6 ms·

I really hope that some day Ubuntu will have enough power&steam to attack the Clipboard Problem. It is the #1 issue that makes me dislike working with a Linux d

by jwr 8y ago

I really hope that some day Ubuntu will have enough power&steam to attack the Clipboard Problem. It is the #1 issue that makes me dislike working with a Linux desktop. Consistent system-wide clipboard behavior with consistent keyboard shortcuts. Look to Mac OS for an example of how to get this right. And I don't even need graphics/media support in the first iteration: just get me basic plaintext copy/paste.

massive-tea 8y ago
Linux (really X Windows) has the best clipboard: select text to "copy", middle click to "paste".
- jwr 8y ago
  Yes, I also had this smug attitude, having used the X terminals (the real ones, as in physical X terminals) back in 1994 or so, and then using X11 on various machines and operating systems since then. Then I started using Mac OS X and I realized that it's actually nice to be able to select text and NOT have it auto-copied obliterating my clipboard, but instead be able to replace it using Command-V. And it's a pretty cool invention that the same shortcuts work in all applications, consistently. And that I can copy text in any application and paste it in any other using the same shortcut. And that I don't have to use the middle mouse button, which is a scrollwheel these days and is difficult to hit without invoking the scroll functionality. And it's pretty nice to be able to paste to where the cursor is RIGHT NOW without carefully positioning the mouse pointer and making sure it doesn't move while you carefully try to hit the middle button (otherwise your text will get inserted wherever the mouse moves in the meantime, if you are in a browser edit window). I could go on. There are so many things which can be done better if we drop the "the way X11 did this is the best way, ever" attitude. And then, eventually, once we get text copy/paste right, we can get to copying images, which again is a totally solved problem on Mac OS X.
  - massive-tea 8y ago
    X has the manual clipboard as well, though. It's always worked for me. Do you have any specific examples of where it fails? > is a totally solved problem on Mac OS X. It's solved there because it's a walled garden. It's essentially a different problem that they've solved. The problem here is making that work while still being the free software operating system we love.
  - Recursing 8y ago
    > it's actually nice to be able to select text and NOT have it auto-copied obliterating my clipboard Can't you just use ctrl+c and ctrl+v and ignore the other clipboard? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Selections https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Selections
    - jwr 8y ago
      > the other clipboard "The other clipboard" is part of the problem I'm describing. Why would you have "the other clipboard" in your system? But you know what: I've read the replies in this discussion and I rest my case. It seems that most Linux users are OK with the current situation and do not even want to hear about the possibility of a better solution. This is why things will not change. I'll just use OS X for development, happily paying Apple a premium for getting things to work for me.
      - massive-tea 8y ago
        Why should things change just because you want them to? We're a community of hackers who built our own operating system. You're very welcome to join us but unless you're willing to pay us what you're willing to pay Apple you're going to have to implement what you want yourself. But you're free to implement it yourself. That freedom is what we value.
        zapzupnz 8y ago
        This seems like an overly personal take from someone who cannot possibly claim to represent all Linux users. There are plenty of Linux users with gripes about the UI and various aspects of the environment, hence why there are so many bloody Linux apps that basically do the same thing, so many desktop environments, and more being made every day. An idea about the user experience is worth paying attention to even if they can't implement it themselves. To brush off the idea with a "well, if you like it so much, make it yourself" is churlish and dismissive. It's not an attitude that helps advance beyond the status quo. It seems like closed-mindedness to constructive criticism, alarmingly similar to the mindset GNOME's developers have towards basically everybody, stubbornly refusing to accept that other peoples' points of view can have merit and value. Ironically, it's a very closed, Microsoftian value for a Linux user to hold: Not Invented Here.
- isido 8y ago
  It is really nice when using mouse, but with trackpad, it is unfortunately not as convenient.
- baq 8y ago
  please tell me there's something like ditto https://ditto-cp.sourceforge.io/ https://ditto-cp.sourceforge.io/ for X. i've got mine bound to C-` on windows 10 and can't work on a desktop which doesn't have it installed.
  - massive-tea 8y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if there is. I spend much of my life in emacs and it has a very similar thing called the kill-ring.
  - artworx 8y ago
    KDE has a clipboard manager app, I think its called Klipper. I never used it because I don't like having a history of my actions.
  - Recursing 8y ago
    https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Managers https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Managers there are many clipboard managers for X
- AgentME 8y ago
  I wish there was an option somewhere to disable this. I middle-click-paste by accident way too often. I hate having two separate clipboards that I have to think about what's in each.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Ha, I use Kubuntu and just installed Win 10 on a computer for games (for the kids). Main thing I miss using it is my clipboard (klipper, IIRC) from Kubuntu.
eitland 8y ago
What? I never realized there was a problem with clipboards on mainstream Linux desktops? Edit: after a couple of minutes of thinking I have found one single thing that isn't consistent: when copying and pasting from/to a terminal I have to use ctrl + shift + c or ctrl + shift + v (understandable since ctrl + c is used to terminate running programs). Personally I guess cut, copy and paste should have been moved to Super + x/c/v since they are global os-level shortcuts, but it would break the habits of many of us so I guess that should be configurable as well.
- isostatic 8y ago
  > I never realized there was a problem with clipboards on mainstream Linux desktops? Highlight, middleclick, job done
  - randoramax 8y ago
    This. The MacOS and Windows users have been missing on that powerful shortcut for years and now complain for a CTRL-SHIFT-C /V in terminal? Boohoo :)
    - isostatic 8y ago
      That's the problem, I don't care about whatever they do, but when they remove stuff that the rest of us have been using for decades because windows doesn't do it, that is a problem. Improvements shouldn't break things.
      - panpanna 8y ago
        Tell that to the gnome team whose main design philosophy is to remove things people love then fight really hard to justify it.
        isostatic 8y ago
        I haven't used gnome since about 2000. Englightenment, IceWM, fluxbox, blackbox ring a bell, but it's been xfce for the last decade (well just the panel and the window manager)
a1369209993 8y ago
Uhhg, this pisses me off; I had to write my own terminal emulator to get one that handled Cc and Cv correctly[0]. 0: Also to get working (not blurry) fonts and a couple of other assorted improvements. Still working on killing that damn line discipline, though.
screye 8y ago
Not exactly a solution. But I use this: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/779/clipboard-indicator/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/779/clipboard-indicat...
radarsat1 8y ago
I dunno man, I regularly copy partial screenshots and paste them into my gmail of all things and it works perfectly. Also pasting into GIMP, or pasting into Telegram. Similarly I paste text from the terminal into other programs.. honestly, where is the problem? My computer doesn't even have a middle-click button (trackpad) so I don't even remember about the X clipboard most of the time, it's a complete non-issue these days. > consistent keyboard shortcuts Apart from the terminal which obviously needs an alternative to Ctrl-C (same as Windows, and shift-ctrl-C beats shift-insert or whatever any day), and Emacs which is, you know, emacs, I can't think of any programs that do not consistently use Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. So what are you referring to here?

by jwr 8y ago

massive-tea 8y ago

Linux (really X Windows) has the best clipboard: select text to "copy", middle click to "paste".

jwr 8y ago
Yes, I also had this smug attitude, having used the X terminals (the real ones, as in physical X terminals) back in 1994 or so, and then using X11 on various machines and operating systems since then. Then I started using Mac OS X and I realized that it's actually nice to be able to select text and NOT have it auto-copied obliterating my clipboard, but instead be able to replace it using Command-V. And it's a pretty cool invention that the same shortcuts work in all applications, consistently. And that I can copy text in any application and paste it in any other using the same shortcut. And that I don't have to use the middle mouse button, which is a scrollwheel these days and is difficult to hit without invoking the scroll functionality. And it's pretty nice to be able to paste to where the cursor is RIGHT NOW without carefully positioning the mouse pointer and making sure it doesn't move while you carefully try to hit the middle button (otherwise your text will get inserted wherever the mouse moves in the meantime, if you are in a browser edit window). I could go on. There are so many things which can be done better if we drop the "the way X11 did this is the best way, ever" attitude. And then, eventually, once we get text copy/paste right, we can get to copying images, which again is a totally solved problem on Mac OS X.
- massive-tea 8y ago
  X has the manual clipboard as well, though. It's always worked for me. Do you have any specific examples of where it fails? > is a totally solved problem on Mac OS X. It's solved there because it's a walled garden. It's essentially a different problem that they've solved. The problem here is making that work while still being the free software operating system we love.
- Recursing 8y ago
  > it's actually nice to be able to select text and NOT have it auto-copied obliterating my clipboard Can't you just use ctrl+c and ctrl+v and ignore the other clipboard? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Selections https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Selections
  - jwr 8y ago
    > the other clipboard "The other clipboard" is part of the problem I'm describing. Why would you have "the other clipboard" in your system? But you know what: I've read the replies in this discussion and I rest my case. It seems that most Linux users are OK with the current situation and do not even want to hear about the possibility of a better solution. This is why things will not change. I'll just use OS X for development, happily paying Apple a premium for getting things to work for me.
    - massive-tea 8y ago
      Why should things change just because you want them to? We're a community of hackers who built our own operating system. You're very welcome to join us but unless you're willing to pay us what you're willing to pay Apple you're going to have to implement what you want yourself. But you're free to implement it yourself. That freedom is what we value.
      - zapzupnz 8y ago
        This seems like an overly personal take from someone who cannot possibly claim to represent all Linux users. There are plenty of Linux users with gripes about the UI and various aspects of the environment, hence why there are so many bloody Linux apps that basically do the same thing, so many desktop environments, and more being made every day. An idea about the user experience is worth paying attention to even if they can't implement it themselves. To brush off the idea with a "well, if you like it so much, make it yourself" is churlish and dismissive. It's not an attitude that helps advance beyond the status quo. It seems like closed-mindedness to constructive criticism, alarmingly similar to the mindset GNOME's developers have towards basically everybody, stubbornly refusing to accept that other peoples' points of view can have merit and value. Ironically, it's a very closed, Microsoftian value for a Linux user to hold: Not Invented Here.
isido 8y ago
It is really nice when using mouse, but with trackpad, it is unfortunately not as convenient.
baq 8y ago
please tell me there's something like ditto https://ditto-cp.sourceforge.io/ https://ditto-cp.sourceforge.io/ for X. i've got mine bound to C-` on windows 10 and can't work on a desktop which doesn't have it installed.
- massive-tea 8y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if there is. I spend much of my life in emacs and it has a very similar thing called the kill-ring.
- artworx 8y ago
  KDE has a clipboard manager app, I think its called Klipper. I never used it because I don't like having a history of my actions.
- Recursing 8y ago
  https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Managers https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/clipboard#Managers there are many clipboard managers for X
AgentME 8y ago
I wish there was an option somewhere to disable this. I middle-click-paste by accident way too often. I hate having two separate clipboards that I have to think about what's in each.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Ha, I use Kubuntu and just installed Win 10 on a computer for games (for the kids). Main thing I miss using it is my clipboard (klipper, IIRC) from Kubuntu.

eitland 8y ago

What? I never realized there was a problem with clipboards on mainstream Linux desktops? Edit: after a couple of minutes of thinking I have found one single thing that isn't consistent: when copying and pasting from/to a terminal I have to use ctrl + shift + c or ctrl + shift + v (understandable since ctrl + c is used to terminate running programs). Personally I guess cut, copy and paste should have been moved to Super + x/c/v since they are global os-level shortcuts, but it would break the habits of many of us so I guess that should be configurable as well.

isostatic 8y ago
> I never realized there was a problem with clipboards on mainstream Linux desktops? Highlight, middleclick, job done
- randoramax 8y ago
  This. The MacOS and Windows users have been missing on that powerful shortcut for years and now complain for a CTRL-SHIFT-C /V in terminal? Boohoo :)
  - isostatic 8y ago
    That's the problem, I don't care about whatever they do, but when they remove stuff that the rest of us have been using for decades because windows doesn't do it, that is a problem. Improvements shouldn't break things.
    - panpanna 8y ago
      Tell that to the gnome team whose main design philosophy is to remove things people love then fight really hard to justify it.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        I haven't used gnome since about 2000. Englightenment, IceWM, fluxbox, blackbox ring a bell, but it's been xfce for the last decade (well just the panel and the window manager)

a1369209993 8y ago

Uhhg, this pisses me off; I had to write my own terminal emulator to get one that handled Cc and Cv correctly[0]. 0: Also to get working (not blurry) fonts and a couple of other assorted improvements. Still working on killing that damn line discipline, though.

screye 8y ago

Not exactly a solution. But I use this: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/779/clipboard-indicator/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/779/clipboard-indicat...

radarsat1 8y ago

I dunno man, I regularly copy partial screenshots and paste them into my gmail of all things and it works perfectly. Also pasting into GIMP, or pasting into Telegram. Similarly I paste text from the terminal into other programs.. honestly, where is the problem? My computer doesn't even have a middle-click button (trackpad) so I don't even remember about the X clipboard most of the time, it's a complete non-issue these days. > consistent keyboard shortcuts Apart from the terminal which obviously needs an alternative to Ctrl-C (same as Windows, and shift-ctrl-C beats shift-insert or whatever any day), and Emacs which is, you know, emacs, I can't think of any programs that do not consistently use Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. So what are you referring to here?