16 ms·

A physics master’s degree opens doors to myriad careers

169 points by digital55 8y ago

fspeech 8y ago
Once you have the job a master's degree is a master's degree. If your employer (esp. large ones) has some benefits in place for possessing a master's you will qualify. However when you apply for jobs hiring managers may not know what your master's degree (or Ph.D. for that matter) in physics entails.
- jeffreyrogers 8y ago
  Depends on the job. Some government labs will only hire people with MS's or PhDs in physics or a related field.
andrewfromx 8y ago
i like the story of the college grads with terrible undergraduate grades applying for the masters program, and getting in! And then turning their life around. After they graduate with a master's degree its like all their undergraduate sins are erased.
- metamet 8y ago
  After your first job out of college, your undergraduate sins are essentially erased as well. The longer your career exists, the smaller the emphasis (and value of) your undergraduate performance becomes.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  At the risk of sounding like pissing in the fish pond, my final year felt a lot like buffing. At this point you're not bad enough to get the boot but you can still be mediocre and pass because it's mostly networking.
Y_Y 8y ago
I didn't do my physics PhD expecting it would lead to a job. Which is good because it hasn't.
- mjfl 8y ago
  but I'm sure, given your anticipation, you prepared alternative pathways to employment, such as taking CS classes, doing internships?
- robertAngst 8y ago
  I am very happy I choose to work on my own projects than peruse a PhD. Anecdotes like yours from my peers were very helpful in making this decision. Not to mention, both teachers seemed like they wanted me to pay to do their work.
no_one_ever 8y ago
Please please please do not pursue a PhD or MSc in Physics on the sole expectation it will open a door to a career that you believe would otherwise be closed. You will not enjoy it.
- nikomen 8y ago
  So I assume it would acceptable to pursue a degree if you enjoy physics and hope to use the knowledge and degree to advance your career. Are the job prospects for advanced degrees in physics that poor?
  - plazmaphyujin 8y ago
    I would say yes. Pursue physics only because you love it. Unless you want to go into Defense the job prospects are terrible. However, learning physics teaches you how to learn anything and how to do it fast. This turns out to be an invaluable skill for programming, so physicists make great programmers. You just have to earn it on top of all the physics.
    - rongenre 8y ago
      Yeah it's very much like that with my math degree. Demonstrated ability to torture myself with difficult concepts.
      - analog31 8y ago
        I mentioned in another thread, if you can get good at something that other people hate, you won't be unemployed. Although, it might take longer to find a job if it's not a fungible skill. But the secret is, it's not torture. For most people, it's prohibitively difficult to reach the expert level in something that we're not inclined to enjoy.
      - jackcosgrove 8y ago
        I think engineering degrees demonstrate an ability to torture oneself with boring and routine concepts. A skill which is apparently more valuable in the working world.
throwaway2019Z 8y ago
From my experience both interviewing and hiring, a physics degree absolutely will not help you in tech. You will have more credibility than any non-STEM graduate, but employers will constantly wonder if you've bridged the gap created by your lack of a CS degree.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  I would think that might be true right out of school. But with a little bit of experience and maybe some cool projects under your belt, I would think a physics degree would look very good for some of those really specialty, high paying jobs. But I can definitely see how it wouldn't help at the onset.
- cjhanks 8y ago
  I guess my experience has been the opposite. On every software R&D team I have been on, there has been about an even mix of computer science, physics, and mathematics with a few sprinkles of data science from the biology fields. Especially by year 5 or so - who can tell the difference between a computer scientist that knows physics and a physicist who knows computer science? The only skills a person needs to learn coding is the desire to learn coding and the persistence to do it.
  - throwaway2019Z 8y ago
    This has been my experience within teams as well, but it was clear to me that we were hired in spite of our degrees rather than because of them. I do not regret my physics education, and I would encourage young people who are passionate about the subject to pursue it. However, I think that they should go in knowing that unless they intend to stay in academia/research/defense, a physics degree is, at best, a signal of intelligence, and, at worst, a signal of overspecialization in a disparate field.
  - otras 8y ago
    I would say GP's claim applies best for the first job, where that question of the gap is most visible. I studied physics and later entered tech. The first proper development job was the hardest to get, because it was an uphill battle to prove competency.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
billfruit 8y ago
Some universities have an Engineering Physics undergraduate program, seems like a good option, of having choices to work in a lot of industries.
- LASR 8y ago
  I have a Bachelors degree in Engineering Physics. Currently making ~300k/yr in as a software engineer working at a standard software company. My education has very little relevance to my field of work. But Engineering Physics was so comprehensive, it gives you the ability to problem-solve on a whole other level. And that is much more valuable to employeers than the actual content of your degree.
raegis 8y ago
Just get a masters in mathematics. If you end up teaching, there are way more mathematics openings than physics openings. Usually there are 0 physics openings.
PaulHoule 8y ago
... except in physics.
muvek 8y ago
I have an MS in physics and I disagree with this. If you want opened doors, go for software engineering. You have so many things you can do with software, seriously. I have finished my master's in November, and I have been looking for a job. I have not been very lucky so far. I am looking for data-science related stuff. If you have any suggestions, please, I am all ears. (I am in Europe) There was a time when, if you had a degree in Physics, they'd throw money at you. That is no longer true.
- ataturk 8y ago
  I don't even think a SWE Master's is worth it at all anymore. Get real experience and be able to impress in an interview and you will go way further. As far as Data Science goes, for the most part I see the DS folks coming from other internal roles in an organization, not hired from outside. So first get hired doing something where you come to understand the data, then segue into the role you desire. Things may be changing for what I just said, however.
- mjfl 8y ago
  why data science and not something where physics degrees confer more of a comparative advantage? Something like telecommunications engineering or something of that sort?
  - muvek 8y ago
    My MS was in astroparticle physics (applied). That means I am better suited for data science than for engineering stuff. Weirdly enough, if I knew optics but no coding I would be in a better place than the one I am in right now, which is: I know (a little bit of) coding but no optics.
    - MockObject 8y ago
      Applied?
      - muvek 8y ago
jakeinspace 8y ago
Does anybody have experience going from a CS/engineering undergrad to a physics MSc? I graduated last year with a CE/EE degree (so, some relevant background in mathematics and electromagnetism, not much quantum). I'm looking at programs which would let me leverage CS/software skills to make up for my lack of physics education, and of course I'm reading textbooks in my free time to try to catch up a bit. I don't have any expectation that this would be helpful to my career.
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  I have met a physicist at Perimeter Institute who went all the way to Engineering at Master level and pivoted to Physics PhD. If he could do that, I'm sure you can. I do not remember his name, just his face.
  - ConfusedDog 8y ago
    I know a person who can do that - Howard Wolowitz.
spullara 8y ago
It me! Dropped out of my PhD program to do software engineering. Great preparation for thinking from first principles.
msvan 8y ago
I've spent a lot of time getting an MA in mathematics, but I sometimes feel that I should've just gone straight for computer science. I never intended to do pure math research. My CS friends know more about databases and distributed systems than I do, even if I know more about representation theory. Still, if you subscribe to the signaling theory of education, what does it matter.
- f3r3nc 8y ago
  in a few years much of the current technologies gets obsolete not the mathematical foundations
- mjfl 8y ago
  > My CS friends know more about databases and distributed systems than I do, even if I know more about representation theory I don't mean to be rude but this was a very foreseeable outcome of a masters in math. Why didn't you foresee it?
  - msvan 8y ago
    My reasons for choosing what I chose do not fit into a Hacker News comment.
oneepic 8y ago
I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Just be careful, I guess, and get plenty of advice from real people who took that path (successfully or not). Oh, and a bachelor's in engineering physics seems to lead to nothing as well. Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". They just went on to grad school in plain old physics since they had 0 other options besides learning to code.
- mrits 8y ago
  I've never considered being a PhD dropout a bad thing. There are so many legit reasons for not finishing a program.
  - rongenre 8y ago
    I've been in recruiting discussions where we specifically wanted an ABD in CS (we wanted ability, but also eagerness to work in a new subject area). Although, it's conceivable that being both ABD and not specifically in CS is seen as a bridge too far.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Why did you want an ABD but not a PhD holder though?
      - throwawayjava 8y ago
        Interest in "something new, anything new" tends to substantially increase in the past 2ish months of a PhD. Not sure if this is a reason for or against.
      - hueving 8y ago
        Intimidation.
    - j7ake 8y ago
noetic_techy 8y ago
Not my experience and I have a Engineering-Physics degree, which is essentially a full physics degree with additionaly courses gears towards training us as systems engineers and luckily that's how I landed a job afterwards. I tell all prospective physics majors to dual major in CS or EE or some other engineering useful discipline if you truly want to do something good. You have a much better chance of landing a job afterwards and gaining the foothold you need to propel into what you really want to do. Most places outside academia don't know what to do with you. Funny thing is, the people I know with physics degrees end up being some of the best engineers and quickly bubble to the top. HR types have a hard time seeing that potential if you don't fit their criteria degree exactly.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  Physics major myself and found it pretty much the same as you mentioned. Definitely wish they had put more emphasis on double majoring, or doing internships and such.
- nikk1 8y ago
  I'm a recent graduate with a BS in Engineering Physics (EP) as well. I chose the field because I love mathematics and because of the "infinite career possibilities" that the Physics department advertised (just like in this article) which was actually very misleading. I had a really hard time getting started right out of college (your description of HR's view of EP majors is spot on) and started to pursue my Master's at the same University in EP. I dropped out of my Master's program after about a year because I realized I hated doing academic research. A lot of the courses that I took were also very similar to my undergraduate courses... So I didn't feel like I was gaining any added value from my MS. Most of us graduates in EP either went to pursue graduate work or became Systems Engineers. Now I'm working as a Systems Engineer really only because it felt like the only alternative. I'm planning on getting my Master's in CS so I can get myself on track to the career that I really want. I don't regret studying physics - but I wish I had done a double major instead.
  - noetic_techy 8y ago
    Yup, this resonates with me. I hated academia and wanted to get out there and do some real high level engineering work, so I took my BS in EP and left. Luckily I had some decent programming skills and it helped me land my systems engineering job doing simulation work. Yes I reversed engineered system in order to understand how to simulate them which applies to my degree focus, but without the software background I could never put theory into practice. Now I'm a project engineer leading teams of other systems engineers, so it worked out ok for me. If you are the more mathematically inclined theoretical type rather than the build systems hand on type of physics major, you will have a harder time. First thing I do when I go back to visit my Alma mater is dispell their "infinite possibilities" myth.
superqd 8y ago
I have worked in the software world for 20 years, and started coding while in grad school studying for my master's in astrophysics. I initially was building websites on the side to make extra money, but then decided to go full time. My physics background never seemed to matter to anyone. It neither seemed to help or hurt, so long as I could do the work, they seemed content to believe I could learn anything else I'd need to know. Which was true. I bought books on various languages, patterns and computation theory (one of my favorite textbooks). Other than having co-workers find out I have a physics degree and thinking I'm the nerd as a result, there really hasn't been upside or downside to having studied physics. Though, I totally went into physics not for the career but because I really wanted to learn physics.
radres 8y ago
Grad school is one of the biggest modern scams that convinces highly skilled people to work for peanuts for years on end.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  it really is messed up. in addition, it creates a bunch of weird spots in the job search space. for example, i have come across many jobs that i am more than qualified for, but they ended up being "post-doctoral fellowships". so they are jobs that i can't get because i don't have a ph.d. but even if i could get them, i would take around a 50% pay cut. it doesn't make any sense whatsoever! the only explanation is the post-doc thing being basically a version of slavery for skilled and educated people.
ShepherdKing 8y ago
As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went the CS path. I only wished that I could have double majored in biology. I would say that my study in physics has taught me how to better see the "bigger picture" and to try to account for all possible outcomes in a given scenario.
- stdbrouw 8y ago
  > As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went the CS path. Not knocking on you specifically, but I've seen this kind of overconfidence before in physicists, mechanical engineers, mathematicians etc.: "programming / statistics / data science is so easy, of course I know what I'm doing and will be up to speed right away." Their work is generally not bad, but not particularly great either. I do think the scientific training and rigorous education in these fields helps, but if it's not supplemented with a little humility it makes for poor colleagues.
  - sidlls 8y ago
    It isn't overconfidence. The academic material these individuals study is directly and specifically related to the work of a data scientist. Statistical analysis is built in to any reasonably good physics curriculum starting with undergrad lab courses and proceeding through statistical mechanics, quantum physics and beyond.
    - SantalBlush 8y ago
      In your mind, do you think a physics degree or a statistics degree is better suited to doing data analysis, and why?
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
wyattjoh 8y ago
Interesting! Personally, I started with an B.Sc. Astrophysics, finished that. Realized that it may take a while before I could get in a job related to an area that I'm interested in. I went back and completed an B.Sc. Computer Sciences. I've typically justified the two degrees by explaining that physics taught me how to learn, how to break apart a problem, and computer sciences provided the foundational basics as to how to associate abstract concepts into software. It was certainly an experience!
ptero 8y ago
I think there are two parts of it. Physics degree is good -- obtaining it correlates with the head being screwed on straight and is often appreciated by employers. On the other axis, I am puzzled on why they consider a Masters as a sweet spot. If a graduate degree is not required, it does not get you much, career-wise; and wherever a graduate degree is appreciated a PhD gets you further. Just my 2c.
BeetleB 8y ago
In the US, a lot of Master's degrees in physics and mathematics are really watered down. I was an engineering student, and had an MS in engineering, and was pursuing a PhD in it as well. I dropped out of the PhD and got another MS in physics as a "consolation degree" - I basically had all the coursework done as part of my PhD, so the credits just transferred over and I had a free MS in physics. I almost got another MS in mathematics just for the heck of it (took courses for fun). Why do I say they are watered down degree? Because both the math and physics Master's requirements allow you to use courses that are required for their Bachelor's degree! So the main undergrad analysis class could be used for a Master's in mathematics (unless you had a math undergrad degree). They structured it this way to try to get people from outside the discipline (like me) into the MS program. I could get an "easier" MS in physics than a physics student could (they could not double count their credits for the MS degree). It may be another reason the MS degree in these disciplines is looked down upon.
dekhn 8y ago
I knew a ton of Physics PhDs who went on to be very successful software engineers. They were always sad they couldn't do physics because of either lack of salary or lack of good job options, but they were often very good quantitative engineers. My PhD opened a lot of doors but it also taught me that I didn't want to be a scientist.
loblollyboy 8y ago
ITT: a bunch of people with engineering physics or masters’ of physics who are either doing really well or not so well and ascribing that to their degree. I’m a loser because I have anxiety and don’t know how to sell myself, not because I have an MS. I keep going for shitty IT/programming jobs and they ask me “why aren’t you doing physics.” I say “I don’t think I’m smart enough.” Which is honest but I could just as easily bullshit them and use it to talk myself up. I don’t think many recruiters would last a month in those courses anyway.
projectramo 8y ago
Its just a strange thing to hear people say a physics masters is useful because it demonstrates your capacity to learn the same material as a computer science undergrad. I certainly respect a physics degree for the same reason I respect a math degree: it shows me that this person can work really, really hard for a long a time. If you're in physics or math you may know exactly what I mean, but if you're outside: it is bonkers how hard they have to work.
uselessphd 8y ago
A myriad careers... including unemployment.
stevenwoo 8y ago
If one is thinking about trying to become H1-B, one should be extremely wary: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-degree-holders-selected-in-this-years-lottery-feds-say/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-de... obviously this could change from Presidential administration to administration but they no longer permit those with physics/E.E./math advanced degrees to have H1-B for software work.
- romwell 8y ago
  What awful news! Unbelievably stupid (for reasons hopefully clear to everyone here). Extremely infuriating that someone would think that the people with these skills aren't extremely valuable for suitable software jobs (...contrary to what the market says). Especially so in Silicon Valley, where so many software engineering jobs are more on the side of scientific computing, and actually require advanced science degrees. E.g.: my previous employer was an EDA firm; guess what: writing software for litho mask optimization requires a solid knowledge of EM physics, chemistry and math quite beyond what a typical MS in Comp. Sci. might give. (Everyone on my team had a PhD, none a CompSci). Then there's the whole academic pyramid aspect: there are way more PhD students than academic jobs, and cutting off access to jobs for people getting PhD's in the US is a good way to slowly kill science (which is an international endeavor). Out of all the stupid anti-immigration initiatives, this one is the most outrageous. Signed, a mathematics PhD working in software engineering.
occamschainsaw 8y ago
I don't agree with this article. I did my undergrad with a Physics & CS double major. It was painful, 9 semesters of maximum allowed courseload. While people seemed to be impressed, I always felt like an imposter, knowing less CS than the CS students and less physics than the physics students. Couldn't maintain a great GPA either. Applied to 8 PhD programs, got rejected by all of them. Most of the CS companies also rejected me (a recruiter said I had too many degrees (???)). I did end up working at a National Lab, which was an amazing experience. Side note: The American Physical Society(APS) publishes undergrad physics employment data[0] that my peers and I used to look at to feel good about our non-grad school prospects after BS. After my degree I realized it is biased at best, misleading at worst. Currently I am doing an interdisciplinary (read flexible) masters program in computational science. It allows me to take both CS and physics grad classes and do research in physics labs too. Now I plan on pursuing research in machine learning applied to super big data hairy physics problems. I am gonna apply to PhD programs again (fields are fuzzy: physics, CS, ML, data science). Would I do it again? Hell yeah. Started out as physics and then CS seemed interesting. Both gave me valuable skills: Good understanding of data structures, HPC, prototyping is helpful with physics problems, and I am not afraid of math in grad ML classes because of physics. Would I recommend it to others? Not really unless you are extremely passionate about both (took me about 2 years to feel that) or are a genius and confident in your abilities (I am not). I am still anxious about the future, and where will I fit. If you have a passing interest in physics, do CS with a physics minor to satisfy that itch or pursue an interdisciplinary program[1] so you are not stranded employment wise. Set on being a physicist? Take some CS classes (data structures, simulation, numerical analysis, HPC, algorithms etc.) People of HN, if you have a similar background/work in a similar field, I would love to pick your brain about your path and research/career options. [0] https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm [1] https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-Undergraduate-Students/Detail/graduate-and-undergraduate-programs-in-computational-science https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-Underg...
- mettamage 8y ago
  I didn't read the artidcle yet, but I experience the same issues. Computer science + business minor as a bachelor Psychology (honours) as 2nd bachelor Game studies master Computer science research master My fields of interest: computer science, psychology and business. For the rest, your comment is almost identical, to some extent even the math parth (as psych. is quite statistics heavy compared to CS).
batbomb 8y ago
This is probably bad advice. Better advice would be to just find a good experiment at a reputable school and latch on. Projects in experimental physics at a good state school are typically a great place for access to a machine shop, computing resources, and the possibility for travel, in addition to the departments typically having a lower student to professor ratio compared to the engineering schools. You're also more likely to work for people with a variety of skills.
uptownfunk 8y ago
Came to check this to confirm my experience. I would hire an ex PhD physicist as a data scientist only if they actually talk data science in an interview. Even better if they have good work experience in the same field. One thing that really irks me is this notion that PhDs in physics are so smart just hire them and they can figure it out. Maybe that’s the case, but is it something I’m willing to take a bet on? probably not at least until you’ve learnt the field and ideally if you have experience. That said my best friend in high school was one of the smartest people I know, went on to do a PhD in physics and then took two years to find a job. I know the struggle these guys go though because I spent a lot of time trying to help the guy out. Thankfully he landed on his feet, but the sad truth is a lot of these guys either just really love the field or think they’re going to be the next Feynman, until they realize how competitive the physics world is for only a few tenured spots. The good news is if you’ve still got what it takes after a PhD or postdoc and you have the time or determination you’ve definitely already proved you have the horsepower, the work is then just converting that into something the real world appreciates.
elamje 8y ago
This should be nuanced with the fact that a Master's degree in the US is much different than Europe. Typically, in Europe, STEM fields do a "Masters" but it's really equivalent to junior and senior level coursework in the US. This was the case for me as an exchange CS student in Sweden at KTH, and it seemed that all of my Euro friends that were getting masters in their respective country just treat a Masters in STEM as a necessity and it didn't have the same pedigree or difficulty that a top tier US masters would. This is no shot at Euro schools, but something that was very clear to me and my American exchange counterparts when we talked to our EU friends, which were all engineers of some kind.
- repsilat 8y ago
  For a countervailing viewpoint, I got a Masters in CS from Georgia Tech, and it was just coursework at the level of my 3rd and 4th years of undergrad in New Zealand. Bit of a let-down.
  - elamje 8y ago
    In person or online?
    - repsilat 8y ago
      Online. Could have something to do with it. Some classes were very good, but on the whole I think of it mostly as a cheap thumb on the H-1B scales. (Not true on the whole, though -- students of the online program are statistically far more likely to be American citizens than their on-campus counterparts.)
      - elamje 8y ago
        I tend to think online programs, even from great schools like Georgia Tech or John Hopkins, are definitely easier than on campus. Typically on campus will attract students that did very well in undergrad and are on their way to a PhD, where as online has no option to continue for a PhD.
kmm 8y ago
I'm supposed to get my master's degree in physics this summer (only a thesis remains), and this thread is not doing me any good. Good thing I can program, I guess.
- throway1 8y ago
  I am enrolling in an undergrad physics+mathematics program soon. And I started feeling uncomfortable.
Anon84 8y ago
Case in point: an Ask HN from a few week ago about what people with Physics backgrounds are currently working on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151
mark_l_watson 8y ago
Physics is a great general purpose education. I have a BS in Physics, from the early 1970s, and while I have always worked in some form of software development or research role, Physics was a great start. In current times, a BS degree is probably not as useful, so spending a little extra time to get a MS makes sense.
rarrrrr 8y ago
In general, physics majors tend to be badasses. I know of people in a myriad of tech careers: site-reliability engineer, MBB management consulting, QA, offensive security.
kkarakk 8y ago
Another thing that opens the door to myriad careers is learning to code and learning math. it's free

169 points by digital55 8y ago

Once you have the job a master's degree is a master's degree. If your employer (esp. large ones) has some benefits in place for possessing a master's you will qualify. However when you apply for jobs hiring managers may not know what your master's degree (or Ph.D. for that matter) in physics entails.

jeffreyrogers 8y ago
Depends on the job. Some government labs will only hire people with MS's or PhDs in physics or a related field.

andrewfromx 8y ago

i like the story of the college grads with terrible undergraduate grades applying for the masters program, and getting in! And then turning their life around. After they graduate with a master's degree its like all their undergraduate sins are erased.

metamet 8y ago
After your first job out of college, your undergraduate sins are essentially erased as well. The longer your career exists, the smaller the emphasis (and value of) your undergraduate performance becomes.
agumonkey 8y ago
At the risk of sounding like pissing in the fish pond, my final year felt a lot like buffing. At this point you're not bad enough to get the boot but you can still be mediocre and pass because it's mostly networking.

Y_Y 8y ago

I didn't do my physics PhD expecting it would lead to a job. Which is good because it hasn't.

mjfl 8y ago
but I'm sure, given your anticipation, you prepared alternative pathways to employment, such as taking CS classes, doing internships?
robertAngst 8y ago
I am very happy I choose to work on my own projects than peruse a PhD. Anecdotes like yours from my peers were very helpful in making this decision. Not to mention, both teachers seemed like they wanted me to pay to do their work.

no_one_ever 8y ago

Please please please do not pursue a PhD or MSc in Physics on the sole expectation it will open a door to a career that you believe would otherwise be closed. You will not enjoy it.

nikomen 8y ago
So I assume it would acceptable to pursue a degree if you enjoy physics and hope to use the knowledge and degree to advance your career. Are the job prospects for advanced degrees in physics that poor?
- plazmaphyujin 8y ago
  I would say yes. Pursue physics only because you love it. Unless you want to go into Defense the job prospects are terrible. However, learning physics teaches you how to learn anything and how to do it fast. This turns out to be an invaluable skill for programming, so physicists make great programmers. You just have to earn it on top of all the physics.
  - rongenre 8y ago
    Yeah it's very much like that with my math degree. Demonstrated ability to torture myself with difficult concepts.
    - analog31 8y ago
      I mentioned in another thread, if you can get good at something that other people hate, you won't be unemployed. Although, it might take longer to find a job if it's not a fungible skill. But the secret is, it's not torture. For most people, it's prohibitively difficult to reach the expert level in something that we're not inclined to enjoy.
    - jackcosgrove 8y ago
      I think engineering degrees demonstrate an ability to torture oneself with boring and routine concepts. A skill which is apparently more valuable in the working world.

throwaway2019Z 8y ago

From my experience both interviewing and hiring, a physics degree absolutely will not help you in tech. You will have more credibility than any non-STEM graduate, but employers will constantly wonder if you've bridged the gap created by your lack of a CS degree.

jjeaff 8y ago
I would think that might be true right out of school. But with a little bit of experience and maybe some cool projects under your belt, I would think a physics degree would look very good for some of those really specialty, high paying jobs. But I can definitely see how it wouldn't help at the onset.
cjhanks 8y ago
I guess my experience has been the opposite. On every software R&D team I have been on, there has been about an even mix of computer science, physics, and mathematics with a few sprinkles of data science from the biology fields. Especially by year 5 or so - who can tell the difference between a computer scientist that knows physics and a physicist who knows computer science? The only skills a person needs to learn coding is the desire to learn coding and the persistence to do it.
- throwaway2019Z 8y ago
  This has been my experience within teams as well, but it was clear to me that we were hired in spite of our degrees rather than because of them. I do not regret my physics education, and I would encourage young people who are passionate about the subject to pursue it. However, I think that they should go in knowing that unless they intend to stay in academia/research/defense, a physics degree is, at best, a signal of intelligence, and, at worst, a signal of overspecialization in a disparate field.
- otras 8y ago
  I would say GP's claim applies best for the first job, where that question of the gap is most visible. I studied physics and later entered tech. The first proper development job was the hardest to get, because it was an uphill battle to prove competency.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

billfruit 8y ago

Some universities have an Engineering Physics undergraduate program, seems like a good option, of having choices to work in a lot of industries.

LASR 8y ago
I have a Bachelors degree in Engineering Physics. Currently making ~300k/yr in as a software engineer working at a standard software company. My education has very little relevance to my field of work. But Engineering Physics was so comprehensive, it gives you the ability to problem-solve on a whole other level. And that is much more valuable to employeers than the actual content of your degree.

raegis 8y ago

Just get a masters in mathematics. If you end up teaching, there are way more mathematics openings than physics openings. Usually there are 0 physics openings.

PaulHoule 8y ago

... except in physics.

muvek 8y ago

I have an MS in physics and I disagree with this. If you want opened doors, go for software engineering. You have so many things you can do with software, seriously. I have finished my master's in November, and I have been looking for a job. I have not been very lucky so far. I am looking for data-science related stuff. If you have any suggestions, please, I am all ears. (I am in Europe) There was a time when, if you had a degree in Physics, they'd throw money at you. That is no longer true.

ataturk 8y ago
I don't even think a SWE Master's is worth it at all anymore. Get real experience and be able to impress in an interview and you will go way further. As far as Data Science goes, for the most part I see the DS folks coming from other internal roles in an organization, not hired from outside. So first get hired doing something where you come to understand the data, then segue into the role you desire. Things may be changing for what I just said, however.
mjfl 8y ago
why data science and not something where physics degrees confer more of a comparative advantage? Something like telecommunications engineering or something of that sort?
- muvek 8y ago
  My MS was in astroparticle physics (applied). That means I am better suited for data science than for engineering stuff. Weirdly enough, if I knew optics but no coding I would be in a better place than the one I am in right now, which is: I know (a little bit of) coding but no optics.
  - MockObject 8y ago
    Applied?
    - muvek 8y ago

jakeinspace 8y ago

Does anybody have experience going from a CS/engineering undergrad to a physics MSc? I graduated last year with a CE/EE degree (so, some relevant background in mathematics and electromagnetism, not much quantum). I'm looking at programs which would let me leverage CS/software skills to make up for my lack of physics education, and of course I'm reading textbooks in my free time to try to catch up a bit. I don't have any expectation that this would be helpful to my career.

BenMorganIO 8y ago
I have met a physicist at Perimeter Institute who went all the way to Engineering at Master level and pivoted to Physics PhD. If he could do that, I'm sure you can. I do not remember his name, just his face.
- ConfusedDog 8y ago
  I know a person who can do that - Howard Wolowitz.

spullara 8y ago

It me! Dropped out of my PhD program to do software engineering. Great preparation for thinking from first principles.

msvan 8y ago

I've spent a lot of time getting an MA in mathematics, but I sometimes feel that I should've just gone straight for computer science. I never intended to do pure math research. My CS friends know more about databases and distributed systems than I do, even if I know more about representation theory. Still, if you subscribe to the signaling theory of education, what does it matter.

f3r3nc 8y ago
in a few years much of the current technologies gets obsolete not the mathematical foundations
mjfl 8y ago
> My CS friends know more about databases and distributed systems than I do, even if I know more about representation theory I don't mean to be rude but this was a very foreseeable outcome of a masters in math. Why didn't you foresee it?
- msvan 8y ago
  My reasons for choosing what I chose do not fit into a Hacker News comment.

oneepic 8y ago

I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Just be careful, I guess, and get plenty of advice from real people who took that path (successfully or not). Oh, and a bachelor's in engineering physics seems to lead to nothing as well. Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". They just went on to grad school in plain old physics since they had 0 other options besides learning to code.

mrits 8y ago
I've never considered being a PhD dropout a bad thing. There are so many legit reasons for not finishing a program.
- rongenre 8y ago
  I've been in recruiting discussions where we specifically wanted an ABD in CS (we wanted ability, but also eagerness to work in a new subject area). Although, it's conceivable that being both ABD and not specifically in CS is seen as a bridge too far.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Why did you want an ABD but not a PhD holder though?
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      Interest in "something new, anything new" tends to substantially increase in the past 2ish months of a PhD. Not sure if this is a reason for or against.
    - hueving 8y ago
      Intimidation.
  - j7ake 8y ago

noetic_techy 8y ago

Not my experience and I have a Engineering-Physics degree, which is essentially a full physics degree with additionaly courses gears towards training us as systems engineers and luckily that's how I landed a job afterwards. I tell all prospective physics majors to dual major in CS or EE or some other engineering useful discipline if you truly want to do something good. You have a much better chance of landing a job afterwards and gaining the foothold you need to propel into what you really want to do. Most places outside academia don't know what to do with you. Funny thing is, the people I know with physics degrees end up being some of the best engineers and quickly bubble to the top. HR types have a hard time seeing that potential if you don't fit their criteria degree exactly.

dorchadas 8y ago
Physics major myself and found it pretty much the same as you mentioned. Definitely wish they had put more emphasis on double majoring, or doing internships and such.
nikk1 8y ago
I'm a recent graduate with a BS in Engineering Physics (EP) as well. I chose the field because I love mathematics and because of the "infinite career possibilities" that the Physics department advertised (just like in this article) which was actually very misleading. I had a really hard time getting started right out of college (your description of HR's view of EP majors is spot on) and started to pursue my Master's at the same University in EP. I dropped out of my Master's program after about a year because I realized I hated doing academic research. A lot of the courses that I took were also very similar to my undergraduate courses... So I didn't feel like I was gaining any added value from my MS. Most of us graduates in EP either went to pursue graduate work or became Systems Engineers. Now I'm working as a Systems Engineer really only because it felt like the only alternative. I'm planning on getting my Master's in CS so I can get myself on track to the career that I really want. I don't regret studying physics - but I wish I had done a double major instead.
- noetic_techy 8y ago
  Yup, this resonates with me. I hated academia and wanted to get out there and do some real high level engineering work, so I took my BS in EP and left. Luckily I had some decent programming skills and it helped me land my systems engineering job doing simulation work. Yes I reversed engineered system in order to understand how to simulate them which applies to my degree focus, but without the software background I could never put theory into practice. Now I'm a project engineer leading teams of other systems engineers, so it worked out ok for me. If you are the more mathematically inclined theoretical type rather than the build systems hand on type of physics major, you will have a harder time. First thing I do when I go back to visit my Alma mater is dispell their "infinite possibilities" myth.

superqd 8y ago

I have worked in the software world for 20 years, and started coding while in grad school studying for my master's in astrophysics. I initially was building websites on the side to make extra money, but then decided to go full time. My physics background never seemed to matter to anyone. It neither seemed to help or hurt, so long as I could do the work, they seemed content to believe I could learn anything else I'd need to know. Which was true. I bought books on various languages, patterns and computation theory (one of my favorite textbooks). Other than having co-workers find out I have a physics degree and thinking I'm the nerd as a result, there really hasn't been upside or downside to having studied physics. Though, I totally went into physics not for the career but because I really wanted to learn physics.

radres 8y ago

Grad school is one of the biggest modern scams that convinces highly skilled people to work for peanuts for years on end.

nikofeyn 8y ago
it really is messed up. in addition, it creates a bunch of weird spots in the job search space. for example, i have come across many jobs that i am more than qualified for, but they ended up being "post-doctoral fellowships". so they are jobs that i can't get because i don't have a ph.d. but even if i could get them, i would take around a 50% pay cut. it doesn't make any sense whatsoever! the only explanation is the post-doc thing being basically a version of slavery for skilled and educated people.

ShepherdKing 8y ago

As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went the CS path. I only wished that I could have double majored in biology. I would say that my study in physics has taught me how to better see the "bigger picture" and to try to account for all possible outcomes in a given scenario.

stdbrouw 8y ago
> As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went the CS path. Not knocking on you specifically, but I've seen this kind of overconfidence before in physicists, mechanical engineers, mathematicians etc.: "programming / statistics / data science is so easy, of course I know what I'm doing and will be up to speed right away." Their work is generally not bad, but not particularly great either. I do think the scientific training and rigorous education in these fields helps, but if it's not supplemented with a little humility it makes for poor colleagues.
- sidlls 8y ago
  It isn't overconfidence. The academic material these individuals study is directly and specifically related to the work of a data scientist. Statistical analysis is built in to any reasonably good physics curriculum starting with undergrad lab courses and proceeding through statistical mechanics, quantum physics and beyond.
  - SantalBlush 8y ago
    In your mind, do you think a physics degree or a statistics degree is better suited to doing data analysis, and why?
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago

wyattjoh 8y ago

Interesting! Personally, I started with an B.Sc. Astrophysics, finished that. Realized that it may take a while before I could get in a job related to an area that I'm interested in. I went back and completed an B.Sc. Computer Sciences. I've typically justified the two degrees by explaining that physics taught me how to learn, how to break apart a problem, and computer sciences provided the foundational basics as to how to associate abstract concepts into software. It was certainly an experience!

ptero 8y ago

I think there are two parts of it. Physics degree is good -- obtaining it correlates with the head being screwed on straight and is often appreciated by employers. On the other axis, I am puzzled on why they consider a Masters as a sweet spot. If a graduate degree is not required, it does not get you much, career-wise; and wherever a graduate degree is appreciated a PhD gets you further. Just my 2c.

BeetleB 8y ago

In the US, a lot of Master's degrees in physics and mathematics are really watered down. I was an engineering student, and had an MS in engineering, and was pursuing a PhD in it as well. I dropped out of the PhD and got another MS in physics as a "consolation degree" - I basically had all the coursework done as part of my PhD, so the credits just transferred over and I had a free MS in physics. I almost got another MS in mathematics just for the heck of it (took courses for fun). Why do I say they are watered down degree? Because both the math and physics Master's requirements allow you to use courses that are required for their Bachelor's degree! So the main undergrad analysis class could be used for a Master's in mathematics (unless you had a math undergrad degree). They structured it this way to try to get people from outside the discipline (like me) into the MS program. I could get an "easier" MS in physics than a physics student could (they could not double count their credits for the MS degree). It may be another reason the MS degree in these disciplines is looked down upon.

dekhn 8y ago

I knew a ton of Physics PhDs who went on to be very successful software engineers. They were always sad they couldn't do physics because of either lack of salary or lack of good job options, but they were often very good quantitative engineers. My PhD opened a lot of doors but it also taught me that I didn't want to be a scientist.

loblollyboy 8y ago

ITT: a bunch of people with engineering physics or masters’ of physics who are either doing really well or not so well and ascribing that to their degree. I’m a loser because I have anxiety and don’t know how to sell myself, not because I have an MS. I keep going for shitty IT/programming jobs and they ask me “why aren’t you doing physics.” I say “I don’t think I’m smart enough.” Which is honest but I could just as easily bullshit them and use it to talk myself up. I don’t think many recruiters would last a month in those courses anyway.

projectramo 8y ago

Its just a strange thing to hear people say a physics masters is useful because it demonstrates your capacity to learn the same material as a computer science undergrad. I certainly respect a physics degree for the same reason I respect a math degree: it shows me that this person can work really, really hard for a long a time. If you're in physics or math you may know exactly what I mean, but if you're outside: it is bonkers how hard they have to work.

uselessphd 8y ago

A myriad careers... including unemployment.

stevenwoo 8y ago

If one is thinking about trying to become H1-B, one should be extremely wary: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-degree-holders-selected-in-this-years-lottery-feds-say/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-de... obviously this could change from Presidential administration to administration but they no longer permit those with physics/E.E./math advanced degrees to have H1-B for software work.

romwell 8y ago
What awful news! Unbelievably stupid (for reasons hopefully clear to everyone here). Extremely infuriating that someone would think that the people with these skills aren't extremely valuable for suitable software jobs (...contrary to what the market says). Especially so in Silicon Valley, where so many software engineering jobs are more on the side of scientific computing, and actually require advanced science degrees. E.g.: my previous employer was an EDA firm; guess what: writing software for litho mask optimization requires a solid knowledge of EM physics, chemistry and math quite beyond what a typical MS in Comp. Sci. might give. (Everyone on my team had a PhD, none a CompSci). Then there's the whole academic pyramid aspect: there are way more PhD students than academic jobs, and cutting off access to jobs for people getting PhD's in the US is a good way to slowly kill science (which is an international endeavor). Out of all the stupid anti-immigration initiatives, this one is the most outrageous. Signed, a mathematics PhD working in software engineering.

occamschainsaw 8y ago

I don't agree with this article. I did my undergrad with a Physics & CS double major. It was painful, 9 semesters of maximum allowed courseload. While people seemed to be impressed, I always felt like an imposter, knowing less CS than the CS students and less physics than the physics students. Couldn't maintain a great GPA either. Applied to 8 PhD programs, got rejected by all of them. Most of the CS companies also rejected me (a recruiter said I had too many degrees (???)). I did end up working at a National Lab, which was an amazing experience. Side note: The American Physical Society(APS) publishes undergrad physics employment data[0] that my peers and I used to look at to feel good about our non-grad school prospects after BS. After my degree I realized it is biased at best, misleading at worst. Currently I am doing an interdisciplinary (read flexible) masters program in computational science. It allows me to take both CS and physics grad classes and do research in physics labs too. Now I plan on pursuing research in machine learning applied to super big data hairy physics problems. I am gonna apply to PhD programs again (fields are fuzzy: physics, CS, ML, data science). Would I do it again? Hell yeah. Started out as physics and then CS seemed interesting. Both gave me valuable skills: Good understanding of data structures, HPC, prototyping is helpful with physics problems, and I am not afraid of math in grad ML classes because of physics. Would I recommend it to others? Not really unless you are extremely passionate about both (took me about 2 years to feel that) or are a genius and confident in your abilities (I am not). I am still anxious about the future, and where will I fit. If you have a passing interest in physics, do CS with a physics minor to satisfy that itch or pursue an interdisciplinary program[1] so you are not stranded employment wise. Set on being a physicist? Take some CS classes (data structures, simulation, numerical analysis, HPC, algorithms etc.) People of HN, if you have a similar background/work in a similar field, I would love to pick your brain about your path and research/career options. [0] https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm [1] https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-Undergraduate-Students/Detail/graduate-and-undergraduate-programs-in-computational-science https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-Underg...

mettamage 8y ago
I didn't read the artidcle yet, but I experience the same issues. Computer science + business minor as a bachelor Psychology (honours) as 2nd bachelor Game studies master Computer science research master My fields of interest: computer science, psychology and business. For the rest, your comment is almost identical, to some extent even the math parth (as psych. is quite statistics heavy compared to CS).

batbomb 8y ago

This is probably bad advice. Better advice would be to just find a good experiment at a reputable school and latch on. Projects in experimental physics at a good state school are typically a great place for access to a machine shop, computing resources, and the possibility for travel, in addition to the departments typically having a lower student to professor ratio compared to the engineering schools. You're also more likely to work for people with a variety of skills.

uptownfunk 8y ago

Came to check this to confirm my experience. I would hire an ex PhD physicist as a data scientist only if they actually talk data science in an interview. Even better if they have good work experience in the same field. One thing that really irks me is this notion that PhDs in physics are so smart just hire them and they can figure it out. Maybe that’s the case, but is it something I’m willing to take a bet on? probably not at least until you’ve learnt the field and ideally if you have experience. That said my best friend in high school was one of the smartest people I know, went on to do a PhD in physics and then took two years to find a job. I know the struggle these guys go though because I spent a lot of time trying to help the guy out. Thankfully he landed on his feet, but the sad truth is a lot of these guys either just really love the field or think they’re going to be the next Feynman, until they realize how competitive the physics world is for only a few tenured spots. The good news is if you’ve still got what it takes after a PhD or postdoc and you have the time or determination you’ve definitely already proved you have the horsepower, the work is then just converting that into something the real world appreciates.

elamje 8y ago

This should be nuanced with the fact that a Master's degree in the US is much different than Europe. Typically, in Europe, STEM fields do a "Masters" but it's really equivalent to junior and senior level coursework in the US. This was the case for me as an exchange CS student in Sweden at KTH, and it seemed that all of my Euro friends that were getting masters in their respective country just treat a Masters in STEM as a necessity and it didn't have the same pedigree or difficulty that a top tier US masters would. This is no shot at Euro schools, but something that was very clear to me and my American exchange counterparts when we talked to our EU friends, which were all engineers of some kind.

repsilat 8y ago
For a countervailing viewpoint, I got a Masters in CS from Georgia Tech, and it was just coursework at the level of my 3rd and 4th years of undergrad in New Zealand. Bit of a let-down.
- elamje 8y ago
  In person or online?
  - repsilat 8y ago
    Online. Could have something to do with it. Some classes were very good, but on the whole I think of it mostly as a cheap thumb on the H-1B scales. (Not true on the whole, though -- students of the online program are statistically far more likely to be American citizens than their on-campus counterparts.)
    - elamje 8y ago
      I tend to think online programs, even from great schools like Georgia Tech or John Hopkins, are definitely easier than on campus. Typically on campus will attract students that did very well in undergrad and are on their way to a PhD, where as online has no option to continue for a PhD.

kmm 8y ago

I'm supposed to get my master's degree in physics this summer (only a thesis remains), and this thread is not doing me any good. Good thing I can program, I guess.

throway1 8y ago
I am enrolling in an undergrad physics+mathematics program soon. And I started feeling uncomfortable.

Anon84 8y ago

Case in point: an Ask HN from a few week ago about what people with Physics backgrounds are currently working on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151

mark_l_watson 8y ago

Physics is a great general purpose education. I have a BS in Physics, from the early 1970s, and while I have always worked in some form of software development or research role, Physics was a great start. In current times, a BS degree is probably not as useful, so spending a little extra time to get a MS makes sense.

rarrrrr 8y ago

In general, physics majors tend to be badasses. I know of people in a myriad of tech careers: site-reliability engineer, MBB management consulting, QA, offensive security.

kkarakk 8y ago

Another thing that opens the door to myriad careers is learning to code and learning math. it's free