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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
- StudyAnimal 16y agoThat reminds me, what happened with the Florian Leibert scandal? Any word from him since the event?
- forgotusername 16y agoIt appears to have died, or migrated to more appropriate fora. Thankfully.
- trevi 16y agoBy the way who really uses fora as the plural of forum? To me it seems at best arbitrary, at worst pretentious.
- mahmud 16y agoPretension and grammar-Nazism are the virii of online communication.
- forgotusername 16y agoI'm sorry, next time I'll uses "forumses". Damn ecomony got all these morans backs up!
- trevi 16y agoYou're implying that fora is the only acceptable way of writing the plural of "forum". That's nonsense, forums is perfectly valid English. My point was: why forum/fora? Why not creditor/creditores, or abdomen/abdomina?
- forgotusername 16y agoI'm honestly not sure. Perhaps this topic would be more appropriate for a linguistics forum?
- petercooper 16y agoThe same people who say "mouses" instead of "mice."
- wyclif 16y agoWhat happened is that she called the Atlanta police, who found no cause to charge him. End of story.
- follower 16y ago[Citation needed.]
- wyclif 16y agohttp://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/
- semanticist 16y agoI don't see anything in her blog post that supports what you've said. If it's in the comments you might want to quote it.
- maco 16y agoYes, it says she went to the police. Where does it say the police didn't care?
- wyclif 16y agoI didn't say the police didn't care, I said they didn't file charges. The difference is instructive.
- jdp23 16y agoHe hasn't tweeted since then... The Conference Anti-Harassment policy is one of the results of the incident.
- follower 16y agoWhile I'm pleased to see this article on HN, is it appropriate to use a "subscriber link" in a public forum like HN?
- lhnn 16y agoI do agree that people who enjoy the quality of LWN.net should pay the $7 monthly fee. For Linux/FOSS hobbyists, it is a good online periodical. I speak as a once and future subscriber.
- rythie 16y agoI would be surprised if a link on the frontpage of HN didn't lead to more subscriptions - but I could be wrong.
- hvs 16y agoThey got me to subscribe precisely because every link I've ever followed to there from HN has been a well-written, engaging article.
- unwind 16y agoYes, that is exactly the purpose of LWN's subscriber links. It lets subscribers share content with non-subscribers in a "controlled" manner, which I guess means LWN can track usage and so on. I think it's awesome; thanks for sharing, rythie. See their FAQ: http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks.
- follower 16y agoI guess I should have RTFF. :) "Where is it appropriate to post a subscriber link? Almost anywhere. Private mail, messages to project mailing lists, and weblog entries are all appropriate. As long as people do not use subscriber links as a way to defeat our attempts to gain subscribers, we are happy to see them shared." Thanks for pointing that out.
- JoachimSchipper 16y agoIt's apparently pretty common - you can also find them on e.g. reddit. I don't think they'd mind, or they could just limit to, say, 100 clicks.
- btilly 16y agoAh, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.
- kahawe 16y agoWith all due respect, someone should also tell ESR that he's not God's gift to geeks, hackers, free/open software/source, the internet or computers in general.
- robg 16y agoA small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion. Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debugged. It makes me think of pg's nerd essay and with having just found the fantastic TV show Freaks and Geeks. Sexual socialization ripens when we're most vulnerable. If those hurts are carried into adulthood by otherwise successful people, we need to work as a community to help our friends and colleagues along. EDIT: For a more positive final note.
- kahawe 16y agoI agree with you. It should be much more accepted and encouraged to seek therapy or coaching when suffering from a strong lack of social skills, being very lonely or even from social anxiety or depressions. Nobody should have to carry those hurt feelings around all the time - this would also contribute a little bit to a better world ultimately.
- robg 16y agoTherapy will always seem extreme even as clinical anxiety disorders affect 40 million Americans. That's why less than 2 million of those will get adequate treatment. Guys, be good friends and ask for advice. Talk about dating and your difficulties. Your friends in relationships can really help. Just avoid the guys who speak badly of women. They're also a big part of the problem.
- geedee77 16y agoI think this is a good article and a great reminder to us all about the underside to the world. I do want to say, though, that the 'men' (and they are only described as such due to their gender) in this story are a very small minority that you would find in any group of people. I'm not so naive to say that sexism doesn't exist in our industry, because it clearly does, but I would say that the vast majority of people would neither encourage or stand for any sort of sexism, whether overt or not. I think it is tempting to create a link between the stereotypical 'geek' - who is a guy that lives in his mom's basement and never meets women - and the sort of overt sexism and abuse as described in this article, but that is dangerous. That stereotype no longer exists, if it ever did, and there will always be men, from whatever industry or walk of life, who view women as objects and not equals. We need to work on this attitude in every walk of life, not just in the tech world.
- ErrantX 16y agoIndeed. In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to pull of these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair one). But because the industry is so female light a (relatively speaking) large proportion of the women in it have been propositioned or assaulted by the more forward members of the group.
- follower 16y ago> In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to pull of these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair one). But if the people at these conferences aren't "stereotypical geeks" then who are they?
- lhnn 16y agoI get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field. Yes, ladies, you will be hit on a lot at a conference filled with mostly guys. You are an attractive minority. Now, to the point: --- There is no excuse for physical assault. I can even almost excuse a guy going in for a peck, but grab-ass and worse are not cool. If you're going to proposition a girl, do it with your wits and your words, not a firm, open palmed slap on the behind. On behalf of all young, healthy, mate-seeking males, I apologize for the few who make us all out to be classless jerks. --- Of course, it can be argued that you shouldn't be looking to hook up at a FOSS conference, but really... when ISN'T a single guy looking for a woman with similar interests (inside and outside the bedroom)? This isn't a 'geek' problem, it's a 'human' problem.
- cturner 16y agoIt's interesting that you agree with the points, but put your tiredness down to the complaints of the affected women. Of the things on offer, that's an odd thing to put your frustration down to. I think it would be better to be tired of the guys who act like jerks and ruin things for everyone else.
- Tichy 16y agoI wonder how many guys are being enlightened by reading this thread on HN right now. My guess would be zero.
- Benjo 16y agoMarginal effects count. We don't have to cause an epiphany; making everyone slightly more aware of the problem is useful too.
- lhnn 16y agoI was commenting as much on the recent deluge of 'sexism in tech is rampant' threads on HN as I was commenting on the article. I was emphasizing that even as someone now jaded by such complaints, I find this to be a valid article. I also comment on how inappropriate groping a woman is; I would consider my entire 3rd and 4th lines to be expressing frustration at immature male actions. I consider all sides of an argument, and for that, I will not apologize.
- Yaggo 16y agoWow, I'm truly shocked. I mean, it's 2010. Apparently there are minority of people how can't behave and ruin the reputation of the whole community. > Later someone was caught taking up-skirt photos of my friend's partner. Would be interesting to know if he was kicked out of the conference, and whether the harassment cases were reported to authorities / organizers.
- nkassis 16y agoYeah I had the same reaction. Someone doing that should be reported to the police.That's just plain wrong.
- seanc 16y agoI couldn't get over how powerful the message was when presented in clear technical language. By articulating the problem in a simple factual manner and offering specific concrete solutions, some of which are already under way, she makes it impossible to dismiss her concerns. The medium is the message I suppose. I wonder if this style, applied to this issue, is powerful only for technical people, or it it would be equally compelling to other groups.
- sp332 16y agoI found this SO much more helpful than other essays and blog posts on harassment I have seen lately (and I've been looking around a lot). I think we can relate to this better because we share some mental and social structures with the writer. Its a lot easier to relate to her though patterns, and the suggestions seem both desirable and realistic. I doubt other groups would find this so compelling, because a lot of intelligent, engaged, perceptive people have been writing about this for a long time and I've never seen something like this from a non-technical writer.
- logic 16y agoAgreed completely. The articles relating to Noirin Shirley's recent post were clearly polarized: participants "picked a side" that agreed with the biases they brought to the table, and not much in the way of useful discussion actually seemed to happen. On the other hand, this article is much more useful: a compelling description of the problem and examination of what isn't working, followed by a clear call-to-action on what they suggest be done (in this case, adopting a minimal anti-harassment policy). More like this, please.
- JonnieCache 16y agoThe thing that shocks me is that people seem to describe so many of these incidents, yet they just seem to have passed by with little fallout. At least none was described in the article. In most circles of independent minded, proactive people (like those in the OSS scene) that I have moved in, such blatant acts of sexual assault would lead to a massive commotion, probably violence. How can you walk up behind a stranger in a public place full of your peers, grab them on the ass and proposition them for sex without getting something broken over your head, or at the very least being shouted and screamed at? Sounds like people need to be more willing to stand up for themselves and their friends, to more clearly establish group norms of what is and isnt acceptable. Articles like this are very depressing to me as a young idealistic developer who sees the open source world as a progressive and egalitarian model for how to live our lives.
- Tichy 16y ago"without getting something broken over your head" What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to teach a jerk a lesson? As for less drastic responses, I agree that the best way to enlighten people would probably be when caught in the act. It seems unlikely that "photograph upskirt guy" is reading this article and just now it dawns on him "maybe I shouldn't have been doing that".
- JonnieCache 16y agoI'm not advocating breaking things over peoples heads. I'm saying that I'm shocked that the heads of said upskirt photographers havent been used to break anything yet. It shows a level of restraint that is certainly morally commendable, whether it has benefitted the community long term I am not so sure. > What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to teach a jerk a lesson? What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to be on the other side of a street? Your question is tautological.
- Tichy 16y agoCracking a bottle over someones head could escalate (and land you in jail anyway).
- theophani 16y agoI've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something similar to a man at a needlepoint conference. Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing inappropriate. I've also gotten "Let's be friends!" attention from people, including other women. In other words, we are there to meet people who share our interests, on a social as well as professional level.
- follower 16y ago> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well.
- semanticist 16y agoI've seen some responses to women in our community that were bordering on sycophantic - and slightly creepy. I think sometimes in an attempt to be enthusiastic about women attending events, it can go a bit too far. Tokenism and othering as, in the long term, just as damaging to gender relations.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago>FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. >And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well. I think I'd prefer to have people pay attention to me for a particular characteristic if that meant that you could then demonstrate you're more than just that characteristic once interacting. I'm dad to an 18month old. We use a sling rather than a buggy. No one ever holds a door for me or steps aside, stepping into the road with a baby because jerks won't let you past on the pavement ... anyway, I'm coming to a point here somewhere ... I've been to a few meetings where I'm the only man and I just get ignored. I find group social situations pretty hard anyway but I only get included if I break the ice and usually the only interaction I get is scowls for playing with their kids. I think I'm ranting, hang on, yup ranting, I'll just sit over here.
- masterponomo 16y agoI'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.
- follower 16y ago> but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If this is the case, why do these incidents keep happening? I guess it comes back to the cliched "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good [people] do nothing". And having a stated policy in place is a pro-active way to demonstrate "Hey, in case you were wondering, this kind of behaviour's not okay and this is how we'll deal with it".
- robg 16y agoIf this is the case, why do these incidents keep happening? Because as a culture we don't know how to talk about these things - when they happen and when we see and hear about them. And when TV shows - like Freaks and Geeks - come along and try, they're canceled after one season.
- blasdel 16y agoExcept that the way the typical renfaire-attending dork interprets 'chivalry' is obnoxious in its own right
- masterponomo 16y agoTrue. The written no-harassment policy should also address such things as hand-kissing of maidens after rescuing them.
- sliverstorm 16y agoWhat a shame. It could've be good for a laugh to set everyone at ease again! Though, you'd have to be pretty smooth to pull that off.
- magamiako 16y agoI have issue with what this woman is classifying as "harassment". Let's be clear here: Harassment is not sexual attention from men you don't want it from. Harassment is unwanted sexual attention--period. And I think that's the clear difference here. Replace $Ugly_Computer_Nerd with $Hot_Rich_Wellknown_Guy and that changes harassment to "harmless flirting". I'm sorry to be this stereotypical, but it's the truth. It's something I deal with a lot, it's something I argue with internally a lot. There are things I see "attractive" guys do that I would never consider doing with a woman because I fear that the behavior will be treated as sexual harassment or assault, and that's the last thing I want to be attached to. Needless to say, I'm also very single for that matter. But nonetheless, I sit in the sidelines at various places and have been around enough people to know. So once we have established a guideline of what is truly something worth applying to everyone regardless of personal attractiveness, then we can have a real discussion on harassment. For that matter, much of what is said here goes on all of the time in almost every public setting. You just might not be the center of attention of it because in other social contexts there is an abundance of other women. "I was at a conference where a man mistook my friendliness and technical interest as sexual attraction to him." This is not anything out of the ordinary as far as I can tell. If you randomly walked up to some guy in a bar and spoke to him, he's going to instantly start thinking you're interested in him. It doesn't matter the topic, he's going to assume that. I challenge you to find anyone else. The only time it wouldn't be construed as interest or flirting is if there are external forces requiring you to speak to each other. So let's get this straight: In defense of computer nerds, a lot of men like women. The idea of being portrayed as a sex object is nothing specific to computer nerd conventions. This occurs at all ages. You sit here and complain about women being scantily clad at a computer event, but probably let your little kids watch all of the Disney women that grew up and turned into completely crazy psycho whores. It's okay for a cheerleader to wear next to nothing at a football event, but not okay for a woman to wear similar clothing at a computer event? It's okay for a man to construe talking with you in a bar as flirting but it's not okay for a man to assume the same at another event? I'm not sticking up for harassment, but we need some very clear definitions of what is or isn't appropriate. Time and place should not matter neither should it matter on attractiveness. If a "hot guy" smacks your ass and an "ugly guy" smacks your ass, both should be considered harassment. Otherwise it's discrimination.
- rb2k_ 16y agoWhat annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post](http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other boys at the party. Way to be professional...
- robg 16y agoFlirting isn't professional when it's at an after hours party? How else should one signal that they're available and interested?
- JoachimSchipper 16y agoSignalling such things is, in fact, not professional. Of course, neither are most after-hours parties...
- robg 16y agoBy definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. If women can't flirt in those environs, we're doomed as a species. Unless you want to go trolling at dance clubs?
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago> By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. Definitely. Were you under the impression that I was saying otherwise?
- jedbrown 16y agoShe's married, I don't think her flirting was intended as a sign of availability.
- rmc 16y agoA lot of complaints about sexism in FLOSS conference mainly refer to sexual references, or (semi-)pornography. If you want to have a professional conference, then yes you should have a 'no sex' policy. However, are women really that anti-sex?
- follower 16y agoIn short, no. You might be interested in reading: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sex_is_beautiful http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sex_is_beautiful Also, don't assume that it's only women who object to sexual content in technical contexts.
- rmc 16y agoI read that article. It seems quite biased against the 'sex is beautiful' idea.
- timelinex 16y agoAs a general rule: Don't shit where you eat. Some of the incident she describe are legit sexual harassment and others are a male trying to pick up a lady. Don't do that ever where you work or have important business to attend[your technique maybe lacking]. I Genuinely think this is not really a Geek problem. There is statistically large number of people with sexual deviation. For instance, it is estimated that between 3-9% of the population are Pedophiles[1]. At a conference with about 100 people there maybe 3 persons there with a sexual deviation. But it only takes one of those guys to approach all the women in the conference and spoil the whole thing for all of us. My suggestion is if ever you were to encounter a situation of sexual assault report it immediately to the police[not the conference organizer]. I don't want that guy who hits ladies on the bum to be walking around freely in society. He would not be operating at Conferences alone. As a side note to how important it's to report these things:"nonincestuous pedophiles who molest boys had committed an average of 282 offenses against 150 victims"[1]. As I said previously, just one deviant can crash the party for a whole lot of people. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child_molestation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child...
- brazzy 16y agoNone of the incidents described carry any hint of sexual deviancy. The worst of them are "just" cases of someone making unwanted sexual advances - being (way) too quick to go beyond flirting and too slow to back off. This can be due to a lack of respect for women in general, but also due to a mix of social ineptness and sheer desparation. And you can't tell me the latter is not statistically more likely to occur in geeks.
- timelinex 16y agoI think the my first paragraph pointed that out that there are two types of things happening here. One guys aren't aware that they over steps some bounds. But putting your hand down a females underwear and hitting someone's bum unexpectedly. Normal people don't do that.
- benatkin 16y agoI think it's partly a problem with organizers not paying enough attention to the community aspect of conferences. There are talks and there's sometimes lunch, but a lot of socializing happens too. I think it works better when organizers plan after-conference events or talk with those planning them and make sure they know what's going on and that responsible people will be there the whole time. People who are going with the flow of a conference often want to stay up and hang out until 10 or 11 and meet people, and it's not difficult to organize or get local companies to organize events that go that late, like hack fests. People who decide to stay up later, well, at that point they're not going with the flow of the conference. Hopefully they know what they're doing. And if they don't, and something bad happens, of course the offender should be blamed. I just don't think having to wing it should be a normal part of a conference experience. Edit: I realized that I've only been to small (<500) conferences. It still seems like bigger conferences could have evening events, but they might be trickier to plan. Perhaps having a few evening events that are announced and that the organizers can vouch for would be a solution. Also I don't think it's all-or-nothing; the more well-organized activities there are that fill up the evenings, the less chance of something bad happening at a poorly-organized evening activity.
- robryan 16y agoAn interesting question would be if those men which did the wrong thing were regulars to these conferences or new to the scene? From similar things I have been to I just couldn't imagine a community in which the core regulars would have anyone doing these kinds of things.
- maco 16y agoI'm Mackenzie in the article. The guy who made the comment about why someone else was agreeing with me...he wasn't new. I don't know about the guy who grabbed/kissed me. Going a little broader in the tech field... I know of some people in the hacking/security community who are...well, when you're new to the scene, you're warned about them. I can only think of one guy I was warned about, but he's well known. I can think of two others I was told new guys to the scene (particularly if fairly young) should be warned about, and those two are around-since-phreaking-days levels of established and well known. Being icky doesn't mean ostracism.
- vaurora 16y agoHave you met any of the "core regulars" in the Linux community? The short answer is that the people who do these things include both regulars and newbies. I have personally been groped or fondled by two "core regulars."
- gyardley 16y agoThe gender imbalance at open source conferences means that the small proportion of men throughout society that harass women have a much smaller pool of targets to choose from. The result - while open-source conferences might have the same amount of harassment per male attendee as any other conference, the percentage of female attendees affected by it is much higher. This creates dramatically different perceptions. As a male, I haven't seen any more sexual harassment at tech conferences than I have at academic conferences on Russian history, so it doesn't feel like there's much of a problem. But from the female perspective, the situation looks like an epidemic. I have no solution to this unfortunate situation. Perhaps open source conferences should ban alcohol, so everyone can stay properly inhibited. This hardly seems fair to those of us who enjoy having a beer and can do it without molesting others, but a minor inconvenience to the majority is usually acceptable when it prevents a devastating experience for a minority.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago>so everyone can stay properly inhibited I've not had a lot of contact with the autistic (or those with other mental health issues) but lacking proper social inhibitions has come up. If I were a psychologist I think that a FOSS conference would be very interesting. Not that we're all freaks though ... nor indeed that this excuses uninhibited behaviours (and certainly not sexual assault).
- jdp23 16y agoExcellent point! Guys confronting sexual harassers is a big part of the solution, and so is an anti-harassment policy is one good part of a solution. More women will come to conferences if it's not so likely they'll be harrassed.
- cosgroveb 16y agoOr perhaps instead of banning beer they should adopt non-harassment policies which are enforced and make sure that they respond to complaints swiftly? Beer doesn't make people creeps... Their personalities do.
- acangiano 16y agoA few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyone and above all report them to whoever appropriate. * It's important to remember that sexual harassment is not simple unwanted attention from someone you find unattractive. magamiako deleted his comment, but he was right on the money when he said that certain actions will be interpreted as innocuous flirting if the person perpetuating it is attractive, and as harassment if their are not. It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching. The latter must be eliminated from tech conferences. * Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations. The title reads "Eye candy is important": http://grab.by/grabs/bd8b294c0aa850b4b577012a258979a3.png http://grab.by/grabs/bd8b294c0aa850b4b577012a258979a3.png (Actual slides here: http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamericano-startup-in-italia-e-nel-mondo-1428557 http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamerica...). This was just after the "CouchDB performs like a porn star" scandal, and several women at the conference complimented me for pulling it off without objectifying anyone.
- idm 16y ago"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but there was a live IRC session running on the overhead, and each time a question was asked by a woman, IRC would be filled with lude and aggressively sexual remarks. It was totally uncomfortable! I think this situation qualifies as bona fide sexual harassment. Touching or groping someone in a sexual manner is assault (at least it can be in the US.) It's so far beyond mere harassment that it's not the point of the article... EDIT: for clarity...
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago>Cat says, "If I think an event organizer turns a blind eye to questionable behavior I'll pass on the event." I'm surprised that conference organisers would ignore sexual assault particularly with the bad press it must bring - assuming that these women are reporting the sexual assaults (someone fondling your genitals against your express will is pretty clearly sexual assault IMO). But then if the women assaulted choose not to report such things to the police (I think the onus lies with them as opposed to any witnesses) how can the conference organisers act? They can't assume an uncharged person is guilty, can they?
- calebgilbert 16y agoI guess the 180-degree alternative to "women being harrassed" is the the Drupal community, in which a small, but very vocal, women run around and use 'women being harrassed' as a sledgehammer to intimidate and enforce their own standards of values/behavior on anyone and everyone. No one seems to mourn that kind of harassment. Until they do, I remain suspect when I read titles like this. Based on experience I believe that as often as not someone just needs to call the wahmbulance and/or quit using their gender as a weapon of control. I will add as a side note, and I have no idea if it pertains to this particular article or not, but many (even most) of the women I have seen complaining about 'being harassed' in the Drupal community are openly lesbian. I could care less about someone's personal sexual choices in the bedroom, but it does raise more questions about what is going on with many of these 'harassment' complaints, at least in my mind. There is something dishonest to me about those who have sworn their life to not-include men, also simultaneously want to tell all the men exactly how they are allowed to act/speak/think. UPDATE: For the record I do acknowledge the very real possibly/problem of actual harassment. I do not wish my comments to diminish the seriousness of those cases. Just sharing my experience of seeing 'harassment' complaints being weaponized, and calling for some balance/sanity.
- mambodog 16y agoWait, so, because they're lesbians (so you say) it's not possible for them to be sexually harassed by men? I don't follow your train of thought.
- calebgilbert 16y agoIt's about any women (lesbians and non-lesbians alike) not actually being harassed, but rather just running around trying to enforce their own agenda on the world. My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them. I guess in the particular case of the particular lesbians I mentioned above - they seem to be looking/seeking to find something, anything, that they can hold up as harassment and persecute the shit out of someone. That's bullying in my book plain and simple. UPDATE: Maybe I'm ascribing too many personal motivations for their behavior - all I can say that many/most of loudest voices in the Drupal community regarding all things 'harassement' are lesbians. At the very least they have a hair trigger response and get set-off by comments that their straight counterparts do not.
- alexh 16y agoThis happens in a lot of organizations. One that I think is most relevant is CUSID( Canadian University Society for Intercollegiate Debate ) It was very much an organization which had a problem with women feeling pushed out, harassed, and uncomfortable. The result of that was that very few women were getting involved or staying involved. In 2001 they decided to do something about it. They had a long discussion, and implemented a very strict policy about offensive conduct. You can see it here http://www.cusid.ca/documents/official-documents/cusid-code-of-conduct-by-law/ http://www.cusid.ca/documents/official-documents/cusid-code-... The TL;DR; of it, is that every tournament is obligated to have an approachable "Equity Officer" as well as an anonymous way of submitting "Equity" complaints. These are comments on things that made someone uncomfortable, feel offended, or feel harassed. The equity officer then takes action, at their discretion, usually informing the offender that what they did was not cool, with no tangible punishment. Sometimes ignoring the complaint. Or in rare cases, taking drastic action against an individual. Having been at the receiving end of two complaints, they take this policy very seriously. There is a very vocal group that believes that the policy is harmful, because it is too restrictive. There is another group that feels it is necessary and should get stronger. It is a political debate, and the two groups keep each other in check, at the current level. The IMPORTANT result. In 2001, very few women were involved, particularly in upper levels of the community. This year, female involvement has risen to the point that fully half of the 32 finalists in the BP Nationals held two weeks ago, were female. There are still issues, and a new discussion is being had on refinements to the policy. The point is that confronting the problem head on, did a lot of good. Particularly the point of having a formal way to complain and have the offensive parties made aware of the inappropriateness of their actions, and hold them accountable.
- binspace 16y agoMy personal experience is that tech conferences tend to encourage cliquish and hierarchal (based on popularity and tech-sphere influence) behavior which feels dehumanizing. I think there is a common thread with my observation to sexual harassment at conferences. When people relate to each other on a human (rather than hierarchal level), people tend to respect each other more. edit Women also bring greater social cohesion to groups. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100930143339.htm?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4ca65e219f93ce34,0 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100930143339.ht... The fact that women are sexually harassed could be solved by having more women at conferences.
- viraptor 16y agoThere is an interesting part to some of those stories... kind of captured in some of those paragraphs. For example "If I go to CES in Vegas I go with the understanding that porn is part of the business of that conference". Many gamers' expos would have naked girls with game logos painted over them if they could get away with that. Also, have you lately been to a students' club? In some places (and not even of the lowest quality) kissing and proposing sex to people you barely know is pretty much a normal behaviour. (this happens from both genders) Now you have lots of people coming out of that environment and expect them to figure out by themselves that this is a different environment? Of course there will be someone who doesn't quite get it. It also doesn't help when in some environments women are ok with as much attention as they can get. I've seen a couple of IRC channels of open-source projects where there's a regular female user appearing there. Strictly no-offtopic channels suddenly switch to 2h "what's new in your life in any details you want" discussions between her and 10 random guys that includes innuendos every once in a while. Again - do you expect those people to figure out themselves that it's not the same environment? I really don't think this is a problem "of open source conferences". It might be something that manifests there more often than in other places.
- STHayden 16y agoI've always been saddened by some of the vitriol that has come up on hacker news when talking about women. But this seems like a pleasant conversation.