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Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

151 points by ptr 8y ago

fmdud 8y ago
The book "Capitalist Realism" by Mark Fisher is very, very appropriate here
Cyclone_ 8y ago
But he doesn't mention where he's from?
- maggit 8y ago
  The author seems to be from Dallas, Texas, but the quote in the title is from another post: https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...
CoolGuySteve 8y ago
This article is blog spam, here's the actual link: https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...
- maggit 8y ago
  I disagree. The article quotes and links to three different articles (the first of which is the one you have pointed out) and ties them together. I agree that it is not the most substantial post, but I wouldn't call it blogspam.
  - Tor3 8y ago
    I read the original and didn't get that there were more substance elsewhere. In the end I found it pretty contentless. The link that CoolGuySteve (and seibelj) pointed to is where the real article is.
- kerng 8y ago
  Thanks for that link, much better and it answers some of the questions I had about the author that are covered at the source.
matttproud 8y ago
As an American living abroad, I can subjectively confirm what the author writes. I have a hard time keeping a straight face when returning.
- wakkaflokka 8y ago
  Where do you live now?
- wayouteast 8y ago
  When my company sent me to South America to work, it was pretty revealing how American company culture is toxic. People from the home office in NY were literally complaining about South Americans getting too many vacation days, 1 hour lunches, and a lot of other perks that are guaranteed by law. All of this despite the south american employees making 30% of the NY salary. The head of HR complained about guaranteed 1 hour lunches for the employees because "she ate lunch at her desk working everyday". They were jealous because it was only a 10 minute walk to a gorgeous beach from the SA office. I was involved in a lot of discussions with HQ about the office and it became abundantly clear, that all the HR and execs wanted to keep the salaries of South American's low or else they would have "too good of a life" and "live like kings" if they paid them the NY salary, despite things like computers and cars costing like 2x the cost of USA. and while rent was cheaper, the difference in rent was only like 24k a year (1k for an apartment vs 3k). I was still living on my NY salary, and would get constant criticism from the home office that I was living too well, despite all the benefits (access to the beach, nice weather, etc) were free. It seemed like the entire office thought everything in south america was pennies on the dollar. In reality to lead an equivalent life as the USA (modern apartment, nice neighborhood, eat at nice restaurants, have a nice car), its not really that much cheaper, like 20-30% cheaper. Not 66% cheaper. Anyways, what really opened my eyes was that was south america. I think we think of South America as being underdeveloped, but my life was very nice there, and it was very very difficult to justify going back to the USA. And it really opened my eyes, how blatantly envious American HR employees can get when they see the more relaxed lifestyles of other countries and instead of improving themselves, they seek to tear others down.
  - 8y ago
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ataturk 8y ago
What garbage. France's life expectancy is 83, blah blah blah. Yeah, so all those yellow vest protestors are rioting because everything there is so fucking awesome, right? I've been to Europe. I was astounded by the huge number of lazy fuckwits sitting around in cafes all day long. If you live on the dole, you're not free, not matter what you think. Someone, somewhere, is paying for that shit. Let me give you another data point: When you cross into Canada from the US, there is a distinct difference in the quality of the housing and the general upkeep of the towns. I conclude from it that Canadian people are taxed to within an inch of their very lives. How is that better? A lot of Americans are stupid, in debt, and living a rat race existence. It is not required to be that way, however.
jim_and_derrick 8y ago
Might not be the typical american, consider myself pretty aware of both me, my fam, and surroundings. Maybe it's all the drugs i did in college but 'chasing the dream is not for me anymore'. My mind was opened to things other than buying cars/clothes/homes, watching the latest shows etc. Hell I still get hours of enjoyment playing old SNES games on my laptop haha. My family has carved out a little slice of life for ourselves and we are happy. Sure it's hard when you go on social medias (like the wife) and see 'friends' flying around the world, doing 'cool' things. meanwhile we are in midwest working every day trying to raise a little baby. Sometimes it's hard for folks to not get jealous. Let those millenials travel the world on their parents dime. I know people taking 30 day honeymoons going on global excursions. My wife and I paid for our entire honeymoon and spent a week in southern cal... If you are able to ignore the outside signals, focus on what makes YOU happy. I have done that and apparently have found success in life. I've even gotten lucky with some jobs. Jobs i decided to stick with instead of jumping ship.
miguelrochefort 8y ago
Is this satire?
jfasi 8y ago
We live in a society
TuringNYC 8y ago
A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be allowed. In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I know this just comparing experiences, stories, outcomes from many friends, cousins, co-workers in other countries. (Also, I've lived overseas for work many years and got to see things firsthand.) Is it a grind? Yes. Stressful? Yes. But meritocracies [wherever you are on the spectrum] are stressful because you are competing for outcomes rather than being born into them. ...And then there is US healthcare. I don't know what to say about that...
- dudul 8y ago
  > In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. Some may say that in the US, what gets in the way is which social class you belong to. Several studies highlight that social mobility is very low in the US.
- sweeeety 8y ago
  Came here to say this. I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA. The country I came without much to offer but honest work and positive/open mind. Whereas in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken. There is suffering everywhere I lived Canada, USA, France, Denmark, Japan, Brazil. Some places take care better of the unprivileged indeed. ...yeah the health care has become a big problem but it is for the Americans to solve it their own way.
  - close04 8y ago
    > I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA > in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken I'm not contesting you actually had these experiences but yours must be an exceptional story. It contradicts the reality of a lot of people. But you make one big confusion that makes me question your experience with the systems. The US is a country with relatively uniform legislation. Europe is a continent where not only are the cultures vastly different between countries, the laws (like immigration) can be very different, a lot more so than between US states. And not all European countries are in the European Union. So the blanket statement "the immigration path is also completely broken", especially when comparing to the US, gives away some (uninformed) bias. A person coming from Syria can get permanent resident status and/or citizenship after just a few years under perfectly acceptable conditions (like learning the language and having a job). So I don't really see a broken or particularly difficult path especially compared to the US.
JohnBooty 8y ago
Don't get me wrong; vast numbers of Americans do have plenty of experience with the world outside America. The simple (and unfortunate) answer is that because America is geographically isolated, many Americans literally don't see how folks in other countries live. Also, thanks to the Cold War, we spent half a century being indoctrinated to believe that socialism is evil and capitalism equals freedom and that's why the American way of life is the best one.
- vibrato 8y ago
  Thank god we have all of those shining beacons of socialism today to set us straight, like Venezuela.
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    They did a number of things badly, and were did in perhaps most of all by plummeting oil prices. All nations balance some degree of socialism with free market competition. Name a country you'd consider successful. Chances are, it has public schooling, public roads, that kind of thing. Some elements of socialism.
- sacheendra 8y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily say vast number of americans have plenty of experience outside the US. For example, only 42% have a passport. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh...
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    That's 137 million people, far more than any European country ;-)
  - asark 8y ago
    Betting a solid half of those are for Canada (mostly those living near the border—don't you still need at least a passport card to drive over?) Mexico (all-inclusive resorts for the most part) and/or Caribbean cruises, entirely. That accounts for almost all the travel I hear about in my extended knowing-stuff-that's-going-on-with-people range.
aantix 8y ago
In a hyper-capitalistic society, money will be disproportionately allocated to the winners of whatever the society values at that time. And that disparity causes agony and longing for the have-nots, the hope for better conditions. Some rise, some don't. But it's a constant wrestling match of allocations. But the positive byproduct of disproportionate money allocation is innovation. That the Haves are able to accelerate their capitalistic interests because of their monetary rewards. Suffering and disparity are functions of hyper-capitalism, innovation is another byproduct of that system, and no one embraces that system more than America.
- plutonorm 8y ago
  The "hard work pays off" delusion is woven into the identity of America, making it extremely difficult for the individual to shake off despite all evidence to the contrary. It's convenient for those who benefit from the hard work of others. They can expect hard work, without actually providing much incentive.
djanogo 8y ago
One constant thing in every country is there is always a narrative among certain percentage of population about how shitty their country is, America is no different, usually the people who feel this way are not nationalists. If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing this country is. It always be your choice to live how happily you want to live, you can quit wanting to climb the ladder, you can quit watching news telling you how shitty country is, you can quit watching TV constantly telling you to upgrade your house, car, phone etc.
- seszett 8y ago
  > If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing this country is. Yes, compared to the third world country you come from. But that works for pretty much any other western country. It doesn't help comparing them between each other.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    Much the same as saying, “If you were unemployed and homeless, you’d know how amazing this job in an Amazon warehouse is. Look at how many people would rather work here than starve!” Very true. And yet, there are better jobs with better working conditions. This is not to say that the USA is the Amazon Warehouse of developed countries, but you need to compare jobs to jobs, and developed countries to developed countries.
  - djanogo 8y ago
    Not really, people who emigrated to certain European countries with more socialist economy try to get out of there, all my friends who moved to Europe left after 4 or 5 years, all 7 of them are in US now.
- countryqt30 8y ago
  Europe is not a country, nor is it third world xD. Pretty much all Americans and Canadians who came to Germany loved it all and above, stayed here, and build their companies and family around.
- 8y ago
lupire 8y ago
This is the blathering of spoiled rich kid on vacation. > In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes. This is so farcical it's not even worth trying to rebut.
- piker 8y ago
  It's hilarious that the author is citing television. Is there anyone on the Earth who believes, e.g., British television is better as a whole than US television? They must really like slow-to-never-developing low budget, single camera angle crime dramas. [Edit: Apparently so! Quite the controversial statement. However, when voting, do consider what percentage of television consumed outside of the US was produced IN the US and vice versa.]
  - richardwhiuk 8y ago
    The endless interruptions of adverts every 5 minutes does tend to encourage me that the experience of US television is worse. Some of the actual content is much better, but the experience of watching television in the US is drastically worse.
    - irrational 8y ago
      If you are seeing commercials, you are doing it wrong.
      - UpperBodyEimi 8y ago
        I'm confused by this, how do you avoid commercials. From watching the off NFL game there's even like pre-commercial commercials. "Brought to you by <some american car company> and <drink> the official drink of <whatever> and McDonalds - I'm loving it".
seibelj 8y ago
> In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes.[0] No, not everyone in Europe gets to live white-collar worker dream of writing poetry at the coffee shop and coming in late. See the people working at the coffee shop, the construction workers, garbage men, etc. One thing I love about America is that people still get shit done here. One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry. An old joke - "Every MBA in America dreams of starting a billion dollar business. Every MBA in Europe dreams of starting a satellite office of the American business." [0] From the actual blog the author quoted from https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...
- robenkleene 8y ago
  Why do you think those people write poetry instead of creating side project businesses?
  - huffmsa 8y ago
    Regulations. Plain and simple. Your employees aren't allowed to work their asses off. They're going to expect to be able to get to work at 10, and be home by 5.
    - rat9988 8y ago
      Huh? You can be an employee and have a side project independent of your boss.
      - taneq 8y ago
bcmo 8y ago
Please. Europe doesn't even have cold brew coffee
- dEnigma 8y ago
  Not sure where you got that from but of course Europe has cold brew coffee, at least large parts of it.
  - bcmo 8y ago
    France, Italy, Spain, people more commonly drink espressos, cafe au lait.. I've found cold brew or sometimes even decent iced coffee harder to get. "order coffee and a croissant, both of which are fairly tasteless" yeah right. I love drinking espressos.. but when given the option in Europe I'll take the starbucks. Plus I'd stack off a NY bagel against a French croissant any day. Both awesome, just different. Article reminds me of the 'refined europeans' that 6th grade teachers that spent a week on their honeymoon in Paris talk about.
- PedroBatista 8y ago
  They also don't have chicken wings served out of a bucket.
  - fsniper 8y ago
    In Ireland KFC does that.
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      Yeah, but they aren't marinaded in chlorine.
throwaway400 8y ago
From the actual post: > In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I mean, if you are a Europhile of course the US is going to suck. You can always move to Quebec I suppose? No train to hop on, though.
lr4444lr 8y ago
There are some objective problems fairly raised here (e.g. quality of public transit) but set against the rest of the world, the net immigration numbers simply suggest we are not all as bad as the author makes out.
JoshTko 8y ago
I think this Vox video explains it well. TLDR American TV does a good job distracting people from real issues in order to keep funneling funds to the rich. My guess is European elites are catching on to American tactics and are following suit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s
- netsharc 8y ago
  I feel like the UK is there or close to it... the elite managed to fool half the population to vote for economic self-destruction (with a bus!), and hiding behind it is a future with less regulation, which means more chance for exploitation...
exelius 8y ago
Americans don’t travel. If we did, we wouldn’t buy the myth of American exceptionalism. But then, we are largely becoming a country controlled by global financial interests rather than the population. Money is the deciding factor in our elections, and the most concentrated forms of wealth out there are sovereign wealth funds and large multinational corporations whose executives are largely above the law. Which means you don’t need to be an American citizen to have a voice in the political process that affects the quality of life for hundreds of millions of us. We need publicly funded elections. Otherwise, corporate and foreign money with zero interest in the wellbeing of American citizens will dominate the politics agenda (just like they have for the last 20-ish years).
- jlawson 8y ago
  Money is not the deciding factor in American elections. Hillary Clinton spent twice as much as Donald Trump during the 2016 campaign.
  - ihaveajob 8y ago
    That's one exception to the rule. A big one, being the most important election that happens every 4 year, but that doesn't negate the importance of money in campaigning.
    - JackFr 8y ago
      Beto O’Rourke outspent Ted Cruz $79MM to $45MM. Another exception?
      - exelius 8y ago
        There are always exceptions that prove the rule — Texas is in a weird place in that the shifting demographics (higher birthdate among non-whites) will eventually flip the state blue in the late 2020s, so I think the DNC was optimistic they could steal a senate seat on a wave of popular support. One could also argue the DNC was investing in raising the national profile of one of its rising stars in advance of the 2020 campaign even knowing his chances were slim.
creaghpatr 8y ago
The linked blog is by a notorious America-hater Umair Haque, almost all of his pieces are slammed for similar reasons you see in this comments section. It's hate bait, nothing more. (I recommend "Why the Anglo World is Collapsing" /s) Take a look at his other work to get an idea of how seriously you should take this guy: https://eand.co/@umairh https://eand.co/@umairh
- Tor3 8y ago
  I cannot understand why you would call it hate bait. [but please look at the actual article, not the link in the header· NB: I have no knowledge about the author other than that article. But the article is what's being discussed here.] He is, for example, pointing out that history shows that the way to progress is by "lifting one another up, not keeping anyone else down" and rejecting the "I rise by pulling you down" philosophy, which is exactly the reasoning of the groups that are currently destabilizing factors in some Europan countries. In other words - it's the opposite of hate bait.
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    Cmon. Take this passage, right at the beginning: >There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking outward, and learning from the world. It is made up of littler myths about greed being good, the weak deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a lever, for the survival of the fittest — and America is busy recounting those myths, not learning from the world, in slightly weaker (Democrats) or stronger (Republicans) forms. He makes a bunch of accusative statements that are intentionally designed to provoke bipartisan outrage, hence clicks and shares on forums like Hacker News. It's absolutely hate-bait.
- devmunchies 8y ago
  oh you weren't kidding. I went through his twitter too. A real anglophobe. I understand disliking big banks, big finance, capitalism etc, but to blame a culture of people sounds... familiar. "Its the anglos!" "Its the jews!" No, its probably less than a few thousand highly influential elites who just care about themselves.
- 8y ago
roenxi 8y ago
I'd like to believe the hallmark of a truly great society is that they are capable of shamelessly copying good ideas from elsewhere. I'm not sure this idea of 'everything [in the US being] lower quality' is going to hold up to close inspection though. He cites life expectancy; that statistic is probably going to suffer from Simpson's Paradox - it is reasonable to expect that the better the poor and are treated, the lower average life expectancy will be. It would be easy to have great life expectancy by raising the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced to leave. It isn't to say that America is all sunshine and roses; there are a lot of problems in how people are rewarded and punished for their choices. But it isn't obviously worse and looking in from the outside it does seem to be easier to be the change you want to see in America. There is also the irony that these ideas aren't being communicated on a world-leading European message board using world-class European software. It isn't that telling, it just made me smile.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  Is this not being hosted on a Linux box somewhere? Sure, it may well not be, but Linux is common enough that it could be.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    I can claim that for the list if you want. Torvalds is American and lives in Oregon; most of the major Linux contributors were sponsored by American companies if I recall correctly. Red Hats and IBMs of the world. America must be doing something right.
    - EliRivers 8y ago
      America must be doing something right. It is indeed. And a lot wrong too. This that you said; "It would be easy to have great life expectancy by raising the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced to leave." I don't understand. Is that how France did it?
      - roenxi 8y ago
chrismeller 8y ago
> There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking outward Which is frankly such a common sentiment from every European I’ve ever met that it’s become almost a cliche. Perhaps we are a bit arrogant but at some point don’t you have to realize that maybe you’re doing the exact same thing in reverse? All the things he listed out as being of lower quality are completely subjective. The food is worse? Compared to where? Yes, you can get a lot more variety of crappy fast food... nothing is preventing you from NOT stopping at McDonald’s though. It’s like saying all furniture is crappier in Sweden because IKEA is everywhere...
- goalieca 8y ago
  I do think quality of food and dairy is a problem in the USA and it has been a difficult thing for me everytime i have travelled there. When i've been to europe i've found the quality and preparation to be very good and consistent everywhere (big cities and small towns) but not always a lot of variety.
  - chrismeller 8y ago
    Like I said, quality of food varies. No matter where you are that is true, not every restaurant is the same. I’m not sure what you mean about the quality of dairy? US milk, eggs, and cheese are no different than any of the milk, eggs, and cheese of the same variety anywhere else in the world I’ve been.
    - anothermouse 8y ago
      There is huge variation in Dairy! French Milk (was) terrible, only UHT widely available, though fresh is now quite common. US milk is nothing like as good as British milk for freshness/flavour (though the latter is subjective). US eggs are refrigerated, as salmonella is so prevalent. Not so in UK, where they are guaranteed salmonella free (nowadays 'thanks' to Edwina Curry) And Cheese? Really - I'm fairly sure there is no equivalent of a nice ripe epoisses widely available in the US. Sure, cheap cheddar is just like Monterray Jack, but.... I have lived in the US for 8 years, France/Luxembourg for 2 and the UK for the rest.
chvid 8y ago
Because their lives by global standard are actually very very good?
irrational 8y ago
>I planned on waking up early and revisiting said collection, but slept through my alarm, going from a planned 8 or so hours of sleep to almost 10. This person and their DHH (dear honorary husband?) obviously don't have any kids. I'm starting to see where her idealized view of life in Europe is coming from. I've been to Europe many times and she is clearly living in some sort of upper class bubble. Why don't upper class Europeans understand how unrealistic their lives are?
deleted 8y ago
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pcr910303 8y ago
Well, the funny thing is that ‘America’ is the standard in lots of countries, even in places where many things are superior to the US. I’ve been to the US a few times, and the experience was abysmal. I didn’t expect 1Gbps public Wifis in public transportation (well, we have them), but... I mean, super dirty subways and buses that don’t go much (moving only with public transportation and foot was a painful experience), super-slow LTE/WLAN speeds (I mean... weren’t they supposed to be called ‘LTE’?), basically non-existent medical system - (going to the doctor takes a whole day?? We go to the doctor in lunchtime..., and super high prices even with medical insurance), and my list goes on and on. However in South Korea everybody’s saying.. ‘Hey let’s do it the American way!’ The world is totally insane.
- arx1422 8y ago
  " I’ve been to the US a few times" - Clearly then you are a registered expert on the United States socio-economic system :)
i_am_nomad 8y ago
Odd that he includes Paris in that list of superior places. My two weeks in Paris last summmer left me shocked at how filthy it is, how crowded the public transit is, and how unremarkable (compared to expectations). the food is. And I say that as a San Franciscan.
- degrews 8y ago
  See Paris Syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
keiferski 8y ago
As an American who has lived in Europe for 5+ years: the single biggest issue with the States is that everything is filtered through a money-first mentality. Reading a book? It better be nonfiction, because fiction “isn’t real” and won’t help you get ahead. Writing a book? It’s only a success if it’s a best-seller. Studying a new language? Only worth it if you can monetize it somehow. Hate your job? Not a problem if your salary is high enough. This baseline mentality underlies everything and injects a market in to places where it doesn’t belong. Europe certainly has its own issues, but at the very least it allows for the possibility that life isn’t primarily a series of financial decisions.
- westpfelia 8y ago
  i've been in Germany now for 14 months. At this point my biggest complaint is the entire lack of Taco Bell. We have Pizza Hut and KFC Yum corp... WHERE IS MY GERMAN TACO BELL!? Some nights I Dont want to eat Kebab for my late night drunk food. Sometimes I want 'tacos' and 'burritos'.
  - auiya 8y ago
    They do have them at American military bases. There's one at KMMC on Ramstein Air Base for instance.
    - westpfelia 7y ago
      Yup. And as a non service member I can not go to it.
- frontloadpro 8y ago
  Is this a real thing? My life is my job, family, side projects, and fun. I don't know where you lived, but none of the people I know, Engineers and programmers think that they should be reading non fiction instead of playing video games.
  - auiya 8y ago
DamienB 8y ago
I don't think the author understands how extraordinary his life is. His complaint is essentially that there's nothing satisfying on his trello board? That's a great problem to have. It's a good thing he has clean water, an education, an aptitude and the opportunity to participate in the upper echelons of a technological revolution. He isn't living under war, famine or a communist dystopia where his options would be far more limited. He's in relatively good health and perhaps he hasn't yet suffered the extraordinary personal losses we'll all face as our loved ones grow old, sick and die. It's a good time for him. It's a fallacy to extrapolate one's mental state to the entire nation. We are living under the greatest conditions in all of human history. If you can't be satisfied here then by all means go on a soul searching adventure and figure yourself out. It's your journey, it's your time on Earth and it's literally never been better.
lumberjack 8y ago
I am European, but I understand why America is the way it is. America is a country of strangers trying to coexist. They cannot agree on what way of life is the best so they cannot have strong convictions, and thus they cannot have government programs as intrusive as countries in Europe. All the good things in our European countries come at the cost of choice. Yes, we have universal healthcare, but it is mandatory and you have no say in the matter. This is fine if everyone is convinced that it is the best solution, but what if they are not?
- Tor3 8y ago
  In most European countries you also have access to private healthcare that you (or your employer) have to pay for.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Many, dare I say the majority, of Americans don't have any desire to have the European way of life, culture or institutions. We like heavily processed Walmart peanut butter on our goddamn Wonderbread made from GMO wheat with jelly sweetened with corn syrup. We like our Budweiser and $10 "Chinese" buffet. We like driving our cheaply registered, insured, and fueled cars. We'd prefer to sit in traffic than wait for a train. Sure our healthcare could be better but we're working on it and pretty much nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that long. I and millions of other people like out way of life. I get that the author is entitled to his opinion but my opinion is that his opinion is crap. I hate to be this guy but if he likes Europe that much he should move there, or at least move to a state that's more like it.
- cbcoutinho 8y ago
  > pretty much nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that long. I envy your optimism
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Give it 10yr for most of the old farts in congress to wash out. Once it's possible for a republican congressmen to admit that Canada has it better without having the RNC fund whoever wants to primary them things will change.
- ancarda 8y ago
  As a European who wants the American way of life, thank you for this. At times it feels like I'm the only person in the world who likes America.
11thEarlOfMar 8y ago
Given the number of Americans and the breadth of places they can live, you're not going to be able to generalize this sentiment. There is Poor as in lacking wealth, there is Poor as in lacking quality, and Poor as in lacking community. Which are we talking about? There is a persistent social churn in the US. It is a side effect of what we consider progress. Progress is generally an outcome of building businesses that emerge, grow and die. Employees that are valuable to one business may not be valuable to the next, and that transition takes them from being prosperous to being poor and struggling. One example is the shift from a primarily industrial economy to a primarily service economy. All the factory workers who provided for and raised families in the 50s - 70s came into jeopardy in the 80s-90s as US companies off-shored manufacturing. The families that could not make the transition suffered. They had to buy based on price and low cost won, in spite of the quality. At the same time, new companies with different business models emerged and the workers of those companies prospered. Consider the semiconductor industry. In the 70s and into the 80s, the US dominated. Then, again, the technology spread globally to Europe and Asia and US fabrication facilities shut down, families were again in jeopardy. Today, the wealth creation and prosperity is centered on technology companies, which dominate lists of the most valuable companies globally. It is likely that as in the past, these firms will ultimately give way to global competition, and their employees will need to shift.
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wildermuthn 8y ago
Obviously the quoted author has never lived an upper-class American life. Context is important when speaking about America. We have the third-largest population in the world and a larger degree in inequality than most of the countries in our GDP-bracket. There is no better place to live in the world if you are intelligent, determined, healthy, and ideally, rich and well-connected. As for the justice of such a situation, well, this is the perennial American debate: is inequality actually a good thing, or are we in a zero-sum game where wealth is a pie that never grows? See Paul Graham’s essays, as always.
johan_larson 8y ago
Well, yeah, the Europeans have good work-life balance. But that comes at a price. European rates for software developers are way below what they are the US. Also, there are far fewer big opportunities. There simply aren't any FAANG-tier companies in Europe. They're all American, and there are a few players in that league in Asia. But Europe doesn't have any.
drcode 8y ago
The days when typical food and drink in Europe is better than in the US are also mostly gone. Whenever I go to a fancy restaurant in, say Frankfurt, it doesn't measure up to a comparable restaurant in my home town of Chicago (with the exception of ethnic German restaurants, which are often pretty good) Same with coffee: Twenty years ago German coffee shops had superior coffee to American ones, but whereas American coffee has vastly improved, European shops have in general been content to remain static in quality.
Mugwort 8y ago
I found this rather satisfying answer. "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - John Steinbeck Are you temporarily embarrassed? You may not realise it, but you could be a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. Do you plan to someday in the future have more money? Are you concerned that your taxes are too high, because someday you might pay too much tax. Do you ride the bus only because this year you can’t afford that luxury car you’re going to have? Do you live pay cheque to pay cheque like most people just because you haven’t had your lucky break. You aren’t rich and it’s very unlikely you ever will be. The economic and power systems of this planet are not designed for you to get rich. The American dream doesn’t exist and it never did. Stop being a temporarily embarrassed millionaire and just be a person.
sproketboy 8y ago
Because they aren't
JaceLightning 8y ago
Are they really? I can own a 6000 square foot house for $2,500/ month in most of the country. Try doing that in Europe.
- ab71e5 8y ago
  I mean you totally can, in eastern Europe. But you're missing the point of the article, which is that Europeans supposedly enjoy a more 'rich' life in other ways than material goods. Although I do not fully agree, most of Europe is not that different.
- degrews 8y ago
  I don't agree with the original article at all, but I find this comment quite ironic. Almost no European except for the very rich is thinking about owning a 6000 square foot house, it's just not a priority. But it doesn't surprise me that an American would. And I think that difference is illustrative of the American vs European narrative the author is alluding to. The aspiration of owning a 6000 square foot house probably costs the American a lot of things the European _would_ value: not having to be so career-focused to make enough money, not having to take on as much debt, living in a higher-density urban area which makes other things mentioned in the article possible (taking the train, going to cafes, casually stopping for groceries, all the while being surrounded by other people)...
apexalpha 8y ago
This won't do well on a forum where all Americans are in the top 10% of social class. Also, don't forget that Europe as a whole is poorer than the US. Sure, it's better to be poor in the EU than in the US but the top class can go much, much higher. A €80k salary is really on the higher end here in Europe, while Americans in IT seems to sometimes start on it. Even though his points regarding GMO are too extreme, I think food quality and health might be the only 2 things the US is worse at than the EU. But again, you don't notice this if you're in rich in the US.
coleifer 8y ago
> Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? That final question he's quoting is from the alcoholics anonymous literature. I wonder if he knows that? Another good one: > Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows...
xutopia 8y ago
I worked a few years in Paris and then in Canada... often for American companies. Even if he exaggerates a bit the points many of my colleagues who did similar stints is that "In Europe you work to live. In North America you live to work." And don't get me started about food... many Americans think whipped cream is that sweetened white colored oil in a can.
matthieubrg 8y ago
It all comes from the individualism and egocentrism and bullying of US culture. "It is made up of littler myths about greed being good, the weak deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a lever, for the survival of the fittest". You've been raised and thought to only think and work for yourself and consider your interests first...Until someone gets cancer and you have to launch a GoFundMe campaign and hope it'll not ruin your entire family. We sure have a lot of issues in Europe and by no mean are perfect societies or have the greatest companies. But at least we help each other, we support the less fortunate, we protect the weakest. And that's how you improve quality of life, life expectancy, a build a better society overall. I'm happy to give a significant part of my income to the government if it helps people survive and live better. And what you don't actually realize is that people are doing the same for you, because you might one day need it. Now why don't we have as many unicorns as you do in the U.S.? Because we're a bit more precautious and risk-averse, it's true.We don't go as fast and as strong as you. We first think 'Is this possible? safe? legal? right?' and then go on making the thing. While you just go, build it and ask questions later... which is an amazing fearless mindset which allowed you to accomplish incredible thing but which also leads to Facebook fucking up all over the world, Amazon treating their employees like slaves, or Boeing killing 350+ people because a 2nd safety system is too expensive.
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  Fantastic comments and very true. This echoes my time spent living in Europe. As an "American" with a British father, and having lived overseas for much of my life, I still value European social mores and overall cultural far more than my American side. If I could only convince my wife to move to somewhere besides Texas. Vermont is first on the list, followed by anywhere in south rural England or Spain. Europeans tend to not get starry-eyed like Americans. I don't need or want a sports car and big-assed house. It does nothing for me other than put me behind the power curve financially. I'd rather have universal healthcare, 6 weeks paid holiday and the ability to travel cheaply in the EU bloc.
dejaime 8y ago
First world problems meme is taking on a whole new level
eqdw 8y ago
> Everything I consume in the States is of a vastly, abysmally lower quality. Every single thing. The food, the media, little things like fashion, art, public spaces, the emotional context, the work environment, and life in general make me less sane, happy, alive This is more a reflection on the author than a reflection on America. There are plenty of extremely high quality things available here and it's not America's fault if OP settles for junk instead
Debugreality 8y ago
If you look at America like a giant company then the American dream was somewhat alike to company vision statement. Having a vision statement like that seems to have helped a lot in the past, perhaps better than companies with no vision. One of the biggest issues with these kind of top level visions is they are pretty much set forever and even if they are not working anymore it is extremely hard to replace them with something else. But perhaps it's time to start trying?
RickJWagner 8y ago
Why, just look at Mick Jagger! This week he could have used the fine health care provided by the UK's government system. Instead, he opted to pay for service in an American hospital. What's wrong with Mick? Doesn't he recognize superior quality in healthcare when he sees it?

151 points by ptr 8y ago

fmdud 8y ago

The book "Capitalist Realism" by Mark Fisher is very, very appropriate here

Cyclone_ 8y ago

But he doesn't mention where he's from?

maggit 8y ago
The author seems to be from Dallas, Texas, but the quote in the title is from another post: https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...

CoolGuySteve 8y ago

This article is blog spam, here's the actual link: https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...

maggit 8y ago
I disagree. The article quotes and links to three different articles (the first of which is the one you have pointed out) and ties them together. I agree that it is not the most substantial post, but I wouldn't call it blogspam.
- Tor3 8y ago
  I read the original and didn't get that there were more substance elsewhere. In the end I found it pretty contentless. The link that CoolGuySteve (and seibelj) pointed to is where the real article is.
kerng 8y ago
Thanks for that link, much better and it answers some of the questions I had about the author that are covered at the source.

matttproud 8y ago

As an American living abroad, I can subjectively confirm what the author writes. I have a hard time keeping a straight face when returning.

wakkaflokka 8y ago
Where do you live now?
wayouteast 8y ago
When my company sent me to South America to work, it was pretty revealing how American company culture is toxic. People from the home office in NY were literally complaining about South Americans getting too many vacation days, 1 hour lunches, and a lot of other perks that are guaranteed by law. All of this despite the south american employees making 30% of the NY salary. The head of HR complained about guaranteed 1 hour lunches for the employees because "she ate lunch at her desk working everyday". They were jealous because it was only a 10 minute walk to a gorgeous beach from the SA office. I was involved in a lot of discussions with HQ about the office and it became abundantly clear, that all the HR and execs wanted to keep the salaries of South American's low or else they would have "too good of a life" and "live like kings" if they paid them the NY salary, despite things like computers and cars costing like 2x the cost of USA. and while rent was cheaper, the difference in rent was only like 24k a year (1k for an apartment vs 3k). I was still living on my NY salary, and would get constant criticism from the home office that I was living too well, despite all the benefits (access to the beach, nice weather, etc) were free. It seemed like the entire office thought everything in south america was pennies on the dollar. In reality to lead an equivalent life as the USA (modern apartment, nice neighborhood, eat at nice restaurants, have a nice car), its not really that much cheaper, like 20-30% cheaper. Not 66% cheaper. Anyways, what really opened my eyes was that was south america. I think we think of South America as being underdeveloped, but my life was very nice there, and it was very very difficult to justify going back to the USA. And it really opened my eyes, how blatantly envious American HR employees can get when they see the more relaxed lifestyles of other countries and instead of improving themselves, they seek to tear others down.
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ataturk 8y ago

What garbage. France's life expectancy is 83, blah blah blah. Yeah, so all those yellow vest protestors are rioting because everything there is so fucking awesome, right? I've been to Europe. I was astounded by the huge number of lazy fuckwits sitting around in cafes all day long. If you live on the dole, you're not free, not matter what you think. Someone, somewhere, is paying for that shit. Let me give you another data point: When you cross into Canada from the US, there is a distinct difference in the quality of the housing and the general upkeep of the towns. I conclude from it that Canadian people are taxed to within an inch of their very lives. How is that better? A lot of Americans are stupid, in debt, and living a rat race existence. It is not required to be that way, however.

jim_and_derrick 8y ago

Might not be the typical american, consider myself pretty aware of both me, my fam, and surroundings. Maybe it's all the drugs i did in college but 'chasing the dream is not for me anymore'. My mind was opened to things other than buying cars/clothes/homes, watching the latest shows etc. Hell I still get hours of enjoyment playing old SNES games on my laptop haha. My family has carved out a little slice of life for ourselves and we are happy. Sure it's hard when you go on social medias (like the wife) and see 'friends' flying around the world, doing 'cool' things. meanwhile we are in midwest working every day trying to raise a little baby. Sometimes it's hard for folks to not get jealous. Let those millenials travel the world on their parents dime. I know people taking 30 day honeymoons going on global excursions. My wife and I paid for our entire honeymoon and spent a week in southern cal... If you are able to ignore the outside signals, focus on what makes YOU happy. I have done that and apparently have found success in life. I've even gotten lucky with some jobs. Jobs i decided to stick with instead of jumping ship.

miguelrochefort 8y ago

Is this satire?

jfasi 8y ago

We live in a society

TuringNYC 8y ago

A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be allowed. In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I know this just comparing experiences, stories, outcomes from many friends, cousins, co-workers in other countries. (Also, I've lived overseas for work many years and got to see things firsthand.) Is it a grind? Yes. Stressful? Yes. But meritocracies [wherever you are on the spectrum] are stressful because you are competing for outcomes rather than being born into them. ...And then there is US healthcare. I don't know what to say about that...

dudul 8y ago
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. Some may say that in the US, what gets in the way is which social class you belong to. Several studies highlight that social mobility is very low in the US.
sweeeety 8y ago
Came here to say this. I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA. The country I came without much to offer but honest work and positive/open mind. Whereas in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken. There is suffering everywhere I lived Canada, USA, France, Denmark, Japan, Brazil. Some places take care better of the unprivileged indeed. ...yeah the health care has become a big problem but it is for the Americans to solve it their own way.
- close04 8y ago
  > I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA > in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken I'm not contesting you actually had these experiences but yours must be an exceptional story. It contradicts the reality of a lot of people. But you make one big confusion that makes me question your experience with the systems. The US is a country with relatively uniform legislation. Europe is a continent where not only are the cultures vastly different between countries, the laws (like immigration) can be very different, a lot more so than between US states. And not all European countries are in the European Union. So the blanket statement "the immigration path is also completely broken", especially when comparing to the US, gives away some (uninformed) bias. A person coming from Syria can get permanent resident status and/or citizenship after just a few years under perfectly acceptable conditions (like learning the language and having a job). So I don't really see a broken or particularly difficult path especially compared to the US.

JohnBooty 8y ago

Don't get me wrong; vast numbers of Americans do have plenty of experience with the world outside America. The simple (and unfortunate) answer is that because America is geographically isolated, many Americans literally don't see how folks in other countries live. Also, thanks to the Cold War, we spent half a century being indoctrinated to believe that socialism is evil and capitalism equals freedom and that's why the American way of life is the best one.

vibrato 8y ago
Thank god we have all of those shining beacons of socialism today to set us straight, like Venezuela.
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  They did a number of things badly, and were did in perhaps most of all by plummeting oil prices. All nations balance some degree of socialism with free market competition. Name a country you'd consider successful. Chances are, it has public schooling, public roads, that kind of thing. Some elements of socialism.
sacheendra 8y ago
I wouldn't necessarily say vast number of americans have plenty of experience outside the US. For example, only 42% have a passport. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh...
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  That's 137 million people, far more than any European country ;-)
- asark 8y ago
  Betting a solid half of those are for Canada (mostly those living near the border—don't you still need at least a passport card to drive over?) Mexico (all-inclusive resorts for the most part) and/or Caribbean cruises, entirely. That accounts for almost all the travel I hear about in my extended knowing-stuff-that's-going-on-with-people range.

aantix 8y ago

In a hyper-capitalistic society, money will be disproportionately allocated to the winners of whatever the society values at that time. And that disparity causes agony and longing for the have-nots, the hope for better conditions. Some rise, some don't. But it's a constant wrestling match of allocations. But the positive byproduct of disproportionate money allocation is innovation. That the Haves are able to accelerate their capitalistic interests because of their monetary rewards. Suffering and disparity are functions of hyper-capitalism, innovation is another byproduct of that system, and no one embraces that system more than America.

plutonorm 8y ago
The "hard work pays off" delusion is woven into the identity of America, making it extremely difficult for the individual to shake off despite all evidence to the contrary. It's convenient for those who benefit from the hard work of others. They can expect hard work, without actually providing much incentive.

djanogo 8y ago

One constant thing in every country is there is always a narrative among certain percentage of population about how shitty their country is, America is no different, usually the people who feel this way are not nationalists. If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing this country is. It always be your choice to live how happily you want to live, you can quit wanting to climb the ladder, you can quit watching news telling you how shitty country is, you can quit watching TV constantly telling you to upgrade your house, car, phone etc.

seszett 8y ago
> If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing this country is. Yes, compared to the third world country you come from. But that works for pretty much any other western country. It doesn't help comparing them between each other.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Much the same as saying, “If you were unemployed and homeless, you’d know how amazing this job in an Amazon warehouse is. Look at how many people would rather work here than starve!” Very true. And yet, there are better jobs with better working conditions. This is not to say that the USA is the Amazon Warehouse of developed countries, but you need to compare jobs to jobs, and developed countries to developed countries.
- djanogo 8y ago
  Not really, people who emigrated to certain European countries with more socialist economy try to get out of there, all my friends who moved to Europe left after 4 or 5 years, all 7 of them are in US now.
countryqt30 8y ago
Europe is not a country, nor is it third world xD. Pretty much all Americans and Canadians who came to Germany loved it all and above, stayed here, and build their companies and family around.
8y ago

lupire 8y ago

This is the blathering of spoiled rich kid on vacation. > In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes. This is so farcical it's not even worth trying to rebut.

piker 8y ago
It's hilarious that the author is citing television. Is there anyone on the Earth who believes, e.g., British television is better as a whole than US television? They must really like slow-to-never-developing low budget, single camera angle crime dramas. [Edit: Apparently so! Quite the controversial statement. However, when voting, do consider what percentage of television consumed outside of the US was produced IN the US and vice versa.]
- richardwhiuk 8y ago
  The endless interruptions of adverts every 5 minutes does tend to encourage me that the experience of US television is worse. Some of the actual content is much better, but the experience of watching television in the US is drastically worse.
  - irrational 8y ago
    If you are seeing commercials, you are doing it wrong.
    - UpperBodyEimi 8y ago
      I'm confused by this, how do you avoid commercials. From watching the off NFL game there's even like pre-commercial commercials. "Brought to you by <some american car company> and <drink> the official drink of <whatever> and McDonalds - I'm loving it".

seibelj 8y ago

> In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes.[0] No, not everyone in Europe gets to live white-collar worker dream of writing poetry at the coffee shop and coming in late. See the people working at the coffee shop, the construction workers, garbage men, etc. One thing I love about America is that people still get shit done here. One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry. An old joke - "Every MBA in America dreams of starting a billion dollar business. Every MBA in Europe dreams of starting a satellite office of the American business." [0] From the actual blog the author quoted from https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23 https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...

robenkleene 8y ago
Why do you think those people write poetry instead of creating side project businesses?
- huffmsa 8y ago
  Regulations. Plain and simple. Your employees aren't allowed to work their asses off. They're going to expect to be able to get to work at 10, and be home by 5.
  - rat9988 8y ago
    Huh? You can be an employee and have a side project independent of your boss.
    - taneq 8y ago

bcmo 8y ago

Please. Europe doesn't even have cold brew coffee

dEnigma 8y ago
Not sure where you got that from but of course Europe has cold brew coffee, at least large parts of it.
- bcmo 8y ago
  France, Italy, Spain, people more commonly drink espressos, cafe au lait.. I've found cold brew or sometimes even decent iced coffee harder to get. "order coffee and a croissant, both of which are fairly tasteless" yeah right. I love drinking espressos.. but when given the option in Europe I'll take the starbucks. Plus I'd stack off a NY bagel against a French croissant any day. Both awesome, just different. Article reminds me of the 'refined europeans' that 6th grade teachers that spent a week on their honeymoon in Paris talk about.
PedroBatista 8y ago
They also don't have chicken wings served out of a bucket.
- fsniper 8y ago
  In Ireland KFC does that.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    Yeah, but they aren't marinaded in chlorine.

throwaway400 8y ago

From the actual post: > In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I mean, if you are a Europhile of course the US is going to suck. You can always move to Quebec I suppose? No train to hop on, though.

lr4444lr 8y ago

There are some objective problems fairly raised here (e.g. quality of public transit) but set against the rest of the world, the net immigration numbers simply suggest we are not all as bad as the author makes out.

JoshTko 8y ago

I think this Vox video explains it well. TLDR American TV does a good job distracting people from real issues in order to keep funneling funds to the rich. My guess is European elites are catching on to American tactics and are following suit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s

netsharc 8y ago
I feel like the UK is there or close to it... the elite managed to fool half the population to vote for economic self-destruction (with a bus!), and hiding behind it is a future with less regulation, which means more chance for exploitation...

exelius 8y ago

Americans don’t travel. If we did, we wouldn’t buy the myth of American exceptionalism. But then, we are largely becoming a country controlled by global financial interests rather than the population. Money is the deciding factor in our elections, and the most concentrated forms of wealth out there are sovereign wealth funds and large multinational corporations whose executives are largely above the law. Which means you don’t need to be an American citizen to have a voice in the political process that affects the quality of life for hundreds of millions of us. We need publicly funded elections. Otherwise, corporate and foreign money with zero interest in the wellbeing of American citizens will dominate the politics agenda (just like they have for the last 20-ish years).

jlawson 8y ago
Money is not the deciding factor in American elections. Hillary Clinton spent twice as much as Donald Trump during the 2016 campaign.
- ihaveajob 8y ago
  That's one exception to the rule. A big one, being the most important election that happens every 4 year, but that doesn't negate the importance of money in campaigning.
  - JackFr 8y ago
    Beto O’Rourke outspent Ted Cruz $79MM to $45MM. Another exception?
    - exelius 8y ago
      There are always exceptions that prove the rule — Texas is in a weird place in that the shifting demographics (higher birthdate among non-whites) will eventually flip the state blue in the late 2020s, so I think the DNC was optimistic they could steal a senate seat on a wave of popular support. One could also argue the DNC was investing in raising the national profile of one of its rising stars in advance of the 2020 campaign even knowing his chances were slim.

creaghpatr 8y ago

The linked blog is by a notorious America-hater Umair Haque, almost all of his pieces are slammed for similar reasons you see in this comments section. It's hate bait, nothing more. (I recommend "Why the Anglo World is Collapsing" /s) Take a look at his other work to get an idea of how seriously you should take this guy: https://eand.co/@umairh https://eand.co/@umairh

Tor3 8y ago
I cannot understand why you would call it hate bait. [but please look at the actual article, not the link in the header· NB: I have no knowledge about the author other than that article. But the article is what's being discussed here.] He is, for example, pointing out that history shows that the way to progress is by "lifting one another up, not keeping anyone else down" and rejecting the "I rise by pulling you down" philosophy, which is exactly the reasoning of the groups that are currently destabilizing factors in some Europan countries. In other words - it's the opposite of hate bait.
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  Cmon. Take this passage, right at the beginning: >There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking outward, and learning from the world. It is made up of littler myths about greed being good, the weak deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a lever, for the survival of the fittest — and America is busy recounting those myths, not learning from the world, in slightly weaker (Democrats) or stronger (Republicans) forms. He makes a bunch of accusative statements that are intentionally designed to provoke bipartisan outrage, hence clicks and shares on forums like Hacker News. It's absolutely hate-bait.
devmunchies 8y ago
oh you weren't kidding. I went through his twitter too. A real anglophobe. I understand disliking big banks, big finance, capitalism etc, but to blame a culture of people sounds... familiar. "Its the anglos!" "Its the jews!" No, its probably less than a few thousand highly influential elites who just care about themselves.
8y ago

roenxi 8y ago

I'd like to believe the hallmark of a truly great society is that they are capable of shamelessly copying good ideas from elsewhere. I'm not sure this idea of 'everything [in the US being] lower quality' is going to hold up to close inspection though. He cites life expectancy; that statistic is probably going to suffer from Simpson's Paradox - it is reasonable to expect that the better the poor and are treated, the lower average life expectancy will be. It would be easy to have great life expectancy by raising the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced to leave. It isn't to say that America is all sunshine and roses; there are a lot of problems in how people are rewarded and punished for their choices. But it isn't obviously worse and looking in from the outside it does seem to be easier to be the change you want to see in America. There is also the irony that these ideas aren't being communicated on a world-leading European message board using world-class European software. It isn't that telling, it just made me smile.

EliRivers 8y ago
Is this not being hosted on a Linux box somewhere? Sure, it may well not be, but Linux is common enough that it could be.
- roenxi 8y ago
  I can claim that for the list if you want. Torvalds is American and lives in Oregon; most of the major Linux contributors were sponsored by American companies if I recall correctly. Red Hats and IBMs of the world. America must be doing something right.
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    America must be doing something right. It is indeed. And a lot wrong too. This that you said; "It would be easy to have great life expectancy by raising the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced to leave." I don't understand. Is that how France did it?
    - roenxi 8y ago

chrismeller 8y ago

> There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking outward Which is frankly such a common sentiment from every European I’ve ever met that it’s become almost a cliche. Perhaps we are a bit arrogant but at some point don’t you have to realize that maybe you’re doing the exact same thing in reverse? All the things he listed out as being of lower quality are completely subjective. The food is worse? Compared to where? Yes, you can get a lot more variety of crappy fast food... nothing is preventing you from NOT stopping at McDonald’s though. It’s like saying all furniture is crappier in Sweden because IKEA is everywhere...

goalieca 8y ago
I do think quality of food and dairy is a problem in the USA and it has been a difficult thing for me everytime i have travelled there. When i've been to europe i've found the quality and preparation to be very good and consistent everywhere (big cities and small towns) but not always a lot of variety.
- chrismeller 8y ago
  Like I said, quality of food varies. No matter where you are that is true, not every restaurant is the same. I’m not sure what you mean about the quality of dairy? US milk, eggs, and cheese are no different than any of the milk, eggs, and cheese of the same variety anywhere else in the world I’ve been.
  - anothermouse 8y ago
    There is huge variation in Dairy! French Milk (was) terrible, only UHT widely available, though fresh is now quite common. US milk is nothing like as good as British milk for freshness/flavour (though the latter is subjective). US eggs are refrigerated, as salmonella is so prevalent. Not so in UK, where they are guaranteed salmonella free (nowadays 'thanks' to Edwina Curry) And Cheese? Really - I'm fairly sure there is no equivalent of a nice ripe epoisses widely available in the US. Sure, cheap cheddar is just like Monterray Jack, but.... I have lived in the US for 8 years, France/Luxembourg for 2 and the UK for the rest.

chvid 8y ago

Because their lives by global standard are actually very very good?

irrational 8y ago

>I planned on waking up early and revisiting said collection, but slept through my alarm, going from a planned 8 or so hours of sleep to almost 10. This person and their DHH (dear honorary husband?) obviously don't have any kids. I'm starting to see where her idealized view of life in Europe is coming from. I've been to Europe many times and she is clearly living in some sort of upper class bubble. Why don't upper class Europeans understand how unrealistic their lives are?

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pcr910303 8y ago

Well, the funny thing is that ‘America’ is the standard in lots of countries, even in places where many things are superior to the US. I’ve been to the US a few times, and the experience was abysmal. I didn’t expect 1Gbps public Wifis in public transportation (well, we have them), but... I mean, super dirty subways and buses that don’t go much (moving only with public transportation and foot was a painful experience), super-slow LTE/WLAN speeds (I mean... weren’t they supposed to be called ‘LTE’?), basically non-existent medical system - (going to the doctor takes a whole day?? We go to the doctor in lunchtime..., and super high prices even with medical insurance), and my list goes on and on. However in South Korea everybody’s saying.. ‘Hey let’s do it the American way!’ The world is totally insane.

arx1422 8y ago
" I’ve been to the US a few times" - Clearly then you are a registered expert on the United States socio-economic system :)

i_am_nomad 8y ago

Odd that he includes Paris in that list of superior places. My two weeks in Paris last summmer left me shocked at how filthy it is, how crowded the public transit is, and how unremarkable (compared to expectations). the food is. And I say that as a San Franciscan.

degrews 8y ago
See Paris Syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

keiferski 8y ago

As an American who has lived in Europe for 5+ years: the single biggest issue with the States is that everything is filtered through a money-first mentality. Reading a book? It better be nonfiction, because fiction “isn’t real” and won’t help you get ahead. Writing a book? It’s only a success if it’s a best-seller. Studying a new language? Only worth it if you can monetize it somehow. Hate your job? Not a problem if your salary is high enough. This baseline mentality underlies everything and injects a market in to places where it doesn’t belong. Europe certainly has its own issues, but at the very least it allows for the possibility that life isn’t primarily a series of financial decisions.

westpfelia 8y ago
i've been in Germany now for 14 months. At this point my biggest complaint is the entire lack of Taco Bell. We have Pizza Hut and KFC Yum corp... WHERE IS MY GERMAN TACO BELL!? Some nights I Dont want to eat Kebab for my late night drunk food. Sometimes I want 'tacos' and 'burritos'.
- auiya 8y ago
  They do have them at American military bases. There's one at KMMC on Ramstein Air Base for instance.
  - westpfelia 7y ago
    Yup. And as a non service member I can not go to it.
frontloadpro 8y ago
Is this a real thing? My life is my job, family, side projects, and fun. I don't know where you lived, but none of the people I know, Engineers and programmers think that they should be reading non fiction instead of playing video games.
- auiya 8y ago

DamienB 8y ago

I don't think the author understands how extraordinary his life is. His complaint is essentially that there's nothing satisfying on his trello board? That's a great problem to have. It's a good thing he has clean water, an education, an aptitude and the opportunity to participate in the upper echelons of a technological revolution. He isn't living under war, famine or a communist dystopia where his options would be far more limited. He's in relatively good health and perhaps he hasn't yet suffered the extraordinary personal losses we'll all face as our loved ones grow old, sick and die. It's a good time for him. It's a fallacy to extrapolate one's mental state to the entire nation. We are living under the greatest conditions in all of human history. If you can't be satisfied here then by all means go on a soul searching adventure and figure yourself out. It's your journey, it's your time on Earth and it's literally never been better.

lumberjack 8y ago

I am European, but I understand why America is the way it is. America is a country of strangers trying to coexist. They cannot agree on what way of life is the best so they cannot have strong convictions, and thus they cannot have government programs as intrusive as countries in Europe. All the good things in our European countries come at the cost of choice. Yes, we have universal healthcare, but it is mandatory and you have no say in the matter. This is fine if everyone is convinced that it is the best solution, but what if they are not?

Tor3 8y ago
In most European countries you also have access to private healthcare that you (or your employer) have to pay for.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Many, dare I say the majority, of Americans don't have any desire to have the European way of life, culture or institutions. We like heavily processed Walmart peanut butter on our goddamn Wonderbread made from GMO wheat with jelly sweetened with corn syrup. We like our Budweiser and $10 "Chinese" buffet. We like driving our cheaply registered, insured, and fueled cars. We'd prefer to sit in traffic than wait for a train. Sure our healthcare could be better but we're working on it and pretty much nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that long. I and millions of other people like out way of life. I get that the author is entitled to his opinion but my opinion is that his opinion is crap. I hate to be this guy but if he likes Europe that much he should move there, or at least move to a state that's more like it.

cbcoutinho 8y ago
> pretty much nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that long. I envy your optimism
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Give it 10yr for most of the old farts in congress to wash out. Once it's possible for a republican congressmen to admit that Canada has it better without having the RNC fund whoever wants to primary them things will change.
ancarda 8y ago
As a European who wants the American way of life, thank you for this. At times it feels like I'm the only person in the world who likes America.

11thEarlOfMar 8y ago

Given the number of Americans and the breadth of places they can live, you're not going to be able to generalize this sentiment. There is Poor as in lacking wealth, there is Poor as in lacking quality, and Poor as in lacking community. Which are we talking about? There is a persistent social churn in the US. It is a side effect of what we consider progress. Progress is generally an outcome of building businesses that emerge, grow and die. Employees that are valuable to one business may not be valuable to the next, and that transition takes them from being prosperous to being poor and struggling. One example is the shift from a primarily industrial economy to a primarily service economy. All the factory workers who provided for and raised families in the 50s - 70s came into jeopardy in the 80s-90s as US companies off-shored manufacturing. The families that could not make the transition suffered. They had to buy based on price and low cost won, in spite of the quality. At the same time, new companies with different business models emerged and the workers of those companies prospered. Consider the semiconductor industry. In the 70s and into the 80s, the US dominated. Then, again, the technology spread globally to Europe and Asia and US fabrication facilities shut down, families were again in jeopardy. Today, the wealth creation and prosperity is centered on technology companies, which dominate lists of the most valuable companies globally. It is likely that as in the past, these firms will ultimately give way to global competition, and their employees will need to shift.

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wildermuthn 8y ago

Obviously the quoted author has never lived an upper-class American life. Context is important when speaking about America. We have the third-largest population in the world and a larger degree in inequality than most of the countries in our GDP-bracket. There is no better place to live in the world if you are intelligent, determined, healthy, and ideally, rich and well-connected. As for the justice of such a situation, well, this is the perennial American debate: is inequality actually a good thing, or are we in a zero-sum game where wealth is a pie that never grows? See Paul Graham’s essays, as always.

johan_larson 8y ago

Well, yeah, the Europeans have good work-life balance. But that comes at a price. European rates for software developers are way below what they are the US. Also, there are far fewer big opportunities. There simply aren't any FAANG-tier companies in Europe. They're all American, and there are a few players in that league in Asia. But Europe doesn't have any.

drcode 8y ago

The days when typical food and drink in Europe is better than in the US are also mostly gone. Whenever I go to a fancy restaurant in, say Frankfurt, it doesn't measure up to a comparable restaurant in my home town of Chicago (with the exception of ethnic German restaurants, which are often pretty good) Same with coffee: Twenty years ago German coffee shops had superior coffee to American ones, but whereas American coffee has vastly improved, European shops have in general been content to remain static in quality.

Mugwort 8y ago

I found this rather satisfying answer. "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - John Steinbeck Are you temporarily embarrassed? You may not realise it, but you could be a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. Do you plan to someday in the future have more money? Are you concerned that your taxes are too high, because someday you might pay too much tax. Do you ride the bus only because this year you can’t afford that luxury car you’re going to have? Do you live pay cheque to pay cheque like most people just because you haven’t had your lucky break. You aren’t rich and it’s very unlikely you ever will be. The economic and power systems of this planet are not designed for you to get rich. The American dream doesn’t exist and it never did. Stop being a temporarily embarrassed millionaire and just be a person.

sproketboy 8y ago

Because they aren't

JaceLightning 8y ago

Are they really? I can own a 6000 square foot house for $2,500/ month in most of the country. Try doing that in Europe.

ab71e5 8y ago
I mean you totally can, in eastern Europe. But you're missing the point of the article, which is that Europeans supposedly enjoy a more 'rich' life in other ways than material goods. Although I do not fully agree, most of Europe is not that different.
degrews 8y ago
I don't agree with the original article at all, but I find this comment quite ironic. Almost no European except for the very rich is thinking about owning a 6000 square foot house, it's just not a priority. But it doesn't surprise me that an American would. And I think that difference is illustrative of the American vs European narrative the author is alluding to. The aspiration of owning a 6000 square foot house probably costs the American a lot of things the European _would_ value: not having to be so career-focused to make enough money, not having to take on as much debt, living in a higher-density urban area which makes other things mentioned in the article possible (taking the train, going to cafes, casually stopping for groceries, all the while being surrounded by other people)...

apexalpha 8y ago

This won't do well on a forum where all Americans are in the top 10% of social class. Also, don't forget that Europe as a whole is poorer than the US. Sure, it's better to be poor in the EU than in the US but the top class can go much, much higher. A €80k salary is really on the higher end here in Europe, while Americans in IT seems to sometimes start on it. Even though his points regarding GMO are too extreme, I think food quality and health might be the only 2 things the US is worse at than the EU. But again, you don't notice this if you're in rich in the US.

coleifer 8y ago

> Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? That final question he's quoting is from the alcoholics anonymous literature. I wonder if he knows that? Another good one: > Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows...

xutopia 8y ago

I worked a few years in Paris and then in Canada... often for American companies. Even if he exaggerates a bit the points many of my colleagues who did similar stints is that "In Europe you work to live. In North America you live to work." And don't get me started about food... many Americans think whipped cream is that sweetened white colored oil in a can.

matthieubrg 8y ago

It all comes from the individualism and egocentrism and bullying of US culture. "It is made up of littler myths about greed being good, the weak deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a lever, for the survival of the fittest". You've been raised and thought to only think and work for yourself and consider your interests first...Until someone gets cancer and you have to launch a GoFundMe campaign and hope it'll not ruin your entire family. We sure have a lot of issues in Europe and by no mean are perfect societies or have the greatest companies. But at least we help each other, we support the less fortunate, we protect the weakest. And that's how you improve quality of life, life expectancy, a build a better society overall. I'm happy to give a significant part of my income to the government if it helps people survive and live better. And what you don't actually realize is that people are doing the same for you, because you might one day need it. Now why don't we have as many unicorns as you do in the U.S.? Because we're a bit more precautious and risk-averse, it's true.We don't go as fast and as strong as you. We first think 'Is this possible? safe? legal? right?' and then go on making the thing. While you just go, build it and ask questions later... which is an amazing fearless mindset which allowed you to accomplish incredible thing but which also leads to Facebook fucking up all over the world, Amazon treating their employees like slaves, or Boeing killing 350+ people because a 2nd safety system is too expensive.

stirfrykitty 8y ago
Fantastic comments and very true. This echoes my time spent living in Europe. As an "American" with a British father, and having lived overseas for much of my life, I still value European social mores and overall cultural far more than my American side. If I could only convince my wife to move to somewhere besides Texas. Vermont is first on the list, followed by anywhere in south rural England or Spain. Europeans tend to not get starry-eyed like Americans. I don't need or want a sports car and big-assed house. It does nothing for me other than put me behind the power curve financially. I'd rather have universal healthcare, 6 weeks paid holiday and the ability to travel cheaply in the EU bloc.

dejaime 8y ago

First world problems meme is taking on a whole new level

eqdw 8y ago

> Everything I consume in the States is of a vastly, abysmally lower quality. Every single thing. The food, the media, little things like fashion, art, public spaces, the emotional context, the work environment, and life in general make me less sane, happy, alive This is more a reflection on the author than a reflection on America. There are plenty of extremely high quality things available here and it's not America's fault if OP settles for junk instead

Debugreality 8y ago

If you look at America like a giant company then the American dream was somewhat alike to company vision statement. Having a vision statement like that seems to have helped a lot in the past, perhaps better than companies with no vision. One of the biggest issues with these kind of top level visions is they are pretty much set forever and even if they are not working anymore it is extremely hard to replace them with something else. But perhaps it's time to start trying?

RickJWagner 8y ago

Why, just look at Mick Jagger! This week he could have used the fine health care provided by the UK's government system. Instead, he opted to pay for service in an American hospital. What's wrong with Mick? Doesn't he recognize superior quality in healthcare when he sees it?