6 ms·

What prevents you from taking a man as a role model?

raphman 7y ago
A 'role model' is someone who shares your background and is successful in an area of interest where you would like to participate/contribute (science, art, sports, politics, ...) . It's someone who demonstrates that 'someone like you' can be successful, too. Therefore, the closer this role model is to your inherent and unchangeable properties (age, sex/gender, origin, social class), the more it can inspire you. Surely, a man can be a role model for a woman in science (and vice versa) - e.g., if you are from the same small ethnic minority as the role model. However, male/female lifestyle, upbringing, interests, challenges, etc. are quite different in general, even in otherwise very homogeneous (western) societies. Therefore, the role model having the same sex/gender is very important. (Just my view - I don't have evidence or experience in this regard).
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  I'd say that is just toxic feminism telling women they can't have men as role models. Why not? Would they say women can not achieve what men can (at least in science, if not in physical endeavors)? Because if they say women can do that, then why shouldn't they take men as role models? "Someone like you" - is for example a white man from a middle class background more like a white woman from a middle class background, or is that white women more like a black woman from a poor background? I think to say "biological sex" in that context is more defining for "likeness" in academia is a silly, toxic narrative. In my youth, I personally also enjoyed books and comics with female heroines, and never thought that they shouldn't be my role models. I guess these days that wouldn't be possible anymore.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    Yes, "role models" are a good indication of how weak or strong our social capital is. Our society is increasingly fraying apart, so much so that people are now unwilling to view others as fundamentally sharing the same humanity and social outlook as themselves, unless they happen to share some shallow but somehow salient features like gender, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation and so on and so forth, that make them a part of some increasingly narrow "tribe". This kind of thing used to be seen as a significant social faux pas, but increasingly we see it being accepted.
  - Tehchops 7y ago
    This is exactly the kind of comment that make these threads toxic. Gender, like it or not, shapes the life experience of an individual. Why would you not want to have a role model that had a similar life experience to your own? Except, inevitably, when a woman expresses that desire, it gets called "toxic feminism", and the justification is, wait for it: the personal anecdotes and experiences of a male. I am shocked that in 2019 there is still so little self-awareness around this.
    - bubblewrap 7y ago
      So the personal life experience of a male doesn't count for anything? THAT is what I would call the actual toxic attitude. What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models? Is there a difference between men and women, then? Is that what you are saying? By that logic, why shouldn't I as a man say "fuck women in STEM", because apparently we will never be able to communicate about anything meaningful anyway. People who make it clear they don't care about my opinion, why should I want them in my life? I stated my reasons why I think focusing on gendered role models is misleading and harmful. Fine, you may disagree. But calling it toxic and "mansplaining" - that's not furthering discourse, and frankly, if that is your attitude, STEM may be better off without you anyway. After all, science is about keeping an open mind, among other things.
      - Tehchops 7y ago
        >So the personal life experience of a male doesn't count for anything? THAT is what I would call the actual toxic attitude. Ah yes, the classic: "I'm not toxic, you are!". Where in my original comment did I say the male perspective, anecdotal as it may be in a given context, counts for nothing? I didn't. What I did say was that a singular, anecdotal male perspective was not appropriate as a justification for depicting a woman desiring a similarly-gendered role model was somehow indicative of "toxic feminism". >What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models? No one said they couldn't, but you're depicting what was said as far more benign than it really was. You didn't ask an open-ended question about it, you specifically categorized said desire as "toxic feminism". >if that is your attitude, STEM may be better off without you anyway. After all, science is about keeping an open mind, among other things. Maybe one of the STEM fields will be able to develop a device that can accurately measure the immense amount of irony bundled up in that sentence. Same merry-go-round as usual in these threads: Subtly patronizing comment(mansplaining if you will), someone points out "hey that's kind of toxic", original commenter retreats to victimhood and "I'm not toxic, you are! No one has an open mind about this kind of thing etc...", and around we go. If you want to pretend like STEM doesn't have a centuries-long history of fairly uneven footing for other genders and minorities, and accuse everyone of suddenly being close-minded and toxic, fine, but you're going to have a hard time cashing in the victim card when someone points out the ridiculousness of it.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  >the closer this role model is to your inherent and unchangeable properties (age, sex/gender, origin, social class), the more it can inspire you. // Citation? I call bunkum on that. TBH it seems both sexist and racist to say one can only be inspired by people of one's own characteristics (in science). In this case the sex and race are irrelevant to Bouman's contribution AFAICT. If you were talking about someone like Payne-Gaposchkin, then she overcame a deal of sexism, fair enough. The whole she did it and had ovaries, omg, seems so condescending and unnecessary.
  - hlurhhh 7y ago
    Dude where does it say we can only be inspired? > The whole she did it and had ovaries, omg, seems so condescending and unnecessary. it's not omg she had ovaries, it's omg she did it, knowing she's going to get shit on by people (e.g. these comments) instead of applauded for what her and her team did for science. That's how it's inspiring to me.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  >A 'role model' is someone who shares your background and is successful in an area of interest where you would like to participate/contribute That may be your personal definition, but that is not the actual denotation of "role model". Some definitions I found are: "a person whose behavior, example, or success is or can be emulated by others, especially by younger people. " and "a person whose behavior in a particular role is imitated by others" There is no mention or qualifier of it needing to be someone who shares one's background
telesilla 7y ago
I do! And many of them. But imagine you have a strong, particular physical trait and you are in a room with others who do not share that trait. Usually you forget about it, but sometimes it matters because you have to use a different bathroom, or you don't get easily invited out for drinks because of tension or maybe you don't speak the language well, or maybe there are perceived cultural barriers. If you saw someone on television or in the news about someone with your trait and excelling in your field, imagine how delighted you would feel! That somehow, after all you do belong in that field. It's a natural human response to want to feel part of a community, and that's hard to do when you are a singular type of a clearly-visible trait.
- hurryskurry 7y ago
  Except in most of STEM there are already an equal number of women. As soon as the baby boomers retire itll be obvious. Women get more PhDs than men, and have been for a while.
  - telesilla 7y ago
    Do you work in an office with low-level programmers and hardware designers? I do, and I'm one of a handful of women in the building. Actually at the moment, I'm the only one and I'm lobbying for our new hire of managing director to be a woman but it's likely not going to happen because I can't find someone qualified. When I teach in the field at my university, I'm the only woman. And I live in a very popular, large city. Even less, as owners - when I go to a conference of hundreds of businesses, I'm maybe one or 3 or 4 in my field who owns her company. We're not equal yet. Maybe California and the East Coast have some slight more balance, but it's not distributed to the rest of the world yet. In spite of this, I'm lucky to have an amazing network of other women in my field, and thanks to the internet and cultural exchanges, we don't feel so alone these days.
    - charliepark 7y ago
      Unfortunately, we're not there yet in California, either. I worked at one of the most progressive / women-friendly companies in San Francisco, and as of last year, only 34.3% of our technical roles were filled by women (company size ~1,000). I'm eager to see this year's numbers, and hope they've improved, but there's undoubtedly a lot of room to grow.
hlurhhh 7y ago
(FYI I'm not directing this anger at you dude, it's generalized) what the fuck don't people understand about a woman wanting a woman role model? I got the same questions asked to me in the Marissa Mayer thread a day or two ago. Like yeah I got some male role models too, but fuck I want some representation! Someone who I can relate to! Someone who I know went through what I did!
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  "Someone who I know went through what I did!" Which is what, exactly? What is so fundamental different abotu your experience? The immeasurable pain of being a minority in a group of people?
  - charliepark 7y ago
    A few things. I wouldn't say these if I didn't think you had the capacity to listen and learn. 1. Your tone is excessively combative for Hacker News. If you're put off by my saying that, ask yourself what a non-combative way to take that in and reflect on it would be. As a concrete example, you said "What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models?", in a thread after the OP had already replied to you that she had/has men as role models. It implies either that you aren't listening, or that you're being antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic. Neither is welcome here. 2. Using phrases like "toxic feminism" make you sound intellectually feeble. Try to be more specific and concrete about what you're addressing without using charged words like that. Unironically using the phrase "toxic feminism" instantly undermines any argument you might make. Again, if your point really is to learn from / share with others, find ways to communicate that don't put up walls. 3. If you're legitimately interested in finding out about why representation matters — and I sincerely hope you are — this is a good piece on it: https://medium.com/@uxdiogenes/just-a-brown-hand-313db35230c5 https://medium.com/@uxdiogenes/just-a-brown-hand-313db35230c...

A 'role model' is someone who shares your background and is successful in an area of interest where you would like to participate/contribute (science, art, sports, politics, ...) . It's someone who demonstrates that 'someone like you' can be successful, too. Therefore, the closer this role model is to your inherent and unchangeable properties (age, sex/gender, origin, social class), the more it can inspire you. Surely, a man can be a role model for a woman in science (and vice versa) - e.g., if you are from the same small ethnic minority as the role model. However, male/female lifestyle, upbringing, interests, challenges, etc. are quite different in general, even in otherwise very homogeneous (western) societies. Therefore, the role model having the same sex/gender is very important. (Just my view - I don't have evidence or experience in this regard).

bubblewrap 7y ago
I'd say that is just toxic feminism telling women they can't have men as role models. Why not? Would they say women can not achieve what men can (at least in science, if not in physical endeavors)? Because if they say women can do that, then why shouldn't they take men as role models? "Someone like you" - is for example a white man from a middle class background more like a white woman from a middle class background, or is that white women more like a black woman from a poor background? I think to say "biological sex" in that context is more defining for "likeness" in academia is a silly, toxic narrative. In my youth, I personally also enjoyed books and comics with female heroines, and never thought that they shouldn't be my role models. I guess these days that wouldn't be possible anymore.
- 0815test 7y ago
  Yes, "role models" are a good indication of how weak or strong our social capital is. Our society is increasingly fraying apart, so much so that people are now unwilling to view others as fundamentally sharing the same humanity and social outlook as themselves, unless they happen to share some shallow but somehow salient features like gender, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation and so on and so forth, that make them a part of some increasingly narrow "tribe". This kind of thing used to be seen as a significant social faux pas, but increasingly we see it being accepted.
- Tehchops 7y ago
  This is exactly the kind of comment that make these threads toxic. Gender, like it or not, shapes the life experience of an individual. Why would you not want to have a role model that had a similar life experience to your own? Except, inevitably, when a woman expresses that desire, it gets called "toxic feminism", and the justification is, wait for it: the personal anecdotes and experiences of a male. I am shocked that in 2019 there is still so little self-awareness around this.
  - bubblewrap 7y ago
    So the personal life experience of a male doesn't count for anything? THAT is what I would call the actual toxic attitude. What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models? Is there a difference between men and women, then? Is that what you are saying? By that logic, why shouldn't I as a man say "fuck women in STEM", because apparently we will never be able to communicate about anything meaningful anyway. People who make it clear they don't care about my opinion, why should I want them in my life? I stated my reasons why I think focusing on gendered role models is misleading and harmful. Fine, you may disagree. But calling it toxic and "mansplaining" - that's not furthering discourse, and frankly, if that is your attitude, STEM may be better off without you anyway. After all, science is about keeping an open mind, among other things.
    - Tehchops 7y ago
      >So the personal life experience of a male doesn't count for anything? THAT is what I would call the actual toxic attitude. Ah yes, the classic: "I'm not toxic, you are!". Where in my original comment did I say the male perspective, anecdotal as it may be in a given context, counts for nothing? I didn't. What I did say was that a singular, anecdotal male perspective was not appropriate as a justification for depicting a woman desiring a similarly-gendered role model was somehow indicative of "toxic feminism". >What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models? No one said they couldn't, but you're depicting what was said as far more benign than it really was. You didn't ask an open-ended question about it, you specifically categorized said desire as "toxic feminism". >if that is your attitude, STEM may be better off without you anyway. After all, science is about keeping an open mind, among other things. Maybe one of the STEM fields will be able to develop a device that can accurately measure the immense amount of irony bundled up in that sentence. Same merry-go-round as usual in these threads: Subtly patronizing comment(mansplaining if you will), someone points out "hey that's kind of toxic", original commenter retreats to victimhood and "I'm not toxic, you are! No one has an open mind about this kind of thing etc...", and around we go. If you want to pretend like STEM doesn't have a centuries-long history of fairly uneven footing for other genders and minorities, and accuse everyone of suddenly being close-minded and toxic, fine, but you're going to have a hard time cashing in the victim card when someone points out the ridiculousness of it.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
>the closer this role model is to your inherent and unchangeable properties (age, sex/gender, origin, social class), the more it can inspire you. // Citation? I call bunkum on that. TBH it seems both sexist and racist to say one can only be inspired by people of one's own characteristics (in science). In this case the sex and race are irrelevant to Bouman's contribution AFAICT. If you were talking about someone like Payne-Gaposchkin, then she overcame a deal of sexism, fair enough. The whole she did it and had ovaries, omg, seems so condescending and unnecessary.
- hlurhhh 7y ago
  Dude where does it say we can only be inspired? > The whole she did it and had ovaries, omg, seems so condescending and unnecessary. it's not omg she had ovaries, it's omg she did it, knowing she's going to get shit on by people (e.g. these comments) instead of applauded for what her and her team did for science. That's how it's inspiring to me.
okmokmz 7y ago
>A 'role model' is someone who shares your background and is successful in an area of interest where you would like to participate/contribute That may be your personal definition, but that is not the actual denotation of "role model". Some definitions I found are: "a person whose behavior, example, or success is or can be emulated by others, especially by younger people. " and "a person whose behavior in a particular role is imitated by others" There is no mention or qualifier of it needing to be someone who shares one's background

telesilla 7y ago

I do! And many of them. But imagine you have a strong, particular physical trait and you are in a room with others who do not share that trait. Usually you forget about it, but sometimes it matters because you have to use a different bathroom, or you don't get easily invited out for drinks because of tension or maybe you don't speak the language well, or maybe there are perceived cultural barriers. If you saw someone on television or in the news about someone with your trait and excelling in your field, imagine how delighted you would feel! That somehow, after all you do belong in that field. It's a natural human response to want to feel part of a community, and that's hard to do when you are a singular type of a clearly-visible trait.

hurryskurry 7y ago
Except in most of STEM there are already an equal number of women. As soon as the baby boomers retire itll be obvious. Women get more PhDs than men, and have been for a while.
- telesilla 7y ago
  Do you work in an office with low-level programmers and hardware designers? I do, and I'm one of a handful of women in the building. Actually at the moment, I'm the only one and I'm lobbying for our new hire of managing director to be a woman but it's likely not going to happen because I can't find someone qualified. When I teach in the field at my university, I'm the only woman. And I live in a very popular, large city. Even less, as owners - when I go to a conference of hundreds of businesses, I'm maybe one or 3 or 4 in my field who owns her company. We're not equal yet. Maybe California and the East Coast have some slight more balance, but it's not distributed to the rest of the world yet. In spite of this, I'm lucky to have an amazing network of other women in my field, and thanks to the internet and cultural exchanges, we don't feel so alone these days.
  - charliepark 7y ago
    Unfortunately, we're not there yet in California, either. I worked at one of the most progressive / women-friendly companies in San Francisco, and as of last year, only 34.3% of our technical roles were filled by women (company size ~1,000). I'm eager to see this year's numbers, and hope they've improved, but there's undoubtedly a lot of room to grow.

hlurhhh 7y ago

(FYI I'm not directing this anger at you dude, it's generalized) what the fuck don't people understand about a woman wanting a woman role model? I got the same questions asked to me in the Marissa Mayer thread a day or two ago. Like yeah I got some male role models too, but fuck I want some representation! Someone who I can relate to! Someone who I know went through what I did!

bubblewrap 7y ago
"Someone who I know went through what I did!" Which is what, exactly? What is so fundamental different abotu your experience? The immeasurable pain of being a minority in a group of people?
- charliepark 7y ago
  A few things. I wouldn't say these if I didn't think you had the capacity to listen and learn. 1. Your tone is excessively combative for Hacker News. If you're put off by my saying that, ask yourself what a non-combative way to take that in and reflect on it would be. As a concrete example, you said "What makes women unable to have male role models, but men able to have female role models?", in a thread after the OP had already replied to you that she had/has men as role models. It implies either that you aren't listening, or that you're being antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic. Neither is welcome here. 2. Using phrases like "toxic feminism" make you sound intellectually feeble. Try to be more specific and concrete about what you're addressing without using charged words like that. Unironically using the phrase "toxic feminism" instantly undermines any argument you might make. Again, if your point really is to learn from / share with others, find ways to communicate that don't put up walls. 3. If you're legitimately interested in finding out about why representation matters — and I sincerely hope you are — this is a good piece on it: https://medium.com/@uxdiogenes/just-a-brown-hand-313db35230c5 https://medium.com/@uxdiogenes/just-a-brown-hand-313db35230c...