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Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now
- csuld223 8y agoWe live in a culture where there is an normally an intense focus on the benefits of technology and not really a lot of regard for any of the possible the negatives. I.e. there is a huge bias at a cultural level. I guess this a lot to do with idea that consumerism is the solution when things get difficult in life. If you study history you can see how this normally presents itself - and even effects the science c.f. the smoking industry.
- mcguire 8y ago"The Brussels region has particularly strict radiation standards for telecom applications. The standard of 6 volts per metre has already led to problems in the past with providing fast mobile internet via 4G in the capital." On one hand, 6V/m seems like a lot; I haven't been able to find a reliable regulation site. On the other, 20V/m is apparently common (https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/what-is-radiation/non-ionising-radiation/low-frequency-electric-magnetic-fields https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/what-is-r...).
- crudbug 8y agoI looked at some trial 5G gNB; you definitely feel nauseated if u r standing near these units. This will be a concern.
- hannob 8y agohave you also tried to blind-test standing beside one that's switched off and on? Because plenty of people say they can "feel" cellphone radiation (so-called electrosensitivity), yet noone has ever been able to show this under controlled scientific conditions. As soon as they don't know if the radiation is there they stop feeling it.
- NullPrefix 8y ago>As soon as they don't know if the radiation is there they stop feeling it. Was this documented during a test or just anecdata?
- 32032141 8y agohttps://mybroadband.co.za/news/wireless/11099-massive-revelation-in-iburst-tower-battle.html https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wireless/11099-massive-revela... This sort of thing happens quite a bit actually. In this case, a huge number of residents complained ofvarious illnesses that were supposed to have been caused by a new tower being built in their vicinity. That the symptoms were presented when the tower was not operational is fairly telling that nocebo effect dominates here over any rational or explainable occurrence.
- aldoushuxley001 8y agoNote this has no bearing on whether 5G does or doesn't actually have any deleterious or damaging effects on health. That being said, it does, as 32032141 suggests, tell a fair amount about nocebo effects.
- 32032141 8y agoIndeed. My point was that taking claims about effects from people is effectively worthless in a situation where the "threat" is invisible, effects are subjective, and there's a lot of political motivation for belief in them. In a small city nearby people claimed these sorts of effects in an attempt to prevent a cellphone tower being built and "ruining" their view.
- shrewduser 8y ago>noone has ever been able to show this under controlled scientific conditions. implies that it was documented during a test
- typon 8y agoSimilar to the studies done on infrasound, which seems to bother residents living near wind farms. The studies show that the biggest indicator of whether you're affected by infrasound is if you're told there is infrasound being emitted...
- DaniloDias 8y agoThis is a problem for any sufficiently high power transmitter.
- xchip 8y agoI live in Brussels, internet over 4G works great and nobody complains about it being slow. I am willing to change my mind if somebody proves why we need to upgrade but (and as much as I love new tech) "if ain't broken dont touch it", if anything just make it cheaper.
- shrewduser 8y ago5g would make it cheaper eventually.
- oneowl 8y agoIts a good point plus upgrading to 5g will require purchasing new smartphones so it can be quite a costly affair for the consumer.
- tapland 8y agoThey will discontinue all the older networks? I can run my new device from this year old good old 2G if I want to. I don't think you are correct in this.
- wtallis 8y agoWho still operates 2G networks? It's not at all profitable to use such spectrum-inefficient tech in any area that has enough density of customers to warrant running a cell tower in the first place. 3G networks are starting to be phased out already, because upgrading radios is cheaper than acquiring spectrum that's currently allocated to incumbent non-cellular uses—and holdouts running obsolete phones aren't numerous enough to worry carriers.
- lstodd 8y agoMany new deployments in Africa, Asia and Oceania as we speak. 4G sucks at coverage and handset count is nowhere near enough to justify 4G hardware and power consumption in most places. 3G yes, it sort of fell through between 2G and 4G - smaller coverage compared to 2G, smaller data throughput compared to 4G.
- benevol 8y agoYou might want to sign the international petition [0] and the petition for Switzerland [1]. [0] https://www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal https://www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal [1] https://www.change.org/p/p%C3%A9tition-contre-la-5g-et-ses-dangers-suisse-petizione-contro-i-pericoli-dei-5g-svizzera-petition-about-5g-and-his-dangers-petici%C3%B3n-contra-la-5g-y-sus-peligros-suiza https://www.change.org/p/p%C3%A9tition-contre-la-5g-et-ses-d...
- whynotminot 8y agoDo you also have some anti-vaccine petitions to share? Maybe I'll designate Sundays as my "support causes with zero basis in science" day.
- justin--sane 8y agoDid you find those links on a flat earth website? Please, please go and read up on the topic, that might help you falling for pseudo science
- aphextron 8y agoThis whole nonsense just makes me irrationally angry. It’s a serious education issue we have with the absolute basics of electromagnetism. It’s just magic to most people and so they treat it with pure superstition.
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y agoWhy so? I checked the link in the petition: https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal There are plenty of scientists asking for more testing and international coordination regarding the guidelines as to what EM levels and frequencies can be considered "safe" for humans. Given he fact that our activity in these areas constantly increases, it is a prudent approach, even if you could call it conservative. If we adopted the same approach in other areas, we could have saved lives. I'm not saying EM radiation is like lead or asbestos, but vehement negation of certain documented risks and aggressive lobbying by the industry makes me wonder what our - as a humanity - priorities should be.
- walkingolof 8y agoWonder what this decision is baserad on, its non-ionized radiation and may confuse bees etc but humans ....?
- xchip 8y agoOn the paper that is true but still the FCC seems to have some concerns + https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/wireless-devices-and-health-concerns https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/wireless-devices-and-he... + https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/human-exposure-radio-frequency-fields-guidelines-cellular-and-pcs-sites https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/human-exposure-radio-fr...
- Symmetry 8y agoThose guidelines are all about the heating effects of microwave radiation on flesh, the same way that an animal placed in a microwave oven would be injured or killed. And the FCC has established a limit for exposure of 1.6 W/kg where we can be sure that you aren't anywhere near having parts of you cooked. Sufficiently intense microwave exposure can be a health hazard but there's nothing subtle about it, like there is with ionizing radiation which can make you sick days or weeks after exposure or give you cancer. For 5G in particular the radio waves will tend to not penetrate as far into you body. Some militarizes have actually developed non-lethal crowd control weapons that cause a burning sensation in the victims' skins with the same sort of ~100GHz waves used by 5G but at a much, much higher power than the FCC would allow for consumer devices.
- jcims 8y agoIs that 1.6W per kg of exposed tissue or for the whole critter (e.g. 160W for a 100kg manbeast)? I put my hand on an antenna coupling plate for one of those through the glass CB antennas, and keyed the mic. This CB transmitted at 4W. It truly felt like someone heated the tip of a dagger and stabbed the palm of my hand with it. Unbelievably painful.
- detuur 8y ago
- holografix 8y agoHaving lived in Brussels for a year now and witnessing sidewalks covered in trash and bad air quality I’m quite cynical of politicians waxing lyrical about protecting their constituent’s health. I think the last paragraph in that article holds more weight. “Last week, the various governments in Belgium once again failed to reach agreement on the auctioning of the 5G licences. The file remains stuck on the distribution of the proceeds. It will be up to the next government to handle the proposal, said Telecom Minister Philippe De Backer (Open VLD) last week.“
- mrtksn 8y agoThis sounds like a fallacy. Should they also allow asbestos because the sidewalks are covered in trash anyway?
- laHiesh1 8y agoNo, but it seems like they might be neglecting issues that are affecting their constituents health (potentially easy to fix by the sounds of it) and focusing on the current fashionable moral panic.
- mcguire 8y agoTrash on the streets is fairly difficult to fix, without authoritarianism or major cultural change.
- wongarsu 8y agoIn my experience a clean public space tends to stay clean even without outside input, while trash leads to more trash. Apparently people feel more guilty for making a clean place dirty than for making a dirty place a bit dirtier. Thus a good way to fix trash on the streets is to pay people to clean it up, and after a short while you can get clean streets with a very moderate level of cleaning effort.
- dekhn 8y agoWhen I visited amsterdam I saw little or no trash. After watching a while, I noticed they have guys with little witches brooms cleaning everywhere (it was really interesting to watch, turns out they used to use more modern ones but they don't work as well), followed by street cleaners. The little brooms made all the difference, ferreting out all the half-cloaked garbage dropped by tourists. Seems completely routine and normal and not authoritarian.
- squarefoot 8y agoSomeone should tell politicians about how radio waves propagate and the inverse square law: the cellphone kept in their pocket, very often more than one, expose them to a lot stronger EM fields than any tower they might have nearby. Or maybe they already know that, but banning or imposing restrictions on cellphones would destroy their careers.
- wongarsu 8y agoIn the EU the technical data of any phone already include a "radiation value" that measures your radiation exposure from using the phone. So regardless of whether this is something to worry about, it's aready covered by existing legislation. Cellpone towers are also different in that you can't choose not to expose yourself to them. In contrast you can choose not to get a mobile.
- mateo1 8y agoIs there a good (and short) technical summary of the 5G specifications? I've seen some (very disturbing) values of 20W/square meter reported. Is this true?
- w0mbat 8y agoIt looks like there are a couple of disinformation campaigns against cellphone infrastructure and particularly 5G right now. One is aimed at retargeting environmentalists to fight harmless cell towers instead of bothering industry by fighting global warming. The other looks like the usual Russian campaign to slow down the tech progress of other nations. For example there was a widely shared story that a 5G test killed a flock of birds in The Hague, which was completely false (check Snopes).
- zzzcpan 8y agoAlso could be coming from competing industries. Like you can find articles from ISP, telco suppliers in their own media pushing propaganda about harmful wifi without even bothering to hide that the whole thing is completely fabricated.
- xchip 8y agoCan you explain why we need 5G when 4G is already working very well?
- zzzcpan 8y agoAs consumers we don't need it. If it was up to us we would never agree to invest so much into this tech for so little gain. But all those giant corporations always want to sell you more devices, more expensive services, show you ads faster, track you and spy on you better, make more excuses to raise prices, harm competition, etc.
- w0mbat 8y ago4G is very patchy in some urban areas and doesn't give quite the speed needed to make it so you don't need Wi-Fi/broadband at home. 5G has a hierarchy of connections at different frequencies to give better coverage.
- xchip 8y ago1) Your eyes and testes are at risk "Two areas of the body, the eyes and the testes, are particularly vulnerable to RF heating because of the relative lack of available blood flow to dissipate the excess heat load." source: https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/electromagnetic-compatibility-division/radio-frequency-safety/faq/rf-safety#Q5 https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/electromagnetic-c... 2) The WHO has an article written in 2014 that says: "Several studies investigating potential health effects in children and adolescents are underway." I'd say that the lack of updates 2 years later is concerning. source: https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/electromagnetic-fields-and-public-health-mobile-phones https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/electrom...