16 ms·

Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

328 points by howard941 8y ago

patient_zero 8y ago
What I find sad about this (and other articles like this) is when the time comes within the article to lay out how to avoid burnout and stress, the list nevver includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood but I really hope that we can at least stop blaming ourselves for the ridiculous work/life ratio we currently must shoulder to live. Off the top of my head, there should be a moratorium on requiring email responses for non-essentials outside of office hours. I'd like to get rid of most salaried positions and get people paid by the hour. I've a sneaking suspicion that all the crazy hours that are currently "required by the times" would miraculously evaporate once employers were charged for the time they demand of their people.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  I consider myself “paid by the hour” even if I’m not formally paid by the hour. I log my time and have a bank of hours that can’t go outside +/-20 hours. If I did 41 hours last week I’ll do 39 next week. I’ll never take a position where I do more than 40h on average. There is no amount of money that will be compensation enough for regular 45h weeks.
  - esoterica 8y ago
    That's a pretty silly line to draw in the sand. No amount of compensation to work 45 hours, really? Even if someone offered you enough money to retire 20 years early, you'd rather spend an extra 20 years doing the 9-5 just to avoid spending 1 extra hour a day at work? If you made enough money you could easily save 10+ hours a week by moving closer to work, paying people to run errands for you etc. You could easily have more free time working 50 hours a week than someone with less money would working 40.
    - alkonaut 8y ago
      Anything has a price of course, but realistically there is no position that would let me retire earlier (nor do I want to). My 40h is also already 100% remote, so very hard to improve on in terms of commutes etc. In fact, if I were to switch to non-remote I’d never accept a 40h ass-in-seat position either.
      - esoterica 8y ago
        Even a 20% pay raise would let you retire several years earlier, assuming you don't spend any of the extra pay.
        alkonaut 8y ago
        A 20% pay rise is 10% after taxes here and wouldn’t make a huge difference. Also, I hope and intend to work well into my 70s. For that I need to not burn out in my 40s. I’m happy with what I do. I don’t need more money or more years retired. I need a job I’m happy with, money for bills and time with my family now. I pick up kids from school every day at 4 and make them dinner at 5. All this must sound pretty foreign to Americans...
        airbreather 8y ago
        Aussie?
        alkonaut 8y ago
        Close. Swede
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        paganel 8y ago
        > Also, I hope and intend to work well into my 70s. For that I need to not burn out in my 40s. Glad I’m not the only one having this exact line of thought about my future career. If it matters I live in Eastern Europe and I’m approaching 40.
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    Yup, exactly. Excluding those that are very low on the income scale, for whom everyone agrees life is difficult, I simply don't understand the claims of inescapable demands on skilled white-collar workers' time. If you're making any sort of non-negligible surplus above the basics, then you're at some level making a conscious choice of that surplus (usually for consumption) over a lower-stress job. I have a friend who's a quant at Goldman Sachs, whose work life is miserable but who makes a good 150k more than me. His labor isn't (currently) valued at more than mine: I could get a similar TC with little effort and a much _better_ working environment, but I have absolutely no interest: I'm consciously trading off compensation consumption for a better work-life balance. The flipside is that he's consciously trading off quality of life for more compensation, for whatever his personal reasons are. It's bizarre to me to claim that it's a bad thing that that choice is presented to him (or to me for that matter). I get that this sounds like a general-purpose argument against worker protections, but there's a key difference: in the absence of a robust, UBI-like safety net, we as a society have accepted that coercion can include nominally consensual actions taken to avoid bumping up against a lack of whatever we've defined as the basic necessities that everyone is entitled to (food, shelter, etc). But the work burnout problem is, statistically, almost entirely a middle- and upper-class problem[1], and these are precisely the people who have the comp surplus to consciously choose to trade off compensation for a better quality of life. I know as always the dimmer readers of comments like this will pattern-match this to the victim-blaming buzzword, but you can simultaneously bemoan the state of a culture and work to improve your lot within it. In this case, there's a fairly simple, concrete solution: perform worse at your current job by putting in less hours or get a job that isn't so rigid as to require a number of hours above what you find to be your healthy level. [1] the job-related woes of lower income people tend to involve not being able to get enough employment and thus enough income to live off of
    - mratzloff 8y ago
      > perform worse at your current job by putting in less hours Citation needed. Edit: So self-evident is this equation to some people that they down vote the mere suggestion that working longer hours does not make you better at your job.
  - ravenstine 8y ago
    Hopefully you didn't learn this from doing overtime, paid or voluntary? I had to learn the hard way, in part because my dad is naturally a hard worker, so I think I took after him. Eventually I figured out that working more hours virtually never pays off, and it's stupid anyway because even if you're getting paid you're still trading even more of your life away.
    - mgkimsal 8y ago
      > and it's stupid anyway because even if you're getting paid you're still trading even more of your life away. when you 'trade' you get something of value in return. if you're getting paid and you think it's a fair pay, it's not automatically 'stupid'. saving more now to pay for future expenses, nest egg, rainy day fund, whatever? how can that be 'stupid'? You have an opportunity to provide the means for a more secure future for your family, today, when that ability may be in doubt - take the pay now for more work. your dad being a 'hard worker' may have been able to provide things to you that you never knew about at the time (or may never know about).
- esoterica 8y ago
  > I'd like to get rid of most salaried positions and get people paid by the hour. I think having someone counting the number of hours you have your butt in a seat is a particularly degrading form of micromanagement, and I'm glad I don't have to endure it. Your TC is the only number that matters; there's no financial difference between getting paid 300k and no overtime and getting paid 200k + 100k overtime. It's silly to claim that the one is exploitative and the other is not just because the former involves "unpaid overtime".
  - patient_zero 8y ago
    well, I can't speak directly to your situation, but my comment is mostly hinging on my belief that all the mandatory meetings and 'just one more thing' emails we currently deal with would suddenly be less frequent if management had to be mindful of their time and cost.
    - marmaduke 8y ago
      I have worked for the same employer as both hourly consultant and salaried employee. I saw much more restraint on their part when hours were being counted. On the other hand I am now able to push salary aspect in my favor (ie rely on same salary even if I have to take time off for child’s illness, for example)
  - Negitivefrags 8y ago
    We pay all our developers by the hour, and I think it's super important. To correct your first misconception, we don't count peoples hours, people just tell us how many hours they worked each pay cycle. We also pay 1.5X per hour for more than 40 hours per week if we asked you to work extra. The primary advantage is that it aligns everyone incentives. In management I know that there is a very real cost to us if we ask people to work more hours. It's important that we feel the sting, because it means that we are less likely ask people to work overtime, and only when it's really important. It also lets people work more or less as they choose. Some people might choose to work 30 hour weeks for a while, and it doesn't cause resentment in other team members. People know they are getting paid less for doing it.
- blablabla123 8y ago
  I think employees also need to start taking care of themselves by not following up on every single spontaneous request and also to find something else in time when things turn too toxic. At least for me I can say that I don't follow up on every single request I get, especially when it's many little ones after "the heavy lifting" is done. Management must also learn that this is not bearable. Of course one needs to be in a somehow comfortable position and one probably needs a few years of work in the field. Still, for employers it's also a risk to find good (replacement) employees which I have never heard management would admit but seen after leaving positions.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    This is it. When employees realize that only they can control what they respond to and what they do not, outside of direct requests from management, then they can manage their time for the life they want. Until then, people stuck thinking they can offload time management to their managers will keep wondering why they’re feeling overworked.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    This is doable when you have rock-solid confidence that you will never be let go (or you have fuck you money). Otherwise, there's always gonna be another chump in their 20's who thinks they're just putting in their dues before being able to dial it back a bit, and you're competing with them.
    - blablabla123 8y ago
      At least for me it's not about being protected from getting fired or having a giant pile of money. It's more the knowledge that I can find something, worst case within a week because even today everybody is searching devs like crazy. Of course one needs also enough money above credit limit for going at least a month without income.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  This times 1000 - it's amazing how often my colleagues talk about how they worked on something over the weekend or just take it for granted that I want to keep chatting about their crap after 6 PM. Or bosses who say "can you deploy that?" when it's 5:30
- grecy 8y ago
  > the list never includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. Having just spent years outside the developed world and "working", I realize now that it is very much a spoken rule that "Thou shalt contribute to the economy". > I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood That's a strange statement to make - it's like you are agreeing with the unspoken rule! Working less absolutely doesn't take a chance with your livelihood. Step down to 4 days a week and drive a use car, don't have a TV and don't buy a new cell phone. At the end of the month you'll still have exactly the same money. Step down to three days a week and just live in a smaller place and cut out more things - you'll still have exactly the same money. There are no chances being taken there, just choices.
  - sgt101 8y ago
    I think that there is a chance with job security - if you step down you leave the "core group". On the other hand I've seen a lot of people panic about being let go and then realise that actually they have the savings and set up to let them come - abet at a lower "standard" of living than before (no new BMW's, no new 75" TV's, etc). There are limits on this though - especially for folks with kids or dependent relatives. Some people are flogging themselves and living in fear to make other people's end's meet, so to speak.
- zaptheimpaler 8y ago
  As far as I can tell, media never says the bald truth that everyone knows in the back of their heads - We live in an extremely competitive world where we must fight for our livelihoods. The majority of non-white-collar jobs are worse than whatever crap we have to put up with in the good jobs - they get treated worse, paid less, and have less prospects to escape their situation. So every high-paying becomes increasingly competitive, and you cannot realistically spend too little time working or push back too much because you will be replaced. Employers have always been tyrannical to the greatest degree they can get away with, and they will always do so. They don't care, they will squeeze everything they can out of you. Only reason some programmers have it good for now is extremely short supply, and thats quickly changing as more people rush into the field. That entire structure makes things very convenient for the rich people at the top. As long as there are enough people stuck in dead-end situations, they can simply pay a little better and have a supply of people willing to do anything - program weapons or junk ads, work 80 hours/week whatever. Its a question of power plain & simple and its frankly ridiculous how many hoops people collectively jump through to avoid facing that fact.
- Tempest1981 8y ago
  Even worse than requiring email responses: heavy use of text messages outside of "normal" hours.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  Man I used to have jobs where I'd come in at 10:30 and leave by two, and I mean in a normal company that 'expected' 9 to 5. I've never owned or used an alarm clock. I did however manage to save the project on more than one occasion.¹ When people complain I tell them I'm an ability guy, not an availability guy. If they don't like that then I move on. ¹ One time I hacked a buggy compiler we received from IBM that was preventing us from presenting a demo at a trade show. I did it in 8 hours and we made the trade show in time.
jdorfman 8y ago
It's real. In 2014 I was on medical leave off and on for 9 months from burnout and severe depression. No one has super powers. Take care of yourself.
graeme 8y ago
Pretty sure I burned myself out three years ago, while launching a big thing for my business. Basically, I ran a live course, and it happened right after some travel that had already been scheduled, so I had no downtime. It was all rush, rush, rush for 2-3 months straight. This basically set me up for the next several years in business, and I'm glad I did it, but ooof was the penalty high. This makes me think 1. Good heavens, most people burning out don't even get this upside, and 2. If I had just structured things somewhat differently or canceled the travel, I probably could have gotten the benefit while avoiding years of fatigue Watch out, because it's hard to know what will break you until it does break you. And what breaks quickly takes longer to fix. I generally try to cultivate a high degree of slack in everything that I do: I ignored it once, and paid for it. Symptoms were: * Messed up sleep * a sort of "deadening" where I felt less joy in regular things * A constant sense of being overwhelmed * Worsened digestive troubles * Less ability to tolerate caffeine (I ended up quitting it) * More muscle tension * Lack of focus, tendency towards distraction * More short term thinking And other stuff I can't remember now. It's basically all fixed, and I feel great. One quibble with the article: "Burnout is caused by chronic stress, not stressors, the Nagoskis say in their book. It’s important to differentiate the two. Stressors are external: to-do lists, financial problems or anxiety about the future. Stress, on the other hand, “is the neurological and physiological shift that happens in your body when you encounter [stressors],” the Nagoskis write. To fix burnout, people need to address the stress itself. They must allow their body to complete its stress response cycle. Instead, people tend to focus on stressors. “They assume their stress will go away if they’re on top of things, if they’re accomplishing things and constantly checking things off their to-do list,” Emily Nagoski says." --> I found that removing stressors by addressing them and getting rid of the source of the stressor was extremely helpful. But not in a "do the whole todo list" sense. Rather, thinking about what leads to repeat stressors in my life, and eliminating that. Could be as simple as decluttering the house, improving sleep, changing cooking habits, etc. Anything in the daily routine that eliminates a pressure and lets your system cope better with the remaining stressors. Also a big part of it was working less.
- taurath 8y ago
  Find what you dread, and what you avoid. If it’s your job change your job - if it’s your home life, change your home life.
RandomInteger4 8y ago
I've been experiencing a type of burnout for the past 7 years that is mostly mental in nature. I get plenty of exercise and while my sleep schedule is abnormal, I still get normal amounts of sleep. Where the burnout comes in is when I get back the motivation to learn and program, and everything is going good, but then I start talking to recruiters and applying to jobs, and the farthest I get is the phone interview. I haven't been able to land a technical interview for the past 5 years about. Then it turns into a feedback loop, where my lack of motivation comes back, I let my skills wane, and then I just burnout for a few months. Each time I try to get back at it, the wall to climb seems higher; like I seriously struggle to just sit down and read an article about this or that topic. It's also difficult to know where to jump back in to brush up on my skills. My ability to think programmatically is still solid, but I forget things like the specifics of setting up webpack or whatever. shrug oh well. I think I've been getting that motivational tingle back, so maybe this time will be successful? In the mean time I just want to be hired for anything; not even getting calls back from minimum wage job applications.
- lixtra 8y ago
  Did you try doing charity work in your community? It gives your day some structure and it might connect you to people that are willing to employ you.
- Emma_Goldman 8y ago
  Sounds difficult. Have you ever asked for feedback? Good luck.
- ironix 8y ago
  Try playing a longer game. Pick your favorite tech and join a local group for it, and meet every time they do. Instead of the discomfort of the phone interview, you'll need to tackle the discomfort of connecting with others -- but just realize everyone's human like you, and ultimately wants to connect just as much as you do. Learn about them, look for common ground. Let them get to know you. Don't connect with a certain person? That's expected -- keep trying. Come up with a notable side-project next time you are inspired -- but make sure it won't take longer than 1-2wks of effort. It can be a gimmick, so long as it is somewhat notable. A trivial CRUD app, but applied to a novel/fun/interesting domain. You could even look for non-profits needing a tech solution. You want to appeal to someone hiring for a jr position, and who wants to see initiative. Good consultants -- and even FTE career-oriented devs -- tend to have their work lined up via their network. A network is as simple as casually keeping in contact with old coworkers and then pinging them when you're looking for a new opportunity. In your case, it would just be connecting with other tech folk. Open your surface area to opportunity. This is how you end up knowing about job positions not even posted yet, and end up with inside knowledge on tech that can get you into a job much easier. Look at 1099 contracting. It's low-risk to the employer because you're easier to drop if it doesn't work out. It pays a bit better for you, in return for that risk. If you're out and looking, you can find opportunities to contract that will never be posted to job boards, because a lead engineer just wants to bring someone on quickly. The biggest risk to people pulling 1099 contractors is that contractor ghosting on them, especially when they work remote -- make one of your big selling points be communication. This strategy -- networking -- is one that is critical to pick up not just for landing a jr/intermediate job, but for keeping career longevity in an ageism-tinted industry. It'll be a pain in the ass, but surely better than taking minimum-wage. I think networking-motivated individuals who are still early on the dev journey can do very well.
kartan 8y ago
> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as cities have grown, does not allow people to have time to attend their families, their own finances and have time to relax. When it comes to human management in companies we are closer to the middle ages than to the current knowledge about human nature.
- losteric 8y ago
  It's called human resources for a reason - maximize short-term profit while minimizing legal exposure... the same respect we give any other resources. The 40-hour work week was seen as a step towards ever shorter workdays and weeks thanks to technology. I realize many people now work longer hours, but that should be seen as a problem instead of a fact of life.
- escapecharacter 8y ago
  Crazy idea: what if management was a licensed, regulated career, like traditional engineering, or being a nurse. Like if you have more than 5 "direct reports", you need to get a certification?
  - besulzbach 8y ago
    I think it is mostly an issue caused by how managers are evaluated. Do the teams you supervise outperform (in a short-term metric set) the other teams? If so, you are deemed a good manager. Upper management usually does not seem to care whether the people you manage leave the company eventually or try to change teams to get away from you.
  - Negitivefrags 8y ago
    Are you suggesting that people with management training generally have happier workers? I would be interested to know if that is actually the case.
neonate 8y ago
https://outline.com/cHyZVa https://outline.com/cHyZVa
lalalandland 8y ago
I have found what works best for me to recover from chronic stress is light training, like walking, and mindfulness meditation, specially body scan.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  That seems to work very well, for some, until it doesn't.
cracauer 8y ago
It's not just companies driving to more productivity. For example, those open office layout are about putting more people per square foot. No matter what they say otherwise. Nobody "communicates" in an open office layout and they know it. This is an example where per-employee productivity is sacrificed for other goals (getting more people into one building). And it is directly affecting stress and burnout.
- prestonh 8y ago
  Huh? People communicate about work all the time in my office and having the ability to initiate conversations fluidly means more efficient collaboration. Fewer meetings, and easier to keep all parties in the know.
  - mamon 8y ago
    There is such thing as too much communication. In my previous company the whole 10 person team sat together on the open space. The result was that my coworkers (sitting 30-40 ft from me) would shout a question to me, because they were too lazy to check project Wiki page to know which environment they should deploy to, for example. Or they would shout totaly useless notifications, like "I've just created pull request, can you review it?". Open plan offices encourage this type of pathological behaviour.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    Having that ability is also disastrous to productivity. People realise this and resort to wearing headphones as deterrent to being interrupted. It means that certain people work in constant fear of being dragged out of their flow at any moment. This is why universities have strict office hours. There are types of work that just can't be done with random interruptions.
gist 8y ago
Another thinly sourced article with the intention of plugging a book (nice PR work to the firm behind that).
purplezooey 8y ago
Many of the same people that talk about burnout will then vote up the same political party that prefers that you work yourself to the grave and not tax their inheritance.
manmal 8y ago
Chronic stress sets you up for so many diseases, where burnout is just an early warning sign in comparison. Cancer, heart disease, stroke - you name it, chances are way higher that you get it if you are under chronic stress. Being a freelancer with 2 little kids, I‘ve had my fair share of stress (and burnout), but I‘m doing quite well nowadays. So, here‘s my personal anti-stress toolbox, from most effective to least effective: - Stoic philosophy. Accept that you have control over nothing (only the chance to influence) and eventually that feeling that you carry the world on your shoulders will disappear. - Stoic philosophy (just to reiterate how important it is) - Near infrared radiation - improves mitochondrial function and releases NO (a radical caused by cell stress) from the mitochondria. There are plenty of options, i have a device from redlightman. - CBD - I vape it regularly. It’s legal where I live, but it’s illegal in some countries and US states. It believe it had a tremendous effect on me, even increased sociability. - Blue light blocking glasses - Staring at my laptop screen for longer periods stresses me out, and using f.lux all day improves this a lot. But using the blue blockers is something different entirely. Sometimes I put on the glasses in the early afternoon and am more focused and relaxed as a result. Sleep also got much better, sometimes I fall asleep while coding in the evening. Take care to use the really yellow/orange ones, as the only-slightly-tinged ones don’t filter heavily enough. - Sort out family problems, ASAP. Don’t feel stuck - if you do, just do _something_, even if it’s dumb. Feeling stuck kills you. You need to feel accepted by the people you are close to. You need someone you tell your (supposedly) darkest secrets without them condemning you. - Find a job or position where your „boss“ values you and your work. For me as a freelancer this means I only work with clients for whom the project is important, or even vital (not just a cost-factor).
- _puk 8y ago
  "Stoic philosophy. Accept that you have control over nothing (only the chance to influence)" You have control over your reaction to things. And I think this is a key component of Stoicism, especially in the modern working world. If you are acting (and reacting) true to yourself, then it is other's reactions to your actions that are failing. This goes a long way to reducing the amount of stress felt. Thanks for the insights.
  - 8y ago
randomacct3847 8y ago
Burnout for me wasn’t about too many hours. It was more that, especially in the SF tech scene, as an employee you’re expected to drink the Koolaid and not only do your job but be 100% emotionally invested in your company too. The expectation of emotional attachment is, at least for me, what makes working in that kind of environment overwhelming, and recently decided for myself that it isn’t sustainable after 4-5 years in it.
- reasonablemann 8y ago
  The forced emotional attachment is a way of manipulating you into a lower salary.
org3432 8y ago
What exhausts me is the people, the politics, the engineering egos, and the endless tolerance of companies to spend months of time working through previously obviously poor decisions and no tolerance for fixing the attitudes that created them. You’re called perfectionist engineer, regardless of how little effort or time it takes to correct the long term trajectory for your project. There’s little connection to clear organized thinking and the enjoyment of the work, it’s like everyone has gone mad and can’t see the obvious right in front of their face at times.
- scruple 8y ago
  Do we work for the same company? It's _infuriating_ to watch the same people make the same mistakes time and time again. Where is the accountability? Where has the integrity gone? Was it all a lie? What exactly is the _point_ of this charade?
  - ravenstine 8y ago
    It's indeed a charade. Maybe it wasn't in the beginning, but it inevitably becomes a charade once a company reaches a certain age and size. What happens is that, once a company is reliably making money for everyone, the need to "innovate" and make things more "efficient" is dramatically reduced. At the end of the day, most people want to just show up to the office, do what they're told(what they don't actually want to do), and then go back to their lives with their money. If some young engineer shows up with ideas about making things "more efficient", that can only mean people's daily routines get disrupted or they are made obsolete. Nobody really wants to make things better, including those who are running the business since their joy is in being in charge of lots of people(whether they're well-meaning or not). Accountability and integrity gets thrown out the window because, in order to maintain them, someone has to get mad at someone else, and these days people aren't interested in being the person who has to scold people or let them go. As much as I care about my craft as a software engineer, I realize that every company suffers from this syndrome to some extent, and the most healthy thing to do is to accept that people don't want you fucking with their cash cow. I don't take seriously claims companies make when the talk about "excellence" and "innovation", because once they've got more than 10 employees and their growth pattern has a definite upward trend, those values really go out the window. And you know something? There's nothing wrong with that. Most people aren't working because they want to. Think you can make things better? Go start your own company.
Gnarl 8y ago
Pssst... Its the WiFi https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.1043557 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.10...
stuaxo 8y ago
Should we stop calling it burnout and just say depression ?
- sorryforthethro 8y ago
  If it's work-induced I think a separate label helps the discussion.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  Symptoms vs. etiology.
- Adamantcheese 8y ago
  I've seen the term "moral injury" be used, which I think is a better description of what usually happens.
- bsenftner 8y ago
  The bully capitalism, squeezing every last drop of of a "human resource".
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > Should we stop calling it burnout and just say depression ? No, burnout is a completely different thing from depression. While the two can often overlap, they are not the same. See: https://www.mind-body-health.net/index.shtml https://www.mind-body-health.net/index.shtml
naveen99 8y ago
if some people weren’t burning out, the bean counters would continue squeezing everyone more and the people currently not burning out would start feeling pain also. Some burnout keeps the balance... it’s like if you always succeed, you aren’t achieving your potential.
scottlocklin 8y ago
I remember sitting in rapture listening to a retired Chevron executive describing the way white collar work used to be. You basically got hired at a megacorp for life. If things didn't work out after the first couple of years, you were gently taken aside, given nothing new to do, and given a salary and an office for an entire year to find a new position. I was flabbergasted. Only professors with tenure or certain government workers have this kind of job stability, but the entire upper middle class had it at one point. Sure, none of them won .com lotto; they arguably had much better lives on average. My dad was working class and in the union -he had a different kind of stability.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  I talked to a Chevron Exec while stuck on a ski lift 30 years ago. Back then if they canceled or finished a project they just redeployed the workers to other projects. Vastly different than the current system where they just lay everyone off at the end. If things weren't working out bosses would just transfer employees to a role better suited to them. You'll get arguments this is more efficient cause free markets blah blah. However I know one semiconductor company in the valley that bucked that trend. Everyone went home at 5-6pm. Didn't work weekends. They just moved people around instead of firing them. And they totally crushed their competition over 20 years.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    100% agree with you. The modern organization is so short term focused and so dedicated to purging that they do not develop leadership and cannot handle failure. The cult of metrics breeds dumb. A big company is more like a Soviet enterprise than a functional business.
    - pm90 8y ago
      I am very interested to know what you mean by the cult of metrics?
      - sgt101 8y ago
Iamhisalt 8y ago
It’s okay to just say No to your employer and walk. Burnout is real. I got burned out at my last gig 2 years ago and I am still recovering from it mentally and physically - fighting depression and my new autoimmune disease. There’s no reason you should die for a job.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
2sk21 8y ago
I'm reminded of this great quote from "Soul of a new machine": He went away from the basement of Building 14 that day, and left this note in his cubicle, on top of his computer terminal: "I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season."
bsenftner 8y ago
I have an entire adult life that has been one burnout after another, continually driven by unrealistic expectations by immature management. As early as '83 being a dumb teen burned out by Apple being an unpaid beta tester for the Mac. Working on the original Fractals team with Mandelbrot and Devanny, I ended up in the hospital from the demands. Then again working at Philips developing video CDs, again at 3D0/EA making their failed console's OS, again at Sony making the PSX OS, again at EA develping during the EA Spouse era, again during the dotcom era developing early IP streaming video, again working in feature film VFX, again at my own startup, and yet still now working facial recognition. Technology kinda sucks, as if you're good they take advantage and bully your good will, mentally manipulating one. I am yet to see any organization without this disease.
TomMckenny 8y ago
There is no way to reduce workload and still generate enough income for the employer and revenue for the employee given current urban land valuations. And more generally, raise inequality and one group will have increased stress while the other has reduced stress. That is the point of wealth.
a_random_name 8y ago
I wonder if unionization could be a solution here.
- bsenftner 8y ago
  It would have to be global.
zxcvvcxz 8y ago
Oh no, terrible companies and terrible managers lacking emotional maturity and squeezing profits out of all us noble employees causing chronic stress and burnout! If you don't like it, why don't you just leave? Why don't you try starting your own companies with "emotional maturity" as a founding principle or whatever? "Oh no the system was already set up like this and I was born into it!" Then blame your parents and your ancestors, and then blame yourself for being no better than them in your ability to effect change. Complain all you want, but we humans live in a competitive dynamic with one another, because man wants money and status, in order to successfully pass on his genes. And the women just keep getting choosier, especially in developed countries where they are financially independent. So you better keep working harder and harder.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fogetti 8y ago
  Or why don't you just keep your lack of empathy to yourself? Did you get offended by an article about people who have problems which have zero impact on your life? Maybe you should take a hard look into yourself first before you comment here why you have such a low level of endurance reading about other people's woes.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > So you better keep working harder and harder. You go ahead and do that, I'm going surfing later today. Kthxbye!
EGreg 8y ago
And what’s more, our society is unwittingly taking the side of corporations and try to push more of it on another 50% of the population, which is already overworked: http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286
jammygit 8y ago
This topic is important, but this article is weak. They cite a statement about doctor burnout, and a single study about employer statements about the topic. Most of the content is anecdotal, and in that sense they're just going for an 'I hear you' reaction instead of adding anything to the discussion. Disappointing imo.
jammygit 8y ago
If one was a founder who wanted to have their startup succeed without crushing your teams mental/physical health, how would you do it? I understand the founder accepting it as a cost themselves, but when the company's existence depends on speed, how do you balance the push with survival? Are there any good case studies?
- Falkon1313 8y ago
  - It's understandable that you're super-excited and willing to work 18-hour days to make your business a success. Probably not healthy, but understandable, because it's your baby. Don't expect that from others, because it's not their baby. They have their own babies (and hobby projects, friendships, etc.) that need their attention. - Consider an employee with 4 kids in different schools, each with different after-school activities, a spouse who also works, and an ailing parent/grandparent who needs care and won't be around much longer. Try to target your expectations for workload and time available to be appropriate for that hypothetical employee, in such a way that they can still live their life and care for their family while also being an effective and valuable employee. - If you're in software, plan for zero-downtime deployments from day one. Architect and develop for it from the beginning. Don't ask your employees to stay up all night doing deployments and maintenance during a 'quiet time' window in the middle of the night. It's not hard to do daytime deployments without taking the system offline if it's designed for it from the start, but it can be a major challenge to retrofit that ability. - Continually reassess your deadlines and priorities. If your deadlines are actually hard due to external factors, consider what can reasonably be cut to make the deadline. If they're soft, consider focusing more on priorities of what is most important rather than deadline dates. Seek to relieve pressure rather than creating it, by focusing on what's most important.
fastbeef 8y ago
I took a different approach to this - I started my own company a offer contracting services. I tell my clients "I work 40 hours a week, including communting. If you want ass-in-seat, that's ~30h/week. Want more? Let me work from home." (I tell them this in my most sale-sy, honey-dripping voice). None have objected. I now work on average 6 hours per day, 30 minute lunch, 2x40min train+walk commute where I space out with music or podcasts. I make more money, am happier and in better shape then ever. Can highly recommend.
titzer 8y ago
What I find absolute f'in sucks is living/working in Europe and interacting with Silicon Valley. The time difference between CET and PST is 9 hours. That means the European workday is essentially over when SV starts waking up and piling on the emails, bugs, requests, meetings, etc. So you either end up staying an extra hour or two to do meetings/chats and handle issues, or go home and check email periodically in the evening. Worst when there's a fire alarm and shit hits the fan at 9pm... Even if you do manage to disconnect, there's wreckage leftover for you to pick up the next morning. Have that happen about once a month and you'll be a frazelled mess, knowing every evening something could go horribly wrong. Just say no to timeshift!
p0nce 8y ago
There is a well-known burnout measurement test from Christina Maslach, who gave an interesting overview of job burnout in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRPBkCW0R5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRPBkCW0R5E
ImaCake 8y ago
I cannot overstate how useful an emergency fund is in the event of serious burnout. Being able to quit your job and escape from that one huge stressor can be incredibly useful for recovery.
gerbilly 8y ago
If you don't like job burnout, then: 1) Take on as little debt as you can. This means you'll have more control over what job situations you will be forced to tolerate. Don't fall into the trap of 'rewarding' yourself for your hard work with expensive vacations, cars toys, whatever. Debt is slavery. 2) Leave your work phone in a drawer at work on Friday night, or turn it off. If they bug you about it, tell everyone you went on a camping trip, or went on a multi-pitch rockclimbing expedition or whatever. Keep your work stuff off your personal phone too. If you have the kind of job where you are truly expected to be available all the time, start looking for another one. It's not worth your life. And if you're wondering why the boss doesn't seem to burnout even though he's always there and works weekends, it's be cause he has control over his work hours. If you don't, then look for a way to either change that or get out. These kind of work conditions can seem innocent enough, but if you keep that up for six months or a year and you are likely to burnout.

328 points by howard941 8y ago

What I find sad about this (and other articles like this) is when the time comes within the article to lay out how to avoid burnout and stress, the list nevver includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood but I really hope that we can at least stop blaming ourselves for the ridiculous work/life ratio we currently must shoulder to live. Off the top of my head, there should be a moratorium on requiring email responses for non-essentials outside of office hours. I'd like to get rid of most salaried positions and get people paid by the hour. I've a sneaking suspicion that all the crazy hours that are currently "required by the times" would miraculously evaporate once employers were charged for the time they demand of their people.

alkonaut 8y ago
I consider myself “paid by the hour” even if I’m not formally paid by the hour. I log my time and have a bank of hours that can’t go outside +/-20 hours. If I did 41 hours last week I’ll do 39 next week. I’ll never take a position where I do more than 40h on average. There is no amount of money that will be compensation enough for regular 45h weeks.
- esoterica 8y ago
  That's a pretty silly line to draw in the sand. No amount of compensation to work 45 hours, really? Even if someone offered you enough money to retire 20 years early, you'd rather spend an extra 20 years doing the 9-5 just to avoid spending 1 extra hour a day at work? If you made enough money you could easily save 10+ hours a week by moving closer to work, paying people to run errands for you etc. You could easily have more free time working 50 hours a week than someone with less money would working 40.
  - alkonaut 8y ago
    Anything has a price of course, but realistically there is no position that would let me retire earlier (nor do I want to). My 40h is also already 100% remote, so very hard to improve on in terms of commutes etc. In fact, if I were to switch to non-remote I’d never accept a 40h ass-in-seat position either.
    - esoterica 8y ago
      Even a 20% pay raise would let you retire several years earlier, assuming you don't spend any of the extra pay.
      - alkonaut 8y ago
        A 20% pay rise is 10% after taxes here and wouldn’t make a huge difference. Also, I hope and intend to work well into my 70s. For that I need to not burn out in my 40s. I’m happy with what I do. I don’t need more money or more years retired. I need a job I’m happy with, money for bills and time with my family now. I pick up kids from school every day at 4 and make them dinner at 5. All this must sound pretty foreign to Americans...
        airbreather 8y ago
        Aussie?
        alkonaut 8y ago
        Close. Swede
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        paganel 8y ago
        > Also, I hope and intend to work well into my 70s. For that I need to not burn out in my 40s. Glad I’m not the only one having this exact line of thought about my future career. If it matters I live in Eastern Europe and I’m approaching 40.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  Yup, exactly. Excluding those that are very low on the income scale, for whom everyone agrees life is difficult, I simply don't understand the claims of inescapable demands on skilled white-collar workers' time. If you're making any sort of non-negligible surplus above the basics, then you're at some level making a conscious choice of that surplus (usually for consumption) over a lower-stress job. I have a friend who's a quant at Goldman Sachs, whose work life is miserable but who makes a good 150k more than me. His labor isn't (currently) valued at more than mine: I could get a similar TC with little effort and a much _better_ working environment, but I have absolutely no interest: I'm consciously trading off compensation consumption for a better work-life balance. The flipside is that he's consciously trading off quality of life for more compensation, for whatever his personal reasons are. It's bizarre to me to claim that it's a bad thing that that choice is presented to him (or to me for that matter). I get that this sounds like a general-purpose argument against worker protections, but there's a key difference: in the absence of a robust, UBI-like safety net, we as a society have accepted that coercion can include nominally consensual actions taken to avoid bumping up against a lack of whatever we've defined as the basic necessities that everyone is entitled to (food, shelter, etc). But the work burnout problem is, statistically, almost entirely a middle- and upper-class problem[1], and these are precisely the people who have the comp surplus to consciously choose to trade off compensation for a better quality of life. I know as always the dimmer readers of comments like this will pattern-match this to the victim-blaming buzzword, but you can simultaneously bemoan the state of a culture and work to improve your lot within it. In this case, there's a fairly simple, concrete solution: perform worse at your current job by putting in less hours or get a job that isn't so rigid as to require a number of hours above what you find to be your healthy level. [1] the job-related woes of lower income people tend to involve not being able to get enough employment and thus enough income to live off of
  - mratzloff 8y ago
    > perform worse at your current job by putting in less hours Citation needed. Edit: So self-evident is this equation to some people that they down vote the mere suggestion that working longer hours does not make you better at your job.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  Hopefully you didn't learn this from doing overtime, paid or voluntary? I had to learn the hard way, in part because my dad is naturally a hard worker, so I think I took after him. Eventually I figured out that working more hours virtually never pays off, and it's stupid anyway because even if you're getting paid you're still trading even more of your life away.
  - mgkimsal 8y ago
    > and it's stupid anyway because even if you're getting paid you're still trading even more of your life away. when you 'trade' you get something of value in return. if you're getting paid and you think it's a fair pay, it's not automatically 'stupid'. saving more now to pay for future expenses, nest egg, rainy day fund, whatever? how can that be 'stupid'? You have an opportunity to provide the means for a more secure future for your family, today, when that ability may be in doubt - take the pay now for more work. your dad being a 'hard worker' may have been able to provide things to you that you never knew about at the time (or may never know about).
esoterica 8y ago
> I'd like to get rid of most salaried positions and get people paid by the hour. I think having someone counting the number of hours you have your butt in a seat is a particularly degrading form of micromanagement, and I'm glad I don't have to endure it. Your TC is the only number that matters; there's no financial difference between getting paid 300k and no overtime and getting paid 200k + 100k overtime. It's silly to claim that the one is exploitative and the other is not just because the former involves "unpaid overtime".
- patient_zero 8y ago
  well, I can't speak directly to your situation, but my comment is mostly hinging on my belief that all the mandatory meetings and 'just one more thing' emails we currently deal with would suddenly be less frequent if management had to be mindful of their time and cost.
  - marmaduke 8y ago
    I have worked for the same employer as both hourly consultant and salaried employee. I saw much more restraint on their part when hours were being counted. On the other hand I am now able to push salary aspect in my favor (ie rely on same salary even if I have to take time off for child’s illness, for example)
- Negitivefrags 8y ago
  We pay all our developers by the hour, and I think it's super important. To correct your first misconception, we don't count peoples hours, people just tell us how many hours they worked each pay cycle. We also pay 1.5X per hour for more than 40 hours per week if we asked you to work extra. The primary advantage is that it aligns everyone incentives. In management I know that there is a very real cost to us if we ask people to work more hours. It's important that we feel the sting, because it means that we are less likely ask people to work overtime, and only when it's really important. It also lets people work more or less as they choose. Some people might choose to work 30 hour weeks for a while, and it doesn't cause resentment in other team members. People know they are getting paid less for doing it.
blablabla123 8y ago
I think employees also need to start taking care of themselves by not following up on every single spontaneous request and also to find something else in time when things turn too toxic. At least for me I can say that I don't follow up on every single request I get, especially when it's many little ones after "the heavy lifting" is done. Management must also learn that this is not bearable. Of course one needs to be in a somehow comfortable position and one probably needs a few years of work in the field. Still, for employers it's also a risk to find good (replacement) employees which I have never heard management would admit but seen after leaving positions.
- bdamm 8y ago
  This is it. When employees realize that only they can control what they respond to and what they do not, outside of direct requests from management, then they can manage their time for the life they want. Until then, people stuck thinking they can offload time management to their managers will keep wondering why they’re feeling overworked.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  This is doable when you have rock-solid confidence that you will never be let go (or you have fuck you money). Otherwise, there's always gonna be another chump in their 20's who thinks they're just putting in their dues before being able to dial it back a bit, and you're competing with them.
  - blablabla123 8y ago
    At least for me it's not about being protected from getting fired or having a giant pile of money. It's more the knowledge that I can find something, worst case within a week because even today everybody is searching devs like crazy. Of course one needs also enough money above credit limit for going at least a month without income.
CalRobert 8y ago
This times 1000 - it's amazing how often my colleagues talk about how they worked on something over the weekend or just take it for granted that I want to keep chatting about their crap after 6 PM. Or bosses who say "can you deploy that?" when it's 5:30
grecy 8y ago
> the list never includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. Having just spent years outside the developed world and "working", I realize now that it is very much a spoken rule that "Thou shalt contribute to the economy". > I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood That's a strange statement to make - it's like you are agreeing with the unspoken rule! Working less absolutely doesn't take a chance with your livelihood. Step down to 4 days a week and drive a use car, don't have a TV and don't buy a new cell phone. At the end of the month you'll still have exactly the same money. Step down to three days a week and just live in a smaller place and cut out more things - you'll still have exactly the same money. There are no chances being taken there, just choices.
- sgt101 8y ago
  I think that there is a chance with job security - if you step down you leave the "core group". On the other hand I've seen a lot of people panic about being let go and then realise that actually they have the savings and set up to let them come - abet at a lower "standard" of living than before (no new BMW's, no new 75" TV's, etc). There are limits on this though - especially for folks with kids or dependent relatives. Some people are flogging themselves and living in fear to make other people's end's meet, so to speak.
zaptheimpaler 8y ago
As far as I can tell, media never says the bald truth that everyone knows in the back of their heads - We live in an extremely competitive world where we must fight for our livelihoods. The majority of non-white-collar jobs are worse than whatever crap we have to put up with in the good jobs - they get treated worse, paid less, and have less prospects to escape their situation. So every high-paying becomes increasingly competitive, and you cannot realistically spend too little time working or push back too much because you will be replaced. Employers have always been tyrannical to the greatest degree they can get away with, and they will always do so. They don't care, they will squeeze everything they can out of you. Only reason some programmers have it good for now is extremely short supply, and thats quickly changing as more people rush into the field. That entire structure makes things very convenient for the rich people at the top. As long as there are enough people stuck in dead-end situations, they can simply pay a little better and have a supply of people willing to do anything - program weapons or junk ads, work 80 hours/week whatever. Its a question of power plain & simple and its frankly ridiculous how many hoops people collectively jump through to avoid facing that fact.
Tempest1981 8y ago
Even worse than requiring email responses: heavy use of text messages outside of "normal" hours.
gerbilly 8y ago
Man I used to have jobs where I'd come in at 10:30 and leave by two, and I mean in a normal company that 'expected' 9 to 5. I've never owned or used an alarm clock. I did however manage to save the project on more than one occasion.¹ When people complain I tell them I'm an ability guy, not an availability guy. If they don't like that then I move on. ¹ One time I hacked a buggy compiler we received from IBM that was preventing us from presenting a demo at a trade show. I did it in 8 hours and we made the trade show in time.

jdorfman 8y ago

It's real. In 2014 I was on medical leave off and on for 9 months from burnout and severe depression. No one has super powers. Take care of yourself.

graeme 8y ago

Pretty sure I burned myself out three years ago, while launching a big thing for my business. Basically, I ran a live course, and it happened right after some travel that had already been scheduled, so I had no downtime. It was all rush, rush, rush for 2-3 months straight. This basically set me up for the next several years in business, and I'm glad I did it, but ooof was the penalty high. This makes me think 1. Good heavens, most people burning out don't even get this upside, and 2. If I had just structured things somewhat differently or canceled the travel, I probably could have gotten the benefit while avoiding years of fatigue Watch out, because it's hard to know what will break you until it does break you. And what breaks quickly takes longer to fix. I generally try to cultivate a high degree of slack in everything that I do: I ignored it once, and paid for it. Symptoms were: * Messed up sleep * a sort of "deadening" where I felt less joy in regular things * A constant sense of being overwhelmed * Worsened digestive troubles * Less ability to tolerate caffeine (I ended up quitting it) * More muscle tension * Lack of focus, tendency towards distraction * More short term thinking And other stuff I can't remember now. It's basically all fixed, and I feel great. One quibble with the article: "Burnout is caused by chronic stress, not stressors, the Nagoskis say in their book. It’s important to differentiate the two. Stressors are external: to-do lists, financial problems or anxiety about the future. Stress, on the other hand, “is the neurological and physiological shift that happens in your body when you encounter [stressors],” the Nagoskis write. To fix burnout, people need to address the stress itself. They must allow their body to complete its stress response cycle. Instead, people tend to focus on stressors. “They assume their stress will go away if they’re on top of things, if they’re accomplishing things and constantly checking things off their to-do list,” Emily Nagoski says." --> I found that removing stressors by addressing them and getting rid of the source of the stressor was extremely helpful. But not in a "do the whole todo list" sense. Rather, thinking about what leads to repeat stressors in my life, and eliminating that. Could be as simple as decluttering the house, improving sleep, changing cooking habits, etc. Anything in the daily routine that eliminates a pressure and lets your system cope better with the remaining stressors. Also a big part of it was working less.

taurath 8y ago
Find what you dread, and what you avoid. If it’s your job change your job - if it’s your home life, change your home life.

RandomInteger4 8y ago

I've been experiencing a type of burnout for the past 7 years that is mostly mental in nature. I get plenty of exercise and while my sleep schedule is abnormal, I still get normal amounts of sleep. Where the burnout comes in is when I get back the motivation to learn and program, and everything is going good, but then I start talking to recruiters and applying to jobs, and the farthest I get is the phone interview. I haven't been able to land a technical interview for the past 5 years about. Then it turns into a feedback loop, where my lack of motivation comes back, I let my skills wane, and then I just burnout for a few months. Each time I try to get back at it, the wall to climb seems higher; like I seriously struggle to just sit down and read an article about this or that topic. It's also difficult to know where to jump back in to brush up on my skills. My ability to think programmatically is still solid, but I forget things like the specifics of setting up webpack or whatever. shrug oh well. I think I've been getting that motivational tingle back, so maybe this time will be successful? In the mean time I just want to be hired for anything; not even getting calls back from minimum wage job applications.

lixtra 8y ago
Did you try doing charity work in your community? It gives your day some structure and it might connect you to people that are willing to employ you.
Emma_Goldman 8y ago
Sounds difficult. Have you ever asked for feedback? Good luck.
ironix 8y ago
Try playing a longer game. Pick your favorite tech and join a local group for it, and meet every time they do. Instead of the discomfort of the phone interview, you'll need to tackle the discomfort of connecting with others -- but just realize everyone's human like you, and ultimately wants to connect just as much as you do. Learn about them, look for common ground. Let them get to know you. Don't connect with a certain person? That's expected -- keep trying. Come up with a notable side-project next time you are inspired -- but make sure it won't take longer than 1-2wks of effort. It can be a gimmick, so long as it is somewhat notable. A trivial CRUD app, but applied to a novel/fun/interesting domain. You could even look for non-profits needing a tech solution. You want to appeal to someone hiring for a jr position, and who wants to see initiative. Good consultants -- and even FTE career-oriented devs -- tend to have their work lined up via their network. A network is as simple as casually keeping in contact with old coworkers and then pinging them when you're looking for a new opportunity. In your case, it would just be connecting with other tech folk. Open your surface area to opportunity. This is how you end up knowing about job positions not even posted yet, and end up with inside knowledge on tech that can get you into a job much easier. Look at 1099 contracting. It's low-risk to the employer because you're easier to drop if it doesn't work out. It pays a bit better for you, in return for that risk. If you're out and looking, you can find opportunities to contract that will never be posted to job boards, because a lead engineer just wants to bring someone on quickly. The biggest risk to people pulling 1099 contractors is that contractor ghosting on them, especially when they work remote -- make one of your big selling points be communication. This strategy -- networking -- is one that is critical to pick up not just for landing a jr/intermediate job, but for keeping career longevity in an ageism-tinted industry. It'll be a pain in the ass, but surely better than taking minimum-wage. I think networking-motivated individuals who are still early on the dev journey can do very well.

kartan 8y ago

> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as cities have grown, does not allow people to have time to attend their families, their own finances and have time to relax. When it comes to human management in companies we are closer to the middle ages than to the current knowledge about human nature.

losteric 8y ago
It's called human resources for a reason - maximize short-term profit while minimizing legal exposure... the same respect we give any other resources. The 40-hour work week was seen as a step towards ever shorter workdays and weeks thanks to technology. I realize many people now work longer hours, but that should be seen as a problem instead of a fact of life.
escapecharacter 8y ago
Crazy idea: what if management was a licensed, regulated career, like traditional engineering, or being a nurse. Like if you have more than 5 "direct reports", you need to get a certification?
- besulzbach 8y ago
  I think it is mostly an issue caused by how managers are evaluated. Do the teams you supervise outperform (in a short-term metric set) the other teams? If so, you are deemed a good manager. Upper management usually does not seem to care whether the people you manage leave the company eventually or try to change teams to get away from you.
- Negitivefrags 8y ago
  Are you suggesting that people with management training generally have happier workers? I would be interested to know if that is actually the case.

neonate 8y ago

https://outline.com/cHyZVa https://outline.com/cHyZVa

lalalandland 8y ago

I have found what works best for me to recover from chronic stress is light training, like walking, and mindfulness meditation, specially body scan.

dredmorbius 8y ago
That seems to work very well, for some, until it doesn't.

cracauer 8y ago

It's not just companies driving to more productivity. For example, those open office layout are about putting more people per square foot. No matter what they say otherwise. Nobody "communicates" in an open office layout and they know it. This is an example where per-employee productivity is sacrificed for other goals (getting more people into one building). And it is directly affecting stress and burnout.

prestonh 8y ago
Huh? People communicate about work all the time in my office and having the ability to initiate conversations fluidly means more efficient collaboration. Fewer meetings, and easier to keep all parties in the know.
- mamon 8y ago
  There is such thing as too much communication. In my previous company the whole 10 person team sat together on the open space. The result was that my coworkers (sitting 30-40 ft from me) would shout a question to me, because they were too lazy to check project Wiki page to know which environment they should deploy to, for example. Or they would shout totaly useless notifications, like "I've just created pull request, can you review it?". Open plan offices encourage this type of pathological behaviour.
- black-tea 8y ago
  Having that ability is also disastrous to productivity. People realise this and resort to wearing headphones as deterrent to being interrupted. It means that certain people work in constant fear of being dragged out of their flow at any moment. This is why universities have strict office hours. There are types of work that just can't be done with random interruptions.

gist 8y ago

Another thinly sourced article with the intention of plugging a book (nice PR work to the firm behind that).

purplezooey 8y ago

Many of the same people that talk about burnout will then vote up the same political party that prefers that you work yourself to the grave and not tax their inheritance.

manmal 8y ago

Chronic stress sets you up for so many diseases, where burnout is just an early warning sign in comparison. Cancer, heart disease, stroke - you name it, chances are way higher that you get it if you are under chronic stress. Being a freelancer with 2 little kids, I‘ve had my fair share of stress (and burnout), but I‘m doing quite well nowadays. So, here‘s my personal anti-stress toolbox, from most effective to least effective: - Stoic philosophy. Accept that you have control over nothing (only the chance to influence) and eventually that feeling that you carry the world on your shoulders will disappear. - Stoic philosophy (just to reiterate how important it is) - Near infrared radiation - improves mitochondrial function and releases NO (a radical caused by cell stress) from the mitochondria. There are plenty of options, i have a device from redlightman. - CBD - I vape it regularly. It’s legal where I live, but it’s illegal in some countries and US states. It believe it had a tremendous effect on me, even increased sociability. - Blue light blocking glasses - Staring at my laptop screen for longer periods stresses me out, and using f.lux all day improves this a lot. But using the blue blockers is something different entirely. Sometimes I put on the glasses in the early afternoon and am more focused and relaxed as a result. Sleep also got much better, sometimes I fall asleep while coding in the evening. Take care to use the really yellow/orange ones, as the only-slightly-tinged ones don’t filter heavily enough. - Sort out family problems, ASAP. Don’t feel stuck - if you do, just do _something_, even if it’s dumb. Feeling stuck kills you. You need to feel accepted by the people you are close to. You need someone you tell your (supposedly) darkest secrets without them condemning you. - Find a job or position where your „boss“ values you and your work. For me as a freelancer this means I only work with clients for whom the project is important, or even vital (not just a cost-factor).

_puk 8y ago
"Stoic philosophy. Accept that you have control over nothing (only the chance to influence)" You have control over your reaction to things. And I think this is a key component of Stoicism, especially in the modern working world. If you are acting (and reacting) true to yourself, then it is other's reactions to your actions that are failing. This goes a long way to reducing the amount of stress felt. Thanks for the insights.
- 8y ago

randomacct3847 8y ago

Burnout for me wasn’t about too many hours. It was more that, especially in the SF tech scene, as an employee you’re expected to drink the Koolaid and not only do your job but be 100% emotionally invested in your company too. The expectation of emotional attachment is, at least for me, what makes working in that kind of environment overwhelming, and recently decided for myself that it isn’t sustainable after 4-5 years in it.

reasonablemann 8y ago
The forced emotional attachment is a way of manipulating you into a lower salary.

org3432 8y ago

What exhausts me is the people, the politics, the engineering egos, and the endless tolerance of companies to spend months of time working through previously obviously poor decisions and no tolerance for fixing the attitudes that created them. You’re called perfectionist engineer, regardless of how little effort or time it takes to correct the long term trajectory for your project. There’s little connection to clear organized thinking and the enjoyment of the work, it’s like everyone has gone mad and can’t see the obvious right in front of their face at times.

scruple 8y ago
Do we work for the same company? It's _infuriating_ to watch the same people make the same mistakes time and time again. Where is the accountability? Where has the integrity gone? Was it all a lie? What exactly is the _point_ of this charade?
- ravenstine 8y ago
  It's indeed a charade. Maybe it wasn't in the beginning, but it inevitably becomes a charade once a company reaches a certain age and size. What happens is that, once a company is reliably making money for everyone, the need to "innovate" and make things more "efficient" is dramatically reduced. At the end of the day, most people want to just show up to the office, do what they're told(what they don't actually want to do), and then go back to their lives with their money. If some young engineer shows up with ideas about making things "more efficient", that can only mean people's daily routines get disrupted or they are made obsolete. Nobody really wants to make things better, including those who are running the business since their joy is in being in charge of lots of people(whether they're well-meaning or not). Accountability and integrity gets thrown out the window because, in order to maintain them, someone has to get mad at someone else, and these days people aren't interested in being the person who has to scold people or let them go. As much as I care about my craft as a software engineer, I realize that every company suffers from this syndrome to some extent, and the most healthy thing to do is to accept that people don't want you fucking with their cash cow. I don't take seriously claims companies make when the talk about "excellence" and "innovation", because once they've got more than 10 employees and their growth pattern has a definite upward trend, those values really go out the window. And you know something? There's nothing wrong with that. Most people aren't working because they want to. Think you can make things better? Go start your own company.

Gnarl 8y ago

Pssst... Its the WiFi https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.1043557 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.10...

stuaxo 8y ago

Should we stop calling it burnout and just say depression ?

sorryforthethro 8y ago
If it's work-induced I think a separate label helps the discussion.
dredmorbius 8y ago
Symptoms vs. etiology.
Adamantcheese 8y ago
I've seen the term "moral injury" be used, which I think is a better description of what usually happens.
bsenftner 8y ago
The bully capitalism, squeezing every last drop of of a "human resource".
gerbilly 8y ago
> Should we stop calling it burnout and just say depression ? No, burnout is a completely different thing from depression. While the two can often overlap, they are not the same. See: https://www.mind-body-health.net/index.shtml https://www.mind-body-health.net/index.shtml

naveen99 8y ago

if some people weren’t burning out, the bean counters would continue squeezing everyone more and the people currently not burning out would start feeling pain also. Some burnout keeps the balance... it’s like if you always succeed, you aren’t achieving your potential.

scottlocklin 8y ago

I remember sitting in rapture listening to a retired Chevron executive describing the way white collar work used to be. You basically got hired at a megacorp for life. If things didn't work out after the first couple of years, you were gently taken aside, given nothing new to do, and given a salary and an office for an entire year to find a new position. I was flabbergasted. Only professors with tenure or certain government workers have this kind of job stability, but the entire upper middle class had it at one point. Sure, none of them won .com lotto; they arguably had much better lives on average. My dad was working class and in the union -he had a different kind of stability.

Gibbon1 8y ago
I talked to a Chevron Exec while stuck on a ski lift 30 years ago. Back then if they canceled or finished a project they just redeployed the workers to other projects. Vastly different than the current system where they just lay everyone off at the end. If things weren't working out bosses would just transfer employees to a role better suited to them. You'll get arguments this is more efficient cause free markets blah blah. However I know one semiconductor company in the valley that bucked that trend. Everyone went home at 5-6pm. Didn't work weekends. They just moved people around instead of firing them. And they totally crushed their competition over 20 years.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  100% agree with you. The modern organization is so short term focused and so dedicated to purging that they do not develop leadership and cannot handle failure. The cult of metrics breeds dumb. A big company is more like a Soviet enterprise than a functional business.
  - pm90 8y ago
    I am very interested to know what you mean by the cult of metrics?
    - sgt101 8y ago

Iamhisalt 8y ago

It’s okay to just say No to your employer and walk. Burnout is real. I got burned out at my last gig 2 years ago and I am still recovering from it mentally and physically - fighting depression and my new autoimmune disease. There’s no reason you should die for a job.

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2sk21 8y ago

I'm reminded of this great quote from "Soul of a new machine": He went away from the basement of Building 14 that day, and left this note in his cubicle, on top of his computer terminal: "I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season."

bsenftner 8y ago

I have an entire adult life that has been one burnout after another, continually driven by unrealistic expectations by immature management. As early as '83 being a dumb teen burned out by Apple being an unpaid beta tester for the Mac. Working on the original Fractals team with Mandelbrot and Devanny, I ended up in the hospital from the demands. Then again working at Philips developing video CDs, again at 3D0/EA making their failed console's OS, again at Sony making the PSX OS, again at EA develping during the EA Spouse era, again during the dotcom era developing early IP streaming video, again working in feature film VFX, again at my own startup, and yet still now working facial recognition. Technology kinda sucks, as if you're good they take advantage and bully your good will, mentally manipulating one. I am yet to see any organization without this disease.

TomMckenny 8y ago

There is no way to reduce workload and still generate enough income for the employer and revenue for the employee given current urban land valuations. And more generally, raise inequality and one group will have increased stress while the other has reduced stress. That is the point of wealth.

a_random_name 8y ago

I wonder if unionization could be a solution here.

bsenftner 8y ago
It would have to be global.

zxcvvcxz 8y ago

Oh no, terrible companies and terrible managers lacking emotional maturity and squeezing profits out of all us noble employees causing chronic stress and burnout! If you don't like it, why don't you just leave? Why don't you try starting your own companies with "emotional maturity" as a founding principle or whatever? "Oh no the system was already set up like this and I was born into it!" Then blame your parents and your ancestors, and then blame yourself for being no better than them in your ability to effect change. Complain all you want, but we humans live in a competitive dynamic with one another, because man wants money and status, in order to successfully pass on his genes. And the women just keep getting choosier, especially in developed countries where they are financially independent. So you better keep working harder and harder.

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fogetti 8y ago
Or why don't you just keep your lack of empathy to yourself? Did you get offended by an article about people who have problems which have zero impact on your life? Maybe you should take a hard look into yourself first before you comment here why you have such a low level of endurance reading about other people's woes.
gerbilly 8y ago
> So you better keep working harder and harder. You go ahead and do that, I'm going surfing later today. Kthxbye!

EGreg 8y ago

And what’s more, our society is unwittingly taking the side of corporations and try to push more of it on another 50% of the population, which is already overworked: http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286

jammygit 8y ago

This topic is important, but this article is weak. They cite a statement about doctor burnout, and a single study about employer statements about the topic. Most of the content is anecdotal, and in that sense they're just going for an 'I hear you' reaction instead of adding anything to the discussion. Disappointing imo.

jammygit 8y ago

If one was a founder who wanted to have their startup succeed without crushing your teams mental/physical health, how would you do it? I understand the founder accepting it as a cost themselves, but when the company's existence depends on speed, how do you balance the push with survival? Are there any good case studies?

Falkon1313 8y ago
- It's understandable that you're super-excited and willing to work 18-hour days to make your business a success. Probably not healthy, but understandable, because it's your baby. Don't expect that from others, because it's not their baby. They have their own babies (and hobby projects, friendships, etc.) that need their attention. - Consider an employee with 4 kids in different schools, each with different after-school activities, a spouse who also works, and an ailing parent/grandparent who needs care and won't be around much longer. Try to target your expectations for workload and time available to be appropriate for that hypothetical employee, in such a way that they can still live their life and care for their family while also being an effective and valuable employee. - If you're in software, plan for zero-downtime deployments from day one. Architect and develop for it from the beginning. Don't ask your employees to stay up all night doing deployments and maintenance during a 'quiet time' window in the middle of the night. It's not hard to do daytime deployments without taking the system offline if it's designed for it from the start, but it can be a major challenge to retrofit that ability. - Continually reassess your deadlines and priorities. If your deadlines are actually hard due to external factors, consider what can reasonably be cut to make the deadline. If they're soft, consider focusing more on priorities of what is most important rather than deadline dates. Seek to relieve pressure rather than creating it, by focusing on what's most important.

fastbeef 8y ago

I took a different approach to this - I started my own company a offer contracting services. I tell my clients "I work 40 hours a week, including communting. If you want ass-in-seat, that's ~30h/week. Want more? Let me work from home." (I tell them this in my most sale-sy, honey-dripping voice). None have objected. I now work on average 6 hours per day, 30 minute lunch, 2x40min train+walk commute where I space out with music or podcasts. I make more money, am happier and in better shape then ever. Can highly recommend.

titzer 8y ago

What I find absolute f'in sucks is living/working in Europe and interacting with Silicon Valley. The time difference between CET and PST is 9 hours. That means the European workday is essentially over when SV starts waking up and piling on the emails, bugs, requests, meetings, etc. So you either end up staying an extra hour or two to do meetings/chats and handle issues, or go home and check email periodically in the evening. Worst when there's a fire alarm and shit hits the fan at 9pm... Even if you do manage to disconnect, there's wreckage leftover for you to pick up the next morning. Have that happen about once a month and you'll be a frazelled mess, knowing every evening something could go horribly wrong. Just say no to timeshift!

p0nce 8y ago

There is a well-known burnout measurement test from Christina Maslach, who gave an interesting overview of job burnout in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRPBkCW0R5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRPBkCW0R5E

ImaCake 8y ago

I cannot overstate how useful an emergency fund is in the event of serious burnout. Being able to quit your job and escape from that one huge stressor can be incredibly useful for recovery.

gerbilly 8y ago

If you don't like job burnout, then: 1) Take on as little debt as you can. This means you'll have more control over what job situations you will be forced to tolerate. Don't fall into the trap of 'rewarding' yourself for your hard work with expensive vacations, cars toys, whatever. Debt is slavery. 2) Leave your work phone in a drawer at work on Friday night, or turn it off. If they bug you about it, tell everyone you went on a camping trip, or went on a multi-pitch rockclimbing expedition or whatever. Keep your work stuff off your personal phone too. If you have the kind of job where you are truly expected to be available all the time, start looking for another one. It's not worth your life. And if you're wondering why the boss doesn't seem to burnout even though he's always there and works weekends, it's be cause he has control over his work hours. If you don't, then look for a way to either change that or get out. These kind of work conditions can seem innocent enough, but if you keep that up for six months or a year and you are likely to burnout.