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Researchers identify sleep as a reason why personality traits predict longevity

352 points by laurex 8y ago

Fogest 8y ago
It all seems to come down to sleep when looking at lifespan. Despite knowing about all the risks from not sleeping enough I still struggle to want to sleep a full 7 hours. And as the article mentions I do see those links in my personality associated with people getting a lack of sleep.
- blunte 8y ago
  I'm a natural night owl, and I love being awake while most people around me are asleep. However, with "normal" life/jobs, that is a recipe for chronic under-sleep. However, once I started working for myself, following my own schedule, I found it quite easy to get 7-8 hours of sleep per "night". I go to sleep when I want, and I usually wake up when my body wakes me up. I almost never feel tired anymore. So in my opinion, the problem is the forced schedule most people have to suffer.
  - Fogest 8y ago
    I have the same kind of problem, I much prefer the nights, but am constrained by the "normal" job schedules. Also to compound the problem I do a side medical job at events which typically happen at late evening/night or on the other side sometimes start early in the day. It makes it hard to maintain a regular schedule.
acconrad 8y ago
> the research showed that too little or too much sleep was associated with increased risk of dying – approximately 65 minutes more than, or under, the average nightly sleep duration (7 hours in this sample) was associated with a 10 per cent increased risk of dying over the course of the study This seems inaccurate on the high end. Under 6 hours has repeatedly shown to be bad. But over 8 hrs and 5 min? If the average REM sleep cycle is 1.5 hrs, then your only "perfect" window is 7.5 hrs of sleep - 9 would be detrimental? Other data suggests otherwise: https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/how-much https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/...
- klipt 8y ago
  I usually feel like I need 9 hours sleep after a good workout. Am I doomed?
  - amelius 8y ago
    I used to need 9 hours after a workout, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore after three years of weightlifting. Perhaps because I now know which exercises are bad for me. Or perhaps because I'm more careful while performing the exercises.
    - FrojoS 8y ago
      Disclaimer: Not an expert. When you do a hard workout for the first few times, there are a lot of neural adaptations. These result in very quick gains of strength within the first few weeks, I think mostly due to better muscle recruitment. At the same time, these neural adaptations are taxing on the brain/CNS. This is especially true of exercises that require intramuscular coordination. In my personal experience it makes it very hard to fall asleep when I learn a new, complex power exercise (e.g. campusing [1]). It also seems logical that you need more sleep for those neural adaptations to take place. Now, once you are experienced in the exercise, there are much less neural adaptations, hence the perceived plateau in strength gains. The way you make gains now, is mostly through muscle growth (hypertrophy) which takes much longer but doesn't tax the CNS as much. This might explain your observation of needing less sleep after intense workouts, now that you have more experience in your sport. Try a new intense exercise and you will likely experience the above described process again. Just don't injure yourself! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACyeOP-Hxo&t=5m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACyeOP-Hxo&t=5m40s
  - zzzeek 8y ago
    Yup, your risk of eventual death is about 100%
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      I know it's anecdotal but so far I haven't died.
djmips 8y ago
Maybe "the indirect link between higher trait agreeableness and risk of dying" is due to others in their environment keeping them up and they going along with it even when they are tired.
- theatraine 8y ago
  I saw this with a partner. She was extremely agreeable and would compromise her own sleep to make time for others. I suppose that doing this over time adds up and extracts a toll.
blunte 8y ago
Summary: 7 hours of sleep is ideal; +/- 1 hour of sleep is related to increased risk of death. Everything else in the article seemed to be a lot of assumption and guessing about why people got more or less sleep. Perhaps the article poorly represented the content of the study...
- samsolomon 8y ago
  I wonder if too much or too little sleep as a symptom of illness was taken into account here? It doesn't seem like the article addresses that question.
- smartbit 8y ago
  According to a military study referenced by William Dement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m it is 8h:15m +- 50min
  - blunte 8y ago
    I like this number better :). 7h is ok for me, but 8 feels so much better.
- darksaints 8y ago
  Anecdotally, I used to feel extremely tired all the time, which I remedied by trying to get more sleep than the average...usually between 8 and 9 hours. I still felt tired. However, since being diagnosed with sleep apnea and treated via CPAP, I physically can't sleep longer than 7.
  - blunte 8y ago
    True, if your "sleep" time isn't actually rest, it doesn't count as sleep. Sleep apnea, as well as other sources of disruption, prevent one from getting the natural complete deep sleep cycles. I think a lot of people don't realize when they have something like this... it's usually a partner who finally complains.
throwayEngineer 8y ago
Article gave a harsh summary, then you go to the study and they give you an abstract that explains almost nothing more without a pay wall. I would rather have the data be free, and everything else pay. There's no way to know if this is a bad study without giving them money. >Lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via the direct, indirect, and total effect of quadratic sleep duration. Although there were no other direct personality-mortality effects, higher neuroticism and agreeableness and lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via the joint indirect effects of quadratic sleep duration and higher daytime dysfunction.
- sampo 8y ago
  > nothing more without a pay wall As (almost) always, you can find the full article in Sci-Hub. It's not 2010 anymore.
theptip 8y ago
I've always been interested in the direction of causation behind the claim "too little sleep is correlated with an increased rate of death". People talk about it like it's proven that lack of sleep causes death, but is it just that many health issues cause you to sleep more/less than average? Applying that line of thought to the article, if you have a health issue that is causing you to lose sleep (e.g. due to pain or hormonal issues), is it unreasonable to think that might increase your neuroticism or decrease your extraversion? I've no idea if anyone has ever managed to determine the direction of causation here, seems like these longitudinal studies don't have the ability to disambiguate.
- dntrkv 8y ago
  If you're really interested, read the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. The book references a ton of studies that show, definitively, getting less than 7 hours of sleep is hugely detrimental to your health. The book actually talks about how psychiatric disorders cause insomnia which creates a feedback loop of getting less sleep, which amplifies the detrimental effects of the disorder, which in turn worsens the insomnia.
  - rconti 8y ago
    Seconded. He points to a ton of consequences of short sleep. Cancer being one of them.
  - deegles 8y ago
    Also the fact that as we age we gradually lose the ability to sleep...
  - theptip 8y ago
    It's on my list, this will bump it up. Thanks! Off the top of your head is there similar data on getting too much sleep? It makes a lot of sense that (past a certain point) lack of sleep could be harmful, since going without sleep is eventually fatal. However this could easily be compatible with too much sleep being harmless.
    - 8y ago
oarabbus_ 8y ago
I understand this is correlation not causation, but we have tons and tons of evidence for the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Color me highly skeptical that there are negative effects associated with sleeping 8.5+ hours, up to say, 11 hours. Beyond 11 hours of sleep, I can see an argument being made for physical morbidity from lack of movement etc. But 8-9 hours of sleep nightly - my guess would be that people who get only 7 hours of sleep tend to be more successful, have jobs and families, and access to health care. Whereas those sleeping 10 hours a night are less likely to have the income to get health care when necessary. In other words, I'd be interested to see studies which test the hypothesis that sleep deprivation has a causal effect on morbidity, while excessive sleep only has a correlation.
- keerthiko 8y ago
  I know that most forms of clinical depression and the treatment associated with it has the side effect of a desire to sleep longer. 10 hours is a normal amount of time sleeping for people on anti-depressants. I'm not entirely certain whether sleeping closer to 8 would be any better for their mental or physical well being.
  - abakker 8y ago
    This reminded me of this article - https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-effective-way-treat-depression/ https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-e... - which discusses treating depression by purposely putting patients into extremely sleep deprived states.
    - qwsxyh 8y ago
      Note that this is for bipolar sufferers rather than unipolar depression sufferers.
  - hackerbabz 8y ago
    When I finally got medical treatment for severe anxiety the sleepiness side effect from my medication was a godsend. I really think it helped me recover just knowing that no matter how horrible I was feeling, I would be asleep in an hour.
viburnum 8y ago
Ok, so if I’m anxious or depressed but I sleep the optimal number of hours, I’ll maximize longevity anyway?
- Aromasin 8y ago
  I suppose it depends on the quality of sleep. AFAIK, anxiety and depression reduce quality sleep time, which reciprocates itself into worsening anxiety and depression. Undiagnosed issues that cause the depression and anxiety in the first place often also cause sleep issues (thinking food intolerances and underlying inflammation), so it's hard to extract data to separate the two symptoms.
thewhitetulip 8y ago
Can someone be genetically blessed with not requiring 8hrs sleep? How much sleep do we need and why? A friend of mine is a security researcher and he has been awake for one entire week by napping barely 10min for the full week
- dntrkv 8y ago
  There is a tiny fraction of the population that has a certain gene that allows them to get by on less sleep[0], but definitely not 10 min for an entire week. [0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover-how-gene-mutation-reduces-need-sleep https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover...
- wolf7 8y ago
  You can be genetically blessed. The "gene variant ‘p.Tyr362His’" let's one get by on less than 5 hrs of sleep. See: Margaret Thatcher. A friend of mine that got 2 Bachelors and 2 Masters degrees in 4 years might've had that, though he said he just got used to the lack of sleep. source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11006181/Thatcher-gene-is-key-to-needing-less-sleep.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/110061...
  - Maximus9000 8y ago
    If I recall correctly, the odds of you having that gene variant are somewhere in the realm of getting struck by lightning. Also, Margaret Thatcher went on to develop Alzheimers. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-deprivation-increases-alzheimers-protein https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-d...
  - 013a 8y ago
    Its kind of amazing to me that we haven't heard more, or maybe aren't seeing more, research into drugs or therapy which could reduce the amount of sleep people need. We'd be talking about the greatest boon to global productivity in the history of mankind, likely singularly more impactful than any other technology we've ever developed. The company which develops it could sell it for literally any price and they'd have people scrambling for it. Not suggesting its easy, or possible, but its just surprising to me that I don't hear anyone talking about it. Modafinil might be the closest I've seen but its obviously not for long-term use. Google/Alphabet is pouring hundreds of millions into Calico to fight aging, but fighting Sleep feels like a much easier target that could have much more impactful consequences (extending life from 80 to 100 isn't nearly as interesting as giving a ~30 year old even 10% more time with their younger body and mind). And once its solved we'll inevitably flip into a dystopian society where the poor either can't afford the drug and thus become poorer, or are the only ones taking it because they now have to work 22 hours a day, but Hey, we'll worry about that when we get there.
coldtea 8y ago
In other words, the wages of hustle are death.
sigstoat 8y ago
since everyone is so hot on correlation and causation in this thread: i've seen some nice looking charts of all(?) the ways causation might work between two variables that are correlated. they have maybe 14-16 nice little directed graphs to them. anyone happen to remember/recognize what i'm describing and have a link to it?
- AdamSC1 8y ago
  I don't think this is what you are looking for, but, it put me in mind of the book Spurious Correlation that shows how easy it is for things to seem related: https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
rofo1 8y ago
Based on my experience, I can say that after very difficult strength workout like rings, 1 arm pullups, iron cross, etc., there is a huge difference in recovery on the days that I sleep 11 hours vs. the days that I sleep 8 hours only. On the other hand, sleeping less than 8 hours a day is devastating (check the book 'Why We Sleep' for details) Moreover, I've read that this was known among 19th century strongmen (Eugene Sandow slept 11+ hours a day). So whatever happens during sleep, we need more of it (if we stress our body more). I highly doubt that in itself (sleeping more) is detrimental in any way.
- wppick 8y ago
  I have also seen similar recovery benefits from longer (11+) hours sleeps. During a period of a few months I worked out heavily every day, and noticed better recovery and faster strength gains from the longer sleeps. One downside with the longer sleeps was that I would not get tired at the same time each night, so my sleep window moved later and later until I needed to skip a night's sleep to reset, so I was probably sleeping more than my normal rhythms required
- samatman 8y ago
  I'm half-convinced my gains all come from afternoon naps after large protein-rich meals the day after training. Might be an age thing but I'm seldom able to stay in bed for more than seven, eight hours at most. Fortunate to have a lifestyle that supports taking naps a few times a week.
fauigerzigerk 8y ago
I wonder whether the link between sleeping less and eating more (or for longer hours) has been studied. What if you sleep only five hours but restrict eating to the same hours as someone sleeping seven hours? If sleeping is about giving the body a break, it seems pretty obvious that not eating would be a major part of that.
elamje 8y ago
I find that people tend to believe there is a specific amount of time, or even range of time that is ideal. The body is massively complex and ideal sleep time is completely different on a person to person basis. You must understand that there is no ideal sleep for you that a study will be able to identify, you need to test your own hypotheses and decide for yourself.
deleted 8y ago
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mevile 8y ago
I can't imagine that all that stress to min/max health outcomes through strict behavior changes is good for you or worth it in the long run. I subscribe to some nutrition and fitness subreddits and I see people obsessing about minute details of what they eat, how much they sleep, obsessing to take control over every facet of their lives because of some study they read on the internet. I contend that worrying about these things is counter productive. Of course you should get enough sleep, you should exercise regularly and generally eat healthy. Check with your doctor, but this will probably be enough to avoid life style inflicted harm long term. Strict controls and obsessive attention to your everyday life to maybe postpone death by some unknown amount of time, probably not worth it. Death sucks, but it's inevitable and no amount of finessing health choices will change that.
- carrier_lost 8y ago
  I agree. Sacrificing your mental health for your physical health is counterproductive to the goal of whole well-being. Obsession is harmful. Moderation is key.
- trophycase 8y ago
  While I agree, unfortunately sleep when you're tired and eat when you're hungry doesn't exactly apply well to the modern first world
- bgroat 8y ago
  I have a habit of going down this rabbit hole. I always rebalance myself by asking, "Am I Bruce Wayne?" If the answer remains 'no' than this doesn't require as much thought as I'm currently giving it
- chillwaves 8y ago
  Easy to say when you are healthy. Some folks have more to worry about than others.
majkinetor 8y ago
I always sleep like a baby on weed, that must mean I will live forever (yeeey). On the other hand, tomorrow I often feel tired throughout a day, even more then as if I slept 4-5 hours without a weed, which might mean I should start looking for a parcel (meh). This study just gave me cognitive dissonance.
- rocgf 8y ago
  According to some videos in which Matthew Walker (the author of "Why we sleep") is answering some Q&As on the Internet, he briefly talks about weed and alcohol. Both these drugs are used as sedatives, but they are not good for your sleep. Your sleep cycles are just not the same (e.g. you don't get to REM as much) and it is considered detrimental for your sleep. As others have mentioned in this thread, I highly recommend reading "Why we sleep" by M. Walker. It's one of the best books I've read.
- Jimpulse 8y ago
  I think there's some studies that have found that THC may reduce REM sleep. So while you're sleeping more easily, you're getting less "restful" sleep than you would sober.
- rriepe 8y ago
  Weed withdrawal causes insomnia, especially in heavy/daily users. If you want to see how much sleep you actually get without being on weed, you should take an 8-week break first.
  - opportune 8y ago
    I recently took an 8 week break and I noticed sleep returning to "normal" after about 1-2 weeks. I had a couple nightmares while in REM rebound though which really sucked and never happens to me otherwise
    - majkinetor 8y ago
      My experience too. Around second week insomnia is away but dreams return... often not in a good way.
julienreszka 8y ago
Garbage in garbage out. Their data is worthless
frequentnapper 8y ago
i'm wondering if midday napping was factored in
- derangedHorse 8y ago
  A fitting username lol
  - quickthrower2 8y ago
    I hope your's isn't.
tylerjwilk00 8y ago
For anyone with sever deviated septum who has trouble sleeping because they can't breath through their nose which often causes excessive dry mouth, I highly recommend trying [1] Nose Vents. Since using them I get much better sleep, don't wake up with dry mouth and a need to drink water all night. It only takes a few nights to get used to them. I use the largest silicone pair, despite the fact that it seems like its a tad to large, because it widens the nostril to ease breathing. Your mileage may vary. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/
- sameAsYou 8y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion. I'd like to add that I use Breathe Right strips and they seem to help a lot.

352 points by laurex 8y ago

It all seems to come down to sleep when looking at lifespan. Despite knowing about all the risks from not sleeping enough I still struggle to want to sleep a full 7 hours. And as the article mentions I do see those links in my personality associated with people getting a lack of sleep.

blunte 8y ago
I'm a natural night owl, and I love being awake while most people around me are asleep. However, with "normal" life/jobs, that is a recipe for chronic under-sleep. However, once I started working for myself, following my own schedule, I found it quite easy to get 7-8 hours of sleep per "night". I go to sleep when I want, and I usually wake up when my body wakes me up. I almost never feel tired anymore. So in my opinion, the problem is the forced schedule most people have to suffer.
- Fogest 8y ago
  I have the same kind of problem, I much prefer the nights, but am constrained by the "normal" job schedules. Also to compound the problem I do a side medical job at events which typically happen at late evening/night or on the other side sometimes start early in the day. It makes it hard to maintain a regular schedule.

acconrad 8y ago

> the research showed that too little or too much sleep was associated with increased risk of dying – approximately 65 minutes more than, or under, the average nightly sleep duration (7 hours in this sample) was associated with a 10 per cent increased risk of dying over the course of the study This seems inaccurate on the high end. Under 6 hours has repeatedly shown to be bad. But over 8 hrs and 5 min? If the average REM sleep cycle is 1.5 hrs, then your only "perfect" window is 7.5 hrs of sleep - 9 would be detrimental? Other data suggests otherwise: https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/how-much https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/...

klipt 8y ago
I usually feel like I need 9 hours sleep after a good workout. Am I doomed?
- amelius 8y ago
  I used to need 9 hours after a workout, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore after three years of weightlifting. Perhaps because I now know which exercises are bad for me. Or perhaps because I'm more careful while performing the exercises.
  - FrojoS 8y ago
    Disclaimer: Not an expert. When you do a hard workout for the first few times, there are a lot of neural adaptations. These result in very quick gains of strength within the first few weeks, I think mostly due to better muscle recruitment. At the same time, these neural adaptations are taxing on the brain/CNS. This is especially true of exercises that require intramuscular coordination. In my personal experience it makes it very hard to fall asleep when I learn a new, complex power exercise (e.g. campusing [1]). It also seems logical that you need more sleep for those neural adaptations to take place. Now, once you are experienced in the exercise, there are much less neural adaptations, hence the perceived plateau in strength gains. The way you make gains now, is mostly through muscle growth (hypertrophy) which takes much longer but doesn't tax the CNS as much. This might explain your observation of needing less sleep after intense workouts, now that you have more experience in your sport. Try a new intense exercise and you will likely experience the above described process again. Just don't injure yourself! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACyeOP-Hxo&t=5m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACyeOP-Hxo&t=5m40s
- zzzeek 8y ago
  Yup, your risk of eventual death is about 100%
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    I know it's anecdotal but so far I haven't died.

djmips 8y ago

Maybe "the indirect link between higher trait agreeableness and risk of dying" is due to others in their environment keeping them up and they going along with it even when they are tired.

theatraine 8y ago
I saw this with a partner. She was extremely agreeable and would compromise her own sleep to make time for others. I suppose that doing this over time adds up and extracts a toll.

blunte 8y ago

Summary: 7 hours of sleep is ideal; +/- 1 hour of sleep is related to increased risk of death. Everything else in the article seemed to be a lot of assumption and guessing about why people got more or less sleep. Perhaps the article poorly represented the content of the study...

samsolomon 8y ago
I wonder if too much or too little sleep as a symptom of illness was taken into account here? It doesn't seem like the article addresses that question.
smartbit 8y ago
According to a military study referenced by William Dement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m it is 8h:15m +- 50min
- blunte 8y ago
  I like this number better :). 7h is ok for me, but 8 feels so much better.
darksaints 8y ago
Anecdotally, I used to feel extremely tired all the time, which I remedied by trying to get more sleep than the average...usually between 8 and 9 hours. I still felt tired. However, since being diagnosed with sleep apnea and treated via CPAP, I physically can't sleep longer than 7.
- blunte 8y ago
  True, if your "sleep" time isn't actually rest, it doesn't count as sleep. Sleep apnea, as well as other sources of disruption, prevent one from getting the natural complete deep sleep cycles. I think a lot of people don't realize when they have something like this... it's usually a partner who finally complains.

throwayEngineer 8y ago

Article gave a harsh summary, then you go to the study and they give you an abstract that explains almost nothing more without a pay wall. I would rather have the data be free, and everything else pay. There's no way to know if this is a bad study without giving them money. >Lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via the direct, indirect, and total effect of quadratic sleep duration. Although there were no other direct personality-mortality effects, higher neuroticism and agreeableness and lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via the joint indirect effects of quadratic sleep duration and higher daytime dysfunction.

sampo 8y ago
> nothing more without a pay wall As (almost) always, you can find the full article in Sci-Hub. It's not 2010 anymore.

theptip 8y ago

I've always been interested in the direction of causation behind the claim "too little sleep is correlated with an increased rate of death". People talk about it like it's proven that lack of sleep causes death, but is it just that many health issues cause you to sleep more/less than average? Applying that line of thought to the article, if you have a health issue that is causing you to lose sleep (e.g. due to pain or hormonal issues), is it unreasonable to think that might increase your neuroticism or decrease your extraversion? I've no idea if anyone has ever managed to determine the direction of causation here, seems like these longitudinal studies don't have the ability to disambiguate.

dntrkv 8y ago
If you're really interested, read the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. The book references a ton of studies that show, definitively, getting less than 7 hours of sleep is hugely detrimental to your health. The book actually talks about how psychiatric disorders cause insomnia which creates a feedback loop of getting less sleep, which amplifies the detrimental effects of the disorder, which in turn worsens the insomnia.
- rconti 8y ago
  Seconded. He points to a ton of consequences of short sleep. Cancer being one of them.
- deegles 8y ago
  Also the fact that as we age we gradually lose the ability to sleep...
- theptip 8y ago
  It's on my list, this will bump it up. Thanks! Off the top of your head is there similar data on getting too much sleep? It makes a lot of sense that (past a certain point) lack of sleep could be harmful, since going without sleep is eventually fatal. However this could easily be compatible with too much sleep being harmless.
  - 8y ago

oarabbus_ 8y ago

I understand this is correlation not causation, but we have tons and tons of evidence for the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Color me highly skeptical that there are negative effects associated with sleeping 8.5+ hours, up to say, 11 hours. Beyond 11 hours of sleep, I can see an argument being made for physical morbidity from lack of movement etc. But 8-9 hours of sleep nightly - my guess would be that people who get only 7 hours of sleep tend to be more successful, have jobs and families, and access to health care. Whereas those sleeping 10 hours a night are less likely to have the income to get health care when necessary. In other words, I'd be interested to see studies which test the hypothesis that sleep deprivation has a causal effect on morbidity, while excessive sleep only has a correlation.

keerthiko 8y ago
I know that most forms of clinical depression and the treatment associated with it has the side effect of a desire to sleep longer. 10 hours is a normal amount of time sleeping for people on anti-depressants. I'm not entirely certain whether sleeping closer to 8 would be any better for their mental or physical well being.
- abakker 8y ago
  This reminded me of this article - https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-effective-way-treat-depression/ https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-e... - which discusses treating depression by purposely putting patients into extremely sleep deprived states.
  - qwsxyh 8y ago
    Note that this is for bipolar sufferers rather than unipolar depression sufferers.
- hackerbabz 8y ago
  When I finally got medical treatment for severe anxiety the sleepiness side effect from my medication was a godsend. I really think it helped me recover just knowing that no matter how horrible I was feeling, I would be asleep in an hour.

viburnum 8y ago

Ok, so if I’m anxious or depressed but I sleep the optimal number of hours, I’ll maximize longevity anyway?

Aromasin 8y ago
I suppose it depends on the quality of sleep. AFAIK, anxiety and depression reduce quality sleep time, which reciprocates itself into worsening anxiety and depression. Undiagnosed issues that cause the depression and anxiety in the first place often also cause sleep issues (thinking food intolerances and underlying inflammation), so it's hard to extract data to separate the two symptoms.

thewhitetulip 8y ago

Can someone be genetically blessed with not requiring 8hrs sleep? How much sleep do we need and why? A friend of mine is a security researcher and he has been awake for one entire week by napping barely 10min for the full week

dntrkv 8y ago
There is a tiny fraction of the population that has a certain gene that allows them to get by on less sleep[0], but definitely not 10 min for an entire week. [0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover-how-gene-mutation-reduces-need-sleep https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover...
wolf7 8y ago
You can be genetically blessed. The "gene variant ‘p.Tyr362His’" let's one get by on less than 5 hrs of sleep. See: Margaret Thatcher. A friend of mine that got 2 Bachelors and 2 Masters degrees in 4 years might've had that, though he said he just got used to the lack of sleep. source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11006181/Thatcher-gene-is-key-to-needing-less-sleep.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/110061...
- Maximus9000 8y ago
  If I recall correctly, the odds of you having that gene variant are somewhere in the realm of getting struck by lightning. Also, Margaret Thatcher went on to develop Alzheimers. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-deprivation-increases-alzheimers-protein https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-d...
- 013a 8y ago
  Its kind of amazing to me that we haven't heard more, or maybe aren't seeing more, research into drugs or therapy which could reduce the amount of sleep people need. We'd be talking about the greatest boon to global productivity in the history of mankind, likely singularly more impactful than any other technology we've ever developed. The company which develops it could sell it for literally any price and they'd have people scrambling for it. Not suggesting its easy, or possible, but its just surprising to me that I don't hear anyone talking about it. Modafinil might be the closest I've seen but its obviously not for long-term use. Google/Alphabet is pouring hundreds of millions into Calico to fight aging, but fighting Sleep feels like a much easier target that could have much more impactful consequences (extending life from 80 to 100 isn't nearly as interesting as giving a ~30 year old even 10% more time with their younger body and mind). And once its solved we'll inevitably flip into a dystopian society where the poor either can't afford the drug and thus become poorer, or are the only ones taking it because they now have to work 22 hours a day, but Hey, we'll worry about that when we get there.

coldtea 8y ago

In other words, the wages of hustle are death.

sigstoat 8y ago

since everyone is so hot on correlation and causation in this thread: i've seen some nice looking charts of all(?) the ways causation might work between two variables that are correlated. they have maybe 14-16 nice little directed graphs to them. anyone happen to remember/recognize what i'm describing and have a link to it?

AdamSC1 8y ago
I don't think this is what you are looking for, but, it put me in mind of the book Spurious Correlation that shows how easy it is for things to seem related: https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

rofo1 8y ago

Based on my experience, I can say that after very difficult strength workout like rings, 1 arm pullups, iron cross, etc., there is a huge difference in recovery on the days that I sleep 11 hours vs. the days that I sleep 8 hours only. On the other hand, sleeping less than 8 hours a day is devastating (check the book 'Why We Sleep' for details) Moreover, I've read that this was known among 19th century strongmen (Eugene Sandow slept 11+ hours a day). So whatever happens during sleep, we need more of it (if we stress our body more). I highly doubt that in itself (sleeping more) is detrimental in any way.

wppick 8y ago
I have also seen similar recovery benefits from longer (11+) hours sleeps. During a period of a few months I worked out heavily every day, and noticed better recovery and faster strength gains from the longer sleeps. One downside with the longer sleeps was that I would not get tired at the same time each night, so my sleep window moved later and later until I needed to skip a night's sleep to reset, so I was probably sleeping more than my normal rhythms required
samatman 8y ago
I'm half-convinced my gains all come from afternoon naps after large protein-rich meals the day after training. Might be an age thing but I'm seldom able to stay in bed for more than seven, eight hours at most. Fortunate to have a lifestyle that supports taking naps a few times a week.

fauigerzigerk 8y ago

I wonder whether the link between sleeping less and eating more (or for longer hours) has been studied. What if you sleep only five hours but restrict eating to the same hours as someone sleeping seven hours? If sleeping is about giving the body a break, it seems pretty obvious that not eating would be a major part of that.

elamje 8y ago

I find that people tend to believe there is a specific amount of time, or even range of time that is ideal. The body is massively complex and ideal sleep time is completely different on a person to person basis. You must understand that there is no ideal sleep for you that a study will be able to identify, you need to test your own hypotheses and decide for yourself.

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mevile 8y ago

I can't imagine that all that stress to min/max health outcomes through strict behavior changes is good for you or worth it in the long run. I subscribe to some nutrition and fitness subreddits and I see people obsessing about minute details of what they eat, how much they sleep, obsessing to take control over every facet of their lives because of some study they read on the internet. I contend that worrying about these things is counter productive. Of course you should get enough sleep, you should exercise regularly and generally eat healthy. Check with your doctor, but this will probably be enough to avoid life style inflicted harm long term. Strict controls and obsessive attention to your everyday life to maybe postpone death by some unknown amount of time, probably not worth it. Death sucks, but it's inevitable and no amount of finessing health choices will change that.

carrier_lost 8y ago
I agree. Sacrificing your mental health for your physical health is counterproductive to the goal of whole well-being. Obsession is harmful. Moderation is key.
trophycase 8y ago
While I agree, unfortunately sleep when you're tired and eat when you're hungry doesn't exactly apply well to the modern first world
bgroat 8y ago
I have a habit of going down this rabbit hole. I always rebalance myself by asking, "Am I Bruce Wayne?" If the answer remains 'no' than this doesn't require as much thought as I'm currently giving it
chillwaves 8y ago
Easy to say when you are healthy. Some folks have more to worry about than others.

majkinetor 8y ago

I always sleep like a baby on weed, that must mean I will live forever (yeeey). On the other hand, tomorrow I often feel tired throughout a day, even more then as if I slept 4-5 hours without a weed, which might mean I should start looking for a parcel (meh). This study just gave me cognitive dissonance.

rocgf 8y ago
According to some videos in which Matthew Walker (the author of "Why we sleep") is answering some Q&As on the Internet, he briefly talks about weed and alcohol. Both these drugs are used as sedatives, but they are not good for your sleep. Your sleep cycles are just not the same (e.g. you don't get to REM as much) and it is considered detrimental for your sleep. As others have mentioned in this thread, I highly recommend reading "Why we sleep" by M. Walker. It's one of the best books I've read.
Jimpulse 8y ago
I think there's some studies that have found that THC may reduce REM sleep. So while you're sleeping more easily, you're getting less "restful" sleep than you would sober.
rriepe 8y ago
Weed withdrawal causes insomnia, especially in heavy/daily users. If you want to see how much sleep you actually get without being on weed, you should take an 8-week break first.
- opportune 8y ago
  I recently took an 8 week break and I noticed sleep returning to "normal" after about 1-2 weeks. I had a couple nightmares while in REM rebound though which really sucked and never happens to me otherwise
  - majkinetor 8y ago
    My experience too. Around second week insomnia is away but dreams return... often not in a good way.

julienreszka 8y ago

Garbage in garbage out. Their data is worthless

frequentnapper 8y ago

i'm wondering if midday napping was factored in

derangedHorse 8y ago
A fitting username lol
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  I hope your's isn't.

tylerjwilk00 8y ago

For anyone with sever deviated septum who has trouble sleeping because they can't breath through their nose which often causes excessive dry mouth, I highly recommend trying [1] Nose Vents. Since using them I get much better sleep, don't wake up with dry mouth and a need to drink water all night. It only takes a few nights to get used to them. I use the largest silicone pair, despite the fact that it seems like its a tad to large, because it widens the nostril to ease breathing. Your mileage may vary. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/

sameAsYou 8y ago
Thanks for the suggestion. I'd like to add that I use Breathe Right strips and they seem to help a lot.