12 ms·
Told U.S. security at risk, Chinese firm seeks to sell Grindr dating app
- Waterluvian 8y agoAs a practical example, I'm guessing there's concern that they could get personal sexuality information about someone in the military and extort them with it. Seems really quite plausible to me.
- duxup 8y agoMilitary, politicians, even just some random citizen with a higher profile and some resources you could get to do some footwork. Not sure how this works as far as who should or shouldn't own these companies but there is some potential utility there, with very very little cost.
- unreal37 8y agoBut they already have it, right? If they wanted data on the sexual orientation of 27 million Americans, they have it.
- zachr 8y agoYes, they already have it, and that is the concern. If someone in Chinese intelligence wanted high quality extortion material, Chinese ownership of Grindr means they could probably get it with relative ease.
- btbuildem 8y agoI think what they're saying is that the horses are out of the barn now, reversing the sale won't undo the damage.
- btown 8y agoAnd now you just know that they're going to make some "offline backups" before the company changes hands. It's not likely that Grindr has bank-level auditing of whether a single bribed/coerced employee plugs in a flash drive.
- jorblumesea 8y agoNot sure how making it even easier to get this information is helpful or warranted.
- microcolonel 8y agoNot every closeted gay man who will sign up for Grindr has already signed up.
- gph 8y agoPresumably Grindr is going to continue to exist and gain new users, possibly for quite a long time. Just because they already have data on 27 million doesn't mean we should just shrug and leave it open for future millions more.
- lambdasquirrel 8y agoSo, Americans have bigoted views towards gays, which means a Chinese company can’t own a gay social network?
- ratling 8y agoPart of the process of getting a security clearance is proving you can't be blackmailed. Lots of things you would think are disqualifying aren't, as long as you disclose them (being involved with BDSM is the most obvious answer I'm aware of). The fact that they're LGBT isn't the issue with the repeal of don't ask don't tell. But if they're not out and they don't disclose then yes, this information is absolutely valuable. Money stuff is another disqualifying event. If you're heavily in debt then you're vulnerable to being paid off in exchange for something against the interests of the United States.
- notyourday 8y agoOk, so a Chinese engineer cannot work for OK Cupid or for Match? Or for Hinge? What about a Russian engineer? Or an Indian engineer?
- ratling 8y agoWhere did I say... literally any of that?
- notyourday 8y agoThere's no magic AI in Grindr that can answer the question "Show me all people that work for DoD that are into gay sex". There has to be some engineer or group of engineers to do it. It is the same with a Hinge/OKC/Match/etc.
- ratling 8y agoBecause they don't have a bunch of location information for everyone on grindr? If only someone did something in the last few years that would make this data super valuable. Like if Chinese intelligence broke into the US governments HR system and absconded with the data (including all their personal information including where they live). Oh wait...
- torqueTorrent 8y agoThe endgame vulnerability of a dating app containing PII including STD infection status, falling victim to insurmountable abuse or gaming via automation, AI or ML could rapidly or stealthily generate fast spreading health epidemics with extreme precision and strategy.
- kyrieeschaton 8y agoLeft unspoken is that the behavior of users of the app is ipso facto a security risk, regardless of who happens to own the platform they're using. This was why the US historically was leery about employing homosexuals in security contexts - they are vulnerable to blackmail and engage in behavior that makes them physically vulnerable (eg anonymous chemsex) on top of that.
- amaccuish 8y agoAnd straight people can't be blackmailed or engage in chemsex? There's a pile of examples of such cases, just check Wikipedia.
- fromthestart 8y agoLook, I know these seem like vile stereotypes, but honestly, make a profile and go on grindr and take a look at what people put in their profiles and the pictures they choose. No, it isn't universal, but grinder is a substantially less wholesome place than other dating site, including tinder. In fact it's because of this very stigma that Grindr makes for particularly good blackmail material - whether you think the stigma is warranted or not.
- aurelius83 8y agoThis is the sixth attempt in the past 24 hours to post this exact story. I wonder what it was about this attempt that caused it to spike up in points vs the other 5 attempts, which only maxed out at like 2 or 3 points?
- sctb 8y agoThe usual stochastic nature of getting to the front page, most likely. Since the WSJ is paywalled, we've re-upped the earliest Reuters post instead of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19505863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19505863.
- lskopwol 8y agoWhat makes Grindr special in this regard ? I’m sure there are other dating or social apps out there that also could be foreign owned and used for espionage....???
- mrbonner 8y agoThey could use the info collected from users who happening to have state secrets (def-cons, state employees, etc...). The bottom line is that the Chinese could use this fact to blackmail those users to cough up what they know in exchange for forceful "coming out of a closet" announcement.
- cl0ckt0wer 8y agoLots of clueless closeted politicians use it.
- yorwba 8y agoOther dating apps also allow users to state their sexual preferences, so although Grindr might have a higher density of potential blackmail material, they're not even guaranteed to have the largest collection. There must be something else that sets them apart from others. (Maybe they were the first to be acquired by a Chinese company?)
- Macross8299 8y agoMy guess is the density of potential blackmail material _is_ what sets it apart from the others -- the very act of being registered on Grindr is almost a smoking gun for being non-heterosexual if you wanted to out somebody. Much better odds of finding a target that matches with your other info and much more "damning" evidence to scare people with. edit: Furthermore, what other Chinese company owns a dating site used frequently by westerners?
- zachr 8y agoUnique with Grindr is that it's a safe bet that the majority of users have sent and received explicit photos. So if you want to find a congressman's dick pics that his wife doesn't know he's been sending to men..... grindr is probably a good place to do it.
- jdsully 8y agoI thought Cfius could only block deals. I’ve never heard of them forcing a sale and the article doesn’t really speak to this odd situation.
- dharmab 8y agoFrom TFA: >The development represents a rare, high-profile example of CFIUS undoing an acquisition that has already been completed. Kunlun took over Grindr through two separate deals between 2016 and 2018 without submitting the acquisition for CFIUS review, according to the sources, making it vulnerable to such an intervention.
- jdsully 8y agoThey must have added that later (or I failed at reading comprehension). Anyways thanks!
- mises 8y agoI think this is part of the growing resistance to china and its bad actions. The EU just did something similar: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/03/europe-moves-to-better-monitor-foreign-investments-sort-of-a-cfius/ https://breakingdefense.com/2019/03/europe-moves-to-better-m... People are starting to wake up to the fact that china won't stop until the west stops it.
- gonvaled 8y agoYou mean until the US stops doing similar spying worldwide? Makes sense.
- mises 8y agoI don't approve of America surveilling her own citizens, but at least she doesn't abuse the information the way china does. Show me the reeducation camps, great firewall, etc. in America. Not perfect, certainly, but much less bad.
- 8y ago
- codedokode 8y agoThe proper solution would be not to collect personal data, especially if it is not necessary for functioning of the app, rather than worry about who is going to buy the company.
- CharlesColeman 8y ago> The proper solution would be not to collect personal data, especially if it is not necessary for functioning of the app, rather than worry about who is going to buy the company. How would that work? Even if the app doesn't collect data now, it could always be modified to collect data later. The problem isn't so much the data they collect, but the users they have. Avoiding the collection of personal data only mitigates against actors who can only access data passively, like in data breach events. It doesn't mitigate against actors who can initiate active collection of data.
- matthewmacleod 8y agoI mean that’s valid, but a gay hookup app is going to struggle with not retaining personal data - location, pictures, sexual preferences, messages, HIV status, links to other social profiles…
- codedokode 8y agoThe app doesn't need precise location, full name, phone number or email. So if they won't collect it then there would be less useful information to leak. Having just photos without a way to identify the owner doesn't help much.
- make3 8y agoI wonder if the same owner as Tinder and OkCupid will buy this, becoming a dating (and casual sex, and etc.) superpower. I always thought funny how OkCupid pushes ads like "You're tired of the dirty flesh market of Tinder? We hear you! Come use OkCupid!" and they have the same owner as Tinder
- fromthestart 8y agoIt makes sense, okcupid and tinder target, perhaps unintentionally at first, different markets by virtue of their different images and interactions. And they're sufficiently different to seem like totally independent dating pools, so people are probably going to fork up cash for both even if they get ads on one of them for the other.
- wwweston 8y agoIt's generally best to be reserved about trusting any business to put principle or mission ahead of financial rewards, so, yeah, it's probably not true that OkCupid's owners (present or past) were not in their hearts mission-focused around substance over photo-swipe matching techniques and business success just came naturally. That said, there's nothing particularly inconsistent about having different product lines and brands for different market segments. I don't think much of any of the Swipe-to-Date apps, but lots of people seem to. Some people seem to prefer OKC. Some people would rather buy a Lexus than a Toyota, or Pizza Hut over Taco Bell.
- make3 8y agoIt's not a judgement on my part, I was finding it humorous that their ads for OkCupid were basically calling Tinder cheap and shallow just as a marketing ploy to get the users on their side while sharing the same owner, a bit like finding out a vegan restaurant that markets itself by calling meat foods unhealthy actually has the same owner as burger king.
- adventured 8y agoI'm not sure Match Group (Tinder, OkCupid, PlentyOfFish, Match.com, Meetic) can become much more of a dating superpower. I suppose Grindr would nearly complete the monopoly. They're still missing Zoosk, eHarmony, Grindr, Bumble and a few other smaller players. $15 billion market cap, $1.7b in sales, $477m in profit. Only 1,400 employees. Match, despite being public, is of course roughly 80% owned by InterActiveCorp (IAC).
- killjoywashere 8y agoNice to see someone taking the Chinese foothold in SV seriously. I've also heard people who go to work for Chinese companies are then blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year. Can anyone confirm?
- daniel-cussen 8y ago> blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year While I don't have the knowledge to confirm or deny this, I find it pretty lenient of the US not only because it's only a year, but also because it's open enough about it. Keeping in mind Aurora and the Lockheed Martin F35 hack, and that national security opposing a superpower is not a problem that solves itself, I find it does not undermine American values or freedoms.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoThere are similar longer sanctions if you have a Chinese spouse and such.
- sneak 8y agoHow is this not naked racism? Or do race-based anti-discrimination laws simply not apply to some government jobs?
- lmz 8y agoIt's national origin based, not race based.
- Kadin 8y agoIt's not a question of whether you have a Chinese spouse; that's not correct, and that would be racist. It's a question of whether or not you or your spouse have ongoing relationships with Chinese nationals and could, as a result, be subject to influence by the Chinese government. If you were married to someone who, say, had fled China and had no connection to anyone there, that's likely to be fine. If you're married to someone who has a whole extended family back in China and visits them four times a year, well, that's pretty obviously a potential vulnerability that's going to be considered as part of a background investigation. It's not a question of ethnicity or race, it's a question of having avenues of influence by a foreign government.
- odyssey7 8y agoI don't think I've seen an arrangement like this before.
- stevefan1999 8y agoBut being LGBT in China is much more accepted than in the west, so I don't see the point here...although not if they had sex tapes or is critiqued by the official media
- yourbandsucks 8y agoYou at least have anecdotal sources for that? My anecdotal experience is the opposite, one generation away from the farm and all..
- stevefan1999 8y agoWell, most of us are neutral about LGBT, we don't care whether you're gay or not if you can get things done.
- sdinsn 8y agoThe Chinese government sure cares, since same-sex marriage is not legal.
- mostlysimilar 8y agoIs that true? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China#Summary_table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China#Summary_t...
- ariwilson 8y agoHuh? "Same-sex couples are unable to marry or adopt, and households headed by such couples are ineligible for the same legal protections available to opposite-sex couples." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China
- nyokodo 8y agoFor extortion based on Grindr data to work it only requires the target to not want the information released. The target might be in a relationship and be cheating on their partner etc or any number of other reasons that have nothing to do with how generally accepted homosexuality is where they live.
- KerrickStaley 8y agoThis is a very tinfoil-hat-y perspective, but is it possible that this action gained support inside the Trump White House because it makes life more difficult for Grindr? I think the theory that it's about potential blackmail and extortion is a more likely explanation, and overall I think it makes sense for the government to take this action, but it might have been boosted by ulterior motives (see also CNN/AT&T/Time Warner).
- azinman2 8y agoBut they’re seeking to have it be sold... not shutdown. So why would that be part of the WH agenda?
- KerrickStaley 8y agoIt still creates financial turmoil for Grindr, especially given that it was considering an IPO. The IPO would have been a financial windfall for many employees, whereas an acquisition may mean no immediate liquidity for those employees' shares and may have less desirable terms (because it's forced and has to be completed by some deadline). This may hurt morale.
- drewbug01 8y agoAn additional security concern is Grindr’s location tracking. If you haven’t used it, it broadcasts people as “N feet away” on a grid (sorted by distance). That information could be used to discern the locations of military personnel.