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Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students
- someguydave 7y agoIn electronics, the success of areas like Shenzhen and the relative expense of engineering in the US has decimated non-defense industry. In 2002, there were 385,000 electrical engineers in the US. In 2014, there were only 300,000. (https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-shortage--electrical-engineering-lost-35-000-jobs-last-year.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-shor...) Why should foreign students expect to work in relatively expensive industries that are losing employees in the US?
- leereeves 7y agoAccording to the BLS there were 324,600 electrical and electronics engineers in the US in 2016. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electri... A bit of a decline but "decimated" is too strong a word for a decline from 385,000 to 324,600, and much of that is due to smartphones and tablets (and single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi) that reduced the need for custom electronics. For example: in the 90s I worked for a company that made a custom handheld device. Now that product is an app.
- someguydave 7y agoI used the word "decimated" because electronics are so integral to productivity that there should be an explanation for the missing growth from 385,000. The fact that there's a decline at all is a double whammy.
- jazzyk 7y agoThe rapidly increasing presence of electronics everywhere (cars, "intelligent" fridges, etc), should have caused a dramatic rise in the number of engineers, so I would say "decimated" is somewhat justified.
- ETHisso2017 7y agoQian Xuesen would like to have a word with you.
- steele 7y agofrom the grave?
- ETHisso2017 7y agoHar har... but seriously, look up his story. It's not hard to see other Chinese students today in his (figurative) boat.
- Leary 7y agoI wonder if Chinese tech students who are unable to find jobs in sensitive sector in America will have to return to China, leading to a reverse brain drain. The Chinese nuclear weapons program and missile program were both helped greatly when Qian Xuesen[1], one of the co-founder of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, returned to China during the Red Scare in the 1950s. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
- hemantv 7y agoThis can be particularly bad for the high-tech sector, think Intel, Qualcomm etc.
- rapsey 7y agoI think due to the US inability to fix fundamental issues with regards to upward mobility, education and a fuck you attitude on the world stage. Anything they do to counter China will only hasten the rise of China and their decline.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- godzillabrennus 7y agoThe data shows that the wealthy Chinese are fleeing and the USA is gaining. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/millionaires-flee-their-homelands-as-tensions-rise-taxes-bite https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/millionai...
- frozenport 7y agoReal problem is that the West decided to educate its competitors. Now they can get other keep them and hurt their own tech workers or compete against them. The real solution is to not the problem in the first place, by enforcing ITAR like regulations on education.
- anovikov 7y agoThere's been to many proofs that Chinese 'students' and 'researches' are actually well-organized spy circles, controlled from outside, both stealing every technology related stuff they can, and disseminating propaganda in the U.S. under direct supervision from China. They are not say like Russian or Indian students who try to adapt, blend into the ecosystem, and make it there. They are instruments in their State's hands. It's just a normal self-defense.
- hemantv 7y agoSeriously dude?
- dkural 7y agohttps://www.aspi.org.au/report/picking-flowers-making-honey https://www.aspi.org.au/report/picking-flowers-making-honey
- fungi 7y agoaspi is funded by us arms manufacturers and regularly tweet red scare bollocks (eg https://twitter.com/ASPI_ICPC/status/1123367929985286144 https://twitter.com/ASPI_ICPC/status/1123367929985286144). i'm not saying aspi is completely full of it or that there isn't a problem with communist party influence. but aspi is most def aligned to security establishment and hardly impartial.
- killjoywashere 7y agoSeriously. Here, let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+student+espionage http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+student+espionage or, at least consider the top link https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/education-or-espionage-chinese-student-takes-his-homework-home-china-n893881 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/education-or-espionage-ch... Also, if you think the Chinese IP theft isn't state-sponsored, please understand that thanks to state organs like the CCCP's Organization Department, pretty much everything happening in China is state sponsored.
- thratchnee 7y ago
- killjoywashere 7y agoWho, exactly, doesn't understand that the US university system requires a certain number of grad students to have the research output it produces, and a great way to close that gap would be to improve secondary education in the US? Also, I have a bit of ill will toward US universities that turns down US students in favor of Chinese students. I'm looking at you, UCSD.
- da_chicken 7y ago> Who, exactly, doesn't understand that the US university system requires a certain number of grad students to have the research output it produces, and a great way to close that gap would be to improve secondary education in the US? Betsy DeVos.
- SamReidHughes 7y agoThere aren't many students fit for grad school (in the sciences) that are held back by poor secondary education. Obviously, some specialized programs could accelerate top kids farther, faster, but they're mostly already grad-school capable.
- taurath 7y agoI sort of feel like it can have a big effect if done well or poorly - secondary school is the intro to biology, chemistry, and physics. A very poorly run school can really harm students interest in those subjects.
- jbay808 7y agoThis is quite a tangent... But how are you sure about this? I have known many high performing kids that felt severely under-challenged in secondary school, or were even picked on for showing genuine interest in their material. Some of them made it through and turned out fine in the end, but some of them didn't. Some ended up dropping out early, or severely under-performing their potential and throwing away a shot at becoming "grad school capable". (Whether on purpose, due to self sabotage or boredom, peer pressure, or bad habits). The teachers did their best but had to focus on the even more at-risk students. Not all high-performing students will do well regardless of their environment. Some will crash and burn without support, and that doesn't only mean "accelerating them farther faster". It can be enough to group them together with other kids that are similarly enthusiastic and curious, so that they don't shoot each other down.
- waynecochran 7y agoI knew a lot of Chinese students in grad school (computer science) and saw none of this. This article smells fishy.
- DeonPenny 7y agoIts actually new. In the past year trump can basically unofficially prevent chinese student from getting visas
- roenxi 7y agoHow many advantages does America have left if China gains a decisive edge in its research capabilities? I count military and control of the international monetary system. That isn't a winning hand unless the Chinese shoot themselves in the foot with corruption or a return to their communist roots.
- yoube 7y agoEnglish is a huge advantage. I don't see the rest of the world clamouring to learn Mandarin any time soon. It's a benefit, sure, but not a necessity.
- Causality1 7y agoWow, fuck that site. It literally won't let me read it in landscape orientation.
- Evidlo 7y agoDoesn't work without JS either.
- Causality1 7y agoI just put it in desktop mode and it worked fine. What a ridiculous design choice to make, though.
- ralph84 7y agoIf China didn't have a massive state-sponsored corporate espionage program these students would have a case. But China does, so the students are going to have to deal with the vetting required to make sure they aren't a part of it.
- paxys 7y agoIt is the same situation for Indian students, but due to visa and green card quotas and long processing delays. I'm hoping this leads to a boon for the Indian technology sector, which has already seen a resurgence over the last few years.
- MlkedChocolate 7y agoFrom Wikipedia: According to Robert Hannigan, former Director of the Government Communications Headquarters, Chinese hackers have engaged in economic espionage against British universities and engineering companies, on behalf of the Chinese government. What better instrument than a graduate student? Sure, we want to be open and inclusive to everyone, but don't be stupid. Don't let the country that literally partners up with North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93North_Korea_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93North_Korea_rela...) and have hacked and infiltrated other countries before have open access to cutting edge technology. During university, I've heard from a chinese student (From China), who's dad owned a high tech factory. He told me the plan was to get a job at the most reputable tech firm in that industry, and learn from it, then bring it back to his dad.
- ETHisso2017 7y agoGod forbid, a kid who wants to work in the family business! He must be up to something no good, being from an evil Communist state. Wait, how do family businesses exist under Communism? head explodes
- MlkedChocolate 7y agoA prominent Beijing scholar who recently fled to the United States has warned that China was sending "spies" to American universities, and urged US institutions to tread carefully on academic co-operation. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1437005/expelled-peking-university-professor-warns-us-universities-over-educating https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1437005/expelled-pek...
- ETHisso2017 7y agoI've heard that AI and semicon are going on the export control list, and even a US national communicating knowledge with someone is a "deemed export". Does this mean all Chinese H1-Bs are going to be barred from working at Microsoft, Google, Intel, and Qualcomm?
- colechristensen 7y agoIt means that AI is going to be sequestered to buildings with big unfriendly signs at the door "No Foreign Persons Beyond This Point" and data will have to be managed in ways similar to medical, financial, legal, or payment data. Long ago I worked in defense and had some export controlled hardware (unlocked/no restriction high performance GPS and satellite technology) What it meant was that to work on our stuff you had to be a "US Person" and "export" could be a conversation with the wrong person. In practice it meant the work couldn't be shared with students from a short list of countries. The punishment for infractions could be as little as recording and notification and as severe as significant prison terms. "Export" happens quite a lot and usually consists of innocuous mistakes.
- ETHisso2017 7y agoBut given the broad definition of AI and semiconductor design, however, and inclusion of other technologies like "Logistics" (seriously, the whole category, not a subfield) within emerging technologies list, wouldn't this, in practice, make whole companies no-go-zones for Chinese H1-Bs? I can't see Intel or Applied Materials or even UPS having Chinese H1-Bs around in the future. While there are some here who wouldn't mind having a Chinese Exclusion Act in their industry, I'm hopeful a majority of voices here will see the problem inherent with moves like this.
- simonblack 7y agoThe American Manhattan Project came about because Germany forced a lot of Jewish scientists out of their research jobs in the thirties. Those scientists moved to the States, which was America's gain and Germany's loss when lots of Weapons Research happened during the forties. America seems determined to lose out when Chinese scientists are barred from US jobs, or when Chinese space engineers are refused any interaction with NASA.
- DeonPenny 7y agoOne they were killing jewish scientist. They were running for their lives. Two most of these people are students and there a huge line for students to come into US universities. Unless china has a another plan to invest heavily in western free and democratic schooling they won't lose that edge.