14 ms·

Better participation. A lot more people know how to use GitHub's tools. It'll likely increase the amount of development, participation, pull requests, etc that

by atonse 8y ago

Better participation. A lot more people know how to use GitHub's tools. It'll likely increase the amount of development, participation, pull requests, etc that ASF projects get. Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source?

dijit 8y ago
> Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source? It matters a lot actually; a lot of free-software/open source software are licensed that way because the projects themselves are ideologically predisposed. While that does not hold true for certain (even large) projects like Linux, it certainly holds true for Apache (historically) and GNU. To put it another way; if you found out GNU coreutils were hosted on Window machines using IIS web servers then you would probably consider that the people making the software (or, certainly those hosting it) are ideologically at odds with the project and are hypocritical. So, I mean, you get to choose, if you go the Linux way and say "we are open source for pragmatic reasons" then there's no doublethink. If you say "we believe that all software should be free" while simultaneously forcing your users to contribute using closed source software on a proprietary platform then then you're not practicing your ideology, and worse; you're forcing that non-practice on your developers and users.
- TallGuyShort 8y ago
  I think the ASF, being non-copyleft, is much less ideological than you're thinking. They're big on having rules to foster healthy community and community based decisions, but the license is really just a laissez faire BSD-ish license with some particular edge cases addressed. It's open-source but flexible and friendly to businesses with hybrid models. Something like GitHub that promotes input from people involved with other projects to participate is not a surprising move for them at all.
  - xorcist 8y ago
    > the ASF, being non-copyleft, is much less ideological than you're thinking Do you somehow consider copyleft style licenses "more ideological" than those which are not? That is probably more telling about your own views on licensing than it is on ideologies. FreeBSD is not copyleft, and they work actively on eliminating GPL from their base. Debian mostly under the free software umbrella, but welcomes BSD code in their base. Stallman is about as idelogical as you can get but has been known to argue for the MIT license in some cases. Just to mention a few examples.
    - TallGuyShort 8y ago
      Sure there are counterexamples, but I certainly don't hesitate to say copyleft does tend to be more ideological. In every instance I can think of, every serious discussion I've had with a company about project licensing that ended with anything other than the GPL, the concerns are virality, even when they like open-source (which is a practical concern overriding an ideological one), and a lack of any real interest in how it's licensed, just wanting it put out there with very few strings attached.
      - mikekchar 8y ago
        There is a very practical reason for choosing a copyleft license as an author. If you choose a non-copyleft free software license, then downstream users actually have more options than you do. They can take your code, add small modifications and then release the result under a non-free license. Even if you implement those features as well, you aren't playing on a level playing field. You have to support all of the software and they only have to support their small additions. The end result is that they can offer a product with a value-add at a lower cost than you can. You are essentially competing with yourself. Of course you can decide not to release your code under a free software license, but that rather defeats the purpose of running a free software project ;-) Looking at it another way, more permissive licences grant more options to downstream users than copyleft licenses. It doesn't make sense to argue that you are offering only copyleft licenses to benefit those downstream users individually (and I know of nobody who makes that claim). Instead, the argument is that it is better for the group that everybody has equal restrictions and can't use proprietary code to gain an advantage over everyone else. This is actually one of the reasons why if anyone asks me to assign copyright for my side projects over for work, I'm happy to do so: on the provision that all of my work is licensed under the GPL. It barely matters to me at that point who owns the copyright (though to protect yourself further you should ensure that no one person has copyright over the entire work). IMHO, although the choice to write free software at all is often ideological, the choice of using a copyleft license or not is usually pragmatic -- at least among those who understand why copyleft licenses are written the way they are.
  - gstein67 8y ago
    Correct. We are pragmatic-focused. The communities asked for better integration with GitHub, so we provided it. (nothing to do with non/copyleft licensing regimes) Mind you, we maintain private mirrors and have restrictions on some of the GitHub access/workflows (eg. ICLA on file, and 2FA required). We still need to track provenance, and must be able to operate independently, if it comes to that. -- Greg Stein
  - kazinator 8y ago
    Let me tell you, as a little data point, I use BSD licenses and I'm ideological enough not to want to host anything on a walled-garden now run by Microsoft.
- RhodesianHunter 8y ago
  If the open source community is better served, and more free software is produced as a result of this move, then I see no hypocrisy. As in code, most things in life are a compromise.
  - gstein67 8y ago
    It is definitely better-served. It was the communities asking for GitHub access/integration. So we provided it. -- Greg Stein
- Spivak 8y ago
  I think the point is that for hosted services the fact that Github chooses to use non-F/OSS software only really hurts Github's freedom since they're the ones limited by restrictive software licensing. The fact that Github itself is not F/OSS matters even less as Github is the only user of Github's source code [1]; they're the copyright holder and unencumbered by any licensing restrictions. [1] For GH's on-prem enterprise product this does not apply and has a much stronger case to be F/OSS since now GH is using copyright to restrict the freedom of others.
- mbesto 8y ago
  > a lot of free-software/open source software are licensed that way because the projects themselves are ideologically predisposed. Does GNU audit every contributor to its libraries to ensure they only personally use open source hardware/software? If not, then I'd have a big issue the ideology stance of these organizations. > So, I mean, you get to choose, if you go the Linux way and say "we are open source for pragmatic reasons" then there's no doublethink. If you say "we believe that all software should be free" while simultaneously forcing your users to contribute using closed source software on a proprietary platform then then you're not practicing your ideology, and worse; you're forcing that non-practice on your developers and users. With that same rationale, it's also doublethink if every system that an ideologically-aligned FOSS isn't using FOSS based systems. And realistically, this is not how the market works and makes it extremely limiting to find contributors to maintain systems in longevity. Kind of reminds me of the discussion around people going personally carbon-neutral. Are you going to realistically audit every interaction you have every day to ensure the level of carbon you are consuming? No, you look at the largest/most material areas that you can control and use alternatives there.
- kemitche 8y ago
  > To put it another way; if you found out GNU coreutils were hosted on Window machines using IIS web servers then you would probably consider that the people making the software (or, certainly those hosting it) are ideologically at odds with the project and are hypocritical. From a pragmatic standpoint, if (theoretically) running on Windows/IIS allowed the GNU coreutils project to save enough money to _actually further their goals_, I'd say they'd be foolish not to host that way. When taking an ideological stance, there are practical considerations to consider. There will always be more and less effective ways to get one's point across. I'm reminded, a bit, of this comic: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha. Sometimes, you have to participate in the thing you're rallying against, because it's the most effective way to gain traction for your cause.
chii 8y ago
while that's true, a big project like apache could push gitlab instead, as that's _more_ free and open-source.
- craigsmansion 8y ago
  They could even consider HN darling and 100% Free Software Forge SourceHut, but it seems major FOSS brands are looking for maximising network effects (and associated lock-in) these days
  - Boulth 8y ago
    As much as I like SourceHut using it now by org as big as ASF would mean a lot of troubles. I guess Apache, like Mozilla recently, was looking for product not semi working proof of concept.
robbyt 8y ago
And a likely increase of people posting "+1" comments on bugs...
im3w1l 8y ago
They give up their autonomy in moderation - Github will now have the power to say "you are not allowed to contribute to Apache projects". This will lead to a) Github will have leverage over the project. b) They make themselves vulnerable to the outrage du jour. If an outrage mob forms against someone in the Apache Project, Github may kick them off their platform - they are known to have done so in the past. Apache will then have to decide what to do. The path of least resistance will be to just let them go. People who anticipate such a course of events will have to live in constant fear of all their effort coming to waste and their community being pulled from them by an outsider. And people who anticipate such fear may never join in the first place.
- wDcBKgt66V8WDs 8y ago
  To all you who think this idea is unfounded or dramatic, remember that this is the entire point of FOSS. Whether this idea holds water is irrelevant, it's aligned to FOSS and it's strange that they don't appear to care or have valued other things over it.
  - RhodesianHunter 8y ago
    It's likely that they care, but consider the provable improvement in contributions to open source and thus a demonstrable benefit to the community to be worth more than a theoretical possible eventuality that most would consider unlikely at best.
    - cndx 8y ago
      All projects that I have closely observed that went to GitHub for FOMO have NOT gotten more contributions afterwards. Among the real reasons are: 1) Every OSS project has its bureaucrats who contribute a modest amount of code but want to have an immodest amount of power. For these bureaucrats GitHub is like heaven: They appear productive, have power to silence discussions etc. 2) They work for someone or know someone who is associated with GitHub or in the Microsoft embracing strike force. 3) Legitimate reason: They want to show their employers a metric how much they contribute. I'm pretty cynical about the current state of OSS. Major idealistic contributions are a thing of the past. It is all about attaching oneself to a project, get hired somewhere and then stop contributions.
jlokier 8y ago
> Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source? That's for Apache to decide, but consider: Git itself was written, by Linus Torvalds, because Linux (the kernel) was using non-open source version control at the time called BitKeeper, and the non-open source nature of it was causing increasing problems in the Linux developer community, both ideological and eventually practical problems too, caused by the licensing preventing some devs from building tools. When Git was written and the Linux kernel devs jumped to it en masse, it was like a breath of fresh air. BitKeeper has credit for many of the ideas found in Git before Git. (Aside: credit also should go to Mercurial for ideas). One of the things that made Git better than BitKeeper was people were free to build more tools on it, which is entirely due to the open vs. closed source licensing, as well as a general attitude of welcome vs. unwelcome towards those tools. GitHub is different because it already builds on Git, and works with tools that anyone can build on top of Git. But some things which are really essential to thriving developer community are locked away in GitHub, so it's still limiting what people can build with it. (For example, can you innovate on how Issues are handled? Somewhat, but not in every way that is useful.) In some ways GitHub is like any other walled garden. You can't fork it yourself.
- xorcist 8y ago
  Just for the historial record: Bitkeeper is much older than both git and Mercurial, hence Bitkeeper can not be said to have taken ideas from Mercurial. Both was sprung in large parts from Linus' description of what requirements he had in order to consider using a version control system for Linux.
  - robaato 8y ago
    I think the comment meant that git took ideas from Mercurial rather than BK taking ideas from Mercurial.
    - j16sdiz 8y ago
      Git start before mercurial.
gstein67 8y ago
Not to us here at Apache. We wanted the GitHub tools to be available to our projects. Why try and recreate all that on our own? Waste of resources. The ASF is for creating software for the public good; having a great version control tool website is not in that mission. We chose to leverage GitHub instead. And yes, lots of our communities have been asking for better GitHub support (read: access to its tools). So we made it happen for them. -- Greg Stein

by atonse 8y ago

dijit 8y ago

> Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source? It matters a lot actually; a lot of free-software/open source software are licensed that way because the projects themselves are ideologically predisposed. While that does not hold true for certain (even large) projects like Linux, it certainly holds true for Apache (historically) and GNU. To put it another way; if you found out GNU coreutils were hosted on Window machines using IIS web servers then you would probably consider that the people making the software (or, certainly those hosting it) are ideologically at odds with the project and are hypocritical. So, I mean, you get to choose, if you go the Linux way and say "we are open source for pragmatic reasons" then there's no doublethink. If you say "we believe that all software should be free" while simultaneously forcing your users to contribute using closed source software on a proprietary platform then then you're not practicing your ideology, and worse; you're forcing that non-practice on your developers and users.

TallGuyShort 8y ago
I think the ASF, being non-copyleft, is much less ideological than you're thinking. They're big on having rules to foster healthy community and community based decisions, but the license is really just a laissez faire BSD-ish license with some particular edge cases addressed. It's open-source but flexible and friendly to businesses with hybrid models. Something like GitHub that promotes input from people involved with other projects to participate is not a surprising move for them at all.
- xorcist 8y ago
  > the ASF, being non-copyleft, is much less ideological than you're thinking Do you somehow consider copyleft style licenses "more ideological" than those which are not? That is probably more telling about your own views on licensing than it is on ideologies. FreeBSD is not copyleft, and they work actively on eliminating GPL from their base. Debian mostly under the free software umbrella, but welcomes BSD code in their base. Stallman is about as idelogical as you can get but has been known to argue for the MIT license in some cases. Just to mention a few examples.
  - TallGuyShort 8y ago
    Sure there are counterexamples, but I certainly don't hesitate to say copyleft does tend to be more ideological. In every instance I can think of, every serious discussion I've had with a company about project licensing that ended with anything other than the GPL, the concerns are virality, even when they like open-source (which is a practical concern overriding an ideological one), and a lack of any real interest in how it's licensed, just wanting it put out there with very few strings attached.
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      There is a very practical reason for choosing a copyleft license as an author. If you choose a non-copyleft free software license, then downstream users actually have more options than you do. They can take your code, add small modifications and then release the result under a non-free license. Even if you implement those features as well, you aren't playing on a level playing field. You have to support all of the software and they only have to support their small additions. The end result is that they can offer a product with a value-add at a lower cost than you can. You are essentially competing with yourself. Of course you can decide not to release your code under a free software license, but that rather defeats the purpose of running a free software project ;-) Looking at it another way, more permissive licences grant more options to downstream users than copyleft licenses. It doesn't make sense to argue that you are offering only copyleft licenses to benefit those downstream users individually (and I know of nobody who makes that claim). Instead, the argument is that it is better for the group that everybody has equal restrictions and can't use proprietary code to gain an advantage over everyone else. This is actually one of the reasons why if anyone asks me to assign copyright for my side projects over for work, I'm happy to do so: on the provision that all of my work is licensed under the GPL. It barely matters to me at that point who owns the copyright (though to protect yourself further you should ensure that no one person has copyright over the entire work). IMHO, although the choice to write free software at all is often ideological, the choice of using a copyleft license or not is usually pragmatic -- at least among those who understand why copyleft licenses are written the way they are.
- gstein67 8y ago
  Correct. We are pragmatic-focused. The communities asked for better integration with GitHub, so we provided it. (nothing to do with non/copyleft licensing regimes) Mind you, we maintain private mirrors and have restrictions on some of the GitHub access/workflows (eg. ICLA on file, and 2FA required). We still need to track provenance, and must be able to operate independently, if it comes to that. -- Greg Stein
- kazinator 8y ago
  Let me tell you, as a little data point, I use BSD licenses and I'm ideological enough not to want to host anything on a walled-garden now run by Microsoft.
RhodesianHunter 8y ago
If the open source community is better served, and more free software is produced as a result of this move, then I see no hypocrisy. As in code, most things in life are a compromise.
- gstein67 8y ago
  It is definitely better-served. It was the communities asking for GitHub access/integration. So we provided it. -- Greg Stein
Spivak 8y ago
I think the point is that for hosted services the fact that Github chooses to use non-F/OSS software only really hurts Github's freedom since they're the ones limited by restrictive software licensing. The fact that Github itself is not F/OSS matters even less as Github is the only user of Github's source code [1]; they're the copyright holder and unencumbered by any licensing restrictions. [1] For GH's on-prem enterprise product this does not apply and has a much stronger case to be F/OSS since now GH is using copyright to restrict the freedom of others.
mbesto 8y ago
> a lot of free-software/open source software are licensed that way because the projects themselves are ideologically predisposed. Does GNU audit every contributor to its libraries to ensure they only personally use open source hardware/software? If not, then I'd have a big issue the ideology stance of these organizations. > So, I mean, you get to choose, if you go the Linux way and say "we are open source for pragmatic reasons" then there's no doublethink. If you say "we believe that all software should be free" while simultaneously forcing your users to contribute using closed source software on a proprietary platform then then you're not practicing your ideology, and worse; you're forcing that non-practice on your developers and users. With that same rationale, it's also doublethink if every system that an ideologically-aligned FOSS isn't using FOSS based systems. And realistically, this is not how the market works and makes it extremely limiting to find contributors to maintain systems in longevity. Kind of reminds me of the discussion around people going personally carbon-neutral. Are you going to realistically audit every interaction you have every day to ensure the level of carbon you are consuming? No, you look at the largest/most material areas that you can control and use alternatives there.
kemitche 8y ago
> To put it another way; if you found out GNU coreutils were hosted on Window machines using IIS web servers then you would probably consider that the people making the software (or, certainly those hosting it) are ideologically at odds with the project and are hypocritical. From a pragmatic standpoint, if (theoretically) running on Windows/IIS allowed the GNU coreutils project to save enough money to _actually further their goals_, I'd say they'd be foolish not to host that way. When taking an ideological stance, there are practical considerations to consider. There will always be more and less effective ways to get one's point across. I'm reminded, a bit, of this comic: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha. Sometimes, you have to participate in the thing you're rallying against, because it's the most effective way to gain traction for your cause.

chii 8y ago

while that's true, a big project like apache could push gitlab instead, as that's _more_ free and open-source.

craigsmansion 8y ago
They could even consider HN darling and 100% Free Software Forge SourceHut, but it seems major FOSS brands are looking for maximising network effects (and associated lock-in) these days
- Boulth 8y ago
  As much as I like SourceHut using it now by org as big as ASF would mean a lot of troubles. I guess Apache, like Mozilla recently, was looking for product not semi working proof of concept.

robbyt 8y ago

And a likely increase of people posting "+1" comments on bugs...

im3w1l 8y ago

They give up their autonomy in moderation - Github will now have the power to say "you are not allowed to contribute to Apache projects". This will lead to a) Github will have leverage over the project. b) They make themselves vulnerable to the outrage du jour. If an outrage mob forms against someone in the Apache Project, Github may kick them off their platform - they are known to have done so in the past. Apache will then have to decide what to do. The path of least resistance will be to just let them go. People who anticipate such a course of events will have to live in constant fear of all their effort coming to waste and their community being pulled from them by an outsider. And people who anticipate such fear may never join in the first place.

wDcBKgt66V8WDs 8y ago
To all you who think this idea is unfounded or dramatic, remember that this is the entire point of FOSS. Whether this idea holds water is irrelevant, it's aligned to FOSS and it's strange that they don't appear to care or have valued other things over it.
- RhodesianHunter 8y ago
  It's likely that they care, but consider the provable improvement in contributions to open source and thus a demonstrable benefit to the community to be worth more than a theoretical possible eventuality that most would consider unlikely at best.
  - cndx 8y ago
    All projects that I have closely observed that went to GitHub for FOMO have NOT gotten more contributions afterwards. Among the real reasons are: 1) Every OSS project has its bureaucrats who contribute a modest amount of code but want to have an immodest amount of power. For these bureaucrats GitHub is like heaven: They appear productive, have power to silence discussions etc. 2) They work for someone or know someone who is associated with GitHub or in the Microsoft embracing strike force. 3) Legitimate reason: They want to show their employers a metric how much they contribute. I'm pretty cynical about the current state of OSS. Major idealistic contributions are a thing of the past. It is all about attaching oneself to a project, get hired somewhere and then stop contributions.

jlokier 8y ago

> Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source? That's for Apache to decide, but consider: Git itself was written, by Linus Torvalds, because Linux (the kernel) was using non-open source version control at the time called BitKeeper, and the non-open source nature of it was causing increasing problems in the Linux developer community, both ideological and eventually practical problems too, caused by the licensing preventing some devs from building tools. When Git was written and the Linux kernel devs jumped to it en masse, it was like a breath of fresh air. BitKeeper has credit for many of the ideas found in Git before Git. (Aside: credit also should go to Mercurial for ideas). One of the things that made Git better than BitKeeper was people were free to build more tools on it, which is entirely due to the open vs. closed source licensing, as well as a general attitude of welcome vs. unwelcome towards those tools. GitHub is different because it already builds on Git, and works with tools that anyone can build on top of Git. But some things which are really essential to thriving developer community are locked away in GitHub, so it's still limiting what people can build with it. (For example, can you innovate on how Issues are handled? Somewhat, but not in every way that is useful.) In some ways GitHub is like any other walled garden. You can't fork it yourself.

xorcist 8y ago
Just for the historial record: Bitkeeper is much older than both git and Mercurial, hence Bitkeeper can not be said to have taken ideas from Mercurial. Both was sprung in large parts from Linus' description of what requirements he had in order to consider using a version control system for Linux.
- robaato 8y ago
  I think the comment meant that git took ideas from Mercurial rather than BK taking ideas from Mercurial.
  - j16sdiz 8y ago
    Git start before mercurial.

gstein67 8y ago

Not to us here at Apache. We wanted the GitHub tools to be available to our projects. Why try and recreate all that on our own? Waste of resources. The ASF is for creating software for the public good; having a great version control tool website is not in that mission. We chose to leverage GitHub instead. And yes, lots of our communities have been asking for better GitHub support (read: access to its tools). So we made it happen for them. -- Greg Stein