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One thing that I fail to wrap my mind around: aren’t all those corporations executives, politicians, and poachers living on the same planet Earth as all of us?

One thing that I fail to wrap my mind around: aren’t all those corporations executives, politicians, and poachers living on the same planet Earth as all of us? Don’t they ever think that they’re actually destroying our planet and there’s no other place to live? I can imagine that they don’t believe pro-climate change people, but they could simply hire an independent group of researchers, don’t they? And I mean actually independent researchers, not those who will produce any outcome you demand from them.

TheBeardKing 7y ago
All that matters is having enough money so that you end up better than everyone else. Environmentalists, social democrats, those people are concerned about the welfare of society and the world at large. Too many greedy capitalists care only about themselves and their own family and are unwilling to sacrifice their own comfort for the preservation or betterment of anything else. As long as you can bubble yourself off from the worst of it for a few generations, and afford the necessary survival solutions, things aren't that bad.
- DamnYuppie 7y ago
  It would be more accurate if you replaced "greedy capitalists" with "humanity". I have been all over the world and materialism that is so denounced as a US/capitalist vice is actually prevalent EVERYWHERE. The desire to improve ones life and acquire material is universal to all people regardless of the ruling structure of their country. It is my opinion that what we need to focus on is a reduction of consumerism that prioritizes short term gratification; the "greedy capitalist" can't make money if no one is buying.
  - TheBeardKing 7y ago
    Of course it's a spectrum, but on one end you have people with a sense of fairness, a social conscience, a conservationist attitude, and actually weigh the environmental impact of their decisions. On the other end, you have people who choose comfort, convenience, and greed in all aspects of their life. Capitalists who weigh profit over every other criteria in their decisions are the people who I'm talking about.
  - ionised 7y ago
    You're equating the human drive for a better life with capitalism. This is a common propaganda talking point that attempts to paint 'capitalism' as a natural drive rather than an ideology. Capitalism is merely the private ownership of the means of production (i.e. farms, factories, utilities etc.) for personal profit. Capitalism is not the same as resource collection or trade. Capitalism is a specific model of how to manage those resources and trade in society. And let's not pretend like its the garbage pickers in Bangladesh, or the subsistence farmer in Kenya, or the local shopkeeper in London that is the problem here. It's the elite class of hyper-capitalists for whom greed is a mantra. It's these people that cut costs in favour of using plastic packaging for their mass-produced crap. People weren't clamouring at the gates of the company demanding their shitty sugar water in plastic bottles. It's these people that have lobbied and coerced for the perverse incentives we see in capitalism today. These are the people who will never stop trying to sell you cheap shit and it is these people who will continue to buy off your representatives to ensure that the healthy ecosystem the 99% of us need to survive is theirs to rape. Don't blame the average person. They are not even close to the main problem. The main problem throughout history has always been the same; a small cartel of obscenely wealthy individuals and families with an out-sized share of wealth and power, and the divisions they sew amongst us to entrench themselves.
peey 7y ago
They will just usually say "let the others do it". Game theory says that all parties could be better off by co-operating but if you get benefit if you defect while others co-operate then everyone would end up defecting. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#International_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#Internation... for an example.
nickflood 7y ago
I mean, I live in Russia and I ask myself the same question about our "president". And the North Korea, that's a nightmare on a country scale. It seems, once you get up there, your humanity somehow gets abstracted away by either power or groups with interests...
twright 7y ago
> Don’t they ever think that they’re actually destroying our planet and there’s no other place to live? They might, but monetarily speaking, they can afford it. See: home protection via private firefighters [1], ability to buy citizenship in nations which will be less (only a little less) affected by rising surface temperatures [2], and of course more extreme prepper stuff [3]. [1]: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/private-firefighters-california-wealthy-wildfires https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/priva... [2]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/silicon-valley-doomsday-preppers-new-zealand-2017-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/silicon-valley-doomsday-p... [3]: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-...
z0r 7y ago
This isn't the outcome of just a small group of 'bad guys'. Extinction is a byproduct of the increased footprint of humankind as our populations and their associated demands grow. Climate change is one problem, but it isn't the full problem. For example, you need education (to reduce demand for poached goods), political and economic stability (to reduce conditions of poverty that make poaching a rewarding pursuit, or which might drive people to despoil the natural environment to survive in extreme conditions), and somehow a way to defuse the current engine that requires population growth to fuel economic growth.
- TheBeardKing 7y ago
  Sorry, but in the US at least, if you vote Republican, you are working actively against solutions.
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    And if you vote mainstream Democrat as well ;-)
    - TheBeardKing 7y ago
      I don't know of a mainstream Democrat who doesn't support mainstream policies in conservation, the Paris Climate Accord, fuel efficiency standards, environmental research and protection, climate science, etc. These are all things the current GOP is taking real steps backwards on, so mainstream D vs the majority of Rs doesn't even come close. And in general or national elections you don't have much of a choice but to support the mainstream candidate who comes closest to a sane environmental choice.
    - camgunz 7y ago
      Almost all Democrats since Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth (and many before) have supported various levels of action on climate change. "Mainstream" Democrats and "socialist" Democrats agree like 99% on policy. The differences are primarily cultural and trumped up by Republicans and the media.
  - 7y ago
e40 7y ago
I had this thought every time I see a certain group in the US demonizing the EPA. We all use the same air, water and soil. Aren't they afraid if their kids take in the toxins that are allowed into said resources because the EPA's funding is cut or they push through laws that prevent the EPA from doing what they should be doing??
- mattnewton 7y ago
  Maybe they don’t think they will suffer the consequences because they can screen their own water and soil. It could be that they have a scarcity mindset where their potential wealth is being used to test soil and water of other people at the expense of protecting them.
Bluestrike2 7y ago
That's the not-so-funny element. Companies like Exxon were the first to hire independent researchers back in the 70s and helped pioneer climate research, with management being briefed on the as far back as 1977, and had developed its own models by 1982 that were widely circulated within the company.[0][1] That research was allowed to continue for nearly a decade, and Exxon researchers consulted on DOE research and reports throughout the 80s. It wasn't hidden, either within the company or without, until management decided to take a somewhat different approach with its lobbying efforts. They saw the word "uncertainty" with regards to climate modeling as a lifeline, and they took it. It's easy to generalize interested parties that promote climate change denialism as not giving a damn since they'll be long dead before the worst consequences hit. That may very well be a partial explanation, but if you look at how some of the rhetoric has shifted with talk of geoengineering, there's this idea that a future generation will be able to deploy technical fixes. And once you buy into the hope that offers, it's inevitable that you'll downplay the sheer cost and scale of such an intervention. After all, computers are cheaper now than they were in the 80s, so who knows how expensive geoengineering will be in a few decades? There's a hope that an easier, cheaper solution will present itself in the future. So I think a larger part of the answer isn't so much that corporate executives and politicians don't believe in climate change (though there are probably plenty who have bought into their own spin), as it is that they've pinned their hopes on the terribly alluring delusion that maybe it'll be cheaper to reverse the trend tomorrow than make the sort of difficult choices needed to start mitigating it today. Or, more accurately, over three decades ago. 0. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-... 1. https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18092015/exxon-confirmed-global-warming-consensus-in-1982-with-in-house-climate-models https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18092015/exxon-confirmed-...
- rossenberg79 7y ago
  What if it actually is cheaper though to reverse trends in the future? The companies that weren’t taking full advantage now will be forever playing catch-up in the future, or shut down entirely.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
rihegher 7y ago
reading your comment made me think about this video where a green activist ask during a session with lawmakers in Luxembourg « who among you has read the ipcc report ? » https://youtu.be/KSxIbJlkKD0 https://youtu.be/KSxIbJlkKD0
knz 7y ago
Don't underestimate the ability of people to ignore evidence if it challenges their personal beliefs. I know way too many retired engineers who refuse to believe the science because a certain TV network has convinced them that it's a political hoax. That attitude even trickles down to more local issues -https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/02/20/3m-vs-minnesota-water-pollution-pfc-chemical-trial-primer https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/02/20/3m-vs-minnesota-wat... here in MN for example. Many of the people I refer to above are 3M'ers and believe that the State is extorting 3M. A couple of them are very vocally opposed to anyone installing water filters because of this.
pastor_elm 7y ago
What are they supposed to do? Run their company into the ground to be a sacrificial lamb in our capitalist society? Humanity is still a competition. Worrying about nature will get you bulldozed.
mperham 7y ago
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
ddebernardy 7y ago
They're investing in apocalypse bunkers. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doomsday-preppers/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doo...
anigbrowl 7y ago
About 30% of people seem wired as non-cooperators even when this is disadvantageous; they only ever transact competitively. That's a good trait to have for certain social niches; but to the extent that those social roles shape the environment for everyone else it's a problem.
13415 7y ago
Pointing with the finger on others is not going to help. We're destroying our planet together. Nearly everyone is involved, and most of the problems are hard to solve because they are 1. collective action problems whose right solution is not a Nash equilibrium, and 2. involve long term risks. Humans are not bad at solving the first category, according to some theories social institutions evolve out of a need to solve these kind of problems, but we're very bad at the second category, as every smoker can attest you. Humanity has never displayed any ability to think and plan ahead fifty or hundred years, let alone longer periods.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
amelius 7y ago
We live in a winner-takes-all world, or conversely, an eat-or-be-eaten world. Giving in to the environment means your competitor is now one step ahead of you. This holds for individuals (politicians), companies, and even countries (e.g. US versus China).
- defterGoose 7y ago
  Yes, now watch me derive all of human history from first Darwinian principles. (smh) Edit: got me with that downvote.
gdubs 7y ago
A lot of people live pretty disconnected from nature. In cities and suburbs it can feel like we’ve conquered nature; so it can be hard for people to grasp how dependent we still are on biodiversity. We’re also poorly wired for prioritizing long term plans over short term rewards. Even when, rationally, we know a crisis is looming. Then there’s plain old cognitive dissonance — our inability to accept facts that conflict with our worldview. And lastly: being wealthy and powerful doesn’t always equate with being intelligent.
mooseburger 7y ago
Don't try to scapegoat, it's a collective action problem, everyone on the planet is responsible for this. Think about how painful it would be for you to totally wean yourself off fossil fuels. It's the same at the nation level.

TheBeardKing 7y ago

All that matters is having enough money so that you end up better than everyone else. Environmentalists, social democrats, those people are concerned about the welfare of society and the world at large. Too many greedy capitalists care only about themselves and their own family and are unwilling to sacrifice their own comfort for the preservation or betterment of anything else. As long as you can bubble yourself off from the worst of it for a few generations, and afford the necessary survival solutions, things aren't that bad.

DamnYuppie 7y ago
It would be more accurate if you replaced "greedy capitalists" with "humanity". I have been all over the world and materialism that is so denounced as a US/capitalist vice is actually prevalent EVERYWHERE. The desire to improve ones life and acquire material is universal to all people regardless of the ruling structure of their country. It is my opinion that what we need to focus on is a reduction of consumerism that prioritizes short term gratification; the "greedy capitalist" can't make money if no one is buying.
- TheBeardKing 7y ago
  Of course it's a spectrum, but on one end you have people with a sense of fairness, a social conscience, a conservationist attitude, and actually weigh the environmental impact of their decisions. On the other end, you have people who choose comfort, convenience, and greed in all aspects of their life. Capitalists who weigh profit over every other criteria in their decisions are the people who I'm talking about.
- ionised 7y ago
  You're equating the human drive for a better life with capitalism. This is a common propaganda talking point that attempts to paint 'capitalism' as a natural drive rather than an ideology. Capitalism is merely the private ownership of the means of production (i.e. farms, factories, utilities etc.) for personal profit. Capitalism is not the same as resource collection or trade. Capitalism is a specific model of how to manage those resources and trade in society. And let's not pretend like its the garbage pickers in Bangladesh, or the subsistence farmer in Kenya, or the local shopkeeper in London that is the problem here. It's the elite class of hyper-capitalists for whom greed is a mantra. It's these people that cut costs in favour of using plastic packaging for their mass-produced crap. People weren't clamouring at the gates of the company demanding their shitty sugar water in plastic bottles. It's these people that have lobbied and coerced for the perverse incentives we see in capitalism today. These are the people who will never stop trying to sell you cheap shit and it is these people who will continue to buy off your representatives to ensure that the healthy ecosystem the 99% of us need to survive is theirs to rape. Don't blame the average person. They are not even close to the main problem. The main problem throughout history has always been the same; a small cartel of obscenely wealthy individuals and families with an out-sized share of wealth and power, and the divisions they sew amongst us to entrench themselves.

peey 7y ago

They will just usually say "let the others do it". Game theory says that all parties could be better off by co-operating but if you get benefit if you defect while others co-operate then everyone would end up defecting. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#International_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#Internation... for an example.

nickflood 7y ago

I mean, I live in Russia and I ask myself the same question about our "president". And the North Korea, that's a nightmare on a country scale. It seems, once you get up there, your humanity somehow gets abstracted away by either power or groups with interests...

twright 7y ago

> Don’t they ever think that they’re actually destroying our planet and there’s no other place to live? They might, but monetarily speaking, they can afford it. See: home protection via private firefighters [1], ability to buy citizenship in nations which will be less (only a little less) affected by rising surface temperatures [2], and of course more extreme prepper stuff [3]. [1]: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/private-firefighters-california-wealthy-wildfires https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/priva... [2]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/silicon-valley-doomsday-preppers-new-zealand-2017-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/silicon-valley-doomsday-p... [3]: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-...

z0r 7y ago

This isn't the outcome of just a small group of 'bad guys'. Extinction is a byproduct of the increased footprint of humankind as our populations and their associated demands grow. Climate change is one problem, but it isn't the full problem. For example, you need education (to reduce demand for poached goods), political and economic stability (to reduce conditions of poverty that make poaching a rewarding pursuit, or which might drive people to despoil the natural environment to survive in extreme conditions), and somehow a way to defuse the current engine that requires population growth to fuel economic growth.

TheBeardKing 7y ago
Sorry, but in the US at least, if you vote Republican, you are working actively against solutions.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  And if you vote mainstream Democrat as well ;-)
  - TheBeardKing 7y ago
    I don't know of a mainstream Democrat who doesn't support mainstream policies in conservation, the Paris Climate Accord, fuel efficiency standards, environmental research and protection, climate science, etc. These are all things the current GOP is taking real steps backwards on, so mainstream D vs the majority of Rs doesn't even come close. And in general or national elections you don't have much of a choice but to support the mainstream candidate who comes closest to a sane environmental choice.
  - camgunz 7y ago
    Almost all Democrats since Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth (and many before) have supported various levels of action on climate change. "Mainstream" Democrats and "socialist" Democrats agree like 99% on policy. The differences are primarily cultural and trumped up by Republicans and the media.
- 7y ago

e40 7y ago

I had this thought every time I see a certain group in the US demonizing the EPA. We all use the same air, water and soil. Aren't they afraid if their kids take in the toxins that are allowed into said resources because the EPA's funding is cut or they push through laws that prevent the EPA from doing what they should be doing??

mattnewton 7y ago
Maybe they don’t think they will suffer the consequences because they can screen their own water and soil. It could be that they have a scarcity mindset where their potential wealth is being used to test soil and water of other people at the expense of protecting them.

Bluestrike2 7y ago

That's the not-so-funny element. Companies like Exxon were the first to hire independent researchers back in the 70s and helped pioneer climate research, with management being briefed on the as far back as 1977, and had developed its own models by 1982 that were widely circulated within the company.[0][1] That research was allowed to continue for nearly a decade, and Exxon researchers consulted on DOE research and reports throughout the 80s. It wasn't hidden, either within the company or without, until management decided to take a somewhat different approach with its lobbying efforts. They saw the word "uncertainty" with regards to climate modeling as a lifeline, and they took it. It's easy to generalize interested parties that promote climate change denialism as not giving a damn since they'll be long dead before the worst consequences hit. That may very well be a partial explanation, but if you look at how some of the rhetoric has shifted with talk of geoengineering, there's this idea that a future generation will be able to deploy technical fixes. And once you buy into the hope that offers, it's inevitable that you'll downplay the sheer cost and scale of such an intervention. After all, computers are cheaper now than they were in the 80s, so who knows how expensive geoengineering will be in a few decades? There's a hope that an easier, cheaper solution will present itself in the future. So I think a larger part of the answer isn't so much that corporate executives and politicians don't believe in climate change (though there are probably plenty who have bought into their own spin), as it is that they've pinned their hopes on the terribly alluring delusion that maybe it'll be cheaper to reverse the trend tomorrow than make the sort of difficult choices needed to start mitigating it today. Or, more accurately, over three decades ago. 0. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-... 1. https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18092015/exxon-confirmed-global-warming-consensus-in-1982-with-in-house-climate-models https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18092015/exxon-confirmed-...

rossenberg79 7y ago
What if it actually is cheaper though to reverse trends in the future? The companies that weren’t taking full advantage now will be forever playing catch-up in the future, or shut down entirely.
mrhappyunhappy 7y ago

rihegher 7y ago

reading your comment made me think about this video where a green activist ask during a session with lawmakers in Luxembourg « who among you has read the ipcc report ? » https://youtu.be/KSxIbJlkKD0 https://youtu.be/KSxIbJlkKD0

knz 7y ago

Don't underestimate the ability of people to ignore evidence if it challenges their personal beliefs. I know way too many retired engineers who refuse to believe the science because a certain TV network has convinced them that it's a political hoax. That attitude even trickles down to more local issues -https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/02/20/3m-vs-minnesota-water-pollution-pfc-chemical-trial-primer https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/02/20/3m-vs-minnesota-wat... here in MN for example. Many of the people I refer to above are 3M'ers and believe that the State is extorting 3M. A couple of them are very vocally opposed to anyone installing water filters because of this.

pastor_elm 7y ago

What are they supposed to do? Run their company into the ground to be a sacrificial lamb in our capitalist society? Humanity is still a competition. Worrying about nature will get you bulldozed.

mperham 7y ago

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair

ddebernardy 7y ago

They're investing in apocalypse bunkers. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doomsday-preppers/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doo...

anigbrowl 7y ago

About 30% of people seem wired as non-cooperators even when this is disadvantageous; they only ever transact competitively. That's a good trait to have for certain social niches; but to the extent that those social roles shape the environment for everyone else it's a problem.

13415 7y ago

Pointing with the finger on others is not going to help. We're destroying our planet together. Nearly everyone is involved, and most of the problems are hard to solve because they are 1. collective action problems whose right solution is not a Nash equilibrium, and 2. involve long term risks. Humans are not bad at solving the first category, according to some theories social institutions evolve out of a need to solve these kind of problems, but we're very bad at the second category, as every smoker can attest you. Humanity has never displayed any ability to think and plan ahead fifty or hundred years, let alone longer periods.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

amelius 7y ago

We live in a winner-takes-all world, or conversely, an eat-or-be-eaten world. Giving in to the environment means your competitor is now one step ahead of you. This holds for individuals (politicians), companies, and even countries (e.g. US versus China).

defterGoose 7y ago
Yes, now watch me derive all of human history from first Darwinian principles. (smh) Edit: got me with that downvote.

gdubs 7y ago

A lot of people live pretty disconnected from nature. In cities and suburbs it can feel like we’ve conquered nature; so it can be hard for people to grasp how dependent we still are on biodiversity. We’re also poorly wired for prioritizing long term plans over short term rewards. Even when, rationally, we know a crisis is looming. Then there’s plain old cognitive dissonance — our inability to accept facts that conflict with our worldview. And lastly: being wealthy and powerful doesn’t always equate with being intelligent.

mooseburger 7y ago

Don't try to scapegoat, it's a collective action problem, everyone on the planet is responsible for this. Think about how painful it would be for you to totally wean yourself off fossil fuels. It's the same at the nation level.