7 ms·

This and similar behavior is what ultimately drives people toward decentralized solutions, like Bitcoin for example.

mavdi 7y ago
HN is traditionally anti crypto, but just want to point out that literally no one in this world can stop you accepting Bitcoin payments. That's the true power of decentralization.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  Sure they can. Accepting Bitcoin for payments is illegal where I live. It is enforced by fines and jail time, just like all other laws.
  - brakmic 7y ago
    Which country? Nobody can _stop_ you from accepting cryptocurrency.
    - freddie_mercury 7y ago
      Just like nobody can _stop_ you from murdering another person or demanding a bribe or any number of terrible things. I don't understand the point of your vehement sophistry. Everyone understands how societies work. There are laws. People get punished after the fact for transgressing them. Cryptocurrency is not somehow magically exempt from that reality.
      - brakmic 7y ago
        I don't understand your point. Just wanted to talk about technology. But ok, no problem. Have fun.
        dkersten 7y ago
        The person you replied to said that cryptocurrencies are illegal where they are. You said nobody can stop you from accepting cryptocurrencies. Just like nobody can stop you from doing any other illegal thing, like not paying your taxes or taking drugs. Sure, you can do these things and you may even get away with it, but if you get caught, you get fines or jail time or whatnot. If cryptocurrencies are illegal where the person you responded to is, sure they technically can accept cryptocurrencies, but if they get caught, its no different than getting caught doing any other illegal activity. You might say "well, its hard to get caught!" but you could say the same thing about laundering money, evading taxes or buying drugs, yet people get caught doing these things all the time.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dkersten 7y ago
      These countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:Legal_status_of_bitcoin_(new).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country...
  - chii 7y ago
    How do they actually enforce it? Presumably, displaying a bitcoin address isn't illegal, and you are not in control of who sends you coins.
    - freddie_mercury 7y ago
      > Presumably, displaying a bitcoin address isn't illegal, and you are not in control of who sends you coins. Both parts of your statement are naive and wrong. Soliciting payment in any currency other than the national currency is illegal. No one is going to be fooled by claims of "oh I just put our corporate bitcoin address up for...uh...personal aesthetics; we weren't actually suggesting customers can pay us that way". In any case, where is the documentation for the annual audit? When the tax department looks at the corporate bank statements, what do you think they'll see? I own a company here, we are required by law to hire an external auditing agency. Do you think the auditing agency is going to, what?, just lie to the government for me when it is obvious to them I'm accepting payments in bitcoin since there is no documentation for local currency payments? The tax departments come to our office every year and goes over the books. They are looking for tax evasion, money laundering, and so on. But it would be pretty trivial to spot if someone is getting paid in Bitcoin. I'm trying to imagine how you think the conversation would go when they audit the company Bitcoin account, "Oh, gee, some bitcoin got transferred to the company account. Dunno how THAT happened! Ha ha. Guess it was just a DONATION! We were definitely NOT breaking the law! Don't look at our invoicing system that shows we marked that as a payment received for order #81351."
- cesnja 7y ago
  Sure, but you can be stopped from converting that Bitcoin into usable (legal) money.
  - brakmic 7y ago
    Bitcoin is not less legal than any fiat money btw.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      It's far, far less widely accepted, though. Which makes it rather less useful if your primary use case for money is to buy things.
      - brakmic 7y ago
        Add a "time" variable to the equation and then come back some _time_ later. Then we can compare how many have used it in 2009, 2019, and 2029.
        Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
        I still need to pay for food and rent/mortgage between now and then though. No point in comparing BTC acceptability in 10 years time if I can’t support myself until that point in time. Edit: For me converting BTC in funds I can use to buy food (not just for myself but also my kitty), pay my bills (rent, electricity, gas, water, internet, mobile, AWS) is a pain in the ass. Sure there are online stores they will accept bitcoin, but not my local supermarket, sure some isp’s will accept butcoin but then I’m limiting my options of who I can use. With PayPal (yes I hate them just as much as everyone else) I can get an invoice paid and have the funds in my bank account seconds later. I like the idea of a decentralised Payment process. But atm it’s not for me for a number of reasons not just acceptability.
        brakmic 7y ago
        Never said you should give up anything. Only that things take time. In 2009 you couldn't buy anything with cryptocurrencies. Today you not only can buy many things but in many countries (and regimes!) cryptocurrencies are the only way to preserve a little of what's left from previous wealth. Think Venezuela.
- cpach 7y ago
  As a consumer, I would only pay with Bitcoin if it was something that I really really wanted. Usually there are competitors that will accept credit cards, so I would prefer them. Bitcoin offers nothing to me that I value.
  - lawn 7y ago
    One potential benefit (which merchants so far don't show you) is that cryptos is free for the merchants to accept. Credit cards can take a massive chunk out of your profit and they're open to charge back fraud. Cryptocurrencies remove those fees and the risk for charge back fraud, so the merchant earns more when you pay them with cryptos. To incentivize this they could charge you less than if you paid with a credit card.
    - michaelt 7y ago
      According to [1] right now, if you want your bitcoin transaction to have a good chance of being in the next block, the fee is 18,450 satoshis, i.e. $1.11 [1] https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/ https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/
      - lawn 7y ago
        Bitcoin is a broken cryptocurrency. It's not argument against cryptocurrencies in large, only against Bitcoin specifically. For example Bitcoin Cash has a next block fee of $0.0014. [1] [1]: https://bitcoinfees.cash/ https://bitcoinfees.cash/
        brakmic 7y ago
        LOL, "broken". However, unlike you I am not trying to advertize any cryptocurrency here. Only wanted to talk about decentralized solutions. And bcash is exactly an example of a NOT decentralized cryptocurrency. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you. Have fun with your s*coin.
        7y ago
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > anti crypto That word, "crypto" alone is cringeworthy. HN is very much pro cryptography...
  - lawn 7y ago
    It should be obvious from the context though. "crypto" is also shortened from cryptography, why should it be exclusive to that?
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      "Crypto" should not be exclusive to mean "cryptography" however it is undesirable to reuse a shortening within the same field. Which is true in this example given "cryptocurrency" relies on "cryptography". Whoever came up with the term "crypto" for "cryptocurrency" did not think it through enough. Especially on any technical website, the usage of the newer and less relevant [1] shortening is unnecessary. TL;DR simply use the term cryptocurrency if you're discussing cryptocurrency. [1] Yes, since cryptocurrency depends on strong cryptography. If the latter is broken, cryptocurrency is also, but so it the entire Internet.
      - lawn 7y ago
        I agree that they it shouldn't be used if it's possible to mix them up (crypto shouldn't be used to mean cryptography either if it's possible to mix it up with cryptocurrencies). This was not such an instance. The English language is ever changing, we re-purpose and come up with new words all the time. In daily use "cryptocurrencies" is long to type and say, so when the context is clear it's easier to just use "crypto". Note: I actually try to use "cryptocurrencies" too.
        Fnoord 7y ago
        > (crypto shouldn't be used to mean cryptography either if it's possible to mix it up with cryptocurrencies) > The English language is ever changing, we re-purpose and come up with new words all the time. Except that my argument isn't that the old meaning is older (ie. no appeal to tradition, nor is appeal to novelty valid); it is that the older meaning is: 1) Far more important than the new one, and 2) Far broader, widely available and adopted (NOT a niche) 3) Is a dependency for the new one. Those are 3 very good reasons why using crypto for cryptocurrency doesn't make sense, except perhaps if you're talking within the circles of that niche (hint: not here). > In daily use "cryptocurrencies" is long to type and say, so when the context is clear it's easier to just use "crypto". Use an autocomplete to make 'crypto' change to 'cryptocurrency'.
- klyrs 7y ago
  Except a 51% attack. Or getting locked up in prison.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  > HN is traditionally anti crypto Yeah, I'm probably one of the people that you are describing. Crypto-money does not work. I would love if it worked, I also would love if somebody learned how to reverse entropy growth or got time travel working in some way. Yet, none of those work. (And yes, crypto-money isn't on the same level of those two, maybe some day somebody will manage to make it work, if so, great!) Be sure that your label of "anti crypto" is much more a tag over you than the large HN crowd.
kasperni 7y ago
In what fantasy world will a majority of companies go "Fine, I'm going to stop accepting credit cards, and rely solely on *Coin"?
- brakmic 7y ago
  The same fantasy world that according to some people should not have had any need for more than 5 computers worldwide. ;) https://www.pcworld.com/article/155984/worst_tech_predictions.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/155984/worst_tech_prediction...
rat87 7y ago
I'm not saying paypal is blameless (especially since their customer service is broken and proving yourself innocent is difficult) but their behavior is driven by government regulation against fraud and shady businesses. It's easy to say use decentralized solutions, like Bitcoin but then customers are more susceptible to fraud(no chargebacks for example)

HN is traditionally anti crypto, but just want to point out that literally no one in this world can stop you accepting Bitcoin payments. That's the true power of decentralization.

freddie_mercury 7y ago
Sure they can. Accepting Bitcoin for payments is illegal where I live. It is enforced by fines and jail time, just like all other laws.
- brakmic 7y ago
  Which country? Nobody can _stop_ you from accepting cryptocurrency.
  - freddie_mercury 7y ago
    Just like nobody can _stop_ you from murdering another person or demanding a bribe or any number of terrible things. I don't understand the point of your vehement sophistry. Everyone understands how societies work. There are laws. People get punished after the fact for transgressing them. Cryptocurrency is not somehow magically exempt from that reality.
    - brakmic 7y ago
      I don't understand your point. Just wanted to talk about technology. But ok, no problem. Have fun.
      - dkersten 7y ago
        The person you replied to said that cryptocurrencies are illegal where they are. You said nobody can stop you from accepting cryptocurrencies. Just like nobody can stop you from doing any other illegal thing, like not paying your taxes or taking drugs. Sure, you can do these things and you may even get away with it, but if you get caught, you get fines or jail time or whatnot. If cryptocurrencies are illegal where the person you responded to is, sure they technically can accept cryptocurrencies, but if they get caught, its no different than getting caught doing any other illegal activity. You might say "well, its hard to get caught!" but you could say the same thing about laundering money, evading taxes or buying drugs, yet people get caught doing these things all the time.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dkersten 7y ago
    These countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:Legal_status_of_bitcoin_(new).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country...
- chii 7y ago
  How do they actually enforce it? Presumably, displaying a bitcoin address isn't illegal, and you are not in control of who sends you coins.
  - freddie_mercury 7y ago
    > Presumably, displaying a bitcoin address isn't illegal, and you are not in control of who sends you coins. Both parts of your statement are naive and wrong. Soliciting payment in any currency other than the national currency is illegal. No one is going to be fooled by claims of "oh I just put our corporate bitcoin address up for...uh...personal aesthetics; we weren't actually suggesting customers can pay us that way". In any case, where is the documentation for the annual audit? When the tax department looks at the corporate bank statements, what do you think they'll see? I own a company here, we are required by law to hire an external auditing agency. Do you think the auditing agency is going to, what?, just lie to the government for me when it is obvious to them I'm accepting payments in bitcoin since there is no documentation for local currency payments? The tax departments come to our office every year and goes over the books. They are looking for tax evasion, money laundering, and so on. But it would be pretty trivial to spot if someone is getting paid in Bitcoin. I'm trying to imagine how you think the conversation would go when they audit the company Bitcoin account, "Oh, gee, some bitcoin got transferred to the company account. Dunno how THAT happened! Ha ha. Guess it was just a DONATION! We were definitely NOT breaking the law! Don't look at our invoicing system that shows we marked that as a payment received for order #81351."
cesnja 7y ago
Sure, but you can be stopped from converting that Bitcoin into usable (legal) money.
- brakmic 7y ago
  Bitcoin is not less legal than any fiat money btw.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    It's far, far less widely accepted, though. Which makes it rather less useful if your primary use case for money is to buy things.
    - brakmic 7y ago
      Add a "time" variable to the equation and then come back some _time_ later. Then we can compare how many have used it in 2009, 2019, and 2029.
      - Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
        I still need to pay for food and rent/mortgage between now and then though. No point in comparing BTC acceptability in 10 years time if I can’t support myself until that point in time. Edit: For me converting BTC in funds I can use to buy food (not just for myself but also my kitty), pay my bills (rent, electricity, gas, water, internet, mobile, AWS) is a pain in the ass. Sure there are online stores they will accept bitcoin, but not my local supermarket, sure some isp’s will accept butcoin but then I’m limiting my options of who I can use. With PayPal (yes I hate them just as much as everyone else) I can get an invoice paid and have the funds in my bank account seconds later. I like the idea of a decentralised Payment process. But atm it’s not for me for a number of reasons not just acceptability.
        brakmic 7y ago
        Never said you should give up anything. Only that things take time. In 2009 you couldn't buy anything with cryptocurrencies. Today you not only can buy many things but in many countries (and regimes!) cryptocurrencies are the only way to preserve a little of what's left from previous wealth. Think Venezuela.
cpach 7y ago
As a consumer, I would only pay with Bitcoin if it was something that I really really wanted. Usually there are competitors that will accept credit cards, so I would prefer them. Bitcoin offers nothing to me that I value.
- lawn 7y ago
  One potential benefit (which merchants so far don't show you) is that cryptos is free for the merchants to accept. Credit cards can take a massive chunk out of your profit and they're open to charge back fraud. Cryptocurrencies remove those fees and the risk for charge back fraud, so the merchant earns more when you pay them with cryptos. To incentivize this they could charge you less than if you paid with a credit card.
  - michaelt 7y ago
    According to [1] right now, if you want your bitcoin transaction to have a good chance of being in the next block, the fee is 18,450 satoshis, i.e. $1.11 [1] https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/ https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/
    - lawn 7y ago
      Bitcoin is a broken cryptocurrency. It's not argument against cryptocurrencies in large, only against Bitcoin specifically. For example Bitcoin Cash has a next block fee of $0.0014. [1] [1]: https://bitcoinfees.cash/ https://bitcoinfees.cash/
      - brakmic 7y ago
        LOL, "broken". However, unlike you I am not trying to advertize any cryptocurrency here. Only wanted to talk about decentralized solutions. And bcash is exactly an example of a NOT decentralized cryptocurrency. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you. Have fun with your s*coin.
        7y ago
Fnoord 7y ago
> anti crypto That word, "crypto" alone is cringeworthy. HN is very much pro cryptography...
- lawn 7y ago
  It should be obvious from the context though. "crypto" is also shortened from cryptography, why should it be exclusive to that?
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    "Crypto" should not be exclusive to mean "cryptography" however it is undesirable to reuse a shortening within the same field. Which is true in this example given "cryptocurrency" relies on "cryptography". Whoever came up with the term "crypto" for "cryptocurrency" did not think it through enough. Especially on any technical website, the usage of the newer and less relevant [1] shortening is unnecessary. TL;DR simply use the term cryptocurrency if you're discussing cryptocurrency. [1] Yes, since cryptocurrency depends on strong cryptography. If the latter is broken, cryptocurrency is also, but so it the entire Internet.
    - lawn 7y ago
      I agree that they it shouldn't be used if it's possible to mix them up (crypto shouldn't be used to mean cryptography either if it's possible to mix it up with cryptocurrencies). This was not such an instance. The English language is ever changing, we re-purpose and come up with new words all the time. In daily use "cryptocurrencies" is long to type and say, so when the context is clear it's easier to just use "crypto". Note: I actually try to use "cryptocurrencies" too.
      - Fnoord 7y ago
        > (crypto shouldn't be used to mean cryptography either if it's possible to mix it up with cryptocurrencies) > The English language is ever changing, we re-purpose and come up with new words all the time. Except that my argument isn't that the old meaning is older (ie. no appeal to tradition, nor is appeal to novelty valid); it is that the older meaning is: 1) Far more important than the new one, and 2) Far broader, widely available and adopted (NOT a niche) 3) Is a dependency for the new one. Those are 3 very good reasons why using crypto for cryptocurrency doesn't make sense, except perhaps if you're talking within the circles of that niche (hint: not here). > In daily use "cryptocurrencies" is long to type and say, so when the context is clear it's easier to just use "crypto". Use an autocomplete to make 'crypto' change to 'cryptocurrency'.
klyrs 7y ago
Except a 51% attack. Or getting locked up in prison.
marcosdumay 7y ago
> HN is traditionally anti crypto Yeah, I'm probably one of the people that you are describing. Crypto-money does not work. I would love if it worked, I also would love if somebody learned how to reverse entropy growth or got time travel working in some way. Yet, none of those work. (And yes, crypto-money isn't on the same level of those two, maybe some day somebody will manage to make it work, if so, great!) Be sure that your label of "anti crypto" is much more a tag over you than the large HN crowd.

kasperni 7y ago

In what fantasy world will a majority of companies go "Fine, I'm going to stop accepting credit cards, and rely solely on *Coin"?

brakmic 7y ago
The same fantasy world that according to some people should not have had any need for more than 5 computers worldwide. ;) https://www.pcworld.com/article/155984/worst_tech_predictions.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/155984/worst_tech_prediction...

rat87 7y ago

I'm not saying paypal is blameless (especially since their customer service is broken and proving yourself innocent is difficult) but their behavior is driven by government regulation against fraud and shady businesses. It's easy to say use decentralized solutions, like Bitcoin but then customers are more susceptible to fraud(no chargebacks for example)