10 ms·

If it makes you feel any better, not everywhere is like that. I work at a mid sized technology consulting company on the east coast, and I've heard multiple ma

by dx87 8y ago

If it makes you feel any better, not everywhere is like that. I work at a mid sized technology consulting company on the east coast, and I've heard multiple managers say that they hate when they have to manage developers from the west coast. My manager told us about a time she got a nasty email from the lead developer of a team because she started an email with "Hey guys" instead of a gender neutral greeting.

cube2222 8y ago
Just saying, guys in the plural is gender neutral. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/guy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/guy
- moultano 8y ago
  How many guys have you dated?
  - muchachos 8y ago
    Is it that some would prefer we only speak in gender neutral esperanto? Many languages operate with a defacto indeterminate/masculine combination gender as default. With no harm implied, it presumes that, as with opinions, everyone has an asshole, and you can bet their shit stinks, and that's all you really need to know about anyone, when push comes to shove. Assume all strangers are diseased and untouchable.
  - darpa_escapee 8y ago
    Context matters.
  - EGreg 8y ago
    “You guys” is gender neutral.
smelendez 8y ago
That is regional, though. I'm from New York and I've addressed groups of older female relatives as "you guys" without anyone batting an eye. In other parts of the country that's not common and people see "guys" as gendered, and people feel like you're forgetting they're there. The word "dude" as a form of address is gender neutral and business appropriate some places and not others. It's a hard problem: Y'all works some places but sounds goofy and affected in others. Same with "folks."
- mwfunk 8y ago
  I've lived in the Rust Belt, the southeast, and California for big chunks of my life and you're right on about regionalisms. For language or social norms in general, all that matters is how something's taken, not what was meant by it. If I know that some phrase is really uncommon or has different shades of meaning in a different part of the country or a different part of the world, I also know that if I use that phrase in that other place, it will get interpreted differently from what it means to me. It can be frustrating if I haven't yet picked up on the differences, but it's just the nature of communication. I have also tried to hang on to "y'all" and "folks" since moving to the west coast. "Folks" is a harder sell though, when I use it feels more like an affectation. But that's my perception of others' perceptions. Maybe I'm pulling off "folks" without realizing it. But "y'all" has more staying power, because it's a legitimately useful term that's otherwise missing from the English language.
  - suppressingfire 8y ago
    "you all" or "youse" can work as reasonable alternatives. I haven't tried "tons" since I've never actually heard it "used in anger." One less fraught, but equally confusing terms are "a couple" vs. "a few" vs. "a handful" (some believe "couple" = 2 whereas others treat it and the others as explicitly more fuzzy). Often it's best to just assume as little context as possible and be a little more explicit and verbose.
    - mwfunk 8y ago
      Also Pittsburgh gets an honorable mention- they have "yinz" instead of y'all or youse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz
- EGreg 8y ago
  Hey everyone Hey everybody! Listen up people All, What each of you needs to do... I have a task for all of you Let’s all have a great time Alright gentlemen and lady, Everyone on the team should read this This applies to everyone on the team Any person on the team can do xyz If you see something, say something Thou hast best checkest thyself, ‘ere thee wreckest thyself!
laughinghan 8y ago
It's funny, the mind-boggling sensitivity definitely goes both ways. I've known people who received direct but totally polite feedback suggesting they use one of many delightful gender neutral greetings instead of "guys", and became incredibly defensive. Probably described the feedback with a word similar to "nasty".
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  There's nothing "polite" about trying to create conflict out of trivial non-issues.
  - laughinghan 8y ago
    Since it's such a trivial non-issue, shouldn't it be easy to accommodate someone's preference without conflict? Do you believe that anyone who's ever expressed a preference on a trivial non-issue was deliberately trying to create conflict?
  - moultano 8y ago
    You don't get to call things "trivial non-issues" when by default they all tilt your way.
astura 8y ago
What about the email was "nasty?"
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
Strange, I consider "guys" to be gender neutral. Presumably "guys and gals" would be offensive to non-binary folk? So what's the acceptable format? "guys, gals, and... others?"
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  "Hello", "good morning/afternoon/evening". In Japanese, "Ohio/Konichiwa", in German "Guten tag" etc.
- astura 8y ago
  All, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Team, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Everyone, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Good Afternoon/Morning, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Staff, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. I just quickly browsed through my emails I've received this year (coworkers, customers, vendors) and that covers all the ones I've received. All of those are perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't be personally use "guys," "gals," or "guys and gals" in a non-friend situation.
  - MRD85 8y ago
    All of those comes across far more formally than "guys", they remind me of a written order from a military officer (source: 10 years in the Army). For me "guys" seems far friendlier.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >So what's the acceptable format? "guys, gals, and... others?" Folks,...
veryworried 8y ago
I’ve heard the same protest that MITM attack should be changed to “person-in-the-middle” attack. From west coast professionals no doubt.
Jun8 8y ago
Despite what many people say, usage of you guys as non-gendered address, similar to the regional y'all, is rather well-established: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11816/is-guy-gender-neutral https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11816/is-guy-gen.... However, in corporate environments it's still a good maxim to be mindful of people who have non-standard sensibilities, e.g. I personally use you guys as email address only for all-male group of recipients.
MRD85 8y ago
Why aren't they respecting your diversity and cultural language? I mean this in a serious way. There is a clash here between your cultural language and their views on gendered language and they immediately got offended by cultural differences and tried to impose their culture on your manager.

by dx87 8y ago

cube2222 8y ago

Just saying, guys in the plural is gender neutral. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/guy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/guy

moultano 8y ago
How many guys have you dated?
- muchachos 8y ago
  Is it that some would prefer we only speak in gender neutral esperanto? Many languages operate with a defacto indeterminate/masculine combination gender as default. With no harm implied, it presumes that, as with opinions, everyone has an asshole, and you can bet their shit stinks, and that's all you really need to know about anyone, when push comes to shove. Assume all strangers are diseased and untouchable.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  Context matters.
- EGreg 8y ago
  “You guys” is gender neutral.

smelendez 8y ago

That is regional, though. I'm from New York and I've addressed groups of older female relatives as "you guys" without anyone batting an eye. In other parts of the country that's not common and people see "guys" as gendered, and people feel like you're forgetting they're there. The word "dude" as a form of address is gender neutral and business appropriate some places and not others. It's a hard problem: Y'all works some places but sounds goofy and affected in others. Same with "folks."

mwfunk 8y ago
I've lived in the Rust Belt, the southeast, and California for big chunks of my life and you're right on about regionalisms. For language or social norms in general, all that matters is how something's taken, not what was meant by it. If I know that some phrase is really uncommon or has different shades of meaning in a different part of the country or a different part of the world, I also know that if I use that phrase in that other place, it will get interpreted differently from what it means to me. It can be frustrating if I haven't yet picked up on the differences, but it's just the nature of communication. I have also tried to hang on to "y'all" and "folks" since moving to the west coast. "Folks" is a harder sell though, when I use it feels more like an affectation. But that's my perception of others' perceptions. Maybe I'm pulling off "folks" without realizing it. But "y'all" has more staying power, because it's a legitimately useful term that's otherwise missing from the English language.
- suppressingfire 8y ago
  "you all" or "youse" can work as reasonable alternatives. I haven't tried "tons" since I've never actually heard it "used in anger." One less fraught, but equally confusing terms are "a couple" vs. "a few" vs. "a handful" (some believe "couple" = 2 whereas others treat it and the others as explicitly more fuzzy). Often it's best to just assume as little context as possible and be a little more explicit and verbose.
  - mwfunk 8y ago
    Also Pittsburgh gets an honorable mention- they have "yinz" instead of y'all or youse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz
EGreg 8y ago
Hey everyone Hey everybody! Listen up people All, What each of you needs to do... I have a task for all of you Let’s all have a great time Alright gentlemen and lady, Everyone on the team should read this This applies to everyone on the team Any person on the team can do xyz If you see something, say something Thou hast best checkest thyself, ‘ere thee wreckest thyself!

laughinghan 8y ago

It's funny, the mind-boggling sensitivity definitely goes both ways. I've known people who received direct but totally polite feedback suggesting they use one of many delightful gender neutral greetings instead of "guys", and became incredibly defensive. Probably described the feedback with a word similar to "nasty".

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
There's nothing "polite" about trying to create conflict out of trivial non-issues.
- laughinghan 8y ago
  Since it's such a trivial non-issue, shouldn't it be easy to accommodate someone's preference without conflict? Do you believe that anyone who's ever expressed a preference on a trivial non-issue was deliberately trying to create conflict?
- moultano 8y ago
  You don't get to call things "trivial non-issues" when by default they all tilt your way.

astura 8y ago

What about the email was "nasty?"

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

Strange, I consider "guys" to be gender neutral. Presumably "guys and gals" would be offensive to non-binary folk? So what's the acceptable format? "guys, gals, and... others?"

killjoywashere 8y ago
"Hello", "good morning/afternoon/evening". In Japanese, "Ohio/Konichiwa", in German "Guten tag" etc.
astura 8y ago
All, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Team, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Everyone, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Good Afternoon/Morning, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. Staff, Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports. I just quickly browsed through my emails I've received this year (coworkers, customers, vendors) and that covers all the ones I've received. All of those are perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't be personally use "guys," "gals," or "guys and gals" in a non-friend situation.
- MRD85 8y ago
  All of those comes across far more formally than "guys", they remind me of a written order from a military officer (source: 10 years in the Army). For me "guys" seems far friendlier.
BeetleB 8y ago
>So what's the acceptable format? "guys, gals, and... others?" Folks,...

veryworried 8y ago

I’ve heard the same protest that MITM attack should be changed to “person-in-the-middle” attack. From west coast professionals no doubt.

Jun8 8y ago

Despite what many people say, usage of you guys as non-gendered address, similar to the regional y'all, is rather well-established: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11816/is-guy-gender-neutral https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11816/is-guy-gen.... However, in corporate environments it's still a good maxim to be mindful of people who have non-standard sensibilities, e.g. I personally use you guys as email address only for all-male group of recipients.

MRD85 8y ago

Why aren't they respecting your diversity and cultural language? I mean this in a serious way. There is a clash here between your cultural language and their views on gendered language and they immediately got offended by cultural differences and tried to impose their culture on your manager.