5 ms·

Doesn't LIDAR has similar problems with precipitation? Regardless of what solution proves to be the best, there is going to be a decent amount of time between

by slg 8y ago

Doesn't LIDAR has similar problems with precipitation? Regardless of what solution proves to be the best, there is going to be a decent amount of time between when a self driving car can handle most scenarios and when it can handle all possible scenarios.

semi-extrinsic 8y ago
Here's a snow cover map of North America on a random day in January: https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/USA/2019/ims2019025_usa.gif https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/U... Here is Europe and Asia on the same day: https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/EuAsia/2019/ims2019025_asiaeurope.gif https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/E... For someone who lives in or close to that white part, "most scenarios" includes snow. Arguably for Level 4 autonomous cars in those areas, you either need to fully disable autonomy in September and enable it again in late April, or you'll need to handle snow.
- slg 8y ago
  You are comparing two different things. Old snow on the ground (your images) is not the same thing as active or recent snow accumulation on the vehicle (the original comment). It is completely reasonable for the car to disable autonomy due to snow accumulation until someone clears it off the vehicle. That says nothing about the autonomy of the vehicle with snow cover on the ground.
  - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
    I'm assuming Level 4 is what Musk means by Full Self Driving. The bar to be passed is then "No driver attention is ever required for safety (...) self-driving is only supported in limited circumstances (e.g. geofencing), and when these circumstances are no longer met the vehicle must be able to safely abort the trip, e.g. park the car, if the driver does not retake control." How would that work if you're out driving on the highway, and it starts snowing hard so the car can't see anything? Just park on the highway? If your car can't safely handle such a scenario, the automous feature would have to be "season-fenced" in addition to geofenced.
    - slg 8y ago
      It isn’t like it all cameras simultaneously go from 0% obstruction to 100% obstruction instantaneously. The car should pull off the highway and park or at least pull to the shoulder and park once it has identified decreased visibility to an extent that might impact safety.
      - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
        It kinda is though. Snow deposition is a function of surface temperature, which is uniform across the sensor. Hit the wrong initial temp when you enter a blizzard, and deposition takes your vision in seconds. It can be hard enough to see out the windshield which has heating, wipers and anti-freeze wiper fluid fighting for it.
        slg 8y ago
        Do you realize how far you have moved the goalposts during this conversation? You started out with the suggestion that they "fully disable autonomy in September and enable it again in late April" and now you are talking about situations with "the wrong initial temp when you enter a blizzard". I will simply refer back to my initial comment in this thread: "there is going to be a decent amount of time between when a self driving car can handle most scenarios and when it can handle all possible scenarios". Blizzards are not in the "most scenarios" group. Barring emergencies, no one should be driving in a blizzard let alone an autonomous car.
        derpherp 8y ago
        I don't think OP has moved the goalposts at all. LIDAR can work in snow but cameras get covered. And yes you are right, there will be a decent time between testing in some basic scenarios and testing in all scenarios. But I do not understand why Mr. Musk is trying to reinvent the wheel and rely only on vision when LIDAR has already shown that it works better. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciology/article/lidar-measurement-of-snow-depth-a-review/4419DF5C778946103080CB6187D434C0/core-reader https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciolog...
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
Water affects certain wavelengths, and there's been good progress on LIDAR that uses wavelengths that aren't effected. Most approaches want to use a wavelength that has as little ambient light as possible. That light is absent precisely because it is absorbed by water vapor in the atmosphere. The alternative approach must deal with lower signal:noise, but is not substantially affected by weather.

by slg 8y ago

semi-extrinsic 8y ago

Here's a snow cover map of North America on a random day in January: https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/USA/2019/ims2019025_usa.gif https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/U... Here is Europe and Asia on the same day: https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/EuAsia/2019/ims2019025_asiaeurope.gif https://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_v3/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/E... For someone who lives in or close to that white part, "most scenarios" includes snow. Arguably for Level 4 autonomous cars in those areas, you either need to fully disable autonomy in September and enable it again in late April, or you'll need to handle snow.

slg 8y ago
You are comparing two different things. Old snow on the ground (your images) is not the same thing as active or recent snow accumulation on the vehicle (the original comment). It is completely reasonable for the car to disable autonomy due to snow accumulation until someone clears it off the vehicle. That says nothing about the autonomy of the vehicle with snow cover on the ground.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  I'm assuming Level 4 is what Musk means by Full Self Driving. The bar to be passed is then "No driver attention is ever required for safety (...) self-driving is only supported in limited circumstances (e.g. geofencing), and when these circumstances are no longer met the vehicle must be able to safely abort the trip, e.g. park the car, if the driver does not retake control." How would that work if you're out driving on the highway, and it starts snowing hard so the car can't see anything? Just park on the highway? If your car can't safely handle such a scenario, the automous feature would have to be "season-fenced" in addition to geofenced.
  - slg 8y ago
    It isn’t like it all cameras simultaneously go from 0% obstruction to 100% obstruction instantaneously. The car should pull off the highway and park or at least pull to the shoulder and park once it has identified decreased visibility to an extent that might impact safety.
    - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
      It kinda is though. Snow deposition is a function of surface temperature, which is uniform across the sensor. Hit the wrong initial temp when you enter a blizzard, and deposition takes your vision in seconds. It can be hard enough to see out the windshield which has heating, wipers and anti-freeze wiper fluid fighting for it.
      - slg 8y ago
        Do you realize how far you have moved the goalposts during this conversation? You started out with the suggestion that they "fully disable autonomy in September and enable it again in late April" and now you are talking about situations with "the wrong initial temp when you enter a blizzard". I will simply refer back to my initial comment in this thread: "there is going to be a decent amount of time between when a self driving car can handle most scenarios and when it can handle all possible scenarios". Blizzards are not in the "most scenarios" group. Barring emergencies, no one should be driving in a blizzard let alone an autonomous car.
        derpherp 8y ago
        I don't think OP has moved the goalposts at all. LIDAR can work in snow but cameras get covered. And yes you are right, there will be a decent time between testing in some basic scenarios and testing in all scenarios. But I do not understand why Mr. Musk is trying to reinvent the wheel and rely only on vision when LIDAR has already shown that it works better. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciology/article/lidar-measurement-of-snow-depth-a-review/4419DF5C778946103080CB6187D434C0/core-reader https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciolog...

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago

Water affects certain wavelengths, and there's been good progress on LIDAR that uses wavelengths that aren't effected. Most approaches want to use a wavelength that has as little ambient light as possible. That light is absent precisely because it is absorbed by water vapor in the atmosphere. The alternative approach must deal with lower signal:noise, but is not substantially affected by weather.