9 ms·

What a disaster handing back Hong Kong to China without a plebiscite asking Hong Kong people what they actually wanted.

arcticbull 7y ago
To be honest I'm not sure what difference it would have made. They're too close to the mainland geographically. At best it'd be a Taiwan Jr. (with Beijing asserting outright ownership and refusing to recognize independence while being in a position to do something about it physically), and at worst, well, let's just say there wouldn't have been 50 years of freedom.
- devoply 7y ago
  Put a hundred nukes and a few military bases and tell China to f-off. In fact that's what we should be doing in Taiwan right now. It's stupid to let this sort of government which to me closely resembles fascism do whatever it wants.
  - golergka 7y ago
    So, increase DoD spending even more (in such a way that cannot be easily reverted) and further antagonize with second most influential country on Earth which is really important to US economically - while confirming that all any small country needs to get free american help is to peddle a small democratic underdog narrative? Just to be clear - in Hong Kong case, I believe this narrative to be true, but it being true is much less important that it being perceived as true and actively promoted in american media.
    - devoply 7y ago
      This should be a global effort funded by democratic countries including the EU, North America, Britain, and maybe even India. The point is to keep the world from fracturing into hands of this sort of pseudo-fascism and capitalist-liberalism. The more I see the sorts of moves China is making, the more I feel that we're heading into a new sort of Cold War and America seems to be sitting back letting it happen rather than actively attempting to contain it... because it seems that they can't actually afford to do so.
      - golergka 7y ago
        That was the intent behind UN and League of Nations before that. Any new similar thing like will end up just like that - a beurocratic monstrosity that lacks any moral authority and is used as a pawn in realpolitik games.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jenshk 7y ago
    Hong Kong, at least, is Chinese and always have been. The British leased the New Territories(90% of Hong Kong) from the Qing Dynasty. Hong Kong island is the only colonial possession, but it's too small to even fit an airport. So the Brits gave it up.
    - nailer 7y ago
      > Hong Kong, at least, is Chinese and always have been That doesn't mean anything. Does it belong to the Chinese in the Communist party? Or the Chinese that live in Hong Kong?
      - unchocked 7y ago
        You’re thinking Democratically. Geopolitically, HK belongs to China, the historically established state of which Beijing is the capital.
        nailer 7y ago
        So do you think Hong Kong 'belonged to Japan' when that was the realpolitik? Beijing might control HK now, but by acknowledging the tyrant's claim, we give them power. Beijing is the capital of the PRC, not 'China'. There are many Chinas, the PRC does not have a monopoly on the name. Hong Kong belongs to it's people.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - computerfriend 7y ago
      That's not true, Kowloon was a colonial possession not under lease.
  - afarrell 7y ago
    The Sino-British Joint declaration was in 1984, when we needed the Sino-Soviet split in order to pressure the USSR.
  - lvturner 7y ago
    That worked so well in Korea...
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      Works for the South Koreans.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        As it did for the people of Hong Kong. At the time of the handover it represented 20% of China's GDP. Today it's just 2.9%, although that's 5X per capita.
- _cerv 7y ago
  In an alternate world where the New Territories had their lease renewed, they probably would remained semi autonomous and any kind of full on independence would agitate China. I don't think they would have sought to isolate other nations over recognizing HK as PRC territory as the UK wields a bit of weight, but you probably would have seen some measures put forth that would have at least required private entities operating in China to treat HK as an extension of Chinese territory, much like what goes on today with Taiwan.
ElBarto 7y ago
Hongkong was taken away from China with cannons and drugs. Handing it back was the right thing to do legally (for the new territories), morally, and historically. It's sad to see people effectively praising European imperialism in 2019, reminds me of the old "civilising the natives" antics. Edit since I'm being prevented from relying to comments: There is no regression. Those protesters were charged under a colonial-era law. Hongkong did not even have the Legislative Council under the British, which was created it as a 'gift' to the Chinese. From the popular vote, it seems to me that the "pro-Beijing" camp has a majority, so that's what "the people want"... Let's be realistic and put things in perspective, shall we. Edit 2: To the person who replied: > Meanwhile, during those 100 years, a new, distinct, non Chinese culture developed. Hong Kong people speak a different language than mainland, have different food, culture references and desires. HK's culture is as Chinese as can be. In fact it is more traditional Chinese than the mainland. They speak Chinese (Cantonese is 'Chinese', it's the language spoken in Guangdong province hence why it is spoken in HK, 'Canton' is how Guangzhou used to be called...), they eat Chinese. It would be good to know a minimum about a topic before commenting.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  What about what the people of Hong Kong want?
  - ngcc_hk 7y ago
    Liberty. Can read reddit, Facebook, google and hacker news.
- conjectures 7y ago
  European imperialism was bad. Therefore any criticism of contemporary repression is support of historical imperialism. This is a non sequitur.
  - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
    I think the suggestion is that some comments give the impression that the "natives" would be much better off under Western rule than under their own people's. I can understand that this may pass off as supporting European imperialism, and even perhaps racism. We can hope that China becomes democratic but that is an issue for the Chinese people.
dirtyid 7y ago
HK was ran by a colonial government, the irony is that the British had 100 years to grant HK citizens full suffrage but chose not to do until China modernisation made handback inevitable.
whooshee 7y ago
Well, seems to be in accordance with the fact that the British never gave HK democracy.
- nailer 7y ago
  I know Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, but: > Ever since the 1950s, the Chinese government has continually threatened the British in attempting to bring any democratic developments in Hong Kong. Attempts to bring Hong Kong citizens on to the negotiating table by the British during the Sino-Anglo discussions were rejected by Beijing in the late 1980s. The last governor Chris Patten faced a great deal of opposition in changing the former colony's political system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...

To be honest I'm not sure what difference it would have made. They're too close to the mainland geographically. At best it'd be a Taiwan Jr. (with Beijing asserting outright ownership and refusing to recognize independence while being in a position to do something about it physically), and at worst, well, let's just say there wouldn't have been 50 years of freedom.

devoply 7y ago
Put a hundred nukes and a few military bases and tell China to f-off. In fact that's what we should be doing in Taiwan right now. It's stupid to let this sort of government which to me closely resembles fascism do whatever it wants.
- golergka 7y ago
  So, increase DoD spending even more (in such a way that cannot be easily reverted) and further antagonize with second most influential country on Earth which is really important to US economically - while confirming that all any small country needs to get free american help is to peddle a small democratic underdog narrative? Just to be clear - in Hong Kong case, I believe this narrative to be true, but it being true is much less important that it being perceived as true and actively promoted in american media.
  - devoply 7y ago
    This should be a global effort funded by democratic countries including the EU, North America, Britain, and maybe even India. The point is to keep the world from fracturing into hands of this sort of pseudo-fascism and capitalist-liberalism. The more I see the sorts of moves China is making, the more I feel that we're heading into a new sort of Cold War and America seems to be sitting back letting it happen rather than actively attempting to contain it... because it seems that they can't actually afford to do so.
    - golergka 7y ago
      That was the intent behind UN and League of Nations before that. Any new similar thing like will end up just like that - a beurocratic monstrosity that lacks any moral authority and is used as a pawn in realpolitik games.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jenshk 7y ago
  Hong Kong, at least, is Chinese and always have been. The British leased the New Territories(90% of Hong Kong) from the Qing Dynasty. Hong Kong island is the only colonial possession, but it's too small to even fit an airport. So the Brits gave it up.
  - nailer 7y ago
    > Hong Kong, at least, is Chinese and always have been That doesn't mean anything. Does it belong to the Chinese in the Communist party? Or the Chinese that live in Hong Kong?
    - unchocked 7y ago
      You’re thinking Democratically. Geopolitically, HK belongs to China, the historically established state of which Beijing is the capital.
      - nailer 7y ago
        So do you think Hong Kong 'belonged to Japan' when that was the realpolitik? Beijing might control HK now, but by acknowledging the tyrant's claim, we give them power. Beijing is the capital of the PRC, not 'China'. There are many Chinas, the PRC does not have a monopoly on the name. Hong Kong belongs to it's people.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - computerfriend 7y ago
    That's not true, Kowloon was a colonial possession not under lease.
- afarrell 7y ago
  The Sino-British Joint declaration was in 1984, when we needed the Sino-Soviet split in order to pressure the USSR.
- lvturner 7y ago
  That worked so well in Korea...
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    Works for the South Koreans.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      As it did for the people of Hong Kong. At the time of the handover it represented 20% of China's GDP. Today it's just 2.9%, although that's 5X per capita.
_cerv 7y ago
In an alternate world where the New Territories had their lease renewed, they probably would remained semi autonomous and any kind of full on independence would agitate China. I don't think they would have sought to isolate other nations over recognizing HK as PRC territory as the UK wields a bit of weight, but you probably would have seen some measures put forth that would have at least required private entities operating in China to treat HK as an extension of Chinese territory, much like what goes on today with Taiwan.

ElBarto 7y ago

Hongkong was taken away from China with cannons and drugs. Handing it back was the right thing to do legally (for the new territories), morally, and historically. It's sad to see people effectively praising European imperialism in 2019, reminds me of the old "civilising the natives" antics. Edit since I'm being prevented from relying to comments: There is no regression. Those protesters were charged under a colonial-era law. Hongkong did not even have the Legislative Council under the British, which was created it as a 'gift' to the Chinese. From the popular vote, it seems to me that the "pro-Beijing" camp has a majority, so that's what "the people want"... Let's be realistic and put things in perspective, shall we. Edit 2: To the person who replied: > Meanwhile, during those 100 years, a new, distinct, non Chinese culture developed. Hong Kong people speak a different language than mainland, have different food, culture references and desires. HK's culture is as Chinese as can be. In fact it is more traditional Chinese than the mainland. They speak Chinese (Cantonese is 'Chinese', it's the language spoken in Guangdong province hence why it is spoken in HK, 'Canton' is how Guangzhou used to be called...), they eat Chinese. It would be good to know a minimum about a topic before commenting.

throwaway2048 7y ago
What about what the people of Hong Kong want?
- ngcc_hk 7y ago
  Liberty. Can read reddit, Facebook, google and hacker news.
conjectures 7y ago
European imperialism was bad. Therefore any criticism of contemporary repression is support of historical imperialism. This is a non sequitur.
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  I think the suggestion is that some comments give the impression that the "natives" would be much better off under Western rule than under their own people's. I can understand that this may pass off as supporting European imperialism, and even perhaps racism. We can hope that China becomes democratic but that is an issue for the Chinese people.

dirtyid 7y ago

HK was ran by a colonial government, the irony is that the British had 100 years to grant HK citizens full suffrage but chose not to do until China modernisation made handback inevitable.

whooshee 7y ago

Well, seems to be in accordance with the fact that the British never gave HK democracy.

nailer 7y ago
I know Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, but: > Ever since the 1950s, the Chinese government has continually threatened the British in attempting to bring any democratic developments in Hong Kong. Attempts to bring Hong Kong citizens on to the negotiating table by the British during the Sino-Anglo discussions were rejected by Beijing in the late 1980s. The last governor Chris Patten faced a great deal of opposition in changing the former colony's political system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...