7 ms·

Alibaba founder defends overtime work culture as 'huge blessing'

60 points by SolaceQuantum 8y ago

ilamont 8y ago
“I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” he said in remarks posted on the company’s WeChat account. “Many companies and many people don’t have the opportunity to work 996,” Ma said. “If you don’t work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996?” 9am to 9pm, six days a week.
- strikelaserclaw 8y ago
  how else can you make your overlords richer?
wwwdonohue 8y ago
“Let me ask everyone, if you don’t put out more time and energy than others, how can you achieve the success you want?” To be fair, Ma worked 996 when he started his own company, which is different from being forced to do so because you can't find a developer job that doesn't require you to work 996.
- suby 8y ago
  Ma did so knowing the potential upside was becoming a billionaire. How many of these workers can say that?
- captainbland 8y ago
  Agreed. This kind of unadulterated competition is a race to the bottom for their employees. Nevermind that it's almost certainly counter-productive and that they'll just be pushing a bunch of already burned-out employees who'll inevitably be making tired mistakes and developing outright resentment for their paymasters.
kevin_b_er 8y ago
I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work. Why? It makes him more money. It does not forward the aspirations of the workers, it just becomes a race to the bottom that the workers lose on. This is good for the already rich, because it makes them richer. This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer. In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  > I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work. These days you'd actually except billionaires to go on a virtue signaling tour on how they're paying too little taxes and how capitalism failed the little man, e.g. like Warren Buffer or Ray Dalio. > Why? It makes him more money. It actually doesn't, good old capitalist Henry Ford already knew that 40 hours are about the optimum in terms of worker productivity. Everything else is a waste of time (and therefore money). > This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer. Jack Ma came from nothing and worked very hard to get where he is. He really believes in hard work paying off - what else is he supposed to believe? Also, in a country with a billion people clamoring for a good job, worker competition is cut-throat. It has nothing to do with "rich people" trying to squeeze the workers like lemons. The lemons are squeezing themselves. > In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else. Nope, that's just the "evil rich guy" narrative that your psyche desperately wants to see confirmed.
rfwhyte 8y ago
It is indeed a "huge blessing." A "huge blessing" for the owners of companies who are able to use "culture" as an excuse for the exploitation of workers. The upside of this exploitation only ever accrues to owners, never to employees, and the vast majority of employees, even in tech / startups, don't own any equity in the companies they work for, so there's really no excuse for this kind of nonsense to be taken seriously.
alibabaeatsaas 8y ago
> If you join Alibaba, you should get ready to work 12 hours a day, otherwise why do you come to AlibabA? Wow. Sounds like a greedy capitalist. I would understand 995 if workers were properly compensated. But 996 is almost inhumane. It stuck me as the same tone as when Jeff Bezos defended Amazons work culture. I guess e-commerce must work with very thin margins. The only person that should be working 996 are the founders. Everyone else should not be expected to work on the weekends.
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  “If you join (company) you should get ready to work at 30% discount, to sacrifice health, family and romantic relationships so that I can get richer. Otherwise why would you come to (company)?”
zeroc8 8y ago
Do not listen to this P.O.S. The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Our chinese coworkers hate 996 as much as anybody, but social pressure keeps them in the rat race. This is totally crazy, sick and stupid.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  I can only agree. Good companies here are based on work/private life. There will always be some others, but you won't be judged by doing "only" your hours, but the value you bring to the company in that time.
- lazyjones 8y ago
  > The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Paradise for the unproductive and unambitious, yes. That's why Europe is no longer innovative and competitive and China is doing much better.
  - Daishiman 8y ago
    I don't see the Chinese having vacations, great houses, breathing good air and eating quality food. Woe unto them.
    - lazyjones 8y ago
      Then you are blind or ignorant. Visit any European capital these days to find large flocks of Chinese tourists enjoying their expensive vacations, shopping tours and gadgets.
      - alanpetrel 8y ago
        Not to mention throwing litter and spitting on the street, vile people.
        dang 8y ago
exabrial 8y ago
I can assure you one must look busy, but actually being busy is a whole different matter. It's simply a matter showing hours in front of your boss and their boss, not showing accomplishments. Worse off, if you do work efficiently, accomplish your tasks, and leave at 5pm, you will lose respect amongst your peers and boss. Source: I worked for Alibaba.
- skinnymuch 8y ago
  Not being able to leave if you work well and are done by 5 sucks no matter what. But can you do other things especially in the last 1/3 of the day when I assume people will be more tired? Or if you’re not really working, is your only real option to just lose that time entirely?
FreedomToCreate 8y ago
Can someone explain to me how it is a blessing to work 996. He literally says "If you don't work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996". This makes no sense at all. Why would anyone ever want to work 996. Lets burn our youth on this BS for what future promise Mr.Ma.
- downrightmike 8y ago
  It is a blessing to Ma only.
- duxup 8y ago
  I'm also guessing he means if you are older .... probably can't work for him.
- forkLding 8y ago
  Its because Jack Ma still sees his company as it was in the startup days where the objective was out-competing anybody (even Western tech companies) through creativity, brutal price-cutting and sheer mental and time overload. These are qualities he attributes to people in their youth who can burn the midnight oil for their dream. It is also built on top of East Asian exploitative/"hard-work brings success" work culture.
  - rqs 8y ago
    In China, some employers (who probably still living in 17 century) sees giving out offer and salary is some kind of blessing. So apparently Jack Ma sees his company as some holy saint who give those poor farmland programmers food, water and life.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rongenre 8y ago
Apparently the best hires at Alibaba are blessed with the inability to do arithmetic.
edmundsauto 8y ago
I'm guessing he doesn't accept the research on information workers and hours, nor read Deep Work. These kinds of hours will lead to lower overall production and increased errors, if there's any cognition behind what is happening.
alanpetrel 8y ago
Sounds exactly like Japan, when will these people learn that tired workers are unproductive and error prone workers? One thing that really guts me about Brexit is that if the Tories get their way then 996 will become the norm here too.
JohnFen 8y ago
When I've started my own businesses, I worked 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Ma is a slacker by comparison! But there's no way I'd be willing to devote my every waking minute to someone else's business. So I guess that makes me the slacker...
rqs 8y ago
"I regret that I working so hard, spending so little time with my family" - Jack Ma, 2017 I guess this man only cares about he's own little family.
mx06v 8y ago
Funny, Jack Ma also said “Don't want to die in office, I'd rather die on beach”. http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/ http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/
JudasGoat 8y ago
As a member of CCP, I don't know how free Mr Ma would be to critique something like 996. Is 996 a Party endorced idea?

60 points by SolaceQuantum 8y ago

“I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” he said in remarks posted on the company’s WeChat account. “Many companies and many people don’t have the opportunity to work 996,” Ma said. “If you don’t work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996?” 9am to 9pm, six days a week.

strikelaserclaw 8y ago
how else can you make your overlords richer?

wwwdonohue 8y ago

“Let me ask everyone, if you don’t put out more time and energy than others, how can you achieve the success you want?” To be fair, Ma worked 996 when he started his own company, which is different from being forced to do so because you can't find a developer job that doesn't require you to work 996.

suby 8y ago
Ma did so knowing the potential upside was becoming a billionaire. How many of these workers can say that?
captainbland 8y ago
Agreed. This kind of unadulterated competition is a race to the bottom for their employees. Nevermind that it's almost certainly counter-productive and that they'll just be pushing a bunch of already burned-out employees who'll inevitably be making tired mistakes and developing outright resentment for their paymasters.

kevin_b_er 8y ago

I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work. Why? It makes him more money. It does not forward the aspirations of the workers, it just becomes a race to the bottom that the workers lose on. This is good for the already rich, because it makes them richer. This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer. In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.

gridlockd 8y ago
> I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work. These days you'd actually except billionaires to go on a virtue signaling tour on how they're paying too little taxes and how capitalism failed the little man, e.g. like Warren Buffer or Ray Dalio. > Why? It makes him more money. It actually doesn't, good old capitalist Henry Ford already knew that 40 hours are about the optimum in terms of worker productivity. Everything else is a waste of time (and therefore money). > This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer. Jack Ma came from nothing and worked very hard to get where he is. He really believes in hard work paying off - what else is he supposed to believe? Also, in a country with a billion people clamoring for a good job, worker competition is cut-throat. It has nothing to do with "rich people" trying to squeeze the workers like lemons. The lemons are squeezing themselves. > In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else. Nope, that's just the "evil rich guy" narrative that your psyche desperately wants to see confirmed.

rfwhyte 8y ago

It is indeed a "huge blessing." A "huge blessing" for the owners of companies who are able to use "culture" as an excuse for the exploitation of workers. The upside of this exploitation only ever accrues to owners, never to employees, and the vast majority of employees, even in tech / startups, don't own any equity in the companies they work for, so there's really no excuse for this kind of nonsense to be taken seriously.

alibabaeatsaas 8y ago

> If you join Alibaba, you should get ready to work 12 hours a day, otherwise why do you come to AlibabA? Wow. Sounds like a greedy capitalist. I would understand 995 if workers were properly compensated. But 996 is almost inhumane. It stuck me as the same tone as when Jeff Bezos defended Amazons work culture. I guess e-commerce must work with very thin margins. The only person that should be working 996 are the founders. Everyone else should not be expected to work on the weekends.

andrei_says_ 8y ago
“If you join (company) you should get ready to work at 30% discount, to sacrifice health, family and romantic relationships so that I can get richer. Otherwise why would you come to (company)?”

zeroc8 8y ago

Do not listen to this P.O.S. The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Our chinese coworkers hate 996 as much as anybody, but social pressure keeps them in the rat race. This is totally crazy, sick and stupid.

NicoJuicy 8y ago
I can only agree. Good companies here are based on work/private life. There will always be some others, but you won't be judged by doing "only" your hours, but the value you bring to the company in that time.
lazyjones 8y ago
> The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Paradise for the unproductive and unambitious, yes. That's why Europe is no longer innovative and competitive and China is doing much better.
- Daishiman 8y ago
  I don't see the Chinese having vacations, great houses, breathing good air and eating quality food. Woe unto them.
  - lazyjones 8y ago
    Then you are blind or ignorant. Visit any European capital these days to find large flocks of Chinese tourists enjoying their expensive vacations, shopping tours and gadgets.
    - alanpetrel 8y ago
      Not to mention throwing litter and spitting on the street, vile people.
      - dang 8y ago

exabrial 8y ago

I can assure you one must look busy, but actually being busy is a whole different matter. It's simply a matter showing hours in front of your boss and their boss, not showing accomplishments. Worse off, if you do work efficiently, accomplish your tasks, and leave at 5pm, you will lose respect amongst your peers and boss. Source: I worked for Alibaba.

skinnymuch 8y ago
Not being able to leave if you work well and are done by 5 sucks no matter what. But can you do other things especially in the last 1/3 of the day when I assume people will be more tired? Or if you’re not really working, is your only real option to just lose that time entirely?

FreedomToCreate 8y ago

Can someone explain to me how it is a blessing to work 996. He literally says "If you don't work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996". This makes no sense at all. Why would anyone ever want to work 996. Lets burn our youth on this BS for what future promise Mr.Ma.

downrightmike 8y ago
It is a blessing to Ma only.
duxup 8y ago
I'm also guessing he means if you are older .... probably can't work for him.
forkLding 8y ago
Its because Jack Ma still sees his company as it was in the startup days where the objective was out-competing anybody (even Western tech companies) through creativity, brutal price-cutting and sheer mental and time overload. These are qualities he attributes to people in their youth who can burn the midnight oil for their dream. It is also built on top of East Asian exploitative/"hard-work brings success" work culture.
- rqs 8y ago
  In China, some employers (who probably still living in 17 century) sees giving out offer and salary is some kind of blessing. So apparently Jack Ma sees his company as some holy saint who give those poor farmland programmers food, water and life.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rongenre 8y ago

Apparently the best hires at Alibaba are blessed with the inability to do arithmetic.

edmundsauto 8y ago

I'm guessing he doesn't accept the research on information workers and hours, nor read Deep Work. These kinds of hours will lead to lower overall production and increased errors, if there's any cognition behind what is happening.

alanpetrel 8y ago

Sounds exactly like Japan, when will these people learn that tired workers are unproductive and error prone workers? One thing that really guts me about Brexit is that if the Tories get their way then 996 will become the norm here too.

JohnFen 8y ago

When I've started my own businesses, I worked 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Ma is a slacker by comparison! But there's no way I'd be willing to devote my every waking minute to someone else's business. So I guess that makes me the slacker...

rqs 8y ago

"I regret that I working so hard, spending so little time with my family" - Jack Ma, 2017 I guess this man only cares about he's own little family.

mx06v 8y ago

Funny, Jack Ma also said “Don't want to die in office, I'd rather die on beach”. http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/ http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/

JudasGoat 8y ago

As a member of CCP, I don't know how free Mr Ma would be to critique something like 996. Is 996 a Party endorced idea?