7 ms·
Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable
- api 7y agoAirlines are giving people what they want: cheaper tickets. The only way to do that at this point is pack more people on a plane.
- AznHisoka 7y agoGood, in the meantime I will be staying home and enjoying my time around my city/state more. Or instead of having multiple flights for vacations, I'll have a longer vacation in just 1 place.
- rfreytag 7y agoI have seen people panic due to in-flight turbulence. It would not be fun to see seat mates experience an attack of claustrophobia. Add in a tiny crisis or delays and the close space could cause unexpected mob behaviors. Also, how would you pick up something if you dropped it; or eat? The free-air to passenger ratio would diminish making body odors could get much more intense. Unexpected delays anyone?
- NikolaeVarius 7y agoOld as hell news https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat
- CompelTechnic 7y agoFor short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats." Airline margins will remain razor thin and the savings will be passed to the subset of customers who choose to be more cramped. There WILL continue to be "premium economy" or similar for those who choose it, that is undoubtable. If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these standing seats do not gain adoption, I would not be surprised. History has shown that customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort, but complaining all the while.
- PaulHoule 7y agoI don't believe that "customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort". Really customers have about as much choice in the comfort of a flight as they do in the cost of health care services. For years it has been "pay 4 times as much as economy or suffer", in the last ten years they've introduced "basic economy" which at least is realistic. I might rather fly in a widebody on a domestic flight but I don't get the choice. One reason you hate to fly is that you hate to fly in a 737 (or A320) and you never get to fly in anything else so you just don't know it could be better (at a lower cost per seat mile!) in an A220 or E195.
- mlrtime 7y agoPeople vote with their dollars, many legs have multiple options and multiple seat options. Almost everyone goes with the cheapest option. I've flow from NYC to Chicago $90 round trip. It's incredible how inexpensive flying as become.
- brutus1213 7y agoThis is a naive comment. The airline industry is hardly competitive. You do realize the issue is the limits on gates. Please visit Canada and our shitty airline and telecom monopoly/oligopoly to understand how airlines can lower service, make money and pass almost nothing back to customers.
- PaulHoule 7y agoWhat I can say is that if you to any other country, developed or not, the flying experience seems to be better than the US. For instance: * not getting groped by the T.S.A. * not having to book a flight a month in advance to get a good price * paying less * being treated like a human being
- brianwawok 7y agoTSA precheck solves the first one
- flyinglizard 7y agoIf anything, the advent of low cost airlines shows we haven't yet hit the cost/comfort sweetspot and that air travel is still too expensive and comfortable (at least at the <4 hours category).
- draugadrotten 7y agoRubbish. This type of "news" is cheap brand name advertising by low cost airlines. The 5-pound toilet from European Ryanair was a similar campaign. Though news coverage may appear negative, it is aligned with the impression of the brand as "low cost" and therefore strengthens the brand.
- corodra 7y agoThat’s interesting. I never thought about that. Any idea on the effectiveness of doing this? It just seems dicey to me with quite a lot of risk with minimal benefit. I’d rather pet a rabid raccoon than be the PR manager that pulls this stunt. But I do see your point and if done well... yea, just say you found better ways of being lower cost and everyone forgets this ever happened.
- namdnay 7y agoRyanair also did the standing seat stunt a few years ago :)
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y agoThis concept has been doing the rounds for a long time. I can't believe that any airline would be seriously considering it. Ryanair will occasionally drop a hint that they're looking into it when they're desperate for some free publicity, but that's about it.
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoGee golly! You mean to tell me capitalists are trying to extract more money by increasing capacity (and thus increasing misery)? Please say it isn't so! /news at 11
- niij 7y agoOr providing a valuable service of allowing more people to fly for less money at the expense of comfort. I value getting from A to B quickly, I don't mind some discomfort for a few hours if it means it's significantly cheaper.
- noonespecial 7y agoGood news. You are also a capitalist. Don't buy the ticket.
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoNo, I'm not a capitalist. Just because I was born in this system doesn't make me a willing participant. Thanks for playing though.
- noonespecial 7y agoParticipant nonetheless. Again, don't buy the ticket. Whats the alternative here? A nice fat regulation that all airline seats require 4 feet of legroom? Then we can all fly in absolute comfort! What? The cheapest ticket is $4500? &%^$% Capitalist pigs!
- yaakushi 7y agoNot sure why you're being downvoted. In Brazil, we used to be able to dispatch one luggage volume without cost until the law changed and the airlines were allowed to charge extra fees for the right to check in luggage. The decision was supposed to give us cheaper tickets and what not, but, guess what, ticket prices never dropped even for the cheapest options where you have no rights to any luggage besides a small carry-on baggage, but instead, those prices only increased in the last few years! [1] Airlines are a prime example of why the so called free-market can be a terrible thing for the consumer. Edit: Oh, not to mention just how abusive the check-in fees for luggage are and how they wildly increase year after year. [1] https://todosabordo.blogosfera.uol.com.br/2018/06/01/1-ano-da-cobranca-de-bagagem-preco-passagem/ https://todosabordo.blogosfera.uol.com.br/2018/06/01/1-ano-d... (Title roughly translates to "Ticket prices increases by 6% after luggage check-in fees instead of falling like promised...")
- tyingq 7y agoThe bicycle like standing seat does look awful. Reclining, though, is a silly feature on coach airline seats. At best, you temporarily get more room at the expense of the person behind you. Until the person in front of you reclines. Reclining seats when the seat pitch is so tight is just dumb. Oh, and if you get the paywall: http://archive.is/vqTNf http://archive.is/vqTNf
- gomox 7y agoIf you ever do a long haul flight in economy (which I assume you haven't) you will realize the obvious purpose of reclining coach seats: to allow people a fighting chance of remaining asleep instead of being constantly awakened by their falling heads.
- moftz 7y agoMy head just barely remains upright whenever I don't use the reclining function. I always feel bad invading the space of the person behind me, especially when it's a tall person who is already at the limit for room. Although I'll lean back all day long when it's a child behind me.
- gvurrdon 7y agoBeing such a tall person, your concern is appreciated. In economy class my knees touch the back of the seat in front even before it reclines.
- Someone1234 7y agoDitto. If the person reclines I'm literally pinned between their seat-back and my seat-front. I take painkillers for flying because I cannot wave my magic wand and spend 6x as much for higher class.
- moftz 7y agoI'm tall as well so it's more of just a courtesy that if I don't recline, the person behind me will pay it forward and not recline unless needed. On a red eye, it's always appropriate to recline though. Honestly, I just want to be knocked unconscious, stacked up and strapped down like firewood with others, and then woken up upon arrival. Flights would get so cheap and there wouldn't be any need for any amenities. I think I just hate the fake comfort that airlines try to give us. I'm never really going to enjoy sitting in a little seat inside a metal tube so just cut it with the forced nostalgia of the golden age of air travel and just get me to where I need to be a quickly and cheaply as possible. I'm flying overnight to Europe soon. The plan is to just take a couple anti-histamines and so I don't have to experience any of the flight.
- cimmanom 7y agoThat’ll be fun when you spend 3 hours on the tarmac before your “short haul” flight due to airport congestion or weather conditions. Edited to add: what about people with disabilities? Can elderly people no longer fly? Or even if they have a few sitting seats to comply with disability regulations, what happens if you sprain your ankle at some point between booking your flight and boarding?
- sparkling 7y agoHaving been recently "traped" insinde a plane at the gate for nearly 3 hours, that is my main concern. Personaly i would have no problem with such a standing seat for short 30-60min flights if boarding and deboarding plane-to-gate process is <15min.
- mikybee93 7y agoI don't think anyone suggested that all seats are going to be replaced by these.
- cimmanom 7y agoSure, but if you have to pay a premium for regular seats just because you have a disability, that seems like a problem. And the injury scenario could also be extremely problematic. What if there are no sitting seats left, or you could afford the cattle class seat but not the business class seat? If my grandmother needs to fly, do we have to upgrade both her seat and someone else’s in the family to something twice as expensive so someone can help her with the various things she can’t do for herself any more? Or upgrade the whole family if we want to sit together? Current cattle class seats aren’t comfortable. But they’re accommodating to the elderly and people with disabilities or injuries. If some seat shuffling is required to accommodate a special case it’s usually just shifting people between aisle and non-aisle seats, not downgrading them to standing seats so someone else can sit.
- forinti 7y agoThere will, inevitably, be people who simply can't use these seats. If you have a bad knee, you might not be able to bend it. If you are old and have a bad back you might not be able to stay in a such a seat for long. This is going to cause trouble.
- moate 7y agoI'm sure there's going to be some sort of language at ticket purchase that you will be liable for any problems because you chose to stand the whole time. Or, if the flight maybe they offer you the option to purchase an upgrade to one of the unbooked chairs.
- rhexs 7y agoCurrently flights effectively have no room left anymore -- I have absolutely no idea why the seats on short-haul flights have the ability to recline. It's impossible to use a 15 inch laptop if the person in front of you moves their seat back. If Delta removes that ability, I'll start flying with them exclusively. Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever. I'd obviously also support regulation for minimum seat space sizes, but that will never happen in America.
- rootusrootus 7y ago> Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever. Have freakishly long legs? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever. I like this game. :)
- rhexs 7y agoI’d fit that case under my “minimum seat space regulation clause”, but yeah, not gonna happen. I feel for the tall guys on flights, but not enough to want them to jam their seat into my chest. Real enemy here is the airlines and the lack of regulation.
- tluyben2 7y agoIn most planes people cannot move their chair back when I sit behind them; my legs block them from doing so and that makes them angry often. So agreed; prevent the recline on short flights. For long haul economy I often cannot sit normally and usually they put me somewhere better except if it is a very full flight. Then it is absolute suffering. My last 10 hr flight was in a seat that was cramped against some divider screen and because of that the table was much smaller and I could physically not unfold it so it was impossible to eat or drink without spilling and it was too cramped to sleep. The staff absolutely did not care. It is bad news if you have to fly long haul on a budget...
- mLuby 7y ago>Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever. This line of thinking deserves reflection. Too fat/tall/disabled/female†? Pay more for this condition you probably didn't choose and can't easily "remedy." And if you're lucky enough to not need "extras" to achieve baseline dignity and comfort, you'll certainly have family members who do. †Granted, this is how US healthcare works…
- mikybee93 7y agoThis makes no sense to me. Airlines are adding another option that is cheaper. How is that a bad thing? If I don't want the cheaper option, another airline will offer me a more comfortable one and I'll pay for it. What is there to be upset about here?
- kareemm 7y agoYou sound like an optimist. My take is that airlines are adding a worse option for the price they currently charge, which lets them charge more for the current options.
- mikybee93 7y agoBut in order for that to work, every single airline would have to do that together, holding hands. Because there are multiple airlines, a single airline could choose not to install them and keep their current prices for seats and outcompete those who do install these. I mean, that's basic economics of competition.
- maxsilver 7y ago> Because there are multiple airlines Where is this? In much of the US, there are only two airlines. Some lucky Americans might get to pick from three or four airlines. Airlines in the US are not really competitive in any meaningful way - https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/04/22/a-lack-of-competition-explains-the-flaws-in-american-aviation https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/04/22/a-lack-of-compe... All American Airlines has to do is announce they're eliminating seats, and Delta and United would probably match them within 3 to 6 months.
- kareemm 7y ago> I mean, that's basic economics of competition. Yes, in a free market. Airlines are expensive and heavily regulated. And regulators are subject to capture (ref: FAA and 737-MAX problems). Which means there are major barriers to building a new airline. I suspect it's actually much more profitable for airlines to follow the profit-seeking lead of a competitor. E.g. if Delta rolled out the standing seats for their current price, I suspect we'd see United and American follow. You don't have to look too far to see that's been the case with other "conveniences" like bag check fees, bag weight limits, seat selection fees, food for sale instead of being included in the price, etc.
- moftz 7y agoI would want to try sitting in one sometime. Airlines might have a better time trying to push the idea if they can get mockups built that can be installed in terminals at major airlines. If it's actually not that bad, let people test it out. It looks terrible but so is sitting in a cramped airline chair with your knees jammed into the seatback. If the vertical seat at least gave the illusion of more room in the sense that you aren't physically pressed up against anything, it might feel more comfortable. Another issue with the vertical seats is that everyone is a different height and therefore a different inseam length, how do you accommodate shorter people and children while also fitting tall people in? Having the saddle/seat being able to move up and down like an office chair would help.
- x86_64Ubuntu 7y agoYou are talking about the "hidden comfort" of such a system. Ask yourself this, where else do you see such a configuration where there isn't a profit motive? Do people eat dinner in such a configuration? Do their living rooms have vertical seats? What about movie theaters, stadiums and classrooms? Of course you don't.
- majewsky 7y agoBusiness opportunity: A university where tuition is way cheaper because the lecture halls have those standing seats to cram in twice as many students. /s
- slater 7y agoSo is there, then, a market for an airline that offers substantially more legroom and larger seats (biz-class-size for the entire plane?) for a slight increase in price? Aforementioned Delta Airlines had $1.3bn in PROFITS last year, so not sure about razor-thin margins.
- ghaff 7y agoIt's been tried. Doesn't seem to work. Too many people pick flights on the basis of cost. British Air does have business class only between JFK and London City airport but that's obviously not a very representative pair of cities and is, I assume, standard business class pricing (i.e. multiples of coach).
- rootusrootus 7y agoI've never seen it, but I've long thought it would be interesting to see an airline campaign on such a feature. The problem now is that cattle class is cheap, and the next step up is a small increment in comfort but twice the cost.
- kamarg 7y agoI don't believe they have actually flown a single flight yet but supposedly https://www.zedaerospace.com/ https://www.zedaerospace.com/ will be flying it's first routes sometime this year. They're claiming first class seating for all passengers on all flights. Prices look not unreasonably low if they actually deliver what they're claiming but they're also selling $100/month subscriptions that get you cheaper flights and...I'm not sure what else.
- Someone1234 7y agoFlight comparison sites don't show any information about comfort, so passengers cannot pick it. Meaning all they'll see is "Ultracheap: $50" Vs. "ComfortAir: $80" and pick the $50 option because that's all the information they're given. You want to sell a nicer class of service, you need to change the entire industry to communicate it.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
- mrerrormessage 7y agoAm I the only one who thinks standing for shorter flights of < 3 hours would be healthier and more comfortable? I work regularly at a standing desk, sitting for too long makes me feel lethargic and often causes headaches for me (it's much easier to have good posture, neck and back alignment when standing). For longer flights, people need a seat, but for shorter flights I would gladly pay the same price to be able to stand instead.
- mhluongo 7y agoFor folks with vascular issues, standing while flying can be more dangerous (increased vascular load). Movement rather than standing or sitting still is the way to go.
- rootusrootus 7y agoMy achilles tendon is starting to ache a little just thinking about being forced to stand for a flight.
- MiddleEndian 7y agoWhen I fly I spend much of my time asleep. I make (the same) sub-2 hour flights annually and I would hate to have to stay awake for them.
- lenticular 7y agoAirlines are having near-record profits now. I have a hard time believing there isn't some implicit or explicit collusion going on with US carriers. Not only are seats ever-more cramped and the fees ever greater, but pilot benefits have been massively slashed at many airlines as well. The series of mergers we have had have made things worse, I think.
- overthemoon 7y agoThis is my suspicion, as well. I don't buy the complaints about thin margins driving these decisions. The main innovation of airlines appears to be exactly how much misery people will put up with and still buy a ticket.
- x86_64Ubuntu 7y agoRazor thin margins and R&D expense is how folks handwave away being gouged by price or having service that would be deemed illegal for cattle.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoSome of us barely fit into a jet cabin at all now! Anything over maybe 5'10" and you have to duck. I'm 6'4". Imagine standing for an hour with your neck torqued because the headroom is too little. In addition the new Delta legroom of 23" (including the depth of the seat!) will make it impossible for me to sit down. My knee is 25" from the seat (I just measured it). With existing 29" 'seat pitch' cabins, I have to splay my legs or sit sideways. I guess it'll be the train for me.
- swarnie_ 7y agoDo you even have a functioning passenger train network? I've heard terrible things.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoI can get to maybe two destinations from Iowa on Amtrak. Takes a couple of days to get to either coast. And no cheaper than by air.
- leetcrew 7y agothe train network is great! if you live in DC, NYC, or Boston, you can easily get to any other of those three cities! ...
- cannonedhamster 7y agoExcept it's more expensive than flying. I'd love to take the train from Boston to DC but buses are significantly cheaper and generally get you there at a similar time when you take into account how often they leave.
- DanTheManPR 7y agoThe US has an extensive rail network, but it's main purpose is for freight transport. There is a lot of freight train traffic in the US, and so many Americans live and work near train tracks, cross them during commutes, are used to interacting with trains. Just not riding on them. Subways and other forms of light rail are common in large cities and have a lot of ridership. But these are not typically very plugged into broader rail network. Only a few of the major cities like Chicago or New York have shared stations for local and non-local train service. Taking a train between metropolitan areas us very uncommon outside of the east coast corridor. For my part, I travel between Minneapolis, Milwaukee and Chicago quite often. I've done it once all by train, just to see what it was like. I can park my car at the Mall of America, take the light rail over to the Amtrak station, then the train down to Union station in Chicago, then a commuter train out to my destination in the suburbs. All told... it ends up taking 12+ hours, and costs about the same as the plane ticket down there. The Megabus is way cheaper, and takes about as long. I could just make the 6 to 8 hour drive, which gives me maximum flexibility. Passenger rail face some stiff competition.
- paultopia 7y agoThe funny thing is, this headline could have been published any time in the last couple of decades, and it would still be true.
- dcbadacd 7y agoI'm not sure how that's going to work a single person not of the average height, are they saying tall people have to just stand without support and short people get ass-stabbed by the seat?
- EADGBE 7y agoTIL there's an exposition for everything. https://www.aircraftinteriorsexpo.com/ https://www.aircraftinteriorsexpo.com/
- lizknope 7y agoPeople want cheap flights. Some people want more comfortable flights and are willing to pay. I fly about 3 times a year domestically in the United States and Delta, American, and United all have a "Comfort or Economy Plus" section with extra legroom. It costs between $50-200 per flight extra but also includes boarding right after first class before everyone else. For me it is totally worth it. I don't need first class treatment but at my height the extra legroom is absolutely worth the price.
- Y0s 7y agoI have to fly for university work. They can only purchase economy seats. Either I pay personally out of pocket or suffer (I'm 6'4"). I don't quite fly enough, and to diverse international destinations on partner airlines, that status upgrades are rare.
- ghaff 7y agoStatus upgrades are pretty rare until you get to about 100K miles or so per year--and, even then, far from universal and free.
- Cakez0r 7y agoThis would have to be coupled with a reduction in carry on luggage size. Overhead compartments are already frequently full with the current number of passengers in economy cabins.
- wtdata 7y agoThe government needs to step in (probably the only one with the will to do it will be - sooner or later - the EU commission) and define minimum space in flight seats. Regulation, when done properly, really improved life for everyone.
- kiernan 7y agoSeats should automatically recline after take-off, and automatically raise during meals and landing. No manual recline control.
- username223 7y agoPrior art: http://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/large106661.html http://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/large106661.html
- Jemm 7y agoThe quest to cut costs is worse than seats, it extends to safety and pilot training as seen by the Ethiopian airlines co-pilot who had less than 100 flight hours before being put into a 737.