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I've always thought two things: - Subway should have leaned into their use of soy in their deli meat [1] and came in from the high end with it being the more e

I've always thought two things: - Subway should have leaned into their use of soy in their deli meat [1] and came in from the high end with it being the more expensive, high end, healthier, better for the environment product - There should be high end burger chain which give you an eighth of a pound real meat burger patty for taste reasons and an eighth of a pound vegetarian patty for health and environment reasons. If everyone switched to such a solution, we could could our greenhouse gas emissions from burger production in half. In all honesty, this comment is based on superficial skimming of the following article/Beyond Meat press release [2]. In fact, the Asian means of eating tofu is fundamentally different from the vegitarian way of eating tofu. The Asian means of preparation is typically 75% tofu and 25% is meat for taste. When you go 100% tofu, its no wonder most people won't touch it. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680/dna-tests-find-subway-chicken-only-50-percent-meat-canadian-media-reports https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/21/how-bill-gates-backed-vegan-beyond-meat-is-winning-over-meat-eaters.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/21/how-bill-gates-backed-vegan-... "Producing Beyond Burgers uses 99 percent less water, 93 percent less land, creates 90 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions and requires 46 percent less energy than producing beef burgers, according to a September report commissioned by Beyond Meat."

rayiner 8y ago
> If everyone switched to such a solution, we could could our greenhouse gas emissions from burger production in half. We'd be eating less tasty burgers for no real reason. Even eliminating meat farming entirely would only reduce the average American's GHG emissions by about 3%: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/climate/cows-global-warming.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/climate/cows-global-warmi....
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  That’s a fairly strange reading of the US data. It’s only true because of the USA’s massive use of emissions in other parts of their lives. In non-relative terms it’s still a huge reduction & if we can get in front of developing nations eating of ruminants it would pay large dividends.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    I don't know what's "fairly strange" about it. Meat consumption, for Americans, does not make up a big fraction of our CO2 footprint. Globally it's quite significant, but "get[ting] in front of developing nations eating of ruminants" is a much more politically fraught issue than doing the same in the U.S. My brother and I are 3-4 inches taller than my dad, because we grew up on a meat and dairy rich American diet, versus the rice and lentil-based diet my dad grew up with in his village in Bangladesh. Help me figure out the right messaging for what we should tell Bangladeshis that they shouldn't eat meat now that they're finally getting to be able to afford it. As to the other components of GHG emissions--those are ramping up outside the U.S. as well, explosively so. Food delivery services are becoming quite popular in Dhaka. Help me figure out the messaging for how we tell Bangladeshis they can't have drive-through Starbucks and avocado toast like western people.
    - kasey_junk 8y ago
      Directly from your link “Worldwide, livestock accounts for between 14.5 percent and 18 percent of human-induced greenhouse gas emissions. The percentage is lower in the United States in part because our overall greenhouse gas emissions are so much higher than other countries: In the United States we emit 16.5 metric tons per person per year compared to a worldwide average of about five metric tons. Most of America’s emissions come from power plants and transportation, with each accounting for a third of the total.” We emit 3x the emissions as everyone else. The fact that relatively meat is smaller than other places isn’t interesting. It’s lost in the statistical wash of our extreme usage but accounts for a large portion in real terms. There is virtually no evidence that suggests calories from meat are better for your health than other protein but ruminant protein especially is carbon intensive. So the message is straightforward western countries moving to plant based protein decreases inequality in comparison.
    - djakjxnanjak 8y ago
      > Help me figure out the right messaging for what we should tell Bangladeshis that they shouldn't eat meat now that they're finally getting to be able to afford it. Are you trying to say we shouldn’t save the world from environmental destruction because it might be awkward to ask some people to switch to fake meat? How about this messaging: “we are destroying the world, we need to stop”
- nothal 8y ago
  So far as I can tell, that number is speaking directly to methane emitted from livestock which is not where the majority of livestock emissions come from. It’s more related to the fossil fuel usage and transportation costs.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    No, it says farming overall accounts for 8% of green house gas emissions, and animal farming is 42% of that.
  - aflag 8y ago
    Do the alternatives require less transportation?
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  3% is a big deal. This isn't a problem with a single big lever that suddenly solves 60% of the problem. We're going to be looking for opportunities to reduce by 1% here, 0.5% there.
- ehsankia 8y ago
  > We'd be eating less tasty burgers for no real reason I'm curious, have you actually tried these (especially the newer versions)? Honestly they're getting close to indistinguishable. Honestly, GHG aside, I'd be excited for when this scales up and becomes cheaper and easier to produce than real beef.
- hervature 8y ago
  If you think 3% is insignificant, go ask your boss for a 3% raise.
acomjean 8y ago
>There should be high end burger chain which give you an eighth of a pound real meat burger patty for taste reasons and an eighth of a pound vegetarian patty for health and environment reasons. I do this at tasty burger in boston. (order one meat burger and one veggie burger.) Shake Shack has a Shake Stack which is their meat burger topped with a deep fried mushroom burger. I'm not sure either of these is much healthier than eating pure beef, but the combo of the two patties is quite good (and presumably more eco-friendly). The idea came to me when my takeout order was mixed up and I got a veggie burger. On my third bite, I thought, not bad, but this could use a little beef flavor.. (Shake shack came up with it independently) We have a vegetarian restaurant in town that deep fries everything, leaving me wondering about the health value..
kabacha 8y ago
> Asian means of eating tofu is fundamentally different from the vegitarian way of eating tofu. The Asian means of preparation is typically 75% tofu and 25% is meat for taste. Am from Asia and I've never heard and seen this in my life. Tofu is _never_ mixed with meat. That's a bit of an absurd statement as tofu and meat have nothing in common unless frozen and deepfried (then tofu has a texture of chicken).
- mcrae 8y ago
  Fairly common in Korean cooking from my experience? Usually some stew with tofu and pork and whatnot. Rarely is it eaten on its own except for banchan/side dishes.
  - 55555 8y ago
    The claim being contested is that pork/beef is mixed INTO the tofu while the blocks of tofu are being made.
    - wastedhours 8y ago
      Fair reading, but not my interpretation - I believe the GP was referencing using 75% tofu and 25% in the preparation of dishes, not in the preparation of the tofu itself.
- ponyfleisch 8y ago
  > Tofu is _never_ mixed with meat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_doufu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_doufu
- somethoughts 8y ago
  Sorry - yes, I meant served with meat, not necessarily ground and blended together. I'm thinking Mapo Tofu (Chinese), Soondubu/Jjigae (Korean), Niku Tofu (Japanese).

rayiner 8y ago

> If everyone switched to such a solution, we could could our greenhouse gas emissions from burger production in half. We'd be eating less tasty burgers for no real reason. Even eliminating meat farming entirely would only reduce the average American's GHG emissions by about 3%: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/climate/cows-global-warming.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/climate/cows-global-warmi....

kasey_junk 8y ago
That’s a fairly strange reading of the US data. It’s only true because of the USA’s massive use of emissions in other parts of their lives. In non-relative terms it’s still a huge reduction & if we can get in front of developing nations eating of ruminants it would pay large dividends.
- rayiner 8y ago
  I don't know what's "fairly strange" about it. Meat consumption, for Americans, does not make up a big fraction of our CO2 footprint. Globally it's quite significant, but "get[ting] in front of developing nations eating of ruminants" is a much more politically fraught issue than doing the same in the U.S. My brother and I are 3-4 inches taller than my dad, because we grew up on a meat and dairy rich American diet, versus the rice and lentil-based diet my dad grew up with in his village in Bangladesh. Help me figure out the right messaging for what we should tell Bangladeshis that they shouldn't eat meat now that they're finally getting to be able to afford it. As to the other components of GHG emissions--those are ramping up outside the U.S. as well, explosively so. Food delivery services are becoming quite popular in Dhaka. Help me figure out the messaging for how we tell Bangladeshis they can't have drive-through Starbucks and avocado toast like western people.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    Directly from your link “Worldwide, livestock accounts for between 14.5 percent and 18 percent of human-induced greenhouse gas emissions. The percentage is lower in the United States in part because our overall greenhouse gas emissions are so much higher than other countries: In the United States we emit 16.5 metric tons per person per year compared to a worldwide average of about five metric tons. Most of America’s emissions come from power plants and transportation, with each accounting for a third of the total.” We emit 3x the emissions as everyone else. The fact that relatively meat is smaller than other places isn’t interesting. It’s lost in the statistical wash of our extreme usage but accounts for a large portion in real terms. There is virtually no evidence that suggests calories from meat are better for your health than other protein but ruminant protein especially is carbon intensive. So the message is straightforward western countries moving to plant based protein decreases inequality in comparison.
  - djakjxnanjak 8y ago
    > Help me figure out the right messaging for what we should tell Bangladeshis that they shouldn't eat meat now that they're finally getting to be able to afford it. Are you trying to say we shouldn’t save the world from environmental destruction because it might be awkward to ask some people to switch to fake meat? How about this messaging: “we are destroying the world, we need to stop”
nothal 8y ago
So far as I can tell, that number is speaking directly to methane emitted from livestock which is not where the majority of livestock emissions come from. It’s more related to the fossil fuel usage and transportation costs.
- rayiner 8y ago
  No, it says farming overall accounts for 8% of green house gas emissions, and animal farming is 42% of that.
- aflag 8y ago
  Do the alternatives require less transportation?
Pfhreak 8y ago
3% is a big deal. This isn't a problem with a single big lever that suddenly solves 60% of the problem. We're going to be looking for opportunities to reduce by 1% here, 0.5% there.
ehsankia 8y ago
> We'd be eating less tasty burgers for no real reason I'm curious, have you actually tried these (especially the newer versions)? Honestly they're getting close to indistinguishable. Honestly, GHG aside, I'd be excited for when this scales up and becomes cheaper and easier to produce than real beef.
hervature 8y ago
If you think 3% is insignificant, go ask your boss for a 3% raise.

acomjean 8y ago

>There should be high end burger chain which give you an eighth of a pound real meat burger patty for taste reasons and an eighth of a pound vegetarian patty for health and environment reasons. I do this at tasty burger in boston. (order one meat burger and one veggie burger.) Shake Shack has a Shake Stack which is their meat burger topped with a deep fried mushroom burger. I'm not sure either of these is much healthier than eating pure beef, but the combo of the two patties is quite good (and presumably more eco-friendly). The idea came to me when my takeout order was mixed up and I got a veggie burger. On my third bite, I thought, not bad, but this could use a little beef flavor.. (Shake shack came up with it independently) We have a vegetarian restaurant in town that deep fries everything, leaving me wondering about the health value..

kabacha 8y ago

> Asian means of eating tofu is fundamentally different from the vegitarian way of eating tofu. The Asian means of preparation is typically 75% tofu and 25% is meat for taste. Am from Asia and I've never heard and seen this in my life. Tofu is _never_ mixed with meat. That's a bit of an absurd statement as tofu and meat have nothing in common unless frozen and deepfried (then tofu has a texture of chicken).

mcrae 8y ago
Fairly common in Korean cooking from my experience? Usually some stew with tofu and pork and whatnot. Rarely is it eaten on its own except for banchan/side dishes.
- 55555 8y ago
  The claim being contested is that pork/beef is mixed INTO the tofu while the blocks of tofu are being made.
  - wastedhours 8y ago
    Fair reading, but not my interpretation - I believe the GP was referencing using 75% tofu and 25% in the preparation of dishes, not in the preparation of the tofu itself.
ponyfleisch 8y ago
> Tofu is _never_ mixed with meat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_doufu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_doufu
somethoughts 8y ago
Sorry - yes, I meant served with meat, not necessarily ground and blended together. I'm thinking Mapo Tofu (Chinese), Soondubu/Jjigae (Korean), Niku Tofu (Japanese).