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Are Avocados and Almonds Vegan?
- jasonvorhe 7y agoYes, they are. EOD.
- DoctorOetker 7y agoI agree, it's just mind boggling to think otherwise. It may or may not be ecologically responsible, but consuming the indirect fruits of bee pollination labor, is distinct from consuming their direct resource of honey, which could be viewed as a "body part" of the larger organism. By this quiz rationale, your average vegetable wouldn't be vegan because it may rely on animal fertilizer...
- kermitismyhero 7y ago>By this quiz rationale, your average vegetable wouldn't be vegan because it may rely on animal fertilizer... Heck, this could be extended to the use of oxygen to breathe. It's another byproduct of a plant process that has animal waste (CO2) as an input.
- techntoke 7y agoIs ice cold?
- lucb1e 7y agoThis comment was flagged to death but honestly, while posed silly, it's a similar argument as most. Many others here are saying vegan is a "fluid" term or something along those lines, and one might say that "cold" is similarly relative. There are some worse comments in this thread.
- ruffrey 7y ago> vegetables like avocados Avocados are a fruit...
- ravenstine 7y ago"Vegetable" isn't a botanical word, but it's culinary. The term "fruit" is both botanical and culinary. A fruit can be considered a vegetable or a culinary "fruit".
- timdiggerm 7y agoYes, but that's not relevant here. Culinarily, they are not a fruit either.
- ravenstine 7y agoI never said they're a culinary fruit... check my last sentence again.
- 49531 7y agoIf we're being pedantic here, it's botanically a fruit, but botanical fruits that we interact with in common parlance as vegetables are often considered vegetables legally. At least in the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden
- taejo 7y agoVegetable in a botanical sense just means "plant", so even if you for some reason insist on using technical terms in non-technical discussions, avocados are still vegetables.
- ravenstine 7y ago> Vegetable in a botanical sense just means "plant" No, it doesn't, and it's not a word used in botany. Vegetable isn't commonly used to refer to all plants as a whole, but parts of plants consumed for food. The word "vegetation" has more botanical history to it, but even that term has been long superseded by the word "flora".
- 49531 7y ago
- TillE 7y agoNon-vegans are always trying to do this smug "checkmate vegans" bullshit. It's incredibly tiresome. There's this bizarre, illogical trope that doing some good is pointless if you can't be absolutely, impeccably perfect in every way. Again, it's just obvious bullshit from people who don't even really believe what they're saying, they're just playing a stupid gotcha game.
- shlant 7y agounfortunately, it doesn't just come from non-vegans. There is so much infighting within the community because so many demand "perfection" or else you are a "fake vegan".
- X6S1x6Okd1st 7y agoThis seems to crop up all the time when it comes to idealistic movements. It certainly has happened to different forms of communism, arguably sunni vs shia, vegans being fed up with vegetarians etc I'd love to know if there is a handy word/term for this phenomenon where an odd amount of energy is spent opposing those people/views which are more similar than less similar.
- newscracker 7y ago“Holier-than-thou”, perhaps, though it can be used even with people with views that aren’t similar.
- shlant 7y agoit is definitely a common manifestation of human psychology and black and white thinking. Not many people are comfortable with the grey area and the morally ambiguous. People want strict rules that they can follow that gives them a measuring stick by which they can gauge their own (and others) "worthiness", "purity" or "success". If we set specific boundaries, then we can more easily judge ourselves if we succeeded/failed or others if they are in/out. This type of thinking is most commonly found in diets. We decide which foods are "bad" and which are "good" so we know whether or not we have achieved our goals. It's easier to know when you "fell off the horse" when you ate a food previously deemed "bad". It's not so easy to make judgements on ourselves and others when the rules are not so clear-cut. I think many are afraid of looking to ourselves as the deciders of our own realities/moralities. We prefer to look outside to leaders/gurus/experts to tell us what the truth is.
- awsuser 7y agoDo vaccinations cause autism? Welcome to answers we may already know, where peer review are made up and only feelings matter
- amelius 7y agoNot sure about the vegan part but I've just discovered that avocados require lots of water during production and as such are not very natural-resource-friendly. https://old.danwatch.dk/en/undersogelseskapitel/how-much-water-does-it-take-to-grow-an-avocado/ https://old.danwatch.dk/en/undersogelseskapitel/how-much-wat...
- seiferteric 7y agoI think to be fair you would have to look a calorie content of each (and maybe nutrients). There are far more calories in an avocado than a tomato, maybe 10x more. If you compare it in that way, I think they are pretty close in water usage.
- cryptonector 7y agoThey probably also use a lot of CO2, so it's all good.
- sdenton4 7y agoFor comparison: https://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources/ https://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources/ Beef is ~1800 gal/lb ~= 15,021 liters / kg, vs 283 liters / kg for avocados, as per your link... There was a pile of scaremongering press about this a couple years ago, which somehow always left out meat production comparisons... You get most of the benefit by eating low on the food chain. Additionally cutting out important sources of vegetable fat + protein seems a bit dangerous to me.
- village-idiot 7y agoI think it’s very misleading to actually make this comparison, because it ignores the different types of water: green (rain) and blue (treated and irrigated). Beef in particular consumes a lot of water, but a lot of it is green, which is much more environmentally friendly than blue water.
- sdenton4 7y agoHere's a site (with terrible UX...) from comparing liters/kg for various foods, broken down into green/blue/grey: https://waterfootprint.org/en/resources/interactive-tools/product-gallery/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/resources/interactive-tools/pr... Beef lists there also at 15,415 liters/kg, with a 4% 'blue' (filtered/treated) component, which works out to 616.6 liters/kg - still double the total water kg/liter for the avocados (which, themselves, will have a green/blue/grey breakdown). (It's also not obvious to me that one should consider 'green' water as a completely free resource. Plants bred for fast growth with constant replacement will consume more water, which in turn won't find its way into aquifers.)
- shlant 7y agoEven the most ridiculous of militant vegans (and they get pretty ridiculous) would consider things like almonds, avocados or figs vegan. Stop with the perfectionism and the nitpicking. It's bad for the movement and bad for the animals/environment. "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."[1] 1. https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
- imgabe 7y ago> Commercial farming of those vegetables, at least in some parts of the world, often involves migratory beekeeping. > Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their production. It seems like there are some vegans who consider it. If exploiting bees for honey is non-vegan, why would exploiting bees for other purposes be acceptable?
- shlant 7y agobecause if you look far enough down the rabbit hole, nothing is vegan. Hence "as far as is possible and practicable". If you are vegan except honey, good for you. If you decide that doesn't fit your worldview/morals, then good for you. If all you care about is meeting some other persons very specific standard of veganism, then you are probably doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with.
- racuna 7y agoMy first impression was "D'uh", but then, from the article: > Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their production. I'm not vegan, so I don't know how deep they are involved in "not animal exploitation" even is not obvius nor direct
- PerfectElement 7y agoHere's the definition of veganism by the Vegan Society: "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."
- basetop 7y agoBy that definition, veganism is the worst diet. Far more animals ( primarily insects, worms, vermin, etc ) are killed for a vegan diet than an omnivore diet and especially a carnivore diet. There are literally more animals parts in a bowl of salad than a plate of steak. If that's really what veganism is about, then vegans should be carnivore. Isn't it better to kill one cow and feed 100 people rather than kill thousands of insects, worms, mice, possum, etc to give 100 people a bowl of salad each?
- aoeusnth1 7y agoEating meat requires moving plant food energy up an extra trophic level in which lots of energy is lost. For this reason, vegetable protein often requires several times less crop cultivation per gram than does animal protein.
- basetop 7y agoSimply not true because humans can't process vegetation like cows can. It's why we feed animals vegetation and we eat the animals. Also, even if what you said were true, that only applies to human raised livestock. Even under you assertion, eating wild animals ( elk, moose, bison, etc ) would cause far less animal harm than a vegan diet which destroys thousands of animals for each bowl of salad. So I'm guessing every Vegan Society member is a hunter?
- aoeusnth1 7y agoFactory farmed animals aren’t primarily fed on harmless waste products. They require production of corn or other plants to efficiently feed them. Do a google scholar search for land use of various diets. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0165797 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Personally, I don't mind eating hunted meat. It's just inconvenient because I don't like to hunt, nor could I do so conveniently. Regardless, you seem to be assuming that vegans care about minimizing the number of organisms harmed. I don't think that's generally true - most people care about subjective understanding of suffering. Personally I like Brian Tomasik's writings - he tries quantify suffering explicitly based on functional complexity of brain function (https://reducing-suffering.org/the-importance-of-insect-suffering/ https://reducing-suffering.org/the-importance-of-insect-suff...).
- peterwwillis 7y agoThere should be a word for "overly concerned and judgmental about what other people do in their private life"
- kermitismyhero 7y ago>There should be a word for "overly concerned and judgmental about what other people do in their private life" How about "vegan"?
- shlant 7y agohaven't heard that joke before...
- shlant 7y agobusybody?
- mywittyname 7y agoI hate these stupid arguments. The entire point is to muddy the definition of a word so much as to render it worthless for political reasons. It's like how assault rifle was a well understood term in the 70s and 80s, but today groups quibble over technical minutiae in an effort to invalidate the term. As with most labels, the word vegan has a fluid, rough definition which varies slightly over time and person-to-person. If someone tells me they are a vegan, I know they are trying to tell me that they avoid foods that use animal parts or their byproducts. It's not some fucking contract they entered into prohibiting them from eating whatever foods society decides to impose the vegan label on via mental gymnastics. If they are cool with eating the butter made from Betsy, my happy cow, then whatever, let them eat the butter. FWIW, I'm a carnivore and object to the consumption of almonds because of their harmful impact to the environment. That might make me a hypocrite to someone because I'm totally okay with eating a banana or something. But I don't care, I'm free to decide my own arbitrary moral compass for whatever reason I choose. I guess I'm aggravated by society's needless pedantry over language. Not every word needs a rigid legal or technical definition that should be adhered to. And the people guilty of this are largely doing so because they don't agree with you and are attempting to make you look stupid to justify their position.
- goodroot 7y agoThe absurd logical conclusion is to stop eating and die. We all want it to be better. Vegans are trying. People are trying. What good does this discourse serve?
- alistairSH 7y agoThe absurd logical conclusion is to stop eating and die. That's a thing.[0] Not literally starvation, but the "earth would be better without us" part. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Mov...
- newscracker 7y agoI rage against this many a times. It’s one of the most absurd and illogical things that some people have come up with. To your point though, it doesn’t directly relate to the GP’s point. Voluntary Human Extinction Movement requires breeding to reduce and stop and make humans extinct. It doesn’t require those who are living to just kill themselves.
- didibus 7y agoIt's fun to reduce complex, varied and nuanced ethical stances into as few as possible boxes and give them cool names like sufficientarianism, and that way, we can all pick a clan and then argue about true scotsman all day long. I'm curious, what ethical box would I fit in if I'm more worried about maximising my sustained access to high quality avocados and honey? So that it is the balance optimum between being healthy and safe to eat, produced sustainably, delicious, varied in flavors, and available for me to buy year round?
- Causality1 7y agoThis isn't going to bother anyone, since vegans have made peace with killing thousands of insects every time a field is harvested.
- nacho_weekend 7y agoAs a non-vegan, it really irks me when other non-vegans try to “checkmate” vegans with situations like this. It’s a personal choice to not partake in the factory meat/animal products industry and the measurable harm that comes to life forms from it. True, you can show that vegetables and other byproducts can be derived from human labor cost, but when the rubber meets the road, and you make an individual choice on what products to consume, it’s valid to judge these ethical concerns and decide what best fits into your personal values set. I think it helps that I come from the Hardcore Punk scene where many of my friends are vegan.
- newscracker 7y agoClickbait title! Nothing on this planet would be vegan if we look closely at harm caused by any behavior or habit or use. It’s about reducing harm and least harm. If people understood that part of veganism and then moved further to understand it better, there wouldn’t be so much hatred or so many clickbait titles. Pointing out the truth and informing people about the consequences of their choices can be done without silly titles that make many people roll their eyes.
- dragonwriter 7y agoIf they aren't because of the “exploitation” of bees in migratory beekeeping, then ethical vegans probably need to also consider the use of manure as fertilizer, where or comes from, and what crops it is used on in assessing acceptable vegan food.
- newscracker 7y agoCheck out “veganic farming” or “stock free farming”. That addresses the point you’re referring to, though it’s not practical in many places yet.
- verdverm 7y agoIs it be exploitation or do the bees get to see, smell, and taste more of the world?
- checkyoursudo 7y agoI think you can make a case that there are vegans, and there are Vegans. Much like you can be libertarian without being a Libertarian, or enjoy the search for truth without ever worrying if what you have learned is The Truth. I strive to be vegan, though sometimes I am unsuccessful. I also strive not to lie, though sometimes my friend wants to know if this whatever looks good on him or her. I strive to be a person who eats only plant and plant-derived food, for several personal reasons (including some ethical!), though I don't really care about whether a bee was transported from one field to another to pollinate something. If that makes me not a Vegan, then I don't care. But I still try to eat plant-based foods. But I also don't call myself a vegan or even an aspiring-vegan. I am almost certainly a vegetarian since I don't eat any meat, though I don't call myself a vegetarian. Personally, I am satisfied letting the person who wants to or is trying to be vegan decide for themselves whether they are comfortable eating avocados or whatever. People would be happier in life if they weren't so concerned about absolutes, I think. Just try to be who you want to be. If you want to try to be the best capital-V Vegan as defined by someone else's standards (and adopt them as your own or w/e) that you can be, then maybe don't eat avocados.
- rasengan0 7y agoI tired of zealots. What you eat is a personal choice. If the whole world ate dogs routinely, I would choose carrots. Some would say "Ah, stupid carrot eater doesn't know the root bacteria he's killing is also sentient!" Dogs, bacteria: all under the living tree. See, eat anything and shut up you stupid carrot eating zealot. Then there's the Corgi burger macs for $2.5 and the corporate lunches where I ask for any menu exception and get the carrot soup entree for $25. Never mind the free range German Shepherd steaks or bulldog sausage, that shit is everywhere. But taste is not everything my friends, sometimes it takes real cognitive effort to be aware of factory farming, government subsidies, nutritional health, environmental downstream effects and other considerations before you open your big mouth. A little impulse control goes a long way. That said, I still wear my 7 year old dog leather shoes from China and don't subscribe to any CarrotPower YouTuber channels. What's up, doc?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]