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Off topic - but your username and the vast majority of your commenting history is primarily on salaries. Curious - is there some backstory to it? Feel you got s

Off topic - but your username and the vast majority of your commenting history is primarily on salaries. Curious - is there some backstory to it? Feel you got severely underpaid? To each and his own, but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats - especially considering the vast majority just gem/npm/pip install this and that and glue all the code together. Of course the market deserves to pay accordingly but I think it's just a big bubble that's going to crash soon - since there is a huge mismatch between demand and supply of CRUD glue programmers (which most programmers are). My guess is that once Lambda School, Make School, ISAs all become mainstream and the pool of CRUD glue programmers matches the demand all salaries will come crashing down. I think overall it's a good thing for society in general (and especially the tech towns). ps: Pardon my tone. I work in the space industry. Maybe I have an axe to grind ;)

pro-duct 7y ago
The hard part of engineering isn't the ability to glue packages and microservices together. Those tasks are literally done by entry level, bottom of the totem pole engineers. You're saying that all bankers do is run models and spit out valuations, and all a chef does is put stuff in a pan. I'm not speaking toward your argument of a bubble bursting, but engineering isn't going anywhere. And where else would an entry level engineer start than at the bottom, npm installing the package that solves their problem? It's using these concepts every day that builds good engineers who think of tomorrow's solutions, and can architect it both technically and socially. That is the line between software development and computer science. Engineers paid under 120k that whine aren't doing anything beyond their immediate usefulness, i.e. 'just doing their jobs.' The engineers that get paid 300k are usually the ones running the show, and writing significantly less / no code.
- ubertaco 7y ago
  Consider the scaling factor for salaries; My salary is on the high end in my area, but would be on the low end of a living wage in the Bay Area. My salary is in the neighborhood of 120k; I'm a senior-level engineer with almost a decade of experience, involved in some of the high-level planning tasks you describe.
- scarface74 7y ago
  $300K to live on the west coast is really not that appealing to someone who is living in a major city, with the stereotypical house in the burbs in a good school system with 2.1 kids where on the higher end you can make $150K to $160K as an architect/team lead/principal. Especially if you are married with two incomes where you can easily put the lower income completely toward increasing net worth or cash flowing your kids college expenses. Engineers getting paid $300K could easily be the stereotypical r/cscareerquestions “learn LeetCode and work for a FAANG” type graduating from college.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    I think you are perhaps too focused on the immediate salary, and not thinking long-term. Yeah, $300k in the Bay Area isn’t that much. But if you work for a Tier 1/2 company for a few years, it can have a drastic impact on your future employment prospects and salary levels. Furthermore, the street cred can open many doors that otherwise would remain closed to you.
    - hello_moto 7y ago
      DING DING DING. I've seen quite a few people only focus on the $300k aspect in HackerNews (and made negative remarks) without thinking about the trajectory.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Anyone who is making $135K+ in any city that is not on the west coast or NYC, is probably 10 years into their career and may already have a family. In that case, they probably don’t want to make the sacrifices needed to go from making enough to live an upper middle class lifestyle - ie the nice house in the burbs to downgrading to a small apartment. In my case, I’m 45, why would I move to the west coast for $300K when I can just stay in $major_city and work for a consulting when my younger son graduates and can make $180K-200K+ and still have the same lifestyle? And then go back to being just a developer anytime I wanted to and still live comfortably?
salarycommenter 7y ago
This is an alt specifically for discussing compensation because I know it elicits that reaction and I don't want that associated with my professional identity. I think discussing compensation frankly and openly is very important. People have no idea what is possible. Two people on the same team at the same company can have wildly different compensation. My goal with this alt is to get people to take the biggest slice of the pie they can for themselves and avoid wasting their precious time doing lousy work for lousy money. I have wasted a lot of time and life opportunities working for less then what I am capable of getting. I wish my future self had been around to tell me to push harder and be more mindful and efficient with my time. I don't think CRUD glue programmers are at the top of the market right now. You could flood the market with them and it might not move compensation for people in my space. Even so, that is just another argument for pushing hard right now. Strike while the iron is hot. No one knows how long this will last.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  Any advice on learning your true worth? Assume for a minute that Glassdoor is useless, as the "salary range" it displays shows that the maximum is 2-2.5x the minimum.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    There is no "true worth" that you can look up on a website. Your salary is your cost in the labor market. And like any market, worth is determined by what people are willing to pay. Go out and interview, get some offer sand see who is willing to compete for you. That's how you get your true worth.
    - code_duck 7y ago
      Right, the entire point of the question is to find out what people are willing to pay.
  - z3t4 7y ago
    The only thing that matter is what they think you can get elsewhere. eg. what others are willing to pay. Think of it as an auction. Something might be worth $100 but if the highest bid is $10 you are only going to bid $15 not $100.
IggleSniggle 7y ago
I feel for people working in video games and in the space industry. Often they enter those industries because of passion, although I think in aerospace it's more common to stay for longer because you end up working with technologies that just don't apply well to most other industries (lots of DSLs that most businesses don't care about). As for CRUD glue...hard call about long term labor market. There's a lot of slip-shod working being done to hold up other slip-shod work. I think there's a good analogy in "unregulated construction." You can hire anybody off the street to build you a shed. If you have money to throw at it, though, you still might be willing to pay 15x to hire a well-vetted professional who will make something both beautiful and lasting.
hello_moto 7y ago
> but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats - especially considering the vast majority just gem/npm/pip install this and that and glue all the code together. Of course the market deserves to pay accordingly but I think it's just a big bubble that's going to crash soon - since there is a huge mismatch between demand and supply of CRUD glue programmers (which most programmers are). Seriously? Why the hate? 300k is Tier 1 (FAANG) and 2 companies. They don't just do CRUD. Those that do CRUD probably work on the SETI/Infra/Tooling division for the BigCos and even some of these "Tool-Devs" created amazing OSS tools. Do you suggest they should be treated as 2nd class citizens and get paid half of the "product" people and creating an old-time rift? I've seen a few Bootcampers that get a job in Tier 1 and 2 companies but they have "solid" background/previous experience (hardcore Math, Stats, Data Scientist switching to SWE, greybeard embedded software engineers), just not up to date skill set. This whole "salaries" will crash down demise has been around forever and it hasn't happened yet just like any other "demise" prediction. I'd suggest people not to hate the situation: our sector/field is getting paid serious money, why the envy/jealousy/negativity? Do you like the situation where hi-tech industry as a cutthroat, no-union, rampant ageism, low-paying wage? Think of the bigger picture here...
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  “This whole "salaries" will crash down demise has been around forever and it hasn't happened yet just like any other "demise" prediction” - agreed, lots of people can some problems the naive way but you need to be at a deeper level of understanding and experience to know what will and wont work before you build it
- aiisjustanif 7y ago
  Excuse me, but define a CRUD developer. I know what CRUD is but what exactly are they doing?
  - hello_moto 7y ago
    Building simple tools to assist the whole SDLC? Building web-app to map network/machines?
scarface74 7y ago
I would seriously have to think about giving up my lifestyle where I don’t make nearly $300K to move to the west coast and work for a FAANG. I like my short commute, good school systems, and my big affordable house in the burbs that would cost at least four times as much if we moved.
defen 7y ago
> To each and his own, but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats I think your entire attitude is wrong. Not in the sense of "you're being mean"; rather, in the sense of your orientation toward engineer pay. Any money that doesn't go to salary will generally go to the owners of the business. If engineers can get more, why shouldn't they? Imagine someone saying professional sports stars make too much money and should be perfectly happy to make $1 million per year. What you're actually arguing for is that even-richer people (the team owners) should make EVEN MORE money than they already do.
aiisjustanif 7y ago
Excuse me, but define a CRUD developer.
- fredsanford 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delet...

pro-duct 7y ago

The hard part of engineering isn't the ability to glue packages and microservices together. Those tasks are literally done by entry level, bottom of the totem pole engineers. You're saying that all bankers do is run models and spit out valuations, and all a chef does is put stuff in a pan. I'm not speaking toward your argument of a bubble bursting, but engineering isn't going anywhere. And where else would an entry level engineer start than at the bottom, npm installing the package that solves their problem? It's using these concepts every day that builds good engineers who think of tomorrow's solutions, and can architect it both technically and socially. That is the line between software development and computer science. Engineers paid under 120k that whine aren't doing anything beyond their immediate usefulness, i.e. 'just doing their jobs.' The engineers that get paid 300k are usually the ones running the show, and writing significantly less / no code.

ubertaco 7y ago
Consider the scaling factor for salaries; My salary is on the high end in my area, but would be on the low end of a living wage in the Bay Area. My salary is in the neighborhood of 120k; I'm a senior-level engineer with almost a decade of experience, involved in some of the high-level planning tasks you describe.
scarface74 7y ago
$300K to live on the west coast is really not that appealing to someone who is living in a major city, with the stereotypical house in the burbs in a good school system with 2.1 kids where on the higher end you can make $150K to $160K as an architect/team lead/principal. Especially if you are married with two incomes where you can easily put the lower income completely toward increasing net worth or cash flowing your kids college expenses. Engineers getting paid $300K could easily be the stereotypical r/cscareerquestions “learn LeetCode and work for a FAANG” type graduating from college.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  I think you are perhaps too focused on the immediate salary, and not thinking long-term. Yeah, $300k in the Bay Area isn’t that much. But if you work for a Tier 1/2 company for a few years, it can have a drastic impact on your future employment prospects and salary levels. Furthermore, the street cred can open many doors that otherwise would remain closed to you.
  - hello_moto 7y ago
    DING DING DING. I've seen quite a few people only focus on the $300k aspect in HackerNews (and made negative remarks) without thinking about the trajectory.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Anyone who is making $135K+ in any city that is not on the west coast or NYC, is probably 10 years into their career and may already have a family. In that case, they probably don’t want to make the sacrifices needed to go from making enough to live an upper middle class lifestyle - ie the nice house in the burbs to downgrading to a small apartment. In my case, I’m 45, why would I move to the west coast for $300K when I can just stay in $major_city and work for a consulting when my younger son graduates and can make $180K-200K+ and still have the same lifestyle? And then go back to being just a developer anytime I wanted to and still live comfortably?

salarycommenter 7y ago

This is an alt specifically for discussing compensation because I know it elicits that reaction and I don't want that associated with my professional identity. I think discussing compensation frankly and openly is very important. People have no idea what is possible. Two people on the same team at the same company can have wildly different compensation. My goal with this alt is to get people to take the biggest slice of the pie they can for themselves and avoid wasting their precious time doing lousy work for lousy money. I have wasted a lot of time and life opportunities working for less then what I am capable of getting. I wish my future self had been around to tell me to push harder and be more mindful and efficient with my time. I don't think CRUD glue programmers are at the top of the market right now. You could flood the market with them and it might not move compensation for people in my space. Even so, that is just another argument for pushing hard right now. Strike while the iron is hot. No one knows how long this will last.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
Any advice on learning your true worth? Assume for a minute that Glassdoor is useless, as the "salary range" it displays shows that the maximum is 2-2.5x the minimum.
- manfredo 7y ago
  There is no "true worth" that you can look up on a website. Your salary is your cost in the labor market. And like any market, worth is determined by what people are willing to pay. Go out and interview, get some offer sand see who is willing to compete for you. That's how you get your true worth.
  - code_duck 7y ago
    Right, the entire point of the question is to find out what people are willing to pay.
- z3t4 7y ago
  The only thing that matter is what they think you can get elsewhere. eg. what others are willing to pay. Think of it as an auction. Something might be worth $100 but if the highest bid is $10 you are only going to bid $15 not $100.

IggleSniggle 7y ago

I feel for people working in video games and in the space industry. Often they enter those industries because of passion, although I think in aerospace it's more common to stay for longer because you end up working with technologies that just don't apply well to most other industries (lots of DSLs that most businesses don't care about). As for CRUD glue...hard call about long term labor market. There's a lot of slip-shod working being done to hold up other slip-shod work. I think there's a good analogy in "unregulated construction." You can hire anybody off the street to build you a shed. If you have money to throw at it, though, you still might be willing to pay 15x to hire a well-vetted professional who will make something both beautiful and lasting.

hello_moto 7y ago

> but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats - especially considering the vast majority just gem/npm/pip install this and that and glue all the code together. Of course the market deserves to pay accordingly but I think it's just a big bubble that's going to crash soon - since there is a huge mismatch between demand and supply of CRUD glue programmers (which most programmers are). Seriously? Why the hate? 300k is Tier 1 (FAANG) and 2 companies. They don't just do CRUD. Those that do CRUD probably work on the SETI/Infra/Tooling division for the BigCos and even some of these "Tool-Devs" created amazing OSS tools. Do you suggest they should be treated as 2nd class citizens and get paid half of the "product" people and creating an old-time rift? I've seen a few Bootcampers that get a job in Tier 1 and 2 companies but they have "solid" background/previous experience (hardcore Math, Stats, Data Scientist switching to SWE, greybeard embedded software engineers), just not up to date skill set. This whole "salaries" will crash down demise has been around forever and it hasn't happened yet just like any other "demise" prediction. I'd suggest people not to hate the situation: our sector/field is getting paid serious money, why the envy/jealousy/negativity? Do you like the situation where hi-tech industry as a cutthroat, no-union, rampant ageism, low-paying wage? Think of the bigger picture here...

blackflame7000 7y ago
“This whole "salaries" will crash down demise has been around forever and it hasn't happened yet just like any other "demise" prediction” - agreed, lots of people can some problems the naive way but you need to be at a deeper level of understanding and experience to know what will and wont work before you build it
aiisjustanif 7y ago
Excuse me, but define a CRUD developer. I know what CRUD is but what exactly are they doing?
- hello_moto 7y ago
  Building simple tools to assist the whole SDLC? Building web-app to map network/machines?

scarface74 7y ago

I would seriously have to think about giving up my lifestyle where I don’t make nearly $300K to move to the west coast and work for a FAANG. I like my short commute, good school systems, and my big affordable house in the burbs that would cost at least four times as much if we moved.

defen 7y ago

> To each and his own, but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats I think your entire attitude is wrong. Not in the sense of "you're being mean"; rather, in the sense of your orientation toward engineer pay. Any money that doesn't go to salary will generally go to the owners of the business. If engineers can get more, why shouldn't they? Imagine someone saying professional sports stars make too much money and should be perfectly happy to make $1 million per year. What you're actually arguing for is that even-richer people (the team owners) should make EVEN MORE money than they already do.

aiisjustanif 7y ago

Excuse me, but define a CRUD developer.

fredsanford 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delet...