for us because of the power that we hold.
  - y4mi 7y ago
    well, our chief architect at my day job (with a degree) "designed" a system with several points of failure, each of which would kill the whole platform if even one of them failed. honestly, a degree really doesn't show competence -- nor does experience from what i've seen. Its clearly hard to create a fault tolerant system, but its just as hard to quantify what makes people able to do just that
    - mcguire 7y ago
      Would it have made a difference if your architect had to take personal, professional, and financial liability for the system?
    - learc83 7y ago
      Yes, incompetent credentialed, experienced Engineers, surgeons, plumbers, programmers etc... exist. >honestly, a degree really doesn't show competence -- nor does experience from what i've seen. Its clearly hard to create a fault tolerant system, but its just as hard to quantify what makes people able to do just that Of course, but in experience hiring programmers, computer science grads from reputable programs (either programs I'm aware of, or programs where I thought their curriculum looked decent) are much more likely to be able to create fault tolerant systems than non graduates--assuming approximately equal work experience and age. This levels out at some point, e.g., I don't think the degree is the primary differentiator between 2 talented programmers with 10 years experience. And there is definitely a very strong correlation between years of experience and the ability to create fault tolerant systems.
- mcguire 7y ago
  Sometimes x = x + 1; is meaningless drudge work and sometimes it's going to cost tens of millions of dollars, a company's reputation, the private data of thousands of innocent bystanders, and sometimes lives. Unfortunately, it's also not immediately obvious which case is which.
snazz 7y ago
I’ve seen many super-talented self-taught programmers who never received any formal education, and I’ve seen college graduates who can’t get FizzBuzz working. Of course the code camps are scams, but a degree isn’t much better for many people who have very little internal motivation to learn.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Ok. Yes, you’re right. There are proficient programmers who never went to college and complete idiots who did go. However. Most decent programmers do have a four-year degree, mostly in computer science (or something similar like math or physics) and most people who couldn’t hack it in college also can’t hack it solving coding problems 8-10 hours a day, all day, for decades. Stop acting like college degree _means_ moron.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- learc83 7y ago
  People regularly say this. But there is no way you made it through my program without literally paying someone else to do your entire degree without being able to code FizzBuzz. And I went to a no-name state school. I don't doubt that you've seen it, but my guess as that it either was someone from a very poor program, their degree was long time ago and they haven't been doing actual programming since then, or they just get nervous in interviews. Degrees aren't equal and you should definitely at least look through the curriculum if you aren't familiar with the program when evaluating a candidate. I've noticed several times that a candidate will have a degree from a department of Computer Science and Computer Information Systems. And everyone will assume their degree is CS, but if you look through their transcript it's clear they concentrated in IT/sysadmin stuff. Also, in general, their is a huge difference between someone who took the easiest classes and barely passed and someone who has a 3.0+ with challenging coursework. Look at transcripts.
  - johnsimer 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

I find it very important to analyze cases like these when CEOs sound off about how you shouldn't need a degree to work in the industry. These code camps have no credibility.

y4mi 7y ago

But... You really don't need a degree for most programming work I've seen at my day job? It's basically just creating various APIs in order to wrap them into some service you can sell. You can do most of that with maybe 1 year of coding at home. Though code review should be done at least in the beginning to make sure the produced code is maintainable

learc83 7y ago
There's some truth to that. There definitely is plenty drudge work that can be done by supervised noivices. But I think we tend to overestimate how much of our jobs that work entails, and what exactly can be done independently. A master carpenter can have an apprentice do most of the physical work, but the apprentice is still very much working under the master and relying on them to guide their work. Good bootcamps can prepare someone to be an apprentice, but we shouldn't pretend 12 weeks is enough to produce a useful employee. And it's not a wholesale replacement for a degree. Good graduates are going to have at least as much practical experience as good bootcamp graduates from internships, hackathons, personal projects, group projects etc... Plus they are going to have significantly more theoretical knowledge. Even more "professional" jobs like lawyer and capital E Engineer can be learned throughout apprenticeship, so there is value there. But we should stop acting like our profession is just hooking up wires. Other professions aren't nearly as self effacing as we are, it's like we've all internalized the disdain that upper management feels for us because of the power that we hold.
- y4mi 7y ago
  well, our chief architect at my day job (with a degree) "designed" a system with several points of failure, each of which would kill the whole platform if even one of them failed. honestly, a degree really doesn't show competence -- nor does experience from what i've seen. Its clearly hard to create a fault tolerant system, but its just as hard to quantify what makes people able to do just that
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Would it have made a difference if your architect had to take personal, professional, and financial liability for the system?
  - learc83 7y ago
    Yes, incompetent credentialed, experienced Engineers, surgeons, plumbers, programmers etc... exist. >honestly, a degree really doesn't show competence -- nor does experience from what i've seen. Its clearly hard to create a fault tolerant system, but its just as hard to quantify what makes people able to do just that Of course, but in experience hiring programmers, computer science grads from reputable programs (either programs I'm aware of, or programs where I thought their curriculum looked decent) are much more likely to be able to create fault tolerant systems than non graduates--assuming approximately equal work experience and age. This levels out at some point, e.g., I don't think the degree is the primary differentiator between 2 talented programmers with 10 years experience. And there is definitely a very strong correlation between years of experience and the ability to create fault tolerant systems.
mcguire 7y ago
Sometimes x = x + 1; is meaningless drudge work and sometimes it's going to cost tens of millions of dollars, a company's reputation, the private data of thousands of innocent bystanders, and sometimes lives. Unfortunately, it's also not immediately obvious which case is which.

snazz 7y ago

I’ve seen many super-talented self-taught programmers who never received any formal education, and I’ve seen college graduates who can’t get FizzBuzz working. Of course the code camps are scams, but a degree isn’t much better for many people who have very little internal motivation to learn.

commandlinefan 7y ago
Ok. Yes, you’re right. There are proficient programmers who never went to college and complete idiots who did go. However. Most decent programmers do have a four-year degree, mostly in computer science (or something similar like math or physics) and most people who couldn’t hack it in college also can’t hack it solving coding problems 8-10 hours a day, all day, for decades. Stop acting like college degree _means_ moron.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
learc83 7y ago
People regularly say this. But there is no way you made it through my program without literally paying someone else to do your entire degree without being able to code FizzBuzz. And I went to a no-name state school. I don't doubt that you've seen it, but my guess as that it either was someone from a very poor program, their degree was long time ago and they haven't been doing actual programming since then, or they just get nervous in interviews. Degrees aren't equal and you should definitely at least look through the curriculum if you aren't familiar with the program when evaluating a candidate. I've noticed several times that a candidate will have a degree from a department of Computer Science and Computer Information Systems. And everyone will assume their degree is CS, but if you look through their transcript it's clear they concentrated in IT/sysadmin stuff. Also, in general, their is a huge difference between someone who took the easiest classes and barely passed and someone who has a 3.0+ with challenging coursework. Look at transcripts.
- johnsimer 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]