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Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"
- chii 7y agoThis is why full end to end encryption is required.
- acchow 7y agoHow do you know someone in the group chat isn't a spy for the government?
- wangchungtonite 7y agoHow do you know the government does not already have the root cert anyway
- TaylorAlexander 7y agoI hope some day we have RISCV phones where you can swap processors and all software is auditable.
- holdyourbreath 7y agoDon’t hold your breath.
- acchow 7y agoThis isn't how E2E encryption works.
- StudentStuff 7y agoYou don't know that a group is free of spies, but a group is less likely to have a spy than the current setup whereby pervasive, omnipresent surveillance is facilitated by WeChat, leading to people needlessly imprisoned and tortured for the thoughtcrime of others.
- chj 7y agoIn that case you need to pay those spies, while at this moment you just run a database query.
- _iyig 7y agoYou don’t need to pay neighbors to report one another. They’ll turn each other in over petty grievances, or the expectation of favored treatment by authorities. China’s social credit points seem like a potentially powerful incentive. Examples from East Germany: https://spiegel.de/international/germany/east-german-domestic-surveillance-went-far-beyond-the-stasi-a-1042883.html https://spiegel.de/international/germany/east-german-domesti...
- schuke 7y agoWeChat groups are designed to be private (as opposed to being public, not necessarily to protect privacy). To join one you normally have to know either the admin or a member of the group. A QR code for public access is available but it's forced to expire in seven days. So for a regular sized group of a few dozen people, it's relatively easy to spot a stranger.
- dymk 7y agoHow do you know you can trust your friends?
- sandov 7y agoSee xkcd 538: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- bsder 7y agoThere is a difference between "a random bureaucrat can read all my chats just by typing at the keyboard" and "a random bureaucrat must authorize and pay for someone to pay me a visit". You don't encrypt everything to prevent the state actors from breaking it--if a state actor wants you bad enough they'll just fabricate what they need and arrest you. You encrypt everything to prevent random idiots (including those working for state actors) from getting at your stuff cheaply. If it's expensive enough, there will always be lower hanging fruit to go after. I don't need to out run the hungry tiger; I simply need to out run somebody else being chased by the tiger.
- MR4D 7y agoI think that’s naive. China can just arrest you for using encryption. Same result. (This isn’t limited to China - the US could have similar results with slightly differing laws)
- emptybits 7y agoEnter: steganography. Useful under totalitarian regimes, I would think. Unlike the burden required to hide gigs required for large file transactions, hiding mere hundreds of bytes for textual conversations might be feasible. Maybe. Distribution of participating client software might be the problem.
- steelframe 7y agoWhen they discover that you have stenographic tools on your computer, how will they know when to stop torturing you?
- stale2002 7y agoSo the real solution is to force everyone to use stenographic tools. Basically, the point is to make it so it is impossible to tell the difference between a normal user and a crypto user. So the only way they could target you is if they target 1 billion other people in the world.
- lolpython 7y agoUnfortunately there's already steganography detecting software on the market[0], and it seems they have a branch in China[1]. But that is a little reductionist of me because there are evolving techniques being produced by researchers that are not so easy to detect. For example I recently read about a CNN-based method for hiding data in images that proved much more resilient against detection. [0] https://www.wetstonetech.com/products/stegohunt/ https://www.wetstonetech.com/products/stegohunt/ [1] https://www.wetstonetech.com/corporate/channel-partners/ https://www.wetstonetech.com/corporate/channel-partners/
- adzm 7y ago
- whoevercares 7y agoWell GFW used ML model trained from side channel information to infer the gist. Pretty scary
- dev_dull 7y agoTechnology always loses to policy when the government has a monopoly on force.
- threatofrain 7y agoNo government does. There are power vacuums and blind spots everywhere. That's why you taking a bit of power in your hands works.
- thewhitetulip 7y agoThis has already been happening in India under the current govt Any Anti PM post gets the Whatsapp admin arrested under National Security Act! Of course, there must be some stupid party supporter who probably had to file a case or something. This will be worse as it'll be automatic as China MITM's everything
- _frip 7y agoPretty interesting comment. Let me see a reputable source which backs up 'anti pm message arrest under national security act'. I googled those and found just one arrest in a state which said > Asked why Shinde had been suspended, Sharma said, “He has not been suspended just for the message. In the past, too, complaints were received against him for favouring certain political party person and showing political inclination. The WhatsApp message he posted is one of the reasons why he has been suspended.” Asked what exactly did he mean by showing political inclination, Sharma said, “I won’t be able to give all the details. But the past complaints and WhatsApp message are the reasons he has been suspended.” source: https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-constable-suspended-for-sharing-anti-pm-message-on-whatsapp-4892293/ https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-const...
- nanokilo 7y agoForgive my naivety, but aren’t Whatsapp messages encrypted? If so, how can the authorities see what’s written in them?
- everly 7y agoSomeone in the group chat is a snitch.
- afterburner 7y agoMaybe someone snitched?
- _frip 7y ago
- barkingtoad 7y agoIn the UK you can be arrested for teaching your girlfriend's pug to heil as a joke.
- astonex 7y agoWhile the prosecution was dumb (it was clearly a joke), he did turn out to be a huge right wing racist anyway
- dev_dull 7y agoIs it an American thing to not care if someone is a “______” when talking about their protected rights?
- jrs95 7y agoIt used to be.
- captain_oats 7y agoThe rights enshrined in our constitution are viewed as natural rights so they cannot be qualified, all people are entitled to their protection.
- GuiA 7y agoOh absolutely. For the more egregious example of it, “______” is “felon”. Not many countries fare better, to be fair.
- astonex 7y agoIm far from American however
- ummonk 7y agoHence the question.
- sexydefinesher 7y ago
- dead_mall 7y agoThis makes me think of this Reddit meme I saw in the Gaming section, the gist of it: if you mentioned some specific chinese massacre in a game with chinese players, they would all leave the game.
- _iyig 7y agoThere is a large copy-paste block with English and Chinese spellings of “Tibet, Xinjiang Autonomous Region, Tiananmen Square Massacre 1989” that also frequently gets posted on sites like 4chan and YouTube to ward off Chinese commenters. I imagine it’s not very effective, however, since these sites are blocked on the Chinese Internet, so any Chinese users would by default be posting via an encrypted VPN.
- _iyig 7y agoFor the curious, here is a Reddit post with the copy-paste text and more context: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/b3im9t/whats_up_with_people_talking_about_tiananmen/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/b3im9t/whats_...
- colanderman 7y agoThat's… one of the more interesting things I've read today.
- dang 7y agoThe parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough), but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and denigrating large groups en masse is one.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dev_dull 7y agoThe extremely strong freedom of speech laws we have in the US is definitely something we got right. Reading things like this make me really grateful about those protections.
- HNthrow22 7y agoexcept at the moment we're dealing with highly organized paid misinformation campaigns and widespread propaganda under the guise of free speech. This will not be popular on Hn but in my opinion holding users and platforms responsible for the messages they distribute to millions is the inevitable evolution and future of social media, society has demonstrated the inability to responsibly handle anonymous unchecked mass communication - anti vax is just one example and those consequences (Measles is back) are just the tip of the iceberg.
- jrs95 7y agoAll mainstream media is also guilty of running misinformation campaigns and widespread propaganda all the time as well, so who exactly are we going to hold responsible here? To me it seems like a recipe for giving more power to the people who already have the most.
- dev_dull 7y agoI’m not sure I agree. When they debated how our democracy should function, they were actually quite aware of the power of the mob. How easily swayed and passionate people can become. They built safeguards for it everywhere. But at the end day they agreed that freedom of speech is too important even with all of its dangers.
- DevKoala 7y agoI strongly disagree. There are many ways to combat misinformation that do not involve censorship. There is nothing to applaud about oppression driven government censorship.
- uxcolumbo 7y ago
- real-hacker 7y agoA few years back, some software is banned from Chinese internet because its release number is 6.4
- jeromegv 7y agoSource?
- mensetmanusman 7y agoWe are biased on HN to consider technological solutions to an ideological problem: there are powerful people who benefit from sowing distrust. Ideally, the Chinese leadership wants each citizen afraid of their neighbors. This is easier to do in a society when large family ties are much weaker (due to one child policy).
- saagarjha 7y agoFrom my experience, China and most of Asia has very strong family ties as a core tenet of their culture.
- mensetmanusman 7y agoYes, very strong small family ties.
- fadzlan 7y agoThere is something like this in Malaysia as well, under the previous government. The way that some people deal with this is make everybody admin.
- tus87 7y agoBritish media: you can be arrested for makes jokes on twitter or calling a woman a woman.
- jjcc 7y agoI guess: 1.Most people who can not read Chinese believe "detained" or "arrested" is on the photo of the newspaper as a proof. Is it true? Ask your friend who can read Chinese what the head line says. If the author was honest, she should explicitly stated that "detained" or "arrested" is from other source but not from the image. She is manipulating readers perception while she can claim she didn't lie. 2.No body notice the date of the newspaper is missing. If I say this is quite old news , would anybody be supprised? Is the missing date accidental? Here's my anecdonal experiance: It the photo true? Yes. Is CPP tighten the control of WeChat? Yes, Just as the photo shows. a while ago. There's no warning of arrest though. Are there any WeChat admin arrested that public know? Yes, somebody selling pornagraphy content. Are there any trouble with WeChat groups because of politics? Yes. I have been inside at least 2 groups with many members havning strong anti-government sentiments. The consequence is the groups were shut down because of many anti-CPP content. The admins openned another group , hand picked up all the old members into the new group because the "shut down" was that anybody in the group can only see his/her own words but not others. The admin can still access all the members information. What do we behave in the new group? Still the same but use twiseted expression that anybody knows meaning while avoid automated censorship. No human really read messages to detect sensitive word but robot. Usually replace some words sounds the same but wrong characters. What if you can not help expressing anger against government? Don't do it in group but in your "Moment" and use images with text content instead of text that robot can detect. Even most Chinese believe this can cause trouble from government but one of my friend did this all the time. Nobody from government pay attention to him. I totally against censorship. But I also don't like media selling their own ideaology with disinformation. Tell truth please.
- Iv 7y agoTalking about political opposition in a media controlled by the state is irresponsible. I would not do it France, making it in China is suicidal. Do not take anecdotal tolerance for proof of government benevolence. WeChat is monitored, your discussions are archived. When one of the members of any of your group discussion commits a legal offense, or ends up in a terrorist watchlist, you will all be blacklisted. "Modern" censorship (quotes because it was already like that during the STASI) focuses on public declarations. Officials weight the impact of the speech vs the (social) cost of censoring. Say shit about the government in a place where a thousand people are listening, you will be shut down. Say shit about the government to 5 of your friends, the government simply archives this and notes this and puts you on a "dissident" list, for later purpose. Later you will find out you have a visa refused for "security reasons" or a public funding cut "for budget reasons". One of the discovery of the East-German propaganda machine is that the best way to shut down opponents is to make their life harder but without ever telling them this is a punishment for their opinion.
- potatofarmer45 7y agoIt's basically another way to spread fear to encourage self censorship. If admins believe they are liable for anything non-kosher, then they'd actively censor it themselves to avoid potential wrath. Throw in a few news articles of someone being arrested for a trivial group post, and it becomes an example of 杀一儆百 which translates as "to kill 1 as a warning to 100"
- rsync 7y ago"... and it literally becomes an example of ..." No, you would need to actually kill someone in order for that to literally be an example of "to kill 1 as a warning to 100".
- jakeogh 7y agoPredictable consequence of the GDPR: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863496
- unimpressive 7y agoSorry but, what does the GDPR have to do with this story about China? China doesn't care what laws Europe writes.
- jakeogh 7y agoI didn't mean to imply they are subject to it. It's another example of something new assisting the self-censorship trend (as noted in the story the commentator I linked to gave).
- thaumasiotes 7y ago> YOU are of opinion it would be proper to establish a company of firemen in Nicomedia, [similar] to what has been practised in several other cities. But it is to be remembered that societies of this sort have greatly disturbed the peace of the province in general, and of those cities in particular. Whatever name we give them, and for whatever purposes them may be founded, they will not fail to form themselves into factions, assemblies, however short their meetings may be. It will therefore be safer to provide such machines as are of service in extinguishing fires, enjoining the owners of houses to assist in preventing the mischief from spreading, and, if it should be necessary, to call in the aid of the populace. ( Plin. Ep. 10.34; https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2043.html https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2043.html , or in the original at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0139:book=10:letter=34 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19... ) That's the Roman Emperor Trajan denying the administrator of the province of Bithynia permission to establish a fire department. If you let men get together, for any purpose, they'll start talking about politics. It's better to let things burn.
- paavoova 7y agoWhat happens if you get women together?
- dang 7y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- paavoova 7y agoI have posted and do frequently see "unsubstantive" comments, but somehow the mere connotation of gender is a flag. From a historical perspective, such a question in even its simplest form is entirely valid given the nature of gender roles in societies. Are/were conspiring women's groups more or less feared than men's? I don't know myself, and my comment was sincere in that regard.
- ycombonator 7y agoCensorship coming soon to a neighborhood near you. You don’t have to look too far to point fingers at censorship. Our Social Media overlords just banned “conspiracy theorists”. What if I like watching conspiracy theories for the heck of it because the MSM is nauseating merchant of “truth”.
- im3w1l 7y agoMy rule of thumb is that people who get banned for saying "out there" stuff are controlled opposition and people who get banned for saying common sense and obvious stuff are real opposition.
- antepodius 7y agoWhat's common sense and what's out there depends on the reader.
- im3w1l 7y agoThat's by design. By keeping it vague it becomes more broadly applicable.
- nhylated 7y agoMake everyone an admin of the group!
- ummonk 7y agoIf you run a group and allow criminal activity to continue on that group without moderating said activity, why wouldn’t you be held responsible?
- Teknoman117 7y ago> it is not allowed, as this article lists, to post “politically sensitive information”, “spread rumors,” “bring news about Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan that has not been reported by official news channels,” Well that's just Orwellian...
- tonylinn 7y agoThose words are never in the Chinese report being referenced, and I have to call out this article being just a lie
- yorwba 7y agoMaybe they changed the link, but now it's definitely there: 1、政治敏感话题不发 don't post on politically sensitive topics 2、不信谣不传谣 don't believe rumors, don't spread rumors 3、所谓的内部资料不发 don't post so-called internal information 4、涉黄、涉毒、涉爆等不发 don't post content involving pornography, illegal drugs or explosives etc. 5、有关港澳台新闻在官方网站未发布前不发 don't post news about Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan before it has been reported by official websites 6、军事资料不发 don't post military information 7、有关涉及国家机密文件不发 don't post state secrets 8、来源不明的疑似伪造的黑警辱警的小视频不发 don't post suspected fake videos of unclear origin that smear the police (search 南应 on YouTube for a recent example of what's probably meant by this) 9、其他违反相关法律法规的信息不发 don't post other information that violates related laws or regulations
- Causality1 7y agoMan am I glad I live in a country with strong freedom of speech protections.
- atemerev 7y agoSo, no Winnie the Pooh fan fiction groups? Damn.
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- charliebrownau 7y agoWont be long and this will happen in AU+NZ+UK+CA+USA with Facebook Twitter Skype Youtube