5 ms·

The point is with a managed service, none of your problems will be with the service. That's what the managed service is selling.

maxxxxx 8y ago
That's the promise but in reality every software has bugs, including managed services.
- diminoten 8y ago
  Not really, not anything like what you're describing. 12 outages since 2011, and none of them are anything like what you're describing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Amazon_Web_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Amazon_Web_Service...
  - bsagdiyev 8y ago
    We've moved from on-prem to AWS fully and we see random issues all the time while their status page shows all green, so I feel you probably have a small amount of resources in use with them or something, because what you're saying doesn't jive with what we see daily. I see you've also copy-pasted your response to other comments too, so I'll do the same with my response.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      I don't feel like copy/pasting all of our comments to each other, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that, thanks.
      - bsagdiyev 8y ago
        Then don't do it yourself. You're dead set on ignoring people whose experience is different than yours, wrapping yourself in an echo chamber of sorts and telling others they are wrong.
        diminoten 8y ago
        I'm not dead set on anything, I'm trying to have conversations with multiple people, not create an immutable record. And I don't think you know what an echo chamber is if you think one person can create one alone...
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    This is not about outages. There are many more things that can go wrong besides outages.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Sorry but if you don't know how to use/manage your AWS stack, that's not on AWS, that's on you. A bad workman blames his tools.
      - goostavos 8y ago
        Bro, what're you so upset about in this thread? That people had different experiences than you with AWS..?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        diminoten 8y ago
        I'm not upset, I'm simply pointing out that AWS isn't the problem in any of these examples, it's the various commenter's lack of understanding about how to work in AWS that's caused these problems. I don't think anyone is actually upset, do you? I certainly hope I haven't upset anyone... :/
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        When your hammer snaps in half, you don't blame yourself for not using two hammers. When the tool breaks under correct use, criticize the tool. Maybe the user should also have redundancy. The tool is still failing!
        diminoten 8y ago
        This analogy is what snapped in half, not the hammer. It's more like if your hammer says right on it, "YOU NEED A SECOND HAMMER" and this is true of all hammers, it's still not the hammer's fault you didn't bring a second hammer.
deathanatos 8y ago
I just finished a 2+ week support ticket w/ AWS. We were unable to connect over TLS to several of our instances, because the instance's hostname was not listed on the certificate. This is a niche bug that's trivially fixable if you own the service, but with AWS, it's a lot harder: you're going to need a technical rep who understands x509 — and nobody understands x509. I've found & reported a bug in RDS whereby spatial indexes just didn't work; merely hinting the server to not use the spatial index would return results, but hinting it to use the spatial index would get nothing. (Spatial indexes were, admittedly, brand new at the time.) I've had bugs w/ S3: technically the service is up, but trivial GETs from the bucket take 140 seconds to complete, rendering our service effectively down. I've found & worked w/ AWS to fix a bug in ELB's HTTP handling. All of these were problems with the service, since in each case it's failing to correctly implement some well-understood protocol. AWS is not perfect. (Still, it is worth it, IMO. But the parent is right: you are trading one set of issues for another, and it's worth knowing that and thinking about it and what is right for you.)
- diminoten 8y ago
  Okay, I'm sorry you thought I said AWS was perfect and bug free. I didn't, however, say that. I said (implied, really) it's better than anything you could possibly home brew. Nothing you've said here changes that. Further, didn't I say that it's trading one set of issues for another? Or at least, I explicitly agreed with that. I feel like you didn't read what I wrote honestly, and kind of came in with your own agenda. All I ever said was that the issues you trade off are orchestration issues vs. operational issues, and operational issues are 10x harder than orchestration issues because you don't get to decide when to work on operational issues, you tend to have to deal with them when they happen.
  - frankchn 8y ago
    You wrote “The point is with a managed service, none of your problems will be with the service.” What deathanatos wrote sounds awfully like problems with the service to me. I don’t think S3 taking 100+ seconds to respond to a GET request can be solved by orchestration alone.
msla 8y ago
> The point is with a managed service, none of your problems will be with the service. That's what the managed service is selling. Until the managed service simply goes away, of course, taking your data with it.

maxxxxx 8y ago

That's the promise but in reality every software has bugs, including managed services.

diminoten 8y ago
Not really, not anything like what you're describing. 12 outages since 2011, and none of them are anything like what you're describing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Amazon_Web_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Amazon_Web_Service...
- bsagdiyev 8y ago
  We've moved from on-prem to AWS fully and we see random issues all the time while their status page shows all green, so I feel you probably have a small amount of resources in use with them or something, because what you're saying doesn't jive with what we see daily. I see you've also copy-pasted your response to other comments too, so I'll do the same with my response.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    I don't feel like copy/pasting all of our comments to each other, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that, thanks.
    - bsagdiyev 8y ago
      Then don't do it yourself. You're dead set on ignoring people whose experience is different than yours, wrapping yourself in an echo chamber of sorts and telling others they are wrong.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        I'm not dead set on anything, I'm trying to have conversations with multiple people, not create an immutable record. And I don't think you know what an echo chamber is if you think one person can create one alone...
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  This is not about outages. There are many more things that can go wrong besides outages.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Sorry but if you don't know how to use/manage your AWS stack, that's not on AWS, that's on you. A bad workman blames his tools.
    - goostavos 8y ago
      Bro, what're you so upset about in this thread? That people had different experiences than you with AWS..?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - diminoten 8y ago
        I'm not upset, I'm simply pointing out that AWS isn't the problem in any of these examples, it's the various commenter's lack of understanding about how to work in AWS that's caused these problems. I don't think anyone is actually upset, do you? I certainly hope I haven't upset anyone... :/
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        When your hammer snaps in half, you don't blame yourself for not using two hammers. When the tool breaks under correct use, criticize the tool. Maybe the user should also have redundancy. The tool is still failing!
        diminoten 8y ago
        This analogy is what snapped in half, not the hammer. It's more like if your hammer says right on it, "YOU NEED A SECOND HAMMER" and this is true of all hammers, it's still not the hammer's fault you didn't bring a second hammer.

deathanatos 8y ago

I just finished a 2+ week support ticket w/ AWS. We were unable to connect over TLS to several of our instances, because the instance's hostname was not listed on the certificate. This is a niche bug that's trivially fixable if you own the service, but with AWS, it's a lot harder: you're going to need a technical rep who understands x509 — and nobody understands x509. I've found & reported a bug in RDS whereby spatial indexes just didn't work; merely hinting the server to not use the spatial index would return results, but hinting it to use the spatial index would get nothing. (Spatial indexes were, admittedly, brand new at the time.) I've had bugs w/ S3: technically the service is up, but trivial GETs from the bucket take 140 seconds to complete, rendering our service effectively down. I've found & worked w/ AWS to fix a bug in ELB's HTTP handling. All of these were problems with the service, since in each case it's failing to correctly implement some well-understood protocol. AWS is not perfect. (Still, it is worth it, IMO. But the parent is right: you are trading one set of issues for another, and it's worth knowing that and thinking about it and what is right for you.)

diminoten 8y ago
Okay, I'm sorry you thought I said AWS was perfect and bug free. I didn't, however, say that. I said (implied, really) it's better than anything you could possibly home brew. Nothing you've said here changes that. Further, didn't I say that it's trading one set of issues for another? Or at least, I explicitly agreed with that. I feel like you didn't read what I wrote honestly, and kind of came in with your own agenda. All I ever said was that the issues you trade off are orchestration issues vs. operational issues, and operational issues are 10x harder than orchestration issues because you don't get to decide when to work on operational issues, you tend to have to deal with them when they happen.
- frankchn 8y ago
  You wrote “The point is with a managed service, none of your problems will be with the service.” What deathanatos wrote sounds awfully like problems with the service to me. I don’t think S3 taking 100+ seconds to respond to a GET request can be solved by orchestration alone.

msla 8y ago

> The point is with a managed service, none of your problems will be with the service. That's what the managed service is selling. Until the managed service simply goes away, of course, taking your data with it.