9 ms·

Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

194 points by danso 8y ago

0xADADA 8y ago
best game ever.
- LanceH 8y ago
  Are you a sailor?
vertline3 8y ago
Who hated forklift driving? Also lots of spoilers here.
- FactolSarin 8y ago
  The game is 20 years old. I think the spoiler warning period has lapsed.
  - vertline3 8y ago
    I don't think so personally, because the game is something that should be experienced. Just reading about it, is like reading about food. I'm not saying don't read it, I'm saying if you want to play the game, consider playing it without preconceptions.
  - danso 8y ago
    This made me think on a tangent, on whether divulging spoilers for an interactive experience have a heavier "stigma" than for books or movies. Five or 10 years from now, or even a month from now, I can't imagine being offended if someone were to spoil who dies in "Avengers: Infinity War", or the 3rd season of GoT. Whereas a video game is much more inherently about the "journey" -- e.g. you have to do some work to get to the end. I think I'd be annoyed if people were just spoiling "The Last of Us" 10 years after its release (which is likely to be after its sequel is released). That said, I don't think I'll ever find time to play the original Shenmue. But hearing more details about why it has cultivated such a fond following makes me very interested in playing its Kickstarted sequel.
  - CoolGuySteve 8y ago
    Unlike other mediums, the number of people who play games has grown exponentially over those 20 years. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people who play games now have never experienced Shenmue even though it was a blockbuster title on the 9 million Dreamcasts that shipped worldwide. And you're not only spoiling the 20 year old version, you're also spoiling the HD remaster that can be bought right now on PC.
ekianjo 8y ago
Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.
- corysama 8y ago
  A lot of people hated the forklift segment. “Why am I coming home from my job to relax by doing another job?” was a common refrain. The article is a stretch, but is is downright mundane compared to the explanations of game designs I’ve heard straight from the mouth of Japan’s rockstar designers who made them. They enjoy wearing sunglasses and black leather jackets and getting extremely abstract about game design.
  - codesushi42 8y ago
    That was the problem. The game's lead, Yu Suzuki, was not primarily a game designer. He was known to push ahead games with revolutionary graphics, see Space Harrier and Virtua Fighter. But he was nowhere near as good at game design as Miyamoto or Naka. I loved Shenmue for the immersive experience which was unchallenged at the time. It was the first of its kind, and for a long time no other open world game paid as much attention to detail. But its traditional gameplay mechanics were weak.
    - empath75 8y ago
      AFAIK he also invented the quick time event in that game -- the scourge of 'interactive movie' games ever since.
    - vertline3 8y ago
      I think the design is pretty great, we have a virtual fighter combat system with training, (and many hardcore fighter game fans appreciate Virtua fighters mechanics) we have an arcade with actual games from the era, we have a gacha system. But the point wasn't to make an arcade, the point was to create something like a real world where you can walk around and explore. It's not about dopamine hits. I think one famous mechanic besides 3d fighters that Yu made, was the arcade that has a vehicle you ride on.
b_tterc_p 8y ago
I was too stupid to do drive the forklift when I played this as a kid. Maybe I was missing something obvious but I recall getting stuck in the game and just doing my forklift job so poorly that I was not allowed to advance for months of in game time.
- 83457 8y ago
  I recall the controls took some getting used to. I believe the left/right controls actually started movement of a slow turning wheel on the forklift that moved at a constant rate that then turned the wheels, as opposed to direct/real-time input like racing games.
minikites 8y ago
The idea of a game playing the player is also explored in Spec Ops: The Line where (according to the developers) a valid response to the atrocities in the game is to simply stop playing the game, giving up before completing it.
- jahabrewer 8y ago
  Oh man, Spec Ops is one of my top games, but I've only played it once. Same feeling as watching Requiem for a Dream--once is enough. It's difficult to recommend it to people without giving away the experience of walking in to it thinking "it's just another mideast shooter".
whywhywhywhy 8y ago
Loved the virtual flaneur aspect of this game, just wandering around the neighborhood, checking out shops, buying things, talking to people, heading home in the evening were so enjoyable. My Summer Car is the only modern game that comes to mind that captures the same kind of experience for me, if anyone has any other suggestions I'd love to hear them.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  Persona 4 has a lot of this. Very strong sense of place—you feel bonded to the town and the people.
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    It really did establish a strong sense of place. And it was a somewhat unique place, too - a "boring" and unremarkable suburb. Many (most?) of us grew up someplace similar, but few games are set in such places because of the lack of coolness. Also: I can't look at a retail display of TVs without thinking of that game and hearing the department store jingle!
- dmix 8y ago
  One of the few games where I actually enjoyed "working" within a game to gain money. I was so surprised by the game. It really was an unexpected and eye-opening experience that didn't really get replicated besides maybe by GTA.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  I hate the story with a passion, but Red Dead Redemption 2 has a great rural world to run around in. Talking to people does get pretty repetitive after a while.
- billfruit 8y ago
  To my eye, Fallout New Vegas, had some of the most immersive open world experience. Walking alone through the streats, or even in the scrub lands late in the night, it almost feels if you are really there. Sometimes, rarely, you can get a similar vibe from Witcher 3 as well, but that game is a chore to play.
awill 8y ago
One of my favourite games growing up. I was disappointed when the sequel became an Xbox exclusive in the west. I imported the Japanese copy of Shenmue II and played it on my Dreamcast. Fortunately there were English subtitles. I of course picked up the Shenmue 1+2 remaster on PS4, and have backed the kickstarter for the third (coming out this August!). You can bet the third will have forklifts! 1+2 don't really hold up that well today, but like many fans, I bought this purely for nostalgic reasons. If I were to bet, I'd say Shenmue 3 will get metacritic scores in the 70s. It feels like an impossible task honestly. How to update the game for 2019 whilst also pleasing die-hard fans.
- Merem 8y ago
  What do you mean? Shenmue II was released in Europe with Japanese audio and subtitles even (which is the best kind of release, in my opinion). I also think that both games hold up very well today. Played them for the first time around seven years ago and was blown away. Personally, I prefer the first one because it has a more concentrated setting as well as a nostalgic atmosphere. Despite being rather familiar with games in general, I haven't encountered anything comparable.
  - 83457 8y ago
    It wasn't released in the US. I believe Microsoft bought the rights to make it an Xbox exclusive here.
gcbw2 8y ago
I bet game "journalists" have an inside competition where they have to pick the most annoying (or overplayed) filler put in games as an after thought to bump the game play hours metric, and write the most romanticized elegy full of pseudo philosophy and grandeur. I've seen this for everything in shenmue, for the endless grind in FF, even for the coding bugs(!) and reused art in Mother.
- overthemoon 8y ago
  This kind of knee jerk anti journalist gamer bile is getting old. Respond to the points the article actually made. There's nothing inherently wrong with this kind of criticism.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
colanderman 8y ago
Games now have crates on forklifts, but still are missing the essential element connecting the two, the pallet? [1] [1] http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html
outericky 8y ago
I barely remember the forklifting... All I seem to remember is everyone saying "Oh, hello Ryo" and talking about "that day, when the snow turned to rain"
- mywittyname 8y ago
  Did you see a black car?
- MrMember 8y ago
  Do you know where I can find some sailors? What can you tell me about the four wudu?
jmkd 8y ago
Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self, and of your quest, and of Ryu's. I don't like the way this writer put it, but the forklifts were at least evolutionary. They follow a path set by some early 80s job-simulator games[1], but perhaps most memorably by 1995's unreleased Desert Bus by Penn & Teller for the 3DO [2]. [1] https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-that-got-turned-into-games https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-that... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_Mirrors#Desert_Bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_...
- bgeeek 8y ago
  I was wracking my brain trying to think of early '80s job-simulator games, mostly because there aren't many at all. I'm not sure that I'd class Trashman, Paperboy or Tapper (fond of all 3 btw) as job-simulators. Other than driving and flightsims, I can't think of any from the early '80s :) Late '80s perhaps.
  - jmkd 8y ago
    You're probably right. Over time I conflate the concepts found in games like Skool Daze, Make a Chip, My Name is Uncle Groucho, Software Star, Grand National and suchlike that brought together semi-prosaic simulation tasks with a startling self-awareness.
    - bgeeek 8y ago
      TLL was way ahead of its time, IMHO. Fast forward 10 years and Desert Strike is a hit on the Megadrive! I can vaguely remember proper flightsims on the Speccy (one required a lens-lock! remember those?) :) This is going to bug me now - I'm going to be sat here all evening trying to think up games from back in the day!
lostgame 8y ago
The Dreamcast is by far and large my favourite console to actually play games on. The level of innovation and quality of software was astounding. And, while they suffered from awful battery life, the little VMU visual memory cards were adorable.
curtisalbert 8y ago
why would so many hate Kotaku? I never found anything wrong with it. Maybe even the liberal aspect should make it more appealing. https://cheapest-essay-writing-service.com/rewrite-my-essay/ https://cheapest-essay-writing-service.com/rewrite-my-essay/
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Driving with the forks up I guess that's what passes for realism in the pre-Klaus[1] era of forklift video game design. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME

194 points by danso 8y ago

0xADADA 8y ago

best game ever.

LanceH 8y ago
Are you a sailor?

vertline3 8y ago

Who hated forklift driving? Also lots of spoilers here.

FactolSarin 8y ago
The game is 20 years old. I think the spoiler warning period has lapsed.
- vertline3 8y ago
  I don't think so personally, because the game is something that should be experienced. Just reading about it, is like reading about food. I'm not saying don't read it, I'm saying if you want to play the game, consider playing it without preconceptions.
- danso 8y ago
  This made me think on a tangent, on whether divulging spoilers for an interactive experience have a heavier "stigma" than for books or movies. Five or 10 years from now, or even a month from now, I can't imagine being offended if someone were to spoil who dies in "Avengers: Infinity War", or the 3rd season of GoT. Whereas a video game is much more inherently about the "journey" -- e.g. you have to do some work to get to the end. I think I'd be annoyed if people were just spoiling "The Last of Us" 10 years after its release (which is likely to be after its sequel is released). That said, I don't think I'll ever find time to play the original Shenmue. But hearing more details about why it has cultivated such a fond following makes me very interested in playing its Kickstarted sequel.
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  Unlike other mediums, the number of people who play games has grown exponentially over those 20 years. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people who play games now have never experienced Shenmue even though it was a blockbuster title on the 9 million Dreamcasts that shipped worldwide. And you're not only spoiling the 20 year old version, you're also spoiling the HD remaster that can be bought right now on PC.

ekianjo 8y ago

Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.

corysama 8y ago
A lot of people hated the forklift segment. “Why am I coming home from my job to relax by doing another job?” was a common refrain. The article is a stretch, but is is downright mundane compared to the explanations of game designs I’ve heard straight from the mouth of Japan’s rockstar designers who made them. They enjoy wearing sunglasses and black leather jackets and getting extremely abstract about game design.
- codesushi42 8y ago
  That was the problem. The game's lead, Yu Suzuki, was not primarily a game designer. He was known to push ahead games with revolutionary graphics, see Space Harrier and Virtua Fighter. But he was nowhere near as good at game design as Miyamoto or Naka. I loved Shenmue for the immersive experience which was unchallenged at the time. It was the first of its kind, and for a long time no other open world game paid as much attention to detail. But its traditional gameplay mechanics were weak.
  - empath75 8y ago
    AFAIK he also invented the quick time event in that game -- the scourge of 'interactive movie' games ever since.
  - vertline3 8y ago
    I think the design is pretty great, we have a virtual fighter combat system with training, (and many hardcore fighter game fans appreciate Virtua fighters mechanics) we have an arcade with actual games from the era, we have a gacha system. But the point wasn't to make an arcade, the point was to create something like a real world where you can walk around and explore. It's not about dopamine hits. I think one famous mechanic besides 3d fighters that Yu made, was the arcade that has a vehicle you ride on.

b_tterc_p 8y ago

I was too stupid to do drive the forklift when I played this as a kid. Maybe I was missing something obvious but I recall getting stuck in the game and just doing my forklift job so poorly that I was not allowed to advance for months of in game time.

83457 8y ago
I recall the controls took some getting used to. I believe the left/right controls actually started movement of a slow turning wheel on the forklift that moved at a constant rate that then turned the wheels, as opposed to direct/real-time input like racing games.

minikites 8y ago

The idea of a game playing the player is also explored in Spec Ops: The Line where (according to the developers) a valid response to the atrocities in the game is to simply stop playing the game, giving up before completing it.

jahabrewer 8y ago
Oh man, Spec Ops is one of my top games, but I've only played it once. Same feeling as watching Requiem for a Dream--once is enough. It's difficult to recommend it to people without giving away the experience of walking in to it thinking "it's just another mideast shooter".

whywhywhywhy 8y ago

Loved the virtual flaneur aspect of this game, just wandering around the neighborhood, checking out shops, buying things, talking to people, heading home in the evening were so enjoyable. My Summer Car is the only modern game that comes to mind that captures the same kind of experience for me, if anyone has any other suggestions I'd love to hear them.

Wowfunhappy 8y ago
Persona 4 has a lot of this. Very strong sense of place—you feel bonded to the town and the people.
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  It really did establish a strong sense of place. And it was a somewhat unique place, too - a "boring" and unremarkable suburb. Many (most?) of us grew up someplace similar, but few games are set in such places because of the lack of coolness. Also: I can't look at a retail display of TVs without thinking of that game and hearing the department store jingle!
dmix 8y ago
One of the few games where I actually enjoyed "working" within a game to gain money. I was so surprised by the game. It really was an unexpected and eye-opening experience that didn't really get replicated besides maybe by GTA.
dwighttk 8y ago
I hate the story with a passion, but Red Dead Redemption 2 has a great rural world to run around in. Talking to people does get pretty repetitive after a while.
billfruit 8y ago
To my eye, Fallout New Vegas, had some of the most immersive open world experience. Walking alone through the streats, or even in the scrub lands late in the night, it almost feels if you are really there. Sometimes, rarely, you can get a similar vibe from Witcher 3 as well, but that game is a chore to play.

awill 8y ago

One of my favourite games growing up. I was disappointed when the sequel became an Xbox exclusive in the west. I imported the Japanese copy of Shenmue II and played it on my Dreamcast. Fortunately there were English subtitles. I of course picked up the Shenmue 1+2 remaster on PS4, and have backed the kickstarter for the third (coming out this August!). You can bet the third will have forklifts! 1+2 don't really hold up that well today, but like many fans, I bought this purely for nostalgic reasons. If I were to bet, I'd say Shenmue 3 will get metacritic scores in the 70s. It feels like an impossible task honestly. How to update the game for 2019 whilst also pleasing die-hard fans.

Merem 8y ago
What do you mean? Shenmue II was released in Europe with Japanese audio and subtitles even (which is the best kind of release, in my opinion). I also think that both games hold up very well today. Played them for the first time around seven years ago and was blown away. Personally, I prefer the first one because it has a more concentrated setting as well as a nostalgic atmosphere. Despite being rather familiar with games in general, I haven't encountered anything comparable.
- 83457 8y ago
  It wasn't released in the US. I believe Microsoft bought the rights to make it an Xbox exclusive here.

gcbw2 8y ago

I bet game "journalists" have an inside competition where they have to pick the most annoying (or overplayed) filler put in games as an after thought to bump the game play hours metric, and write the most romanticized elegy full of pseudo philosophy and grandeur. I've seen this for everything in shenmue, for the endless grind in FF, even for the coding bugs(!) and reused art in Mother.

overthemoon 8y ago
This kind of knee jerk anti journalist gamer bile is getting old. Respond to the points the article actually made. There's nothing inherently wrong with this kind of criticism.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

colanderman 8y ago

Games now have crates on forklifts, but still are missing the essential element connecting the two, the pallet? [1] [1] http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html

outericky 8y ago

I barely remember the forklifting... All I seem to remember is everyone saying "Oh, hello Ryo" and talking about "that day, when the snow turned to rain"

mywittyname 8y ago
Did you see a black car?
MrMember 8y ago
Do you know where I can find some sailors? What can you tell me about the four wudu?

jmkd 8y ago

Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self, and of your quest, and of Ryu's. I don't like the way this writer put it, but the forklifts were at least evolutionary. They follow a path set by some early 80s job-simulator games[1], but perhaps most memorably by 1995's unreleased Desert Bus by Penn & Teller for the 3DO [2]. [1] https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-that-got-turned-into-games https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-that... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_Mirrors#Desert_Bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_...

bgeeek 8y ago
I was wracking my brain trying to think of early '80s job-simulator games, mostly because there aren't many at all. I'm not sure that I'd class Trashman, Paperboy or Tapper (fond of all 3 btw) as job-simulators. Other than driving and flightsims, I can't think of any from the early '80s :) Late '80s perhaps.
- jmkd 8y ago
  You're probably right. Over time I conflate the concepts found in games like Skool Daze, Make a Chip, My Name is Uncle Groucho, Software Star, Grand National and suchlike that brought together semi-prosaic simulation tasks with a startling self-awareness.
  - bgeeek 8y ago
    TLL was way ahead of its time, IMHO. Fast forward 10 years and Desert Strike is a hit on the Megadrive! I can vaguely remember proper flightsims on the Speccy (one required a lens-lock! remember those?) :) This is going to bug me now - I'm going to be sat here all evening trying to think up games from back in the day!

lostgame 8y ago

The Dreamcast is by far and large my favourite console to actually play games on. The level of innovation and quality of software was astounding. And, while they suffered from awful battery life, the little VMU visual memory cards were adorable.

curtisalbert 8y ago

why would so many hate Kotaku? I never found anything wrong with it. Maybe even the liberal aspect should make it more appealing. https://cheapest-essay-writing-service.com/rewrite-my-essay/ https://cheapest-essay-writing-service.com/rewrite-my-essay/

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>Driving with the forks up I guess that's what passes for realism in the pre-Klaus[1] era of forklift video game design. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME