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I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this post had its thesis been "Don't use Facebook, Twiter, Youtube, etc.", but instead I got "Use Facebook, Twitter, You

I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this post had its thesis been "Don't use Facebook, Twiter, Youtube, etc.", but instead I got "Use Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, but complain to your govt. because they make too much money". You don't like how they make money(X)? Don't use it. No one is forcing you. > but if I don't use them I'm at a disadvantage Then they are useful for you, use them. I don't use fb, twitter, reddit, etc. I only use Google search, Youtube and Hacker news, and do so voluntarily. I'm happy with the value I get, I take measures to diminish the amount of data they get (use fake names, use VPN, etc.) Living in a system based on freedom means that if someone succeeds through their own effort, they are entitled to that success. You can't just come and take it away because you don't like that person, or how much money they make. (X) If your copyrighted content is being used without your permission, there are legal mechanisms to stop it. But I doubt reddit users posting in a humor sub care about their joke being used in a Youtube video.

georgeecollins 7y ago
The problem is that people want to converge on one system, so opting out often isn't viable. I don't use Facebook, for example. But when my school makes an announcement, or creates some kind of bulletin board or sign up, they often use Facebook. Most people are on it. If I want to advertise a mobile app it is really hard without using Facebook or Instagram. You say "you can't just come and take it away because you don't like that person". This is not about animosity toward any person or company (or it shouldn't be). We have stopped people or issued government control when people are close to having monopolies over oil, monopolies over power, telecommunications, etc.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > But when my school makes an announcement, or creates some kind of bulletin board or sign up, they often use Facebook. You should make a huge stink about this. At a minimum, schools and other public services should always provide a means to interact with them that doesn't involve such things.
AlexandrB 7y ago
> You don't like how they make money(X)? Don't use it. No one is forcing you. This narrative would be compelling if there was a way to stop Facebook from collecting data on me and using it anyways. There is not. Facebook trackers, pixels, and plugins exist on a huge number of popular sites and apps. The legislative gap is that Facebook is allowed to collect data from me even if I explicitly don’t want them to through dark patterns and their myriad partnerships. Not to mention that they may, at any moment, acquire whatever alternative to Facebook’s products I choose to use and drag me in again (see WhatsApp). Edit: by the way, I’ve been using computers for ~25 years and would describe myself as “extremely online”. If I feel helpless in the face of Facebook’s and Google’s tracking technology I have no idea how the average user must feel.
- bo1024 7y ago
  Pragmatically you have a good point, but technically it's wrong. There are technical solutions to almost all of these issues, and if not, or you can avoid using these sites and apps. I'm not arguing for one course of action or another, just saying, technical solutions exist. For example, an alternative to government regulation could be government funding of libre software and tools that block ads, trackers, third-party cookies, etc.
  - AlexandrB 7y ago
    > ...tools that block ads, trackers, third-party cookies, etc. This is an arms race that I’ve watched privacy advocates slowly lose for the last 15 years. Between dom randomization, browser fingerprinting, and the extremely popular reCaptcha Google’s tracking feels especially inescapable by technological means. On phones the situation is often even worse[1] because of a more opaque and restricted OS environment. [1] https://www.ibtimes.com/these-apps-send-data-facebook-without-you-knowing-it-2747688 https://www.ibtimes.com/these-apps-send-data-facebook-withou...
    - bo1024 7y ago
      I agree, but I face and overcome these issues every day via browser plugins, not installing sketchy apps, and not going to sites locked behind reCaptcha. Again, my point isn't that it's easy, my point is that it's possible, therefore, we have hope of someday making it easy. As a society we haven't even tried yet, only some fringe people donating their time, so perhaps we should support them instead of or in addition to clamoring for regulation.
lazyjones 7y ago
> You don't like how they make money(X)? Don't use it. No one is forcing you. You're excused for this ignorant opinion if you are naive enough to actually believe this is going to work. I do have some reading material for you though https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/31/facebook-tracks-all-visitors-breaching-eu-law-report https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/31/facebook-... https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2013/05/10/15-ways-google-monitors-you https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2013/05/10/15-ways-g... You will realise that "don't use it" quickly becomes "use elaborate methods to block it wherever possible" and even if you do that, your data is still being misused through third parties who sell it. FB, Google etc. are not simply opt-in websites with obscene privacy policies. They are data dealers and advertising businesses whose reach extends far beyond their own web properties to a large part of the Internet.
musicale 7y ago
It's next to impossible to opt out of various entities (data brokers, internet companies, merchants, etc.) vacuuming up as much information about you as they possibly can in order to monetize it. If you're unfortunate enough to have used Facebook, the situation gets worse since Facebook's anti-privacy settings are a continuing nightmare and they routinely deceive their users and misuse personal information (for example collecting phone numbers for 2FA and then using them as keys to connect you with advertisers.) Quitting Facebook does nothing to remove their tracking assets from the web, or to regulate their partnerships with data brokers and advertisers, or to remove the contact lists that they've ingested from people you may have interacted with at some point.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Then they are useful for you, use them. Something can be extremely useful but still too expensive to justify. Facebook, etc. count as "too expensive" in my book.

georgeecollins 7y ago

The problem is that people want to converge on one system, so opting out often isn't viable. I don't use Facebook, for example. But when my school makes an announcement, or creates some kind of bulletin board or sign up, they often use Facebook. Most people are on it. If I want to advertise a mobile app it is really hard without using Facebook or Instagram. You say "you can't just come and take it away because you don't like that person". This is not about animosity toward any person or company (or it shouldn't be). We have stopped people or issued government control when people are close to having monopolies over oil, monopolies over power, telecommunications, etc.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
JohnFen 7y ago
> But when my school makes an announcement, or creates some kind of bulletin board or sign up, they often use Facebook. You should make a huge stink about this. At a minimum, schools and other public services should always provide a means to interact with them that doesn't involve such things.

AlexandrB 7y ago

> You don't like how they make money(X)? Don't use it. No one is forcing you. This narrative would be compelling if there was a way to stop Facebook from collecting data on me and using it anyways. There is not. Facebook trackers, pixels, and plugins exist on a huge number of popular sites and apps. The legislative gap is that Facebook is allowed to collect data from me even if I explicitly don’t want them to through dark patterns and their myriad partnerships. Not to mention that they may, at any moment, acquire whatever alternative to Facebook’s products I choose to use and drag me in again (see WhatsApp). Edit: by the way, I’ve been using computers for ~25 years and would describe myself as “extremely online”. If I feel helpless in the face of Facebook’s and Google’s tracking technology I have no idea how the average user must feel.

bo1024 7y ago
Pragmatically you have a good point, but technically it's wrong. There are technical solutions to almost all of these issues, and if not, or you can avoid using these sites and apps. I'm not arguing for one course of action or another, just saying, technical solutions exist. For example, an alternative to government regulation could be government funding of libre software and tools that block ads, trackers, third-party cookies, etc.
- AlexandrB 7y ago
  > ...tools that block ads, trackers, third-party cookies, etc. This is an arms race that I’ve watched privacy advocates slowly lose for the last 15 years. Between dom randomization, browser fingerprinting, and the extremely popular reCaptcha Google’s tracking feels especially inescapable by technological means. On phones the situation is often even worse[1] because of a more opaque and restricted OS environment. [1] https://www.ibtimes.com/these-apps-send-data-facebook-without-you-knowing-it-2747688 https://www.ibtimes.com/these-apps-send-data-facebook-withou...
  - bo1024 7y ago
    I agree, but I face and overcome these issues every day via browser plugins, not installing sketchy apps, and not going to sites locked behind reCaptcha. Again, my point isn't that it's easy, my point is that it's possible, therefore, we have hope of someday making it easy. As a society we haven't even tried yet, only some fringe people donating their time, so perhaps we should support them instead of or in addition to clamoring for regulation.

lazyjones 7y ago

> You don't like how they make money(X)? Don't use it. No one is forcing you. You're excused for this ignorant opinion if you are naive enough to actually believe this is going to work. I do have some reading material for you though https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/31/facebook-tracks-all-visitors-breaching-eu-law-report https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/31/facebook-... https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2013/05/10/15-ways-google-monitors-you https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2013/05/10/15-ways-g... You will realise that "don't use it" quickly becomes "use elaborate methods to block it wherever possible" and even if you do that, your data is still being misused through third parties who sell it. FB, Google etc. are not simply opt-in websites with obscene privacy policies. They are data dealers and advertising businesses whose reach extends far beyond their own web properties to a large part of the Internet.

musicale 7y ago

It's next to impossible to opt out of various entities (data brokers, internet companies, merchants, etc.) vacuuming up as much information about you as they possibly can in order to monetize it. If you're unfortunate enough to have used Facebook, the situation gets worse since Facebook's anti-privacy settings are a continuing nightmare and they routinely deceive their users and misuse personal information (for example collecting phone numbers for 2FA and then using them as keys to connect you with advertisers.) Quitting Facebook does nothing to remove their tracking assets from the web, or to regulate their partnerships with data brokers and advertisers, or to remove the contact lists that they've ingested from people you may have interacted with at some point.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Then they are useful for you, use them. Something can be extremely useful but still too expensive to justify. Facebook, etc. count as "too expensive" in my book.