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This focus on surveillance in China is incredibly disingenuous because things aren't actually all that different in the West. We all carry phones that collect a

This focus on surveillance in China is incredibly disingenuous because things aren't actually all that different in the West. We all carry phones that collect a ton of information on us, and we now know that this information is shared with the government. The only difference is that in China you know that the state watches you while here we pretend that it's not the case. The reality is that Chinese government is just more open about it. We also have a social credit system here it's your credit rating score. Your value in the West is determined solely by the size of your bank account. So, perhaps if we don't like what we see in China, it's time to start looking inward instead of pointing fingers.

Gustomaximus 8y ago
> things aren't actually all that different in the West Really. I feel there's a massive difference between agencies background lurking looking for signs of extremism to focus limited physical surveillance resources and a 'social credit score' where you ability to work a job, attend a school or catch a plane etc is based on a computer generated score on how the govt feels you should act from their surveillance.
- yorwba 8y ago
  > agencies background lurking looking for signs of extremism to focus limited physical surveillance resources A common pattern in stories about people interned in "reeducation camps" in Xinjiang is that they spent some time abroad, e.g. in Kazakhstan, then returned to their hometown and were arrested as terrorist suspects. E.g. https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=666287509 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=666287509 > 'social credit score' where you ability to work a job, attend a school or catch a plane etc is based on a computer generated score Such a thing does not exist yet, and although it might become reality at some point, it's all speculation so far: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social... China's surveillance capabilities are pretty similar to the West, the greatest difference is in the way that information is used, since they aren't as worried about targeting innocent people.
- raxxorrax 8y ago
  So just address the problems with this "limited physical surveillance" first. Because this approach got copied by many countries, sanctioned by western democracy and freedom. An approach born out of fear and incapability of interpreting data related to "extremism" while simultaneously instilling paranoia in anyone. The calculation around security is way off and created whole industries that want to keep it that way. This is the worst form of policy making in the last 50-70 years. And it has a solid head start. So yes, it would be indeed wise to keep your criticism to yourself, because it should be considered improper.
- luckylion 8y ago
  Austria, Germany and certainly others in the West are looking to completely outlaw online anonymity. That sounds neither focused nor limited to me.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  Well, this particular article is about surveillance tech sold by China. The complain is that Chinese companies don't have the sense of responsibility that Western companies have. While I'd agree that domestically, the West doesn't have China's direct illegalizing of dissent, for the sales of tech to other nations (Saudi Arabia or China itself), claims of Western superiority seem awfully stretched.
o10449366 8y ago
Agreed. I'm not saying that it's right, but China selling surveillance technology in South America really isn't different from the West's long history of selling arms and weapons to political/terrorist groups in the same region. They're both means to control and oppress, they just achieve them in different ways.
dwohnitmok 8y ago
China still feels worlds apart to me, even on a day-to-day basis. Here are some examples in tech: * Connecting to free WiFi at the airport? Need to provide ID. * Want to set up a website? Need to apply for a license with the government and provide a local Chinese ID. * Want to use Aliyun (the equivalent of AWS)? Need to provide ID. I also suspect this information transmission is two-way. I am fairly certain private institutions in China have gotten my information from the government. The U.S. has problems. Many problems. But the scary thing about China is it's way way out there, and most people seem fine with it. The Overton Window is leaps and bounds ahead of the U.S. A vending machine is asking for your personal information to buy a soda (because all transactions are done through cellphone and they request permission from Alipay before you can pay)? Why not. I really want the soda (real example). No one bats an eye. And from an economic perspective it works! People like it; China's growing. And wow it makes things convenient for all parties involved (apart from annoying problems when first registering)! This makes other countries sit up and take notice and maybe think about adapting it for themselves.
- luckylion 8y ago
  How are taxes handled, do they automate based on digital records or are those still the individuals duty to report? How was that before widespread digitalization, how much privacy is/was ingrained in chinese culture? I'm asking because I had this "worlds apart" feeling recently as well when I googled my swedish uncle's address to see whether I had it formatted correctly. One click later and I was looking at his income, how many cars are registered to him & his family, what make and model they are etc.
- A2017U1 8y ago
  > Want to use Aliyun (the equivalent of AWS)? Need to provide ID. I'd love to know how you use AWS or paypal services anonymously.
ramraj07 8y ago
There are parts of schenzen where if you jaywalk in the road you instantly get a fine deducted from your account. Via facial recognition. I don't think that's the same as getting your license plate photographed if you skip a signal in the US.
- the_common_man 8y ago
  Well, in the US, you get a invoice sent to your home with the fine. So, the govt has all the required information already. (Just like how people justify using Google products, some might even consider it convenient if things got automatically deducted.)
4ntonius8lock 8y ago
The crazy thing for me is the lack of reason around talking about China and the West. The article basically says: "China is bad because it sells technology irresponsibly" (while implying the west does it responsibly) yogthos points out that this is wrong, since there is ample evidence of the US and it's companies selling repressive technology to repressive regimes. Then people start attacking his argument by saying "but IN CHINA it is worse". And there are a lot of these comments despite the fact that the article, nor the comment, are talking about 'where it's worse'. If it was any other line of reasoning, this wouldn't be happening on hacker news.
- dwohnitmok 8y ago
  I think this particular set of responses is talking not about selling repressive technologies, but about the state of surveillance in those home countries. That is my interpretation of yogthos' comment wasn't that there was ample evidence of the U.S. selling repressive technology to repressive regimes (FWIW indeed there is), but rather that it's rich for Western residents to criticize Chinese surveillance (within China) given that the West has essentially the same surveillance within its respective countries, just hidden a lot better. Hence there is no moral high ground for the West to stand on. My own take is that I don't care about moral high ground or no moral high ground, nor am I even sure I'm criticizing the Chinese government per se. I do think the state of surveillance is a factor in China's current economic success (in fact that's one reason I find it rather terrifying from a personal perspective since that makes it attractive as a model to follow) and that's done wonders for a lot of people in China (though certainly not everyone). I do think though that the situation is very different between the two areas (certainly at least China and the U.S.), to the degree that saying the two systems are essentially the same, just with different amounts of public acknowledgment from their respective governments, is glossing over too many important differences.

Gustomaximus 8y ago

> things aren't actually all that different in the West Really. I feel there's a massive difference between agencies background lurking looking for signs of extremism to focus limited physical surveillance resources and a 'social credit score' where you ability to work a job, attend a school or catch a plane etc is based on a computer generated score on how the govt feels you should act from their surveillance.

yorwba 8y ago
> agencies background lurking looking for signs of extremism to focus limited physical surveillance resources A common pattern in stories about people interned in "reeducation camps" in Xinjiang is that they spent some time abroad, e.g. in Kazakhstan, then returned to their hometown and were arrested as terrorist suspects. E.g. https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=666287509 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=666287509 > 'social credit score' where you ability to work a job, attend a school or catch a plane etc is based on a computer generated score Such a thing does not exist yet, and although it might become reality at some point, it's all speculation so far: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social... China's surveillance capabilities are pretty similar to the West, the greatest difference is in the way that information is used, since they aren't as worried about targeting innocent people.
raxxorrax 8y ago
So just address the problems with this "limited physical surveillance" first. Because this approach got copied by many countries, sanctioned by western democracy and freedom. An approach born out of fear and incapability of interpreting data related to "extremism" while simultaneously instilling paranoia in anyone. The calculation around security is way off and created whole industries that want to keep it that way. This is the worst form of policy making in the last 50-70 years. And it has a solid head start. So yes, it would be indeed wise to keep your criticism to yourself, because it should be considered improper.
luckylion 8y ago
Austria, Germany and certainly others in the West are looking to completely outlaw online anonymity. That sounds neither focused nor limited to me.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Well, this particular article is about surveillance tech sold by China. The complain is that Chinese companies don't have the sense of responsibility that Western companies have. While I'd agree that domestically, the West doesn't have China's direct illegalizing of dissent, for the sales of tech to other nations (Saudi Arabia or China itself), claims of Western superiority seem awfully stretched.

o10449366 8y ago

Agreed. I'm not saying that it's right, but China selling surveillance technology in South America really isn't different from the West's long history of selling arms and weapons to political/terrorist groups in the same region. They're both means to control and oppress, they just achieve them in different ways.

dwohnitmok 8y ago

China still feels worlds apart to me, even on a day-to-day basis. Here are some examples in tech: * Connecting to free WiFi at the airport? Need to provide ID. * Want to set up a website? Need to apply for a license with the government and provide a local Chinese ID. * Want to use Aliyun (the equivalent of AWS)? Need to provide ID. I also suspect this information transmission is two-way. I am fairly certain private institutions in China have gotten my information from the government. The U.S. has problems. Many problems. But the scary thing about China is it's way way out there, and most people seem fine with it. The Overton Window is leaps and bounds ahead of the U.S. A vending machine is asking for your personal information to buy a soda (because all transactions are done through cellphone and they request permission from Alipay before you can pay)? Why not. I really want the soda (real example). No one bats an eye. And from an economic perspective it works! People like it; China's growing. And wow it makes things convenient for all parties involved (apart from annoying problems when first registering)! This makes other countries sit up and take notice and maybe think about adapting it for themselves.

luckylion 8y ago
How are taxes handled, do they automate based on digital records or are those still the individuals duty to report? How was that before widespread digitalization, how much privacy is/was ingrained in chinese culture? I'm asking because I had this "worlds apart" feeling recently as well when I googled my swedish uncle's address to see whether I had it formatted correctly. One click later and I was looking at his income, how many cars are registered to him & his family, what make and model they are etc.
A2017U1 8y ago
> Want to use Aliyun (the equivalent of AWS)? Need to provide ID. I'd love to know how you use AWS or paypal services anonymously.

ramraj07 8y ago

There are parts of schenzen where if you jaywalk in the road you instantly get a fine deducted from your account. Via facial recognition. I don't think that's the same as getting your license plate photographed if you skip a signal in the US.

the_common_man 8y ago
Well, in the US, you get a invoice sent to your home with the fine. So, the govt has all the required information already. (Just like how people justify using Google products, some might even consider it convenient if things got automatically deducted.)

4ntonius8lock 8y ago

The crazy thing for me is the lack of reason around talking about China and the West. The article basically says: "China is bad because it sells technology irresponsibly" (while implying the west does it responsibly) yogthos points out that this is wrong, since there is ample evidence of the US and it's companies selling repressive technology to repressive regimes. Then people start attacking his argument by saying "but IN CHINA it is worse". And there are a lot of these comments despite the fact that the article, nor the comment, are talking about 'where it's worse'. If it was any other line of reasoning, this wouldn't be happening on hacker news.

dwohnitmok 8y ago
I think this particular set of responses is talking not about selling repressive technologies, but about the state of surveillance in those home countries. That is my interpretation of yogthos' comment wasn't that there was ample evidence of the U.S. selling repressive technology to repressive regimes (FWIW indeed there is), but rather that it's rich for Western residents to criticize Chinese surveillance (within China) given that the West has essentially the same surveillance within its respective countries, just hidden a lot better. Hence there is no moral high ground for the West to stand on. My own take is that I don't care about moral high ground or no moral high ground, nor am I even sure I'm criticizing the Chinese government per se. I do think the state of surveillance is a factor in China's current economic success (in fact that's one reason I find it rather terrifying from a personal perspective since that makes it attractive as a model to follow) and that's done wonders for a lot of people in China (though certainly not everyone). I do think though that the situation is very different between the two areas (certainly at least China and the U.S.), to the degree that saying the two systems are essentially the same, just with different amounts of public acknowledgment from their respective governments, is glossing over too many important differences.