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Filing Your Taxes Is an Expensive Time Sink. That’s Not an Accident

177 points by scottie_m 8y ago

emptybits 8y ago
It's painful here in Canada, too. I read passages like this about civilized countries, also heavily socialized like my country, and am envious: > "Netherlands, the procedure is simple ... Dutch citizens can file their taxes in minutes ... in Sweden, 72 percent of taxpayers say filing taxes is easy" I enjoy what I receive from paying my taxes. Please make it easier.
- cpncrunch 8y ago
  If you use software such as ufile, it is pretty easy in Canada.
  - emptybits 8y ago
    Thanks. I generally use an accountant because with some investments and side businesses I am (overly?) concerned about making an error. I'm considering SimpleTax this year.[0] No affiliation but I'm a sucker for a scrappy startup. [0] https://simpletax.ca https://simpletax.ca
- smnrchrds 8y ago
  > It's painful here in Canada, too Is it? With SimpleTax [0] and Auto-fill [1][2], tax filing for an average person (with a bunch of T4s and T5s, some RRSP contribution, etc.) shouldn't take more than 30 minutes. That's how much I have spent on preparing my taxes every year since Auto-fill was introduced, even though I had to input T2202As by hand. [0] https://simpletax.ca/ https://simpletax.ca/ [1] https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/about-auto-fill-return.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/... [2] https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use-afr https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use-afr
- mrmuagi 8y ago
  What do you use for your taxes? I used SimpleTax and it was pretty easy this year.
jostmey 8y ago
The screwed up taxes is a symptom of a dysfunctional government. The fix is to address the root cause--reducing excessive lobbying that seems to control the government and implementing a direct democracy that puts the government better under the people's control (it's time to replace the electoral college).
- mxschumacher 8y ago
  I'm not sure it as simple as blaming lobbyism or the electoral college. In France and Germany filing taxes is also an insanely painful procedure. There are massive bureaucratic institutions and processes that need to be changed, huge IT systems to be created and maintained (doesn't the IRS use magnetic tape??) and laws to be adjusted. Making complex things simple is one of the hardest jobs out there.
  - zaphod4prez 8y ago
    The above comment by moviuro, who seems to be from France, directly contradicts your claim. "1. That's how it's done in France AFAICT. In April/May we get the pre-filled form on our tax site [0,1] and make sure it's ok, then tick a box. 2. We also have a website for that (though it's probably just a glorified multiplication and graph) [2] [0] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier [1] it looks like https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim.. https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim.... [2] https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/" https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/"
    - johannes1234321 8y ago
      I don't know the French situation, but for Germany: If you are an arbitrary employee with only a salary and maybe a savings account you don't have to do anything. The employer will file salary taxes, the bank will file taxes on interests. At the end of the year they send summaries and that can be it. As soon as you have income from other sources (i.e. self-employed work etc.), want to deduce more than 1000€ etc. you have to get into the paperwork and then it can become quite complex if you want to really take all benefits in.
grigjd3 8y ago
I was particularly entertained by the tax forms this year. The 1040 is now only half a page, but there are several other required forms that didn't exist last year.
Reedx 8y ago
It's crazy we still don't get a pre-filled out form that you can simply verify and sign. Done. Amend if needed. Bonus: An option to indicate where ~5% of your taxes goes to.
- alfonsodev 8y ago
  in Spain we have that option, we can get a draft electronically an accept it, but still is far from a user friendly experience
- moviuro 8y ago
  1. That's how it's done in France AFAICT. In April/May we get the pre-filled form on our tax site [0,1] and make sure it's ok, then tick a box. 2. We also have a website for that (though it's probably just a glorified multiplication and graph) [2] [0] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier [1] it looks like https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/simplifie/index.htm https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim... [2] https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/ https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/
  - gambiting 8y ago
    In UK there is not even a box to tick. Vast majority of people don't ever file a tax return themselves, I've recently had a discussion with someone who has worked in the UK for 15 years and he was surprised to hear that tax returns are even a thing - it's so automatic that he has never even thought about it.
    - moviuro 8y ago
      There are still some things I had to fix, for instance: support payments from my parents, which are tax-deductible for them, and that I have to declare; the fact I got in a PACS [0]. If I moved abroad, I'd be worried some things like that get missed for whatever reason ;) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_solidarity_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_solidarity_pact
CodeSheikh 8y ago
Filing taxes is a complicated process. Not showing where the tax money is spent is a simple process -- they just don't tell you.
1123581321 8y ago
Taxes are extracted during payroll and that’s a very easy process for individuals. The tax return is just an adjustment. It’s an annoying process to get a direct deposit for at least as many people as it is an annoying process to send a check. If I were a strategist in charge in making taxes hurt, I would try to help people understand how much bigger their paychecks could be. Please read this comment as politically neutral.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  I look at it, and my monthly income tax is as much as my rent. It hurts :(
  - gumby 8y ago
    Your rent just pays for a place to live, while your taxes pay for many many things all over the country.
    - noblethrasher 8y ago
      Rent lets you live in a house; taxes let you live in a civilization.
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      I'm not saying it's not justified, specially when i have seen my family friend's life being saved without ruining them financially because of free healthcare, i was just replying to the last sentence of OP. It's justified and i'm still allowed to hurt a bit by seeing the amount of tax i pay.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    You probably know this, but it is possible to set things up so that zero taxes are taken out of your paycheck. Now, come April 15th, you will owe those taxes, but if you have an idea or know what that amount will be (in theory, you should be able to know it exactly), then... ...you can elect to not take those taxes out, and instead via your bank or employer have that percentage of your check put into a savings account of some sort. Then you can let that money sit and accrue interest (and laugh at the small return), or use it to invest (which has a greater risk, because if you invest wrong, now you've lost that money and you still need to pay it back at the end of the tax year). If this sounds interesting to you, then (unless you already have the experience) I would look into some form of small time investing, or other financial instruments for wealth accumulation from which you can still withdraw an amount at the time you need to pay your taxes. Assuming you can find something with a decent return over a year's period. Which is probably the most difficult part of it all.
andbberger 8y ago
Just one more tax on the poor edit: 'tax', I am not being literal
- ratsmack 8y ago
  If the US went to a flat tax, would the "poor" still be taxed unfairly?
  - andbberger 8y ago
    Sure if it's still as difficult to file as it is now. I'm not talking about a literal tax
  - tstrimple 8y ago
    Yes. Fair doesn't necessarily mean equal. A 10% tax could eat up literally all the disposable income of someone who is barely scraping by, but is hardly noticed by a person who is bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
    - jniedrauer 8y ago
      In a fair society, it would become more and more challenging to move up the economic ladder as you reach higher levels. In our society, life gets easier as you move up. Beyond a certain threshold, you can set up a self-maintaining rent seeking empire and stop working entirely, while your wealth accumulation continues to accelerate.
  - clarkmoody 8y ago
    Well, you've got dozens of different taxes out there, and most of them are regressive. A "flat tax" income tax would probably have a lower bound number below which your taxes scale linearly down to zero. But tweaking the income tax does nothing for the other payroll extractions. Or the gasoline excise tax. Or the sales tax. Or property tax (paid through rent). Or tariffs. Or the hidden tax on the everyone: inflation. That paycheck doesn't go quite as far each year, does it? Beyond that, you've got land-use controls and building restrictions that artificially drive up the cost of housing close to job centers. Then school zones create more barriers. You'll spend more time commuting, which means the rest of your life is more difficult. And buying a car is more expensive as the regulatory burden on auto-makers increases year after year. Unfortunately, this is where many say, "Well the government just needs to help those in need." So taxes go up. Rent control is added. Rinse & repeat.
cjslep 8y ago
This was my first year doing my own Swiss taxes (US citizen in CH). Even though I only know German to an A2 level, the free software provided by the Canton and the instructions on how to fill out the return completely guided me with no problems, even through the additional forms. In addition, as a side effect I have accurate numbers for my income, my interest payments, my wealth, and my debts. The US side of things has been... not the same experience.
- lukeqsee 8y ago
  I’m in the exact same position as you (first year filing taxes in CH as a US citizen). I filed for an extension because I’m waiting for AHV to be resolved due to some ambiguities in my tax status (employed vs self employed), but I’ve read the paper form and it’s so straightforward. My friends here are so confused when I talk about US taxes and ask questions from that perspective—my questions make no sense because it’s just obvious how to do here vs the US where you have to hunt for every tiny little detail. If you ever want to meet up and compare notes as a US expat in CH, let me know! Email in profile.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
Tax prep lobbying at work. I’d love to know how much H&R and TurboTax spend on keeping things as is.
- locklock 8y ago
  A couple million dollars a year [1]. It's always interesting to me how relatively little money it takes to make life objectively worse for everyone else in the country while making a small number of people richer. For the cost of a nice house or a low-budget indie film you can make sure taxes are difficult to file for everyone. Of course there's more to the influence these companies have than the dollar value they spend per year but still, it ain't that much money. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...
  - tumblen 8y ago
    That makes me wonder if there could be a model of some sort of "People's Lobby" where one could set up a fund that individuals could contribute to in order to lobby for/against something. Probably more complicated than that and corporations would respond in kind. But it does seem like giving citizens the ability to compete in the lobbying space only makes sense.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Isn’t that more or less what donor-funded political organizations like the ACLU and the NRA do?
- briffle 8y ago
  I used to do IT work for a very large (>5000 employee) tax/audit firm. They sent out memos at the time telling associates to encourage Obamacare as much as possible in their communities, and to encourage amendments making it more complex, because then they got to bill $250/hour per person to help companies unravel that complexity... I am very glad I am no longer there.
jkingsbery 8y ago
"...and Republicans’ long anti-tax crusade." That seems like an uncharitable characterization of a group that has argued for a simpler tax code with generally fewer loop holes (as opposed to an elaborate tax code that no one can understand, with a pre-filled form that in theory one could double check but in practice few would check).
- alexandercrohde 8y ago
  Anybody who doesn't support the Buffett rule isn't anti-loophole imho.
  - bogle 8y ago
    So to be against loopholes you must support the 30% tax rule on incomes over USD 1m? I feel this conflates tax avoidance with having a very high income. Mr Buffett for one might be upset at the implication.
- ryguytilidie 8y ago
  "...and Republicans’ long anti-tax crusade." "uncharitable characterization of a group that has argued for a simpler tax code with generally fewer loop holes" Fewer loopholes for middle and lower class folks? Yes. Repealing the estate tax is very literally a new loophole that allows the rich to keep more money while closing that pesky mortgage interest deduction for the middle class. Taxes are just a way of redistributing money. Calling a party pro-tax because theyre moving the burden from one group to another is...interesting.
  - dnautics 8y ago
    can you explain how taxes redistribute money? Because most of the beneficiaries of government spending are already rich.
    - jpttsn 8y ago
      You're saying a larger number of rich people than non-rich people benefit from government spending? Can that possibly be true, if wealth distribution is unequal?
dec0dedab0de 8y ago
I hate filing taxes so much. I wish we would switch to purely sales tax and corporate tax. I know the arguments against them, but I just don't want to do paper work.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  I have never had to do any income tax paperwork. It’s not intrinsic to the concept of income tax, just a feature of the particular implementation in your country.
  - dec0dedab0de 8y ago
    That would be fantastic, but I also don't particularly like the government having a list of where everyone works.
    - tallanvor 8y ago
      Your employer automatically files your W2 or related documentation with the government as it is, so they already know where everyone works.
- mikeash 8y ago
  It would put a crushing burden on those people who could least withstand it, but as long as you can avoid paperwork....
  - mac01021 8y ago
    Must it be a crushing burden on the poor? I'm not advocating for a purely consumption based tax system but, if we were to have one, it seems to me that a small amount of ingenuity in the design of the tax scheme could mitigate that problem almost entirely.
  - dec0dedab0de 8y ago
    Right, it was a flippant remark meant to express exasperation in one particular thing. Not a well thought out policy proposal. Although, when you say "a crushing burden on those people who could least withstand it" are you assuming I am suggesting a flat sales tax? It is possible to have a federal sales tax that has categories, with different percentage scales. So maybe a bag of rice has 0%, pork fried rice from the local Chinese food place has a %5 sales tax, and Lobster risotto from a fancy restaurant has a %50 sales tax. All I am suggesting is the burden of filing taxes should be pushed to businesses who already have to deal with accountants and lawyers and whatnot.
skizm 8y ago
The worst part about taxes is that I never know if I did them correctly since the feedback loop is up to 3 years. Just shoot them off into the ether and cross your fingers you don't get a giant bill next year. The first time I filed, I had not updated my W4 soon enough after moving and owed NYC like $4k in taxes which came up around 18 months after I filed. The following year the software I was using said I owed around $10k in taxes, which I was pretty sure was wrong, so I went to an accountant and they did it for me and said I owed nothing. Even after all that, there is no way to know who is right until 3 years from now (IRS theoretically doesn't look back more than 3 years for individual returns).
- jraines 8y ago
  Idle NY tax thought -- it's wild that you have to file a NY return just because the company you work for is based there -- seems weird that other states put up with that (not that it takes revenues away, but seems like it forces an additional paperwork/accounting burden on them)
  - jmole 8y ago
    you don't have to file a NY return if you didn't live in NY during the tax year.
    - rhcom2 8y ago
      I don't think that's true. I've never lived in NY but commuted in from NJ for multiple years and always had to file both states.
      - WkndTriathlete 8y ago
        I don't know if it's true for NY, but many people live in western Wisconsin and commute to St. Paul / Minneapolis in Minnesota, and none of those people are required to file income tax returns in Minnesota. They file only Wisconsin returns.
jwr 8y ago
If you live in the US and you think your taxes are bad, you haven't seen anything yet. The IRS starts to really make your life miserable once you move out of the country and live as an expat. The reporting requirements (FBAR and FATCA) border on ridiculous. As an example you need to report all your financial accounts, interest on them with no minimums, you have to know the maximum amount in each account over the course of a year, and BTW, if you are a shareholder in a non-public company, that company's statement goes into your tax filing, too. Preparing your tax return becomes a major project that you do once a year, and you really have to pay a specialized company to do it for you, because there are so many pitfalls. The part that I found most surprising is that in the US there is basically no way for an individual to read the law and follow it. The law is way too complex and murky. As a contrast to that, in most countries that adopted German law principles, it is perfectly normal for a person to go read the law if in doubt.
- jmole 8y ago
  Those laws were written to make sure the government gets their tax money from people who are way wealthier than you. that's why the law is nearly incomprehensible: it's a compromise between lobbyists of moneyed anti-tax interests and those who are trying to solve legitimate tax dodging problems that arise with expats and international wealth in general.
- lukeqsee 8y ago
  This. I've spent at least $2000 this year to figure out how to make this work—and I'm going to spend more to actually fill and send the forms off. . . The additional requirements of the recent tax legislation which make it effectively impossible to own a foreign corporation (as an American living in said foreign country) and retain earnings according to the corporation's "home" country's tax laws is even more ridiculous. The IRS demands 10-20% by fiat disregarding all international tax law.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  The FinCEN (FBAR etc.) stuff is the troublesome stuff, the IRS is actually very easy to work with and the forms are not difficult to file once you know what you're doing (you can go to a cross-border professional filer the first time around to get a handle on it, and then just follow the memos about changes to the procedure each year). As a Canada-U.S. dual citizen I used to find it very difficult to file both, but I think it's just a knowledge gap. The IRS has obligations to you which you'd be laughed out of the room for attempting to exercise with the CRA, so there are positives, even if the tax codes and anti-money-laundering procedures are somewhat onerous. Americans are (in my opinion, excessively) concerned about money laundering and "dark money", so the result is that money is accounted for when Americans control it abroad. The procedures stem from that desire to account for holdings and transactions of Americans abroad: reporting any transactions with other U.S. persons abroad, reporting bank accounts which exceeded 10,000 USD at a credible exchange rate (the IRS posts their own) for the time during which it exceeded 10,000 USD, etc. Evevn here in this thread, you see people concerned that somebody who gets rich in Canada, using Canadian infrastructure and capital, may not be paying "their fair share" of U.S. taxes, which is pretty ridiculous if you imagine the injustice of double taxation that entails. I might make enough money one of these coming years that I have no prudent choice except to become resident in the U.S. to avoid these tax peculiarities.
timwaagh 8y ago
the article uses the netherlands as an example of how its supposed to be done. the problem in the netherlands is that there are some things you are legally entitled to, but that aren't on your tax app. like 'averaging' in case of varying income. Dutch tax law is not so simple as implied. also i'm supposed to be paying wealth tax over the part of the property i'm not using as my own living space (i rent out part of it). right now it is impossible to do this. saves me a bit but it could land me in trouble as well.
deeg 8y ago
Is there any reason we don't require the government to create software that largely does the taxes for us? They have the W2s, etc. and it seems like they could fill most of the forms out. We'd just need to set the deductions.
- dguo 8y ago
  Tax prep companies lobby strongly against it. See https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre... The argument they try to make is that the government could take advantage of its citizens. As in, it wouldn't be in their interest to reduce our taxes as much as possible.
  - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
    > it wouldn't be in their interest to reduce our taxes as much as possible The thing is,that's the exact reason most private tax preparers say not to us H&R block. They only take the most conservative deductions, etc.
ams6110 8y ago
This story is disingenuous. For people with "simple" tax situations (no itemized deductions, etc) the forms are already very simple. The scenario they paint with chasing down form after form simply does not happen for most people. For most people it's one page. But the idea that your taxes can be pre-computed by the IRS is fantasy beyond that, unless the tax code is significantly changed. Sure they know your W2 income and some other standard stuff. How do they know your self-employment or business income? How much you gave to charity? How do they know what unreimbursed expenses you had? How do they know how many kids you have? How do they know your marital status? I guess most of that could be addressed by just eliminating all deductions and allowances but even at that there are a lot of things they simply cannot possibly know until you, the taxpayer, tell them.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mancerayder 8y ago
  In the UK you only have to file if you have particularities like that which you describe. For everyone else, the PAYE system seems to deduct the right amount ("withholding" in the U.S.). It's simple enough that not everyone needs to file: https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send-a-tax-return https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send...
- dmitriid 8y ago
  Somehow all the stuff that’s trivial in any other civilized country becomes “fantasy” in the US
- bwanab 8y ago
  Not really. The IRS really does know your W2 and all your bank and investment income. If you've worked for several different companies, you often have scattered investments that you have to chase down that, in fact, they already know. There's really no reason why they couldn't provide you with pre-filled forms for all that stuff. Sure, there's stuff they don't and can't know, but for most people those are the simple things (how many children, marital status.
- 8y ago
jpttsn 8y ago
It's cheaper to offer a 10% gift voucher than a 10% discount. Where I live, most people approve a pre-filled statement. This boosts tax revenue, because people don't think twice about deductions that are not pre-filled. It's more convenient not to do your own math, if you trust the actor who does the math for you.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Well, unless you're poor, at least you likely don't have to worry about being audited. The IRS is too busy auditing the poor and minorities to worry about anyone else. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/4/3/18292741/irs-tax-audit-eitc-black-belt https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/4/3/18292741/irs-tax... I really wish, as a country, we could stop beating up on the poor.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  I'm not saying that conclusion is incorrect, but I'm not convinced by the article's preemptive rebuttal to the population heatmap counterargument. To its credit the article mentions it: > The sociologist Kieran Healy has joked that most data visualization maps of the US show one of two things: population density or the percentage of the population that’s black. This is decidedly one of the latter maps, with the notable additions of heavily Latino counties in southern Texas and Indian reservations in South Dakota and Montana. However...statistics are pernicious. This is an extraordinary accusation, and before I accept it as true I'd like to see more due diligence to ensure there isn't (for example) a stray, superfluous correlation between population density and Hispanic/Black demographics at play here. With that aside, this looks like something that should definitely be investigated more thoroughly. Even if this is ultimately a side effect of minority groups being correlated with greater population density (and I don't know if that's true, to be clear), the ultimate consequence looks pretty negative.
clausok 8y ago
The Planet Money podcast just had an episode on this topic ("Joe Bankman, professor at Stanford, figured out a way to make filing your taxes easy and painless. Then the tax lobby found out about it.") https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  A professor figured it out? It's obvious, and what dozens of civilized countries do.
- FormFollowsFunc 8y ago
  Just listened to it. It kind of annoyed me how breezy they were - corporate interests and the Republicans making 120 million American lives miserable - ah it can't be helped.
jasonshen 8y ago
Andrew Yang, who was the 1st declared Democratic presidential candidate for 2020, has a whole policy around the strange aspects of US taxation, including automatic filing and getting a breakdown of where your money went. >> Instruct the IRS to implement a system whereby any American can opt into a program to have their taxes filed automatically. >> Instruct the IRS to coordinate with the Treasury to prepare a report on federal spending, and send each taxpayer a rundown of the actual amount of their taxes that went to each major spending area (e.g., domestic programs, foreign aid, military, etc). >> Increase the budget of the IRS by 50% to $16.2 billion and modernize it with the latest technology. Money spent on the IRS will almost certainly pay for itself many times over via better tax compliance and less wasted time of citizens. Running the country like a business means both taking care of constituents and collecting revenue as seamlessly and efficiently as possible. https://www.yang2020.com/policies/filing-income-taxes/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/filing-income-taxes/
- TheHypnotist 8y ago
  I'm not sure many people even think about how possible this is. What are the drawbacks? Aside from funding, what's stopping this from happening? I can already automatically import most forms from banks/financials/payroll companies into TurboTax. Why not skip the middle man?
  - JeremyBanks 8y ago
    FYI the UK is taking steps in this direction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Tax_Digital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Tax_Digital
    - OJFord 8y ago
      That's quite an understatement - a vast majority of _employees_ don't need tax to be digital or not because it's all done for them through PAYE (Pay As You Earn, i.e. deducted on your payslip before you see it) and other mechanisms anyway.
    - rlpb 8y ago
Causality1 8y ago
Filing your taxes is an expensive time sink if you're wealthy with a lot of assets. I'm not, and it takes me about ten minutes to file mine on the free website. Fill in my W-2, answer about ten questions, hit the "File" button, done.
josteink 8y ago
Many countries have more or less fully automated tax-systems. They are not time sinks, and that is by design. I’m happy with the local “IRS” using the newest technology to save me time and the country money.
Taniwha 8y ago
Here in NZ most people do not need to file - the tax system is deliberately simple, there are essentially no deductions/etc. Most people who have a single regular income will find that their employer has paid the exact correct amount of PAYE on their behalf, people who have multiple employers may receive a tax refund, they can file for it by filling out a 2 page online return (I think this year the IRD will start doing this for you, you'll just get a cheque in the mail) As an employer filing monthly PAYE is equally trivial, it can be done with 1 line in a spreadsheet - I spend 30 minutes a month paying bills/taxes/etc for my company
robomartin 8y ago
A fair tax system would be one where you are sent a bill every month and you allocate your money as you want it to be soent. Some baseline auto-allocation should be a part of this. Perhaps you control 75% and the rest is automatic. No tax filings and the IRS is reduced rather than grown into a larger monster. People don’t revolt about taxation because they never see the money. If people had to pay the bill themselves every month there would be riots in every city within a year or less.
- webninja 8y ago
  Monthly? Crazy talk. Once a year is plenty difficult and painful enough. (If you’re like me and got involved with bitcoins and shitcoins)
  - robomartin 8y ago
    I agree with you. My point is that people need to wake up and understand just how much they are giving up and what for. If they had to pay it as a monthly bill they would be compelled to question it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
RickJWagner 8y ago
I've long wondered why the government doesn't do the calculation first, then you have the right to appeal if you want a change. If they have the data to check the calculations you make, they have the data to do the calculation. I am deeply disappointed in the gratuitous attack on Republicans at the bottom of the article. Low for even the Atlantic, it shows this is not an unbiased source but rather a politically biased one.

177 points by scottie_m 8y ago

It's painful here in Canada, too. I read passages like this about civilized countries, also heavily socialized like my country, and am envious: > "Netherlands, the procedure is simple ... Dutch citizens can file their taxes in minutes ... in Sweden, 72 percent of taxpayers say filing taxes is easy" I enjoy what I receive from paying my taxes. Please make it easier.

cpncrunch 8y ago
If you use software such as ufile, it is pretty easy in Canada.
- emptybits 8y ago
  Thanks. I generally use an accountant because with some investments and side businesses I am (overly?) concerned about making an error. I'm considering SimpleTax this year.[0] No affiliation but I'm a sucker for a scrappy startup. [0] https://simpletax.ca https://simpletax.ca
smnrchrds 8y ago
> It's painful here in Canada, too Is it? With SimpleTax [0] and Auto-fill [1][2], tax filing for an average person (with a bunch of T4s and T5s, some RRSP contribution, etc.) shouldn't take more than 30 minutes. That's how much I have spent on preparing my taxes every year since Auto-fill was introduced, even though I had to input T2202As by hand. [0] https://simpletax.ca/ https://simpletax.ca/ [1] https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/about-auto-fill-return.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/... [2] https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use-afr https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use-afr
mrmuagi 8y ago
What do you use for your taxes? I used SimpleTax and it was pretty easy this year.

jostmey 8y ago

The screwed up taxes is a symptom of a dysfunctional government. The fix is to address the root cause--reducing excessive lobbying that seems to control the government and implementing a direct democracy that puts the government better under the people's control (it's time to replace the electoral college).

mxschumacher 8y ago
I'm not sure it as simple as blaming lobbyism or the electoral college. In France and Germany filing taxes is also an insanely painful procedure. There are massive bureaucratic institutions and processes that need to be changed, huge IT systems to be created and maintained (doesn't the IRS use magnetic tape??) and laws to be adjusted. Making complex things simple is one of the hardest jobs out there.
- zaphod4prez 8y ago
  The above comment by moviuro, who seems to be from France, directly contradicts your claim. "1. That's how it's done in France AFAICT. In April/May we get the pre-filled form on our tax site [0,1] and make sure it's ok, then tick a box. 2. We also have a website for that (though it's probably just a glorified multiplication and graph) [2] [0] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier [1] it looks like https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim.. https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim.... [2] https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/" https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/"
  - johannes1234321 8y ago
    I don't know the French situation, but for Germany: If you are an arbitrary employee with only a salary and maybe a savings account you don't have to do anything. The employer will file salary taxes, the bank will file taxes on interests. At the end of the year they send summaries and that can be it. As soon as you have income from other sources (i.e. self-employed work etc.), want to deduce more than 1000€ etc. you have to get into the paperwork and then it can become quite complex if you want to really take all benefits in.

grigjd3 8y ago

I was particularly entertained by the tax forms this year. The 1040 is now only half a page, but there are several other required forms that didn't exist last year.

Reedx 8y ago

It's crazy we still don't get a pre-filled out form that you can simply verify and sign. Done. Amend if needed. Bonus: An option to indicate where ~5% of your taxes goes to.

alfonsodev 8y ago
in Spain we have that option, we can get a draft electronically an accept it, but still is far from a user friendly experience
moviuro 8y ago
1. That's how it's done in France AFAICT. In April/May we get the pre-filled form on our tax site [0,1] and make sure it's ok, then tick a box. 2. We also have a website for that (though it's probably just a glorified multiplication and graph) [2] [0] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier [1] it looks like https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/simplifie/index.htm https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2019/sim... [2] https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/ https://aquoiserventmesimpots.gouv.fr/
- gambiting 8y ago
  In UK there is not even a box to tick. Vast majority of people don't ever file a tax return themselves, I've recently had a discussion with someone who has worked in the UK for 15 years and he was surprised to hear that tax returns are even a thing - it's so automatic that he has never even thought about it.
  - moviuro 8y ago
    There are still some things I had to fix, for instance: support payments from my parents, which are tax-deductible for them, and that I have to declare; the fact I got in a PACS [0]. If I moved abroad, I'd be worried some things like that get missed for whatever reason ;) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_solidarity_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_solidarity_pact

CodeSheikh 8y ago

Filing taxes is a complicated process. Not showing where the tax money is spent is a simple process -- they just don't tell you.

1123581321 8y ago

Taxes are extracted during payroll and that’s a very easy process for individuals. The tax return is just an adjustment. It’s an annoying process to get a direct deposit for at least as many people as it is an annoying process to send a check. If I were a strategist in charge in making taxes hurt, I would try to help people understand how much bigger their paychecks could be. Please read this comment as politically neutral.

parthdesai 8y ago
I look at it, and my monthly income tax is as much as my rent. It hurts :(
- gumby 8y ago
  Your rent just pays for a place to live, while your taxes pay for many many things all over the country.
  - noblethrasher 8y ago
    Rent lets you live in a house; taxes let you live in a civilization.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    I'm not saying it's not justified, specially when i have seen my family friend's life being saved without ruining them financially because of free healthcare, i was just replying to the last sentence of OP. It's justified and i'm still allowed to hurt a bit by seeing the amount of tax i pay.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  You probably know this, but it is possible to set things up so that zero taxes are taken out of your paycheck. Now, come April 15th, you will owe those taxes, but if you have an idea or know what that amount will be (in theory, you should be able to know it exactly), then... ...you can elect to not take those taxes out, and instead via your bank or employer have that percentage of your check put into a savings account of some sort. Then you can let that money sit and accrue interest (and laugh at the small return), or use it to invest (which has a greater risk, because if you invest wrong, now you've lost that money and you still need to pay it back at the end of the tax year). If this sounds interesting to you, then (unless you already have the experience) I would look into some form of small time investing, or other financial instruments for wealth accumulation from which you can still withdraw an amount at the time you need to pay your taxes. Assuming you can find something with a decent return over a year's period. Which is probably the most difficult part of it all.

andbberger 8y ago

Just one more tax on the poor edit: 'tax', I am not being literal

ratsmack 8y ago
If the US went to a flat tax, would the "poor" still be taxed unfairly?
- andbberger 8y ago
  Sure if it's still as difficult to file as it is now. I'm not talking about a literal tax
- tstrimple 8y ago
  Yes. Fair doesn't necessarily mean equal. A 10% tax could eat up literally all the disposable income of someone who is barely scraping by, but is hardly noticed by a person who is bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
  - jniedrauer 8y ago
    In a fair society, it would become more and more challenging to move up the economic ladder as you reach higher levels. In our society, life gets easier as you move up. Beyond a certain threshold, you can set up a self-maintaining rent seeking empire and stop working entirely, while your wealth accumulation continues to accelerate.
- clarkmoody 8y ago
  Well, you've got dozens of different taxes out there, and most of them are regressive. A "flat tax" income tax would probably have a lower bound number below which your taxes scale linearly down to zero. But tweaking the income tax does nothing for the other payroll extractions. Or the gasoline excise tax. Or the sales tax. Or property tax (paid through rent). Or tariffs. Or the hidden tax on the everyone: inflation. That paycheck doesn't go quite as far each year, does it? Beyond that, you've got land-use controls and building restrictions that artificially drive up the cost of housing close to job centers. Then school zones create more barriers. You'll spend more time commuting, which means the rest of your life is more difficult. And buying a car is more expensive as the regulatory burden on auto-makers increases year after year. Unfortunately, this is where many say, "Well the government just needs to help those in need." So taxes go up. Rent control is added. Rinse & repeat.

cjslep 8y ago

This was my first year doing my own Swiss taxes (US citizen in CH). Even though I only know German to an A2 level, the free software provided by the Canton and the instructions on how to fill out the return completely guided me with no problems, even through the additional forms. In addition, as a side effect I have accurate numbers for my income, my interest payments, my wealth, and my debts. The US side of things has been... not the same experience.

lukeqsee 8y ago
I’m in the exact same position as you (first year filing taxes in CH as a US citizen). I filed for an extension because I’m waiting for AHV to be resolved due to some ambiguities in my tax status (employed vs self employed), but I’ve read the paper form and it’s so straightforward. My friends here are so confused when I talk about US taxes and ask questions from that perspective—my questions make no sense because it’s just obvious how to do here vs the US where you have to hunt for every tiny little detail. If you ever want to meet up and compare notes as a US expat in CH, let me know! Email in profile.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

Tax prep lobbying at work. I’d love to know how much H&R and TurboTax spend on keeping things as is.

locklock 8y ago
A couple million dollars a year [1]. It's always interesting to me how relatively little money it takes to make life objectively worse for everyone else in the country while making a small number of people richer. For the cost of a nice house or a low-budget indie film you can make sure taxes are difficult to file for everyone. Of course there's more to the influence these companies have than the dollar value they spend per year but still, it ain't that much money. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...
- tumblen 8y ago
  That makes me wonder if there could be a model of some sort of "People's Lobby" where one could set up a fund that individuals could contribute to in order to lobby for/against something. Probably more complicated than that and corporations would respond in kind. But it does seem like giving citizens the ability to compete in the lobbying space only makes sense.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Isn’t that more or less what donor-funded political organizations like the ACLU and the NRA do?
briffle 8y ago
I used to do IT work for a very large (>5000 employee) tax/audit firm. They sent out memos at the time telling associates to encourage Obamacare as much as possible in their communities, and to encourage amendments making it more complex, because then they got to bill $250/hour per person to help companies unravel that complexity... I am very glad I am no longer there.

jkingsbery 8y ago

"...and Republicans’ long anti-tax crusade." That seems like an uncharitable characterization of a group that has argued for a simpler tax code with generally fewer loop holes (as opposed to an elaborate tax code that no one can understand, with a pre-filled form that in theory one could double check but in practice few would check).

alexandercrohde 8y ago
Anybody who doesn't support the Buffett rule isn't anti-loophole imho.
- bogle 8y ago
  So to be against loopholes you must support the 30% tax rule on incomes over USD 1m? I feel this conflates tax avoidance with having a very high income. Mr Buffett for one might be upset at the implication.
ryguytilidie 8y ago
"...and Republicans’ long anti-tax crusade." "uncharitable characterization of a group that has argued for a simpler tax code with generally fewer loop holes" Fewer loopholes for middle and lower class folks? Yes. Repealing the estate tax is very literally a new loophole that allows the rich to keep more money while closing that pesky mortgage interest deduction for the middle class. Taxes are just a way of redistributing money. Calling a party pro-tax because theyre moving the burden from one group to another is...interesting.
- dnautics 8y ago
  can you explain how taxes redistribute money? Because most of the beneficiaries of government spending are already rich.
  - jpttsn 8y ago
    You're saying a larger number of rich people than non-rich people benefit from government spending? Can that possibly be true, if wealth distribution is unequal?

dec0dedab0de 8y ago

I hate filing taxes so much. I wish we would switch to purely sales tax and corporate tax. I know the arguments against them, but I just don't want to do paper work.

Sharlin 8y ago
I have never had to do any income tax paperwork. It’s not intrinsic to the concept of income tax, just a feature of the particular implementation in your country.
- dec0dedab0de 8y ago
  That would be fantastic, but I also don't particularly like the government having a list of where everyone works.
  - tallanvor 8y ago
    Your employer automatically files your W2 or related documentation with the government as it is, so they already know where everyone works.
mikeash 8y ago
It would put a crushing burden on those people who could least withstand it, but as long as you can avoid paperwork....
- mac01021 8y ago
  Must it be a crushing burden on the poor? I'm not advocating for a purely consumption based tax system but, if we were to have one, it seems to me that a small amount of ingenuity in the design of the tax scheme could mitigate that problem almost entirely.
- dec0dedab0de 8y ago
  Right, it was a flippant remark meant to express exasperation in one particular thing. Not a well thought out policy proposal. Although, when you say "a crushing burden on those people who could least withstand it" are you assuming I am suggesting a flat sales tax? It is possible to have a federal sales tax that has categories, with different percentage scales. So maybe a bag of rice has 0%, pork fried rice from the local Chinese food place has a %5 sales tax, and Lobster risotto from a fancy restaurant has a %50 sales tax. All I am suggesting is the burden of filing taxes should be pushed to businesses who already have to deal with accountants and lawyers and whatnot.

skizm 8y ago

The worst part about taxes is that I never know if I did them correctly since the feedback loop is up to 3 years. Just shoot them off into the ether and cross your fingers you don't get a giant bill next year. The first time I filed, I had not updated my W4 soon enough after moving and owed NYC like $4k in taxes which came up around 18 months after I filed. The following year the software I was using said I owed around $10k in taxes, which I was pretty sure was wrong, so I went to an accountant and they did it for me and said I owed nothing. Even after all that, there is no way to know who is right until 3 years from now (IRS theoretically doesn't look back more than 3 years for individual returns).

jraines 8y ago
Idle NY tax thought -- it's wild that you have to file a NY return just because the company you work for is based there -- seems weird that other states put up with that (not that it takes revenues away, but seems like it forces an additional paperwork/accounting burden on them)
- jmole 8y ago
  you don't have to file a NY return if you didn't live in NY during the tax year.
  - rhcom2 8y ago
    I don't think that's true. I've never lived in NY but commuted in from NJ for multiple years and always had to file both states.
    - WkndTriathlete 8y ago
      I don't know if it's true for NY, but many people live in western Wisconsin and commute to St. Paul / Minneapolis in Minnesota, and none of those people are required to file income tax returns in Minnesota. They file only Wisconsin returns.

jwr 8y ago

If you live in the US and you think your taxes are bad, you haven't seen anything yet. The IRS starts to really make your life miserable once you move out of the country and live as an expat. The reporting requirements (FBAR and FATCA) border on ridiculous. As an example you need to report all your financial accounts, interest on them with no minimums, you have to know the maximum amount in each account over the course of a year, and BTW, if you are a shareholder in a non-public company, that company's statement goes into your tax filing, too. Preparing your tax return becomes a major project that you do once a year, and you really have to pay a specialized company to do it for you, because there are so many pitfalls. The part that I found most surprising is that in the US there is basically no way for an individual to read the law and follow it. The law is way too complex and murky. As a contrast to that, in most countries that adopted German law principles, it is perfectly normal for a person to go read the law if in doubt.

jmole 8y ago
Those laws were written to make sure the government gets their tax money from people who are way wealthier than you. that's why the law is nearly incomprehensible: it's a compromise between lobbyists of moneyed anti-tax interests and those who are trying to solve legitimate tax dodging problems that arise with expats and international wealth in general.
lukeqsee 8y ago
This. I've spent at least $2000 this year to figure out how to make this work—and I'm going to spend more to actually fill and send the forms off. . . The additional requirements of the recent tax legislation which make it effectively impossible to own a foreign corporation (as an American living in said foreign country) and retain earnings according to the corporation's "home" country's tax laws is even more ridiculous. The IRS demands 10-20% by fiat disregarding all international tax law.
microcolonel 8y ago
The FinCEN (FBAR etc.) stuff is the troublesome stuff, the IRS is actually very easy to work with and the forms are not difficult to file once you know what you're doing (you can go to a cross-border professional filer the first time around to get a handle on it, and then just follow the memos about changes to the procedure each year). As a Canada-U.S. dual citizen I used to find it very difficult to file both, but I think it's just a knowledge gap. The IRS has obligations to you which you'd be laughed out of the room for attempting to exercise with the CRA, so there are positives, even if the tax codes and anti-money-laundering procedures are somewhat onerous. Americans are (in my opinion, excessively) concerned about money laundering and "dark money", so the result is that money is accounted for when Americans control it abroad. The procedures stem from that desire to account for holdings and transactions of Americans abroad: reporting any transactions with other U.S. persons abroad, reporting bank accounts which exceeded 10,000 USD at a credible exchange rate (the IRS posts their own) for the time during which it exceeded 10,000 USD, etc. Evevn here in this thread, you see people concerned that somebody who gets rich in Canada, using Canadian infrastructure and capital, may not be paying "their fair share" of U.S. taxes, which is pretty ridiculous if you imagine the injustice of double taxation that entails. I might make enough money one of these coming years that I have no prudent choice except to become resident in the U.S. to avoid these tax peculiarities.

timwaagh 8y ago

the article uses the netherlands as an example of how its supposed to be done. the problem in the netherlands is that there are some things you are legally entitled to, but that aren't on your tax app. like 'averaging' in case of varying income. Dutch tax law is not so simple as implied. also i'm supposed to be paying wealth tax over the part of the property i'm not using as my own living space (i rent out part of it). right now it is impossible to do this. saves me a bit but it could land me in trouble as well.

deeg 8y ago

Is there any reason we don't require the government to create software that largely does the taxes for us? They have the W2s, etc. and it seems like they could fill most of the forms out. We'd just need to set the deductions.

dguo 8y ago
Tax prep companies lobby strongly against it. See https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre... The argument they try to make is that the government could take advantage of its citizens. As in, it wouldn't be in their interest to reduce our taxes as much as possible.
- amanaplanacanal 8y ago
  > it wouldn't be in their interest to reduce our taxes as much as possible The thing is,that's the exact reason most private tax preparers say not to us H&R block. They only take the most conservative deductions, etc.

ams6110 8y ago

This story is disingenuous. For people with "simple" tax situations (no itemized deductions, etc) the forms are already very simple. The scenario they paint with chasing down form after form simply does not happen for most people. For most people it's one page. But the idea that your taxes can be pre-computed by the IRS is fantasy beyond that, unless the tax code is significantly changed. Sure they know your W2 income and some other standard stuff. How do they know your self-employment or business income? How much you gave to charity? How do they know what unreimbursed expenses you had? How do they know how many kids you have? How do they know your marital status? I guess most of that could be addressed by just eliminating all deductions and allowances but even at that there are a lot of things they simply cannot possibly know until you, the taxpayer, tell them.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mancerayder 8y ago
In the UK you only have to file if you have particularities like that which you describe. For everyone else, the PAYE system seems to deduct the right amount ("withholding" in the U.S.). It's simple enough that not everyone needs to file: https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send-a-tax-return https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send...
dmitriid 8y ago
Somehow all the stuff that’s trivial in any other civilized country becomes “fantasy” in the US
bwanab 8y ago
Not really. The IRS really does know your W2 and all your bank and investment income. If you've worked for several different companies, you often have scattered investments that you have to chase down that, in fact, they already know. There's really no reason why they couldn't provide you with pre-filled forms for all that stuff. Sure, there's stuff they don't and can't know, but for most people those are the simple things (how many children, marital status.
8y ago

jpttsn 8y ago

It's cheaper to offer a 10% gift voucher than a 10% discount. Where I live, most people approve a pre-filled statement. This boosts tax revenue, because people don't think twice about deductions that are not pre-filled. It's more convenient not to do your own math, if you trust the actor who does the math for you.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

Well, unless you're poor, at least you likely don't have to worry about being audited. The IRS is too busy auditing the poor and minorities to worry about anyone else. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/4/3/18292741/irs-tax-audit-eitc-black-belt https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/4/3/18292741/irs-tax... I really wish, as a country, we could stop beating up on the poor.

throwawaymath 8y ago
I'm not saying that conclusion is incorrect, but I'm not convinced by the article's preemptive rebuttal to the population heatmap counterargument. To its credit the article mentions it: > The sociologist Kieran Healy has joked that most data visualization maps of the US show one of two things: population density or the percentage of the population that’s black. This is decidedly one of the latter maps, with the notable additions of heavily Latino counties in southern Texas and Indian reservations in South Dakota and Montana. However...statistics are pernicious. This is an extraordinary accusation, and before I accept it as true I'd like to see more due diligence to ensure there isn't (for example) a stray, superfluous correlation between population density and Hispanic/Black demographics at play here. With that aside, this looks like something that should definitely be investigated more thoroughly. Even if this is ultimately a side effect of minority groups being correlated with greater population density (and I don't know if that's true, to be clear), the ultimate consequence looks pretty negative.

clausok 8y ago

The Planet Money podcast just had an episode on this topic ("Joe Bankman, professor at Stanford, figured out a way to make filing your taxes easy and painless. Then the tax lobby found out about it.") https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...

mixmastamyk 8y ago
A professor figured it out? It's obvious, and what dozens of civilized countries do.
FormFollowsFunc 8y ago
Just listened to it. It kind of annoyed me how breezy they were - corporate interests and the Republicans making 120 million American lives miserable - ah it can't be helped.

jasonshen 8y ago

Andrew Yang, who was the 1st declared Democratic presidential candidate for 2020, has a whole policy around the strange aspects of US taxation, including automatic filing and getting a breakdown of where your money went. >> Instruct the IRS to implement a system whereby any American can opt into a program to have their taxes filed automatically. >> Instruct the IRS to coordinate with the Treasury to prepare a report on federal spending, and send each taxpayer a rundown of the actual amount of their taxes that went to each major spending area (e.g., domestic programs, foreign aid, military, etc). >> Increase the budget of the IRS by 50% to $16.2 billion and modernize it with the latest technology. Money spent on the IRS will almost certainly pay for itself many times over via better tax compliance and less wasted time of citizens. Running the country like a business means both taking care of constituents and collecting revenue as seamlessly and efficiently as possible. https://www.yang2020.com/policies/filing-income-taxes/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/filing-income-taxes/

TheHypnotist 8y ago
I'm not sure many people even think about how possible this is. What are the drawbacks? Aside from funding, what's stopping this from happening? I can already automatically import most forms from banks/financials/payroll companies into TurboTax. Why not skip the middle man?
- JeremyBanks 8y ago
  FYI the UK is taking steps in this direction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Tax_Digital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Tax_Digital
  - OJFord 8y ago
    That's quite an understatement - a vast majority of _employees_ don't need tax to be digital or not because it's all done for them through PAYE (Pay As You Earn, i.e. deducted on your payslip before you see it) and other mechanisms anyway.
  - rlpb 8y ago

Causality1 8y ago

Filing your taxes is an expensive time sink if you're wealthy with a lot of assets. I'm not, and it takes me about ten minutes to file mine on the free website. Fill in my W-2, answer about ten questions, hit the "File" button, done.

josteink 8y ago

Many countries have more or less fully automated tax-systems. They are not time sinks, and that is by design. I’m happy with the local “IRS” using the newest technology to save me time and the country money.

Taniwha 8y ago

Here in NZ most people do not need to file - the tax system is deliberately simple, there are essentially no deductions/etc. Most people who have a single regular income will find that their employer has paid the exact correct amount of PAYE on their behalf, people who have multiple employers may receive a tax refund, they can file for it by filling out a 2 page online return (I think this year the IRD will start doing this for you, you'll just get a cheque in the mail) As an employer filing monthly PAYE is equally trivial, it can be done with 1 line in a spreadsheet - I spend 30 minutes a month paying bills/taxes/etc for my company

robomartin 8y ago

A fair tax system would be one where you are sent a bill every month and you allocate your money as you want it to be soent. Some baseline auto-allocation should be a part of this. Perhaps you control 75% and the rest is automatic. No tax filings and the IRS is reduced rather than grown into a larger monster. People don’t revolt about taxation because they never see the money. If people had to pay the bill themselves every month there would be riots in every city within a year or less.

webninja 8y ago
Monthly? Crazy talk. Once a year is plenty difficult and painful enough. (If you’re like me and got involved with bitcoins and shitcoins)
- robomartin 8y ago
  I agree with you. My point is that people need to wake up and understand just how much they are giving up and what for. If they had to pay it as a monthly bill they would be compelled to question it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

RickJWagner 8y ago

I've long wondered why the government doesn't do the calculation first, then you have the right to appeal if you want a change. If they have the data to check the calculations you make, they have the data to do the calculation. I am deeply disappointed in the gratuitous attack on Republicans at the bottom of the article. Low for even the Atlantic, it shows this is not an unbiased source but rather a politically biased one.