19 ms·

The Heart of a Swimmer vs. the Heart of a Runner

334 points by philonoist 8y ago

mont 8y ago
It's certainly an interesting finding, but I wonder if there are any long term implications of it? Especially as swimming should be easier on the knees than running is.
- paulcole 8y ago
  Is running hard on the knees? I see a large number of older people running here in Portland, OR. As a runner myself, the study I’ve chosen to believe shows that running may actually be good for the knees. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/well/move/running-may-be-good-for-your-knees.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/well/move/running-may-be-...
  - ohaideredevs 8y ago
    Shortening my stride length was the best fitness change I made recently. Dramatically less stress on the knees, but now I have some pain on top of my ankles, which, I hope, is not-joint related. Not sure what to do about that one. As far as the study - I don't see any actionable info there.
    - crikli 8y ago
      > I have some pain on top of my ankles I had this very issue and changing my shoes resolved it. I had transitioned from off-road running over hilly trails, to very aggressive ascents followed by steep an often technical descents. The Brooks Cascadias that were awesome for the hilly trails weren't working for the steep techy stuff. Moving into Saucony Peregrino Isos that have a stiffer upper and much burlier tread solved the issue almost immediately. No idea what kind of mileage you're covering or terrain you're running, but footwear can be a real maker/breaker as the mileage gets longer and the terrain gets gnarlier.
      - mrbonner 8y ago
        I never have any issue with my knees. I’ve been running 12 miles a week for over 4 years now. I’m not a fast runner either, average about 9.5 minute mile. I find that pace keep me going and can relax when I run. The pain on top of the ankle recently creeps up to me. I think it is related to how I tie my laces. If I loosen them a bit it feels a lot better. I will go to a runner store to have them pick my next shoes.
        crikli 8y ago
        > I will go to a runner store to have them pick my next shoes. Do this now if you can afford it. Try to find one of the smaller stores that really focuses on runners and is staffed by avid runners. A good store will have a treadmill and cameras to be able to look at your stride and make recommendations on both your stride pattern as well as your shoes. It was a running store that helped me find the Saucony shoes that have helped my ankle issues go away. :) You could maybe also be dealing with an imbalance of strength between your hamstring and quadriceps. When runners have joint issues this can be the culprit or at least a key contributor. Adding in a couple sessions a week of weight training that include movements like deadlifts, good mornings, and back squats can strengthen the posterior chain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_chain) and address those imbalances.
        mrbonner 8y ago
        Cool and thanks! I'll make a trip to the running store in downtown soon. Like you said, it's small shop and hopefully run by knowledgeable staff. I used to wear ASIC for over 10 years. I notice that the quality has gone down a bit: cheaper material, shorter laces and mostly I cannot find a wider size. I switched to Brooks in 2017 and it seems to be OK (wide size). I also heard a lot of recommendations for Saucony. Let's hear what the running store's staff suggest. You're also very on point w.r.t weight training! I quit going to 24-hour fitness in 2015 because of commute change. So now I mostly exercise by running outdoor. I need to sign up for gym again to squat.
        8y ago
    - stronglikedan 8y ago
      > Shortening my stride length [...] now I have some pain on top of my ankles Same. I just took a month off, after three months of dealing with that pain. Seems to have gone away, but I just started back a couple of days ago and haven't gone all out just yet. I also switched to super-cushioned shoes (Hoka Bondi). I figure I'm running for exercise, not performance, so now I'm prioritizing safety over speed. It's no fun if you can't run at all.
    - notacoward 8y ago
      FWIW, I've found that the best way to shorten stride length is not to think about stride length. For many people, that will result in a very unnatural stride. Instead, focusing on increased cadence will cause stride length to decrease more naturally.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Running with a minimalist shoe helps protect your knees. You learn to strike with your middle foot rather than flat-footed or heel first. The shock is absorbed by the muscles and tendons in your calf rather than by your knees.
    - Fricken 8y ago
      Going back to when I was a teen I've never been able to keep up a running habit on pavement for more than a week before my knees hurt too much to keep going, but I've never had a problem running on trails and broken ground. I did parkour for years, and at my peak I could jump from 12 feet up to pavement, everyone told me I was going to wreck my knees, it never happened. at 42 my knees are great but for the fact that I can't run regularly on pavement, and never could.
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      Yes, but... Please don't jump into minimal shoes and expect to do your normal mileage. Or, use them as your first running shoe, if you aren't a runner. Transitioning to them too quickly can lead to different overuse injuries (due to your body being used to heel-striking, and now you'er doing it without cushion). Start with a short run, on the track if you can, with PERFECT form. As a semi-serious runner (sub-20 5k at 42 years old, ~20 miles/week), I've found it best to rotate shoes, not just to minimize wear on a given pair (cushioning can take a day to fully rebound from a long run), but also "horses for courses". Cushioned trainers for long runs. Light-weight racers for speed work and races. Trail shoes for off-road. Etc.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    As best I can tell, running and knee problems, like most sports injuries, are generally self-induced and avoidable (at least for over-use injuries). Also, my opinion... running is one of the first sports sedentary people will attempt. It's cheap (just need shoes), accessible (no special field, no special skill), and high calorie burn for time spent. Running does pound your leg joints. Especially if you heel strike badly. And do so in inadequate shoes (cheap cross-trainers). And this is exacerbated by being over-weight. All correctable and avoidable (good form, good shoes, slow ramp-up and diet control). But, people don't know what they don't know, and if they get shin splint or knee pain, they're likely to quit and blame it on "running is bad for you".
    - notacoward 8y ago
      > And do so in inadequate shoes This is why I hate the "just go minimal" cargo cult. Yes, some people will notice how it highlights their heel-striking ways and will make the necessary adjustments. Others will not, and they'll end up smashing their feet even more than before. For them - and I think they're more numerous - minimal shoes are the exactly wrong answer. Not all runners are lithe twenty-somethings. Some are built differently, and react differently, and need different shoes. ETA: Yes, it's a shame that heavily padded shoes are the default. They shouldn't be. And minimal shoes are great for some people. All I'm saying is that "go minimal" has become the "do you even lift" of running, and I find it just as unhelpful. It's not a universal prescription.
      - alistairSH 8y ago
        I have a pair of NB Minimus Trail. They're great for what I use them for... short runs on vacation, usually on mixed terrain. And walking around casually (weekend errands, etc). I don't think I'd ever run in them as my primary trainer. Even if I didn't fear injury, I'm just not convinced they'd be any faster than a good trainer, plus a road race shoe for race day.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    Running the wrong way is hard on the knees and everything else, and is surprisingly common even among those who run a lot. When I started running nearly five years ago, I quickly realized that I was doing it wrong. A little research on stride and foot landings, a few adjustments, and things were a lot better. If I'd kept running the "naive" way I'm sure I would have wrecked my knees in no time. As it is, I've had fewer injuries (and illnesses!) than before I started. As with most systems in the body, making your knees work a bit is likely to be beneficial. BTW, one irony with running form is that it's often the young fast folks who are the worst. I often see some high-school or college kid zipping by with atrocious form, because at that age it's easy to get away with. I cringe when I think of what's going to happen when they get older, their bodies change, and they're still slamming their feet into the pavement. By contrast, older runners tend to be more careful about form. The ones who aren't tend to become non-runners very quickly.
- js2 8y ago
  Like all repetitive activities, runners are prone to overuse injuries and the most common is to the knee. However, runners are still much better off than non-runners. Also, knee pain is almost always due to a biomechanical or strength issue. If you’re smart about your running (most runners, self included, are idiots about their running), you need not get injured and you’re way better off than sitting on the couch. That said, I don’t know what happens to the knees of swimmers, weightlifters, cyclists, etc, but inactivity is the worst thing you can do. Sorry, I just hate this very common misconception that runners are out there destroying their knees. From https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20850408/5-things-runners-should-know-about-knees/ https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20850408/5-thi... Runners don't get arthritis in their knees more often than nonrunners. Those are the facts. Period. If anything, long-term studies have found that runners have less incidence of knee osteoarthritis. One study[1] that followed runners and nonrunners for 18 years found that, while 20% of the runners developed arthritis during that time, 32% of the nonrunners did. A large study that looked at runners and walkers[2] found that regular runners had roughly half the rate of arthritis as regular walkers. In that second study, the runners with the highest regular mileage had the lowest rate of arthritis. 1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/ 2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    > Also, knee pain is almost always due to a biomechanical or strength issue. If you have a recurring running issue it’s one of those. I got shin splints every month. Then I stopped running for six months and started weightlifting. No one who squats is going to get shin splints.
    - vertline3 8y ago
      I got shin splints because my calves were too strong, so I worked on that issue of strengthening the front, and flexibility.
    - DrOctagon 8y ago
      Shin splints is the classic injury for enthusiastic people who see aerobic improvements that outpace the strengthening of muscle, tendon and bone. Shin splints is almost unheard of amongst experienced runners. It's fantastic that squats helped you, but if you are primarily looking to improve your running then months of training at a lower intensity, to avoid the shin splints, is much more productive than stop-start training resulting from the need to let your injury heal.
- dr_ 8y ago
  There’s some evidence that suggests adipose tissue can be an inflammatory mediator - which potential could lead to arthritic changes in joints. This is used to explain why we get arthritis not only in weight bearing joints such as the knees and hips, but also in the digits of the hands, which don’t bear as much weight. Presumably as a regular runner, you are not overweight (less adipose tissue than a more sedentary person)
- alecco 8y ago
  Swimming has its own set of injuries. Shoulders in particular. Also your skin gets bad with all the chlorine unless you shower thoroughly +before+ and after, and apply moisturizer. None of the swimmers I know only shower afterwards, including women.
  - falcolas 8y ago
    Second this on the repetitive stress injuries. Strong breaststroke swimmers can have knee issues due to the lateral force on a joint that doesn't move laterally. For shoulders - rotary cuff injuries are incredibly common, especially since the muscles developed by swimming are far larger and stronger than the muscles which hold the joints in place. 20+ years after finishing my swimming career, I still have to deal with both of those repetitive injuries.
maaaats 8y ago
In the article it's stipulated it's because of gravity. But it's also mentioned in passing that swimmers hold their breath. I wonder, is there any effect in being able to hold your breath for long when it comes to cardio? As in, I can hold my breath for 4:58, does that offer me any advantage? Or what about training with a bigger lack of oxygen, as in waiting longer between strokes to breathe or holding your breath while running, does it do any good?
- Fezzik 8y ago
  I found that sentence odd... Swimmers do not really hold their breaths often. Some training involves breath holding, and sprinters will hold their breath, but the majority of training and all distance swimming involves relatively normal breathing - the body exhausts itself quickly when there is no oxygen coming in to the system. I do masters swimming after starting to swim recreationally in college, and the first thing you learn to conserve energy is to breath normally and not hold your breath.
  - kayhi 8y ago
    Swimmers hold their breath constantly from turns to different patterns depending on the stroke. Also in freestyle it's common to breath in through your mouth and exhale through your nose which isn't like running which is all mouth breathing.
    - koboll 8y ago
      Breath control drills (i.e. "breathe once this lap" or "breathe every fourth stroke") are also standard for competitive swimmers. This study looked at top competitive athletes, who might be pursuing a different strategy than masters swimmers.
    - hawaiianbrah 8y ago
      Erm, I think it really depends on the intensity of the run. I typically breathe in through my nose and out my mouth when running at a lower intensity.
  - 8y ago
usrusr 8y ago
Hardly a word on the type of runners? Typical track and field running disciplines are a very different load than marathon or longer and the training cannot be compared at all. The same question would apply to swimming, if there were truly established long distance disciplines outside of triathlon (but even there, the swimming part takes only a fraction of the time of the others).
- adenadel 8y ago
  From the paper: 6 distance runners, 10 sprint/power, 6 sprint swimmers, 10 middle-distance/distance "For runners, sprint/power athletes were defined as those who competed in 100–400 m races and high jump, while distance athletes competed in races ≥800 m." "Short distance swimmers comprised those competing in 50–200 m races while middle-distance/distance athletes competed in 400–1500 m races." (not sure if this is paywalled or not) https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/422061/fphys-09-01700-HTML/image_m/fphys-09-01700-t001.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/422061/fphys-09-0...
- totalthrowaway 8y ago
  The study was 16 swimmers and 16 runners. From the paper itself: "For runners, sprint/power athletes were defined as those who competed in 100–400 m races and high jump, while distance athletes competed in races ≥800 m. Short distance swimmers comprised those competing in 50–200 m races while middle-distance/distance athletes competed in 400–1500 m races. Eleven swimmers swam freestyle, 3 swam breaststroke and 2 swam backstroke." The phrase "there were interesting if small differences" makes me suspect nothing statistically significant was found. Digging into the paper, I found the sentence I was expecting: "Further research is required to delineate whether these observations are a product of a superior exercise stimulus, or a necessary adaptation to promote filling during upright exercise." Any small sample of undergraduates always gives the same scientific result: more grant money required.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    But "≥800m" could be anything from "some 800 and even a 1.5k" (sub 5 minute efforts) to "mostly marathon and some ultramarathon" (multiple hours). Swimming tops out at 1.5k, which would be a sub twenty minute effort for world class athletes. The longer ones are clearly anaerobic efforts, but still a long shot from endurance disciplines. Except for those six individuals who might run utramarathons or 800 meters, we don't know. The study is nicely apples/apples if those six are well within the track running range (800, 1.5k, 5k, even 10k would be close enough in duration to 1.5k swimming which is the longest subdiscipline there), but if there are road endurance runners in the group, they will likely skew everything from a comparison between running and swimming to a badly made comparison between athletes aiming at multi-hours efforts and athletes aiming at minutes or even seconds.
djohnston 8y ago
can i get a tldr? stuck behind paywall
- PierredeFermat 8y ago
  You can check the full original study and conclusion here: https://news.nukleosome.com/t/left-ventricular-structure-and-function-in-elite-swimmers-and-runners-2018/522 https://news.nukleosome.com/t/left-ventricular-structure-and...
  - djohnston 8y ago
    thank you!
    - PierredeFermat 8y ago
      No problem! What kind of prosthetics are you working on?
- RPLong 8y ago
  right-click, open in incognito window...
  - novaRom 8y ago
    I always browse in Private Mode, but NYtimes has started to block reading in that mode.
  - djohnston 8y ago
    yeah that no longer works for me
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- premix 8y ago
  Exercise is good for your heart.
jniedrauer 8y ago
I'd like too see more study on the long term damage of endurance sports on the heart. I'm hoping to begin running marathons at the end of this year and ultramarathons next year. But reaching that level of fitness requires multi-hour runs, sometimes as many as twice a week. When training for mountaineering, I sometimes climb 5000+ feet in a day. Days like that tend to elevate my resting heart rate for up to a week afterwords. This probably means I'm sustaining heart damage, at least temporarily. There are notable case of ultra runners dying, and autopsy shows long term heart damage. Some combination of duration and intensity seems to be dangerous, but the risk factors are not well understood yet.
- assblaster 8y ago
  I think it's possible to work out too much: 1) Scar tissue formation in heart after repeated episodes of prolonged ischemia (ultra marathon) 2) early joint wear necessitating joint replacements at earlier ages (marathon, lifting) 3) ligament and tendon damage requiring surgical correction (cross fit, power lifting) 4) high regeneration of tissue causes premature aging of tissues (increased cell replication and tendency for DNA damage) I think society's glorification of extreme exercise does more harm than good.
  - wcarron 8y ago
    > I think society's glorification of extreme exercise does more harm than good. Which society? What glorification? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index#WHO_Data_on_Mean_BMI_(2014) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass..., society has clearly moved in the complete opposite direction, with approximately 30% of the world population considered obese. I am aware that BMI doesn't take into account muscle mass, but really, most people who are obese by BMI standards aren't there due to powerlifting. They are simply obese. It is possible to work out too much, for sure. Most serious exercise programs have "easy weeks" specifically to give the body time to rebuild and recover. I've done many triathlons and sure, there is glorification of the IronMan distance tri; but it should be something that is glorified. It's an incredibly challenging event and worthy of praise. If anything, I think society needs to encourage, explicitly and with great zeal: 1. Hard exercise (long runs, swimming, lifting, rugby, cycling, etc.) at a bare minimum of 3 times per week for 1 hour or more. 2. The basic physiological fact of "Calories In, Calories out". A person is fat because they consume more calories than they burn (barring certain medical conditions/medications that cause weight gain). That's it. 3. Quality fuel. Ensuring people eat foods that provide the essential amino acids, necessary vitamins and minerals, and an even macro distribution of carbs, fats, and proteins. Lastly, I would gladly trade [2, 3, 4] in exchange for living a fulfilling and healthy life spent exercising and accomplishing goals like completing an IronMan Triathlon or breaking into the thousand pound club for lifting. The other option is wasting my life eating chips on my couch and getting fat.
pcprincipal 8y ago
Long time swimmer and runner here - the biggest difference between the two IMO is the focus on lung capacity for swimming. A common swimming training set most competitive swimmers will be familiar with are "lung busters". You do a 200y free that's 50y breathing every 3 strokes, 50 every 5, 50 every 7, 25 every 9 and then a 25y butterfly without breathing. I had a coach who would have us do 6 of these on 2:45 (meaning about 15-30s of rest for strong distance swimmers). Everyone would be audibly gasping for air by the end of these. In races, how often you breathe is a critical part of race strategy. In a 50y/m free you generally shouldn't breathe at all; in a 500+ race, there are big debates about whether to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes. Additionally, how much to kick is a key part of strategy since kicking's contribution to speed is not great compared to how much oxygen it depletes. I really don't think running compares in terms of how stressful the sport is on the lungs. That said, running 400m sprints with small rest intervals is extremely hard on every part of the body and I found the muscle stress from running far greater than from swimming.
- ahawkins 8y ago
  This guy swims.
  - czbond 8y ago
    I am guessing that is a Blind app reference?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - olivermarks 8y ago
      I've run lots of trail marathons and halves and have pretty good aerobic function, but I've always had a big problem with breathing while swimming. Does anyone have any good links or thoughts on getting into a good breathing rhythm that doesn't involve running out of steam and ingesting water? My running breathing is very disciplined but it all seems to fall apart when I swim
dwighttk 8y ago
now do the knees...
batsy71 8y ago
Hiii
mathattack 8y ago
The sample size is very small. Makes me nervous about any conclusions.
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  They address that a bit, though, and they point out that this is just a cross-sectional study. I think it's more like a starting place for this research (land vs. water exercise) instead of anything meant to have hard conclusions drawn from it. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if other "news" agencies report on the NYT report with headlines like "Runners Have Much Stronger Hearts Than Swimmers, Study Says".
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
throw0101a 8y ago
If anyone is interested in cardio activities, jumping rope is another one that gives high numbers: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activitie...
ausjke 8y ago
We're really a furnace burning oxygen inside which deteriorate cells faster when you're doing sports competitively, sports are great for health, what about competitive sports? is it really that good? is there any data showing that they live longer and healthier because of those intense exercise? I exercise regularly but always had this doubt about "over-exercise" that could do more harm than good.
hellofunk 8y ago
Would love to see a comparison with bike exercise.
person_of_color 8y ago
Does anaerobic activity (lifting) improve the condition of the heart?
HankB99 8y ago
Define runner. I skimmed the article and didn't see it. Maybe I missed it. Some runners train for long distances - marathons or longer. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the sprinters who train for a short burst of maximum speed. And there are competitions for many distances between these extremes. It wouldn't surprise me if difference between these extremes were as great or greater as those between runners and swimmers.
uvu 8y ago
Does gravity really affect our health?
WMCRUN 8y ago
I was a national level 5k runner in Canada I often have doctors tell me that my resting heart rate was too low for the machine to read. The lowest I’ve clocked is 34 bpm. I assume there’s a safe limit to how low a heart rate can go, which makes me wonder what the limit to cardiovascular performance in running is.
- ausbah 8y ago
  I've heard of some professional cyclists years ago who turned their bodies into such efficient biking machines from training + drugs that when they when to sleep, there was a change of them dying in their sleep because their heart rate was so slow. They'd have to get up in the middle of the night and bike just to stay alive. Only anecdotal, but worth considering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k
  - trymas 8y ago
    I understand it's anecdata, but I still do not completely get how you can die from slow heart rate? Why heart shouldn't get a signal to beat more frequently if body starts to lack oxygen during sleep? Is it just because the blood is so thick and moving so slow it will clog and may produce a sudden heart attack? Thus you need to "manually" keep up the heart rate?
nanis 8y ago
> But even now, he says, “an important message is that all of the athletes showed better function than a normal person off the street, which supports the message that exercise is good for hearts.” Or people with good hearts become athletes and their hearts improve with exercise.

334 points by philonoist 8y ago

mont 8y ago

It's certainly an interesting finding, but I wonder if there are any long term implications of it? Especially as swimming should be easier on the knees than running is.

paulcole 8y ago
Is running hard on the knees? I see a large number of older people running here in Portland, OR. As a runner myself, the study I’ve chosen to believe shows that running may actually be good for the knees. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/well/move/running-may-be-good-for-your-knees.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/well/move/running-may-be-...
- ohaideredevs 8y ago
  Shortening my stride length was the best fitness change I made recently. Dramatically less stress on the knees, but now I have some pain on top of my ankles, which, I hope, is not-joint related. Not sure what to do about that one. As far as the study - I don't see any actionable info there.
  - crikli 8y ago
    > I have some pain on top of my ankles I had this very issue and changing my shoes resolved it. I had transitioned from off-road running over hilly trails, to very aggressive ascents followed by steep an often technical descents. The Brooks Cascadias that were awesome for the hilly trails weren't working for the steep techy stuff. Moving into Saucony Peregrino Isos that have a stiffer upper and much burlier tread solved the issue almost immediately. No idea what kind of mileage you're covering or terrain you're running, but footwear can be a real maker/breaker as the mileage gets longer and the terrain gets gnarlier.
    - mrbonner 8y ago
      I never have any issue with my knees. I’ve been running 12 miles a week for over 4 years now. I’m not a fast runner either, average about 9.5 minute mile. I find that pace keep me going and can relax when I run. The pain on top of the ankle recently creeps up to me. I think it is related to how I tie my laces. If I loosen them a bit it feels a lot better. I will go to a runner store to have them pick my next shoes.
      - crikli 8y ago
        > I will go to a runner store to have them pick my next shoes. Do this now if you can afford it. Try to find one of the smaller stores that really focuses on runners and is staffed by avid runners. A good store will have a treadmill and cameras to be able to look at your stride and make recommendations on both your stride pattern as well as your shoes. It was a running store that helped me find the Saucony shoes that have helped my ankle issues go away. :) You could maybe also be dealing with an imbalance of strength between your hamstring and quadriceps. When runners have joint issues this can be the culprit or at least a key contributor. Adding in a couple sessions a week of weight training that include movements like deadlifts, good mornings, and back squats can strengthen the posterior chain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_chain) and address those imbalances.
        mrbonner 8y ago
        Cool and thanks! I'll make a trip to the running store in downtown soon. Like you said, it's small shop and hopefully run by knowledgeable staff. I used to wear ASIC for over 10 years. I notice that the quality has gone down a bit: cheaper material, shorter laces and mostly I cannot find a wider size. I switched to Brooks in 2017 and it seems to be OK (wide size). I also heard a lot of recommendations for Saucony. Let's hear what the running store's staff suggest. You're also very on point w.r.t weight training! I quit going to 24-hour fitness in 2015 because of commute change. So now I mostly exercise by running outdoor. I need to sign up for gym again to squat.
        8y ago
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    > Shortening my stride length [...] now I have some pain on top of my ankles Same. I just took a month off, after three months of dealing with that pain. Seems to have gone away, but I just started back a couple of days ago and haven't gone all out just yet. I also switched to super-cushioned shoes (Hoka Bondi). I figure I'm running for exercise, not performance, so now I'm prioritizing safety over speed. It's no fun if you can't run at all.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    FWIW, I've found that the best way to shorten stride length is not to think about stride length. For many people, that will result in a very unnatural stride. Instead, focusing on increased cadence will cause stride length to decrease more naturally.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Running with a minimalist shoe helps protect your knees. You learn to strike with your middle foot rather than flat-footed or heel first. The shock is absorbed by the muscles and tendons in your calf rather than by your knees.
  - Fricken 8y ago
    Going back to when I was a teen I've never been able to keep up a running habit on pavement for more than a week before my knees hurt too much to keep going, but I've never had a problem running on trails and broken ground. I did parkour for years, and at my peak I could jump from 12 feet up to pavement, everyone told me I was going to wreck my knees, it never happened. at 42 my knees are great but for the fact that I can't run regularly on pavement, and never could.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    Yes, but... Please don't jump into minimal shoes and expect to do your normal mileage. Or, use them as your first running shoe, if you aren't a runner. Transitioning to them too quickly can lead to different overuse injuries (due to your body being used to heel-striking, and now you'er doing it without cushion). Start with a short run, on the track if you can, with PERFECT form. As a semi-serious runner (sub-20 5k at 42 years old, ~20 miles/week), I've found it best to rotate shoes, not just to minimize wear on a given pair (cushioning can take a day to fully rebound from a long run), but also "horses for courses". Cushioned trainers for long runs. Light-weight racers for speed work and races. Trail shoes for off-road. Etc.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  As best I can tell, running and knee problems, like most sports injuries, are generally self-induced and avoidable (at least for over-use injuries). Also, my opinion... running is one of the first sports sedentary people will attempt. It's cheap (just need shoes), accessible (no special field, no special skill), and high calorie burn for time spent. Running does pound your leg joints. Especially if you heel strike badly. And do so in inadequate shoes (cheap cross-trainers). And this is exacerbated by being over-weight. All correctable and avoidable (good form, good shoes, slow ramp-up and diet control). But, people don't know what they don't know, and if they get shin splint or knee pain, they're likely to quit and blame it on "running is bad for you".
  - notacoward 8y ago
    > And do so in inadequate shoes This is why I hate the "just go minimal" cargo cult. Yes, some people will notice how it highlights their heel-striking ways and will make the necessary adjustments. Others will not, and they'll end up smashing their feet even more than before. For them - and I think they're more numerous - minimal shoes are the exactly wrong answer. Not all runners are lithe twenty-somethings. Some are built differently, and react differently, and need different shoes. ETA: Yes, it's a shame that heavily padded shoes are the default. They shouldn't be. And minimal shoes are great for some people. All I'm saying is that "go minimal" has become the "do you even lift" of running, and I find it just as unhelpful. It's not a universal prescription.
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      I have a pair of NB Minimus Trail. They're great for what I use them for... short runs on vacation, usually on mixed terrain. And walking around casually (weekend errands, etc). I don't think I'd ever run in them as my primary trainer. Even if I didn't fear injury, I'm just not convinced they'd be any faster than a good trainer, plus a road race shoe for race day.
- notacoward 8y ago
  Running the wrong way is hard on the knees and everything else, and is surprisingly common even among those who run a lot. When I started running nearly five years ago, I quickly realized that I was doing it wrong. A little research on stride and foot landings, a few adjustments, and things were a lot better. If I'd kept running the "naive" way I'm sure I would have wrecked my knees in no time. As it is, I've had fewer injuries (and illnesses!) than before I started. As with most systems in the body, making your knees work a bit is likely to be beneficial. BTW, one irony with running form is that it's often the young fast folks who are the worst. I often see some high-school or college kid zipping by with atrocious form, because at that age it's easy to get away with. I cringe when I think of what's going to happen when they get older, their bodies change, and they're still slamming their feet into the pavement. By contrast, older runners tend to be more careful about form. The ones who aren't tend to become non-runners very quickly.
js2 8y ago
Like all repetitive activities, runners are prone to overuse injuries and the most common is to the knee. However, runners are still much better off than non-runners. Also, knee pain is almost always due to a biomechanical or strength issue. If you’re smart about your running (most runners, self included, are idiots about their running), you need not get injured and you’re way better off than sitting on the couch. That said, I don’t know what happens to the knees of swimmers, weightlifters, cyclists, etc, but inactivity is the worst thing you can do. Sorry, I just hate this very common misconception that runners are out there destroying their knees. From https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20850408/5-things-runners-should-know-about-knees/ https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20850408/5-thi... Runners don't get arthritis in their knees more often than nonrunners. Those are the facts. Period. If anything, long-term studies have found that runners have less incidence of knee osteoarthritis. One study[1] that followed runners and nonrunners for 18 years found that, while 20% of the runners developed arthritis during that time, 32% of the nonrunners did. A large study that looked at runners and walkers[2] found that regular runners had roughly half the rate of arthritis as regular walkers. In that second study, the runners with the highest regular mileage had the lowest rate of arthritis. 1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/ 2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  > Also, knee pain is almost always due to a biomechanical or strength issue. If you have a recurring running issue it’s one of those. I got shin splints every month. Then I stopped running for six months and started weightlifting. No one who squats is going to get shin splints.
  - vertline3 8y ago
    I got shin splints because my calves were too strong, so I worked on that issue of strengthening the front, and flexibility.
  - DrOctagon 8y ago
    Shin splints is the classic injury for enthusiastic people who see aerobic improvements that outpace the strengthening of muscle, tendon and bone. Shin splints is almost unheard of amongst experienced runners. It's fantastic that squats helped you, but if you are primarily looking to improve your running then months of training at a lower intensity, to avoid the shin splints, is much more productive than stop-start training resulting from the need to let your injury heal.
dr_ 8y ago
There’s some evidence that suggests adipose tissue can be an inflammatory mediator - which potential could lead to arthritic changes in joints. This is used to explain why we get arthritis not only in weight bearing joints such as the knees and hips, but also in the digits of the hands, which don’t bear as much weight. Presumably as a regular runner, you are not overweight (less adipose tissue than a more sedentary person)
alecco 8y ago
Swimming has its own set of injuries. Shoulders in particular. Also your skin gets bad with all the chlorine unless you shower thoroughly +before+ and after, and apply moisturizer. None of the swimmers I know only shower afterwards, including women.
- falcolas 8y ago
  Second this on the repetitive stress injuries. Strong breaststroke swimmers can have knee issues due to the lateral force on a joint that doesn't move laterally. For shoulders - rotary cuff injuries are incredibly common, especially since the muscles developed by swimming are far larger and stronger than the muscles which hold the joints in place. 20+ years after finishing my swimming career, I still have to deal with both of those repetitive injuries.

maaaats 8y ago

In the article it's stipulated it's because of gravity. But it's also mentioned in passing that swimmers hold their breath. I wonder, is there any effect in being able to hold your breath for long when it comes to cardio? As in, I can hold my breath for 4:58, does that offer me any advantage? Or what about training with a bigger lack of oxygen, as in waiting longer between strokes to breathe or holding your breath while running, does it do any good?

Fezzik 8y ago
I found that sentence odd... Swimmers do not really hold their breaths often. Some training involves breath holding, and sprinters will hold their breath, but the majority of training and all distance swimming involves relatively normal breathing - the body exhausts itself quickly when there is no oxygen coming in to the system. I do masters swimming after starting to swim recreationally in college, and the first thing you learn to conserve energy is to breath normally and not hold your breath.
- kayhi 8y ago
  Swimmers hold their breath constantly from turns to different patterns depending on the stroke. Also in freestyle it's common to breath in through your mouth and exhale through your nose which isn't like running which is all mouth breathing.
  - koboll 8y ago
    Breath control drills (i.e. "breathe once this lap" or "breathe every fourth stroke") are also standard for competitive swimmers. This study looked at top competitive athletes, who might be pursuing a different strategy than masters swimmers.
  - hawaiianbrah 8y ago
    Erm, I think it really depends on the intensity of the run. I typically breathe in through my nose and out my mouth when running at a lower intensity.
- 8y ago

usrusr 8y ago

Hardly a word on the type of runners? Typical track and field running disciplines are a very different load than marathon or longer and the training cannot be compared at all. The same question would apply to swimming, if there were truly established long distance disciplines outside of triathlon (but even there, the swimming part takes only a fraction of the time of the others).

adenadel 8y ago
From the paper: 6 distance runners, 10 sprint/power, 6 sprint swimmers, 10 middle-distance/distance "For runners, sprint/power athletes were defined as those who competed in 100–400 m races and high jump, while distance athletes competed in races ≥800 m." "Short distance swimmers comprised those competing in 50–200 m races while middle-distance/distance athletes competed in 400–1500 m races." (not sure if this is paywalled or not) https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/422061/fphys-09-01700-HTML/image_m/fphys-09-01700-t001.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/422061/fphys-09-0...
totalthrowaway 8y ago
The study was 16 swimmers and 16 runners. From the paper itself: "For runners, sprint/power athletes were defined as those who competed in 100–400 m races and high jump, while distance athletes competed in races ≥800 m. Short distance swimmers comprised those competing in 50–200 m races while middle-distance/distance athletes competed in 400–1500 m races. Eleven swimmers swam freestyle, 3 swam breaststroke and 2 swam backstroke." The phrase "there were interesting if small differences" makes me suspect nothing statistically significant was found. Digging into the paper, I found the sentence I was expecting: "Further research is required to delineate whether these observations are a product of a superior exercise stimulus, or a necessary adaptation to promote filling during upright exercise." Any small sample of undergraduates always gives the same scientific result: more grant money required.
- usrusr 8y ago
  But "≥800m" could be anything from "some 800 and even a 1.5k" (sub 5 minute efforts) to "mostly marathon and some ultramarathon" (multiple hours). Swimming tops out at 1.5k, which would be a sub twenty minute effort for world class athletes. The longer ones are clearly anaerobic efforts, but still a long shot from endurance disciplines. Except for those six individuals who might run utramarathons or 800 meters, we don't know. The study is nicely apples/apples if those six are well within the track running range (800, 1.5k, 5k, even 10k would be close enough in duration to 1.5k swimming which is the longest subdiscipline there), but if there are road endurance runners in the group, they will likely skew everything from a comparison between running and swimming to a badly made comparison between athletes aiming at multi-hours efforts and athletes aiming at minutes or even seconds.

djohnston 8y ago

can i get a tldr? stuck behind paywall

PierredeFermat 8y ago
You can check the full original study and conclusion here: https://news.nukleosome.com/t/left-ventricular-structure-and-function-in-elite-swimmers-and-runners-2018/522 https://news.nukleosome.com/t/left-ventricular-structure-and...
- djohnston 8y ago
  thank you!
  - PierredeFermat 8y ago
    No problem! What kind of prosthetics are you working on?
RPLong 8y ago
right-click, open in incognito window...
- novaRom 8y ago
  I always browse in Private Mode, but NYtimes has started to block reading in that mode.
- djohnston 8y ago
  yeah that no longer works for me
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
premix 8y ago
Exercise is good for your heart.

jniedrauer 8y ago

I'd like too see more study on the long term damage of endurance sports on the heart. I'm hoping to begin running marathons at the end of this year and ultramarathons next year. But reaching that level of fitness requires multi-hour runs, sometimes as many as twice a week. When training for mountaineering, I sometimes climb 5000+ feet in a day. Days like that tend to elevate my resting heart rate for up to a week afterwords. This probably means I'm sustaining heart damage, at least temporarily. There are notable case of ultra runners dying, and autopsy shows long term heart damage. Some combination of duration and intensity seems to be dangerous, but the risk factors are not well understood yet.

assblaster 8y ago
I think it's possible to work out too much: 1) Scar tissue formation in heart after repeated episodes of prolonged ischemia (ultra marathon) 2) early joint wear necessitating joint replacements at earlier ages (marathon, lifting) 3) ligament and tendon damage requiring surgical correction (cross fit, power lifting) 4) high regeneration of tissue causes premature aging of tissues (increased cell replication and tendency for DNA damage) I think society's glorification of extreme exercise does more harm than good.
- wcarron 8y ago
  > I think society's glorification of extreme exercise does more harm than good. Which society? What glorification? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index#WHO_Data_on_Mean_BMI_(2014) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass..., society has clearly moved in the complete opposite direction, with approximately 30% of the world population considered obese. I am aware that BMI doesn't take into account muscle mass, but really, most people who are obese by BMI standards aren't there due to powerlifting. They are simply obese. It is possible to work out too much, for sure. Most serious exercise programs have "easy weeks" specifically to give the body time to rebuild and recover. I've done many triathlons and sure, there is glorification of the IronMan distance tri; but it should be something that is glorified. It's an incredibly challenging event and worthy of praise. If anything, I think society needs to encourage, explicitly and with great zeal: 1. Hard exercise (long runs, swimming, lifting, rugby, cycling, etc.) at a bare minimum of 3 times per week for 1 hour or more. 2. The basic physiological fact of "Calories In, Calories out". A person is fat because they consume more calories than they burn (barring certain medical conditions/medications that cause weight gain). That's it. 3. Quality fuel. Ensuring people eat foods that provide the essential amino acids, necessary vitamins and minerals, and an even macro distribution of carbs, fats, and proteins. Lastly, I would gladly trade [2, 3, 4] in exchange for living a fulfilling and healthy life spent exercising and accomplishing goals like completing an IronMan Triathlon or breaking into the thousand pound club for lifting. The other option is wasting my life eating chips on my couch and getting fat.

pcprincipal 8y ago

Long time swimmer and runner here - the biggest difference between the two IMO is the focus on lung capacity for swimming. A common swimming training set most competitive swimmers will be familiar with are "lung busters". You do a 200y free that's 50y breathing every 3 strokes, 50 every 5, 50 every 7, 25 every 9 and then a 25y butterfly without breathing. I had a coach who would have us do 6 of these on 2:45 (meaning about 15-30s of rest for strong distance swimmers). Everyone would be audibly gasping for air by the end of these. In races, how often you breathe is a critical part of race strategy. In a 50y/m free you generally shouldn't breathe at all; in a 500+ race, there are big debates about whether to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes. Additionally, how much to kick is a key part of strategy since kicking's contribution to speed is not great compared to how much oxygen it depletes. I really don't think running compares in terms of how stressful the sport is on the lungs. That said, running 400m sprints with small rest intervals is extremely hard on every part of the body and I found the muscle stress from running far greater than from swimming.

ahawkins 8y ago
This guy swims.
- czbond 8y ago
  I am guessing that is a Blind app reference?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - olivermarks 8y ago
    I've run lots of trail marathons and halves and have pretty good aerobic function, but I've always had a big problem with breathing while swimming. Does anyone have any good links or thoughts on getting into a good breathing rhythm that doesn't involve running out of steam and ingesting water? My running breathing is very disciplined but it all seems to fall apart when I swim

dwighttk 8y ago

now do the knees...

batsy71 8y ago

Hiii

mathattack 8y ago

The sample size is very small. Makes me nervous about any conclusions.

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
They address that a bit, though, and they point out that this is just a cross-sectional study. I think it's more like a starting place for this research (land vs. water exercise) instead of anything meant to have hard conclusions drawn from it. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if other "news" agencies report on the NYT report with headlines like "Runners Have Much Stronger Hearts Than Swimmers, Study Says".

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

throw0101a 8y ago

If anyone is interested in cardio activities, jumping rope is another one that gives high numbers: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activitie...

ausjke 8y ago

We're really a furnace burning oxygen inside which deteriorate cells faster when you're doing sports competitively, sports are great for health, what about competitive sports? is it really that good? is there any data showing that they live longer and healthier because of those intense exercise? I exercise regularly but always had this doubt about "over-exercise" that could do more harm than good.

hellofunk 8y ago

Would love to see a comparison with bike exercise.

person_of_color 8y ago

Does anaerobic activity (lifting) improve the condition of the heart?

HankB99 8y ago

Define runner. I skimmed the article and didn't see it. Maybe I missed it. Some runners train for long distances - marathons or longer. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the sprinters who train for a short burst of maximum speed. And there are competitions for many distances between these extremes. It wouldn't surprise me if difference between these extremes were as great or greater as those between runners and swimmers.

uvu 8y ago

Does gravity really affect our health?

WMCRUN 8y ago

I was a national level 5k runner in Canada I often have doctors tell me that my resting heart rate was too low for the machine to read. The lowest I’ve clocked is 34 bpm. I assume there’s a safe limit to how low a heart rate can go, which makes me wonder what the limit to cardiovascular performance in running is.

ausbah 8y ago
I've heard of some professional cyclists years ago who turned their bodies into such efficient biking machines from training + drugs that when they when to sleep, there was a change of them dying in their sleep because their heart rate was so slow. They'd have to get up in the middle of the night and bike just to stay alive. Only anecdotal, but worth considering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k
- trymas 8y ago
  I understand it's anecdata, but I still do not completely get how you can die from slow heart rate? Why heart shouldn't get a signal to beat more frequently if body starts to lack oxygen during sleep? Is it just because the blood is so thick and moving so slow it will clog and may produce a sudden heart attack? Thus you need to "manually" keep up the heart rate?

nanis 8y ago

> But even now, he says, “an important message is that all of the athletes showed better function than a normal person off the street, which supports the message that exercise is good for hearts.” Or people with good hearts become athletes and their hearts improve with exercise.