6 ms·

Ask HN: How to Self-Study Integrated Circuit Design?

• CyberFonic 7y ago
  Have a look at the Wikipedia pages for Carver Mead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carver_Mead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carver_Mead) and Lyn Conway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway). Their book "Introduction to VLSI Systems" and other links on those two articles should be useful jumping off points for your research. Most university libraries should have copies of "Introduction to VLSI Systems" or similar on their shelves.
  • contingencies 7y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I'd never head of Lynn Conway, one would have assumed a very zeitgeist character with reference to Chelsea Manning's recent media presence.
    • p1esk 7y ago
      Another notable trans neuromorphic engineer is Jennifer (Paul) Hasler: http://hasler.ece.gatech.edu http://hasler.ece.gatech.edu
      • voltagex_ 7y ago
        Hey, I realise you probably didn't mean to do this, but using a previous name of someone who's transitioned is not a good thing to do.
        • metaphor 7y ago
          Why? An overwhelming majority of this academic's papers [1] are published as Paul Hasler. [1] http://hasler.ece.gatech.edu/Published_papers/index.html http://hasler.ece.gatech.edu/Published_papers/index.html
          • ben_w 7y ago
            I know a professional accountant who kept using her maiden name in business contexts after marriage because otherwise people had a hard time finding her skillset and work history etc., but for all other purposes she’s Mrs $NEW_NAME. As regards trans names, I’m told quite a lot of people (not 100%) find their old names an uncomfortable reminder of an uncomfortable past. Plus it’s a sign of respect to use someone’s chosen name, and a sign of disrespect to use any other name — for non-trans examples, what does it say about someone’s respect for the other party if they call David Tennant “David McDonald” or Boris Johnson “Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson”? (At least, without the brackets that the previous poster used; with is useful for the same reason as my friend using her maiden name, but it’s still often frowned on).
    • pjc50 7y ago
      I'm not sure what they have in common other than being transwomen? ARM's Sophie Wilson comes to mind, too.
  • p1esk 7y ago
    Given how Carver Mead is a father of neuromorphic computing, a more relevant book would be https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/0201059924 https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/...
• mud_dauber 7y ago
  If you're looking at this from an architectural perspective, consider grabbing a copy of Hennessey & Patterson's "Computer Architecture - a Quantitative Approach". It covers topics like branch prediction, instruction set design, memory/caching, and so on. A classic. If you want to get really deep into the physics of IC Design, one of my favorites is "CMOS Design, Layout & Simulation (Baker). It covers spice modeling, physical transistor construction, and a variety of digital/analog/memory circuit concepts. Finally: the link to this article was literally right underneath the link to yours when I opened HN news this morning: https://medium.com/@veedrac/to-reinvent-the-processor-671139a4a034 https://medium.com/@veedrac/to-reinvent-the-processor-671139...
  • hsikka 7y ago
    Brilliant, thank you!
  • bsder 7y ago
    Edit: Apparently this has replaced Weste and Eshraghian: "CMOS VLSI Design: A Circuits and Systems Perspective (4th Edition)" by Weste and Harris https://www.amazon.com/CMOS-VLSI-Design-Circuits-Perspective/dp/0321547748/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=cmos+vlsi+design&qid=1557732562&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/CMOS-VLSI-Design-Circuits-Perspective... Weste and Eshraghian was (and may still be) the Bible for a very long time: https://www.amazon.com/Principles-CMOS-VLSI-Design-Perspective/dp/0201733897/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Principles+of+CMOS+VLSI+Design&qid=1557731943&s=books&sr=1-2 https://www.amazon.com/Principles-CMOS-VLSI-Design-Perspecti... It's a lot newer (and nicer) than most other references. I would avoid Mead and Conway because it's really dated. It's not wrong, but a beginner won't know which parts to skip. If you're looking for something about VLSI layout design, "The Art of Analog Layout (2nd Edition)" by Hastings would be the choice: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Analog-Layout-2nd/dp/0131464108/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=art+of+analog&qid=1557732184&s=books&sr=1-3 https://www.amazon.com/Art-Analog-Layout-2nd/dp/0131464108/r...
    • lomereiter 7y ago
      The complete beginner should start with Harris & Harris "Digital Design and Computer Architecture" (David Harris is one of "CMOS VLSI Design" authors), it provides a gentle introduction into the underlying physics but focuses more on the logic of the whole endeavor, i.e. how to get from transistors to CPUs.
• imtringued 7y ago
  I don't know what your current level is but for complete beginners I recommend this game: http://nandgame.com/ http://nandgame.com/ It will walk you though the basic components of a very simplified CPU. Alternatively if you are interested in designing custom circuits which are merely used as accelerators then you could start off with an FPGA and a RISC V core to which you add your own designs.
• p1esk 7y ago
  What kind of ML research are you doing?
• planteen 7y ago
  Learn Verilog and practice implementing logic on a FPGA. A MicroZed board (Xilinx Zynq) is a great choice. You can even implement your own CPU.
  • arcticbull 7y ago
    Or an Arty! [1] It's got an Arduino shield connector and super affordable. [1] https://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/arty.html https://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/arty.html
    • amelius 7y ago
      Which FPGA vendor is most "Linux-friendly"?
      • dormando 7y ago
        TinyFPGA BX is pretty good (all open source tooling), but generally everyone has linux tools. edit: unless you meant which one would boot linux best :P Answer is "the expensive ones"
        • amelius 7y ago
          Ha, yes I meant tooling. But what if you want to scale your design to a different platform, would the open source tools still work?
          • q3k 7y ago
            For simulation and formal verification, yes, absolutely. Either Icarus Verilog, Verilator or SymbiYosys have been used for large commercial designs. For synthesis, the only FPGAs families currently supported by an open source flow are the Lattice iCE40 and ECP5 [0]. The latter is something you can be decently productive with and can fit quite a bit of logic (think: Amiga reimplementation, PCIe interfacing, etc.). If you'd like to port synthesizeable code from the open source world to the commercial world, this _should_ just work as long as you're willing to rewrite any physical interfacing code (since those depend on hardware blocks available in a particular family) and stick to high-quality Verilog. But that's the same as porting across any other FPGA families. Disclaimer: I work with SymbioticEDA, who develop and provide commercial support for some open source digital logic tooling, like Yosys and Nextpnr. [0] - https://github.com/YosysHQ/nextpnr https://github.com/YosysHQ/nextpnr
• dbuder 7y ago
  search youtube for Onur Multu, he shares his lectures.
  • deepakkarki 7y ago
    For quick reference : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIwQ8uOeRFgOEvBLYc3kc3g https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIwQ8uOeRFgOEvBLYc3kc3g and https://www.youtube.com/user/cmu18447 https://www.youtube.com/user/cmu18447
• amelius 7y ago
  I see a lot of digital design resources mentioned, but if the application is ML, then perhaps analog computing is an interesting alternative approach because here the intermediate results need not be exact.
• laydn 7y ago
  Integrated circuit design is a vast field with many different areas of expertise. Given your goal, your best bet is to buy an FPGA development board and learn an HDL (Verilog or VHDL), and start experimenting. When you to deeper in the field and more over to ASICs, then you would have to learn the details of synthesis, placement, routing, DFT (design for test) and a whole bunch of other details, which usually exceeds the willpower of a hobbyist :-) And then if you want to really go all the way into the latest and fastest transistor nodes, then you go into custom circuit design and custom gate layout, which is not fun at all.
• orbifold 7y ago
  Unfortunately most of the tools used in the EDA industry are proprietary and stuck in the 90s. So it is both expensive and pretty painful to use them, although after a while a kind of Stockholm syndrome sets in. In other words you really need Cadence and access to a Designkit from a foundry in a relatively recent process (65nm TSMC, 22nm SOI Global Foundries, etc.) to implement something serious. Similar things apply to digital design, although with tools like Chisel and Verilator (system verilog to C++ compiler) you can do more things with freely available tools. Once you want to tape out your design a lot of very expensive proprietary software is still involved. It is also pretty unrealistic to do everything yourself. It is a multi year single person project to setup an understand a new analog design kit itself. So my best advice is to find a group that has already setup most of that support infrastructure and obtained licenses for all the tools and design kits (We've got one person alone that handles licenses, software installation, and the ASIC cluster). Ideally the group has permanent staff with plenty of hardware experience and a professor with a proven track record of successful chip tapeouts. The number of groups that are capable of this in the field you are interested in can be counted on two hands at best. I can't talk much about analog design, because I've only witnessed people doing it and haven't done any design with them myself, but you need to be a very particular kind of person to enjoy it, especially if you have no-one to do the layout for you. Oh and you should think long and hard if you really want to go into this direction, it involves a lot of really hard and tedious work and is not glamorous at all. A tapeout might fail because someone accidentally checked a box in the last step before sending the design to the manufacturer, removing all blackbox pins on the edge of the design. Or someone might have though that it is a good idea to put a latch in the PLL reset path, which causes the clock to never turn on, which you only discover in the back annotated simulation 5 days before tapeout.
• blr246 7y ago
  Pick up some data sheets for IC parts that might be useful in a system you'd like to design. These are published by the manufacturer, and they contain a lot of design requirements about how to layout properly a PCB and some about the theory of operation of the parts. You can piece together a lot of practical information this way.
• anfilt 7y ago
  Not sure how experienced you are with digital logic, but I would start there. Start with combinational logic then sequential logic. Then move on to timing analysis and basic pipelining. Then get a FPGA dev board and design some basic things like a simple processor. You could also use the FPGA as a more concrete way to test what you have learned in the aforementioned topics. Then once you get that down/understood. I would recommend looking at the papers and literature regarding the topics of interest and common architectures and structures. See what optimizations have been tried. The optimization targets are generally performance, power and space. Also with ASICs the standard cell libraries make things much easier since generally they are characterized pretty well. If you have the funds to make an ASIC that is. Still because that you spend most your time just verifying and testing your designs. -EDIT- If your thinking custom analog circuits your going to have to learn a lot more. Starting with circuit fundamentals, but your also going to need solid understanding of semiconductor physics. There is also the problem that outside simulation testing ideas/designs is quite expensive. Unless what you have is something that could be constructed out of discrete components. So unless you got a company or university backing you it's unlikely you would be able to make any physical prototypes. Although prices have been getting cheaper for older processes, and there are services like MOSIS.
• Junk_Collector 7y ago
  For a solid foundation of microelectronics, Sedra and Smith's "Microelectronic Circuits" is the classic go to. Back when I worked at TI, they actually gave every new engineer a copy. This is a very entry level book that covers a huge number of topics well and will serve as a launching point to more specific topics. It starts with basic transistors and works up through Op-amp design and digital VLSI touching on filter theory and clocks along the way.
• joshvm 7y ago
  If you have no experience in digital electronics at all, I would actually start with a book like Code by Charles Petzold. It's a pop-science book about electronics and goes from light bulbs and switches to simple logic blocks like adders. It covers the basic building blocks of virtually every cpu in existence - how to turn transistors into calculators. It's well written and provides some context to otherwise pretty dry textbooks. There is quite a bit of difference between how an FPGA works and is programmed versus a totally custom chip. You could also take a look at reverse engineering walkthroughs eg Ken Shirrif has a few on his blog. Nand2tetris is another good thing to look at. Finally, reverse engineering the MOS6502: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fWqBmmPQP40 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fWqBmmPQP40
• guidoism 7y ago
  Oh, oh, oh. I can answer this — I’m a software engineer on sabbatical and I’m doing the same. First off, everyone says Hennessey & Patterson and Patterson & Hennessey and while I think those books are worth reading at some point, for me they concentrate on things that I don’t care about (like what the cutting edge is) and gloss over the finer details of actually how the processor works. I’ve found that Mano’s Computer System Architecture is great for the higher level stuff. I have the 2nd edition from 1982. I like Hauck and DeHon’s Reconfigurable Computing from 2007 for FPGAs. I like Hill and Peterson’s Digital Systems: Hardware Organization and Design from 1973 for describing the design programmatically using an RTL, in this case they use an APL derivative rather than the more recent (and horrible) VHDL or Verilog. This is a dense text and I’m still working my way through but it’s super awesome in my opinion. I’ve been working through the Visual ARM1 animated transistor-level simulator and have made my way to Bryant’s 1984 paper A Switch-Level Model and Simulator for MOS Digital Systems and recursively reading what I need to understand it thoroughly. I have Mead & Conway on the way. I also have a copy of Sedra & Smith (2nd Edition) for understanding the actual electrical circuits but I rarely reference it.
  • guidoism 7y ago
    Also these series of blog posts describe what's going on in the Visual ARM1 simulator and they are both really really well written: - http://www.righto.com/2015/12/reverse-engineering-arm1-ancestor-of.html http://www.righto.com/2015/12/reverse-engineering-arm1-ances... - http://daveshacks.blogspot.com/2015/12/inside-armv1-register-bank.html http://daveshacks.blogspot.com/2015/12/inside-armv1-register...
• drallison 7y ago
  Silicon Catalyst (https://siliconcatalyst.com/ https://siliconcatalyst.com/) operates an incubator that supports IC design and development with access to commercial tools. Book learning only goes so far, then apprenticeship and experience becomes necessary. To really understand how to make integrated circuits you have to make a few.
• peter_d_sherman 7y ago
  Start here: Boolean Logic & Logic Gates: Crash Course Computer Science #3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI-qXk7XojA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI-qXk7XojA It's a nice, simple, easily watchable and highly visual overview of what you're going to start learning. From there, it's virtually guaranteed that YouTube will suggest more relevant videos, and you'll be on your way. Then later, you might want some books on "Digital Logic" (that's the keyword to search for). To go up from that level of abstraction, I recommend "The Personal Computer from the Inside Out: The Programmer's Guide to Low-Level PC Hardware and Software (3rd Edition)" By Murray Sargent III and Richard L. Shoemaker: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201626462 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201626462 To learn Assembly Language: Randall Hyde's Art Of Assembly Language http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.com/index.html http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.c... To learn Compilers: Compiler Construction, by Niklaus Wirth http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf Let's Build A Compiler, Jack W. Crenshaw & Marco van de Voort: https://www.stack.nl/~marcov/compiler.pdf https://www.stack.nl/~marcov/compiler.pdf A Small C Compiler, by James E. Hendrix (sorry, this one is behind a pay/registration wall) https://www.scribd.com/document/289762150/Small-C-compiler-v1-7 https://www.scribd.com/document/289762150/Small-C-compiler-v... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-C Tiny C Compiler https://bellard.org/tcc/ https://bellard.org/tcc/ Wikipedia articles related to compilers: Compilers, General: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler BNF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form Shunting Yard Algorithm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunting-yard_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunting-yard_algorithm Parse Trees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree Here's a great way to visually explore how various compilers create assembly language instructions: https://godbolt.org/ https://godbolt.org/ Up the abstraction level from all of that is LISP and LISPlike languages, Tensorflow, ML, and related high-level abstractions -- but you probably are more aware of those than the lower levels... Anyway, good luck! It's a wonderful journey to undertake!
• rramadass 7y ago
  The great Nicklaus Wirth wrote a book; "Digital Circuit Design for Computer Science Students: An Introductory Textbook" It is different from other standard texts and well worth studying.
• rramadass 7y ago
  Here is an online course based on the book; "Digital Design and Computer Architecture, 2nd Edition by Harris & Harris" which teaches you processor design using FPGAs. https://blog.digilentinc.com/teaching-computer-architecture-with-fpga-boards-harris-harris/?utm_source=mautic&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=digilent_newsletter&utm_content=may_2019 https://blog.digilentinc.com/teaching-computer-architecture-... The boards are from Digilent, whose "Analog Discovery 2" and "Digital Discovery" multi-tools are extremely useful for learning Embedded Systems Programming.