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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

302 points by alanwong 8y ago

ada1981 8y ago
This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?
  - mamon 8y ago
    >> what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
    - thanksDr 8y ago
      Disgusting that people would downvote this! If we allow this to become normal, we'll regret it.
      - blotter_paper 8y ago
        This mantra can be used to attack anybody for any reason, as long as you call them "evil." It's a road you can go down, but I wouldn't.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?
    - Leary 8y ago
      You can ask Chinese people whether they think the system is good and whether they want you to boycott China.
      - godelski 8y ago
        I'd be interested in this, but every Chinese person that I've spoken to (they haven't been back to China in awhile), seems to think it is either just like the American credit system or that the government already knows everything about them and that there's security through obscurity. Is this common? Not considering politics for a second, I just couldn't imagine the impact of an Equifax like event with that amount of information.
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-people-china-think-about-social-credit-monitoring/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p... Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government. Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Putin. It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them.
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        > It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them. Also see Hitler's popular approval ratings [0] (Godwin's law notwithstanding). In August 1934, roughly 90% of German voters were in favor of the consolidation of the offices of President and Chancellor into a single Leader-Chancellor in the person of Adolf Hitler. Note that number should be taken with a big grain of salt, since there was tremendous social and political pressure to vote that way -- and a threat of repercussions for voting "no". [0] https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0819.html#article https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general...
  - wpdev_63 8y ago
    The US is competing with China not just economically but socially as well. If China succeeds in creating a more 'productive' and 'complacent' population with its policies, expect the US government to do the same. Remember the US still has the largest surveillance apparatus in the world. All they would need to do to implement a social credit system is to flip a couple of switches.
    - mindslight 8y ago
      Those "switches" don't even need to be flipped by the US Government writ large. Boardroom meetings by "private" companies deciding to integrate ever more of the commercial surveillance infrastructure will suffice.
      - wpdev_63 8y ago
        Are you talking about the B.E.N.S.[0] program? Then yes, companies can currently target individuals very easily/illegally using the fusion centers. It's widely known that american companies have this capability but don't really know the details... [0]:https://www.bens.org/ https://www.bens.org/
        mindslight 8y ago
        No, I wasn't talking about anything specific. Just the general setup of having a large part of US surveillance performed by commercial entities, combined with the ability of public companies administering critical services to refuse doing business with arbitrary individuals. For example: see the "unbanked". Rather than fixing the banking system so that basic transactions do not rely on credit, it's easier to create a whole class of people that the industry tells to get lost.
        wpdev_63 8y ago
        I guess people can be blacklisted. Google, Microsoft, and a bunch of others have blacklists from which they harass people and the banks I guess can refuse to process individual's transactions in their version of an orwellian wet dream but they threaten the company's integrity when they do that many times over. "O there just been a mistake at the bank" goes to "they are racially profiling me" very quickly. These very same programs target political activists. Also it doesn't help that there are decentralized alternative popping up everywhere. If monero(crypto coin) ever became mainstream, the world would be a very different place.
  - justaguyhere 8y ago
    In what way would you boycott China? This doesn't seem that easy - after all, most products in western super markets are made in China. Maybe people can stop traveling to China, but that wouldn't make a difference big enough for the Chinese ruling class to care. But why restrict this question to China (though this particular article is about China)? Why not Saudi Arabia, for example? as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours Because, if this works, other governments will follow, in no time and likely with Chinese government help. They will "learn" from Chinese government's "experience". Even if you didn't care about the plight of Chinese people, you'd surely care about your own countrymen's freedom? Tech surveillance is more dangerous than anything, because it is easier and cheaper to implement and it can scale, compared to any other system.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      > This doesn't seem that easy - after all, most products in western super markets are made in China. That is most definitely not the case, almost all of our groceries and soft goods (that supermarkets sell) come from domestic or nearby foreign sources. Perhaps you meant hypermarkets or discount department stores like Walmart?
  - merpnderp 8y ago
    That's exactly the same argument people made about apartheid South Africa. And yet nearly everyone would say sanctions and boycotts were appropriate and effective. China has millions of minorities in detention centers with some highly questionable things happening to those people. If you believe in justice and human rights, it is everyone's business what happens there.
  - CodingSucks 8y ago
    We've finally found the one problem HackerNews willingly admits it can't innovate around: boycotting China.
- pxue 8y ago
  i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is government way saying enough is enough.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”
    - jandrese 8y ago
      Being a problem for local party officials too. Pretty hard to campaign against corruption if you are barred from travel and other systems.
    - powerapple 8y ago
      no, not really.
    - yorwba 8y ago
      You may be certain that you understand the list (this one http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/), but you are mistaken. You probably read an article about the "social credit system" that got the details wrong. Getting put on the list is a punishment that can be ordered by a court for various infractions, but not buying video games, because (unlike the other three) it is merely frowned upon, but not illegal. Discouraging video games was part of one companies' private implementation of a "social credit system". The list is another "social credit system". Various local governments within China are also running their own pilots. Those systems are not connected yet. It is expected that eventually the Chinese government will decide on one implementation by selecting parts of the pilot projects, but it isn't clear which parts. Until that happens, buying too many video games isn't going to ban you from taking high-speed rail.
- throwaway28031 8y ago
  I don't understand the fear of the social credit system. It doesn't seem too different from the American credit scoring system. They are both systems designed by the elites to shape the behavior of commoners. Why do I have to regularly use a credit card to prove that I am credit worthy, so that I can get a bank loan to buy a house?
  - gbear605 8y ago
    Because the bank wants assurance that you’re not going to go bankrupt or just not pay it back, and reliably paying off your credit card is a proxy for that. Whereas you taking a high speed train is not a risk, so blocking that is just punishment.
    - powerapple 8y ago
      These people do not want to repay their debts, mostly. And they have money, properties they don't declare. It is a solution to solve problems in China, not problems in US.
  - kaiju0 8y ago
    I think the fear come from how hard it would be to dig out of the hole. People make mistakes. Under the American system the mistakes expire after time. I have not heard of the expiration of offences in this system. This social credit system is new an may evolve with time.
  - veryworried 8y ago
    Sorry, but you are not entitled to a house or any loans. This is not "elites shaping the behavior of commoners", this is just common sense. Loaning money to people is an investment and giving money to people who have no history of even paying off a simple credit card bill doesn't make sense. It's like being 20 years old and creating a new startup then wondering why investors don't want to give you any money so you can hire out staff and build a product. It's not inherently impossible to get a loan with no credit history, just really difficult to do without something else to inspire confidence. And frankly, considering how easy it is for any Joe to build a decent credit history from just using credit cards I'd say most lenders are actually doing consumers a favor by lending them such vast amounts of money on such a basic premise. I know if it were my money I'd be way more conservative.
- sneak 8y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-05/why-china-has-detained-as-many-as-1-million-muslims-quicktake https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-05/why-china... If you are looking for inhumane behaviors upon which to base a boycott of China, there are several better choices.
Lidador 8y ago
Neuromancer, 1984, William Gibson.
shereadsthenews 8y ago
Yes, spending 30 hours on a train and getting 900 miles down the track sounds like a fate worse than death. -Confused American
- mindslight 8y ago
  CHI->LAX is 2000 miles in about 45 hours, so still about 40% slower than even US rail travel. I did appreciate the quip though.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
It is an interesting experiment but if it is really a tool for social change then the ability to correct one's score can't really rely entirely on things where the individual has no control. In the US getting a felony on your record is perhaps the biggest limiter to your future success that you can do. There are so many things stacked against you at that point. In California there is at least a process for getting some felonies expunged, which allows you to get back on to the playing field of life without that weight dragging you down. The article seems to make the case that the only way the victim could get their status restored was to come up with money somehow to repay debts.
- gowld 8y ago
  It's China. It's a tool for social control and keeping the Communist Party billionaires in power.
  - chessturk 8y ago
    > the Communist Party billionaires It's so Orwellian. All of it.
    - Teknoman117 8y ago
      The joke goes - When the rest of the world took Orwell's 1984 as a warning, China used it as a model. However, that joke really isn't true, because all the countries took it as a model, it's just that China seems to be somewhat proud of that fact, whereas the rest tried to do it covertly.
AmVess 8y ago
USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.
- deogeo 8y ago
  Isn't there some constitutional safeguard against punishment without trial/crime? Someone more knowledgeable please chime in. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li... - insane.
- LeanderK 8y ago
  Are you serious? That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work? then this is really counterproductive.
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    Similar things happen with unpaid child support, which absolutely doesn't help money actually show up for obvious reasons.
  - iooi 8y ago
    That's the whole point. Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      > Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.
moosey 8y ago
> In order for him to clear his debts, Kong argues, he needs to be able to succeed at his new business – but that is hard to do if prospective partners and customers shun him because of his official status as a “deadbeat.” This is awful. Totally admit it, they shouldn't do it, etc. About the same as being a released felon in the United States. We also allow financial information to be pulled for background checks in the United States: > A check of a candidate’s background may include employment, education, criminal records, credit history, motor vehicle and license record checks. From https://www.hireright.com/background-check-faq/answers/what-does-a-background-check-consist-of/ https://www.hireright.com/background-check-faq/answers/what-... We already have what is functionally a social credit system in the United States, you'll find the people suffering under it getting harassed by ICE boarding greyhound buses.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.
  - ordu 8y ago
    It is a very american thing to say. I mean "it is bad, because it is regulated". Why? I suppose that social credit system of China is abused to make life of political opposition harder, but the article discussed is not about it. It shows case of a failed debtor. And for him it doesn't matter if social credit system is regulated or controlled by the market. What does matter for him is what impact this system has to his life. What opportunities to repaid his debt this social system closes for him? In some ways US credit system seems worse for me. The only way to get into it is to get a credit. But what if I do not like to pay interest rates? If I'm higly conscious and I can put down my impulses to buy things, to consume for the sake of consumption, to live on pennies while building a capital from scratch? It wouldn't work, because of this system. There are no way to demonstrate your credit reliability and trustworthiness to a system except paying interest rates. At the same time in China a person has non-financial ways to build up her social score. There are a bad sides, of course, like brutal punishments to those, who've hit negative scores, and it completely makes China's system unattractive for me, comparing with the US one. Seems that China's system is less tolerant for a risky behaviour, while US system just put you on rails of debt and gives you no other way. The latter seems less disgusting for me, but I'm glad that I have not to deal with any. And as outsider for both I really see no big decisive difference between them, they seem for me very similar.
Legogris 8y ago
Not at all defending the system here, but the article exaggerates quite a bit when talking about the trains. > In China, only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train. I have taken a similar train from Shanghai to Shenyang, it was also a bit north of 30 hours. Sure, it was not very clean and as everywhere you may encounter unconventional people but in general it's not at all the deadbeat caravan they paint it out to be.
- chessturk 8y ago
  Can I ask how recent that was? I'm a total outsider, but I've heard China's changed like crazy.
  - Legogris 8y ago
    This was two years ago.
- alanwong 8y ago
  OP and Inkstone editor here. The slow train certainly isn't a deadbeat caravan, and I don't think the article suggests that. But it is unusual for a businessman to take this train instead of the high-speed options.
  - Legogris 8y ago
    Thanks for the reply and for doing an article on this. Of course most businessmen would almost always take the high-speed option, but that is the case in Europe too. I did meet and talk to a man who owned a factory on the train, though, and I get the impression that middle-class people and students will still take it for trips in their free-time. Not necessarily because they can't afford other options and I think it's just untrue that "only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train". If that had been a quote by the subject, that is one thing, but here it's stated as fact. Don't you think there's more to the story than that his associates deduced his laolai status just by which train he came by?
caprese 8y ago
> If he had money to buy an airline ticket, they told the South China Morning Post, he should use it to repay what he owed. This line of thinking spans cultures and completely ignores the velocity or time value of money. It is extremely counterproductive and doesn't factor in what someone is trying to do. This punitive approach to all forms of spending and consumption hampers the productivity of nations. A simplistic analysis like this has no way to distinguish someone shirking their debts, and someone reinvesting in a future business prospect, or just unwinding! All humans want to unwind. People with lower debt ratios do the same thing. They don't always pay things down, don't always prioritize debts in any particular order. So this privilege shouldn't disappear just because someone is visibly having money challenges or merely known to have a creditor.
- powerapple 8y ago
  Apparently then a person found out he couldn't fly in airport, he paid back the money straightaway from his phone. True story.
  - caprese 8y ago
    got to know your culture then
caprese 8y ago
I can't believe China copied our no-fly list too!
andreilys 8y ago
Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism
- moosey 8y ago
  But do you deny that felons have the same issue? How many felons do we have today that were punished by non-violent drug crimes, by design as far as I can tell. As a US citizen, I don't believe that pointing out my own faults is "whataboutism". It is self-criticism. "Whataboutism" is a defense. I am not defending China, what they are doing is awful, and we should work to make sure that the systems that we have in our country don't replicate it whatsoever. Basically, I am taking "Appeal to Hypocrisy" and flipping it on its head. For the most part, I do not have the ability, power, or vote to alter the course of Chinese politics. However, most people on here have the opportunity to do so in the US.
  - pdonis 8y ago
    > How many felons do we have today that were punished by non-violent drug crimes, by design as far as I can tell. Yes, but the fix for this problem is not to stop allowing people to consider a past felony conviction when determining what sort of business to do with a person. The fix for this problem is to stop criminalizing things that shouldn't be criminalized, like non-violent possession or use of drugs.
  - cinquemb 8y ago
    >However, most people on here have the opportunity to do so in the US. Good on you for fighting the good fight, I've abandoned all hope: I'll let our societies figure out where this winding path goes itself and hedge accordingly…
  - sgustard 8y ago
    >I do not have the ability, power, or vote to alter the course of Chinese politics. Nor do Chinese citizens.
ataturk 8y ago
Some people at my company accidentally got termed and became "un-people." If that ever scales up to state or federal level it would be a living hell. Might as well revolt, you have no other option.
Animats 8y ago
"One creditor said the company was a sham from the beginning, with fabricated expenditure and cooked books." Looks like the system is working. If "barred from participation in the securities markets" by the SEC meant flying in coach and no landing slots for private aircraft, it might have more effect.
- chaseha 8y ago
  Along that line, if the US had a similar system, our current president would have been marked a "deadbeat" long before he got the chance to run for office (not saying the system is right, just saying)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
golemiprague 8y ago
How is it different to someone who is perceived as too far right in the US? We have already heard about people not being served by tech giants and banks just because of their political views. It never goes the other way around though. So in China it is the government doing it based on their values and in the US it is facebook or patreon or even regular banks doing it based on their values. In both cases it is an authoritarian decision by a monopoly or coordinated which the simple citizen got no control of and there is no any transparency to their actions.
_bxg1 8y ago
Studies, especially in recent years, have shown that punishment is not an effective way of improving on self-destructive behavior. Usually things like procrastination and substance abuse are irrational symptoms of emotional drain and hopelessness, and punishment exacerbates those problems. There was an HN post about it just the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411. Poverty and debt tend to also protract out from this kind of emotional bankruptcy. I hold some small hope that despite their lack of empathy, regimes will at least see the practical side of how ineffective this kind of policy is and how much it inevitably will hurt their economy, after trying it out for a while. Hopefully that lesson will be learned while it's still mostly contained to China.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Also, keep in mind that China has an economy right now that is in many ways precarious, and big parts of that include corruption and debt. That doesn't make this right, but it makes it more understandable and contextual, and may bode better for the rest of the world's countries which aren't in that kind of situation (and for future China).
- est 8y ago
  The truth is simple: In China, banks are run by the government, yet there are shit ton of scams that borrows money from the party and never pays it back. In many cases the loan guarantor has no mortgage to payback at all. In this "social credit" system from Supreme Court, 90% of the victims are worthless loan guarantors involved in some kind of loan scam.
- alanwong 8y ago
  OP and Inkstone editor here. I think you raised a really, really interesting point. One thing I think many people overlook in China's social credit system is its stated goal – to create a system that rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior – and whether this system can really tackle self-destructive behavior you describe, like debt. And what's going to happen to people who're entering a debt spiral, and are as a result further punished by the system? Does the idea of social credit mean these people are simply abandoned?
coldtea 8y ago
This Kafkaesque system will be the end result of the constant increased collection of information from governments (and private businesses, which is the same, they're bed-pals, only after a certain size it's the businesses that wear the strap-on) everywhere. Technology is a multiplier. It can give us some irrelevant goods (basically, access to every article, news, movie, information without effort, in other words, without any real investment from us, or the ability to make some bureaucratic experience faster, while helping add tons of new bureaucratic requisites that weren't there before), but it mostly multiplies control, and thus dystopia.
jondubois 8y ago
The bankruptcy system in the western world is far too lenient; it encourages ruthless risk-taking behavior which benefits selfish people at the expense of those who are socially conscientious. This social credit system doesn't seem so bad when you put things into perspective. If our system punished selfish people more, as a conscientious individual, I would be better off. I don't buy this bullshit that selfish people drive the engines of progress; they don't drive it; they just capture the proceeds of progress. John D. Rockefeller himself admitted that "He who works all day, has no time to make money".
- wonderwonder 8y ago
  if you are born poor you miss out on the benefits that allow people to be successful. Take this site for example it encourages people to take risk and start a business. Worst that can happen if most of us fail is that we move in with our parents. If you grew up poor, maybe your parents don't have a place for you to stay if you fail so the ability to start a business is essentially closed to you as you don't have the safety blanket of your middle class colleagues. To claim that people who declare bankruptcy are selfish is quite a blanket statement and leads me to believe that you have never known poverty. Try being poor or even border line and breaking a leg or having a child get cancer. Try getting laid off for even a few weeks when over 40% of Americans cant even come up with $400 to cover an emergency.
  - floe 8y ago
    I think the above poster is talking about corporate bankruptcy, while you are talking about personal bankruptcy. I agree with both of you :)
geuszb 8y ago
I definitely felt on the wrong side of a gazillion popup banners after that click
- ColanR 8y ago
  try the umatrix extension...I got nothing but nicely readable text.
- alanwong 8y ago
  I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm an editor of the website. What pop-up banners did you see? Would love to improve the UX for you and other readers here.
  - geuszb 8y ago
    Opening up the site, I saw the headline load up, then something asking for notification permissions, then I'm not sure exactly what happened but many elements came on screen at the same time and the browser window became unresponsive (Chrome latest on a Samsung Galaxy S7). A subsequent visit worked out better, so I wonder if you have a problem on the first ever load of your site.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Since you are the editor, can you explain the relationship between SCMP and Inkstone? I noticed that this article was also posted on SCMP (with minor differences, curiously enough), so is Inkstone only a way to experiment with a different website design, or will there eventually be Inkstone-exclusive articles?
qlk1123 8y ago
Rumor has had it that there is a social credit system in China, and now this report reveals one part of it, which I believe is also just one small piece in the whole mass surveillance puzzle. As a Taiwanese, I don't know how the system works, nor can I feel the same as what Chinese citizens under that surveillance feel. However I can certainly say that, there must be an another part of the system that monitors "political activists" against CCP. Let's call this part as X below. Once you are in the blacklist of X due to reasons like criticizing Chinese government, you loses some rights implicitly, and the worst part is that X applies even if you are not a Chinese citizen. I have two examples here: 1. Taiwanese rights advocate Lee Ming-che held in China https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39428220 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39428220 Lee has been in prison since 29 March 2017, because he "ruined Nation Security." He was retained for months before he had a trial. 2. [Documentary] Self-censorship by Kevin H.J. Lee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpHFVZX2TuA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpHFVZX2TuA He criticized CCP and then he could not obtain a visa to even Hong Kong. In this documentary, many instances of such censorship are mentioned, and you can see how the atmosphere is under such surveillance.
- powerapple 8y ago
  "..... I don't know how it works ..... however, I can certainly say that , there must be ....." you lost me there.
  - qlk1123 8y ago
    Just tried to be honest, but sure I should have put that in another way. Thanks for the feedback anyway.
mk926 8y ago
You guys do not live in China, you guys cannot understand that in China biggest problem is credit, many people not pay the debt deliberately, many people do not follow the rule. even the reporter herself do not live in China, she live in Hong Kong. I do not know if the social credit system is the right solution, but think more how many people lives in this country, and how law is weak in this country, and how mass the society that is not like western country.
duxup 8y ago
>In some places, telecoms companies even apply a special ringtone to the phone numbers of laolai as a warning. The ringtone as a scarlet letter...
wjmao88 8y ago
This is not the social credit system(edit based on OP comment: the dystopic social credit system that people are afraid of). This is just the list of discredited people("Shi Xin Zhe" list) published by China's court system. The whole list is published on http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/ You don't end up on the list for simply owing money (and it has nothing to do with social mis/conduct), you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe, and the court determining that you do have to pay and that you have the ability to pay based on your personal financials (or if you refuse to disclose your personal financials to the court), and you still refuse to pay. Hence why its maintained by the court system. The word "Lao Lai" that is quoted to describe them in the article is literally "long term renege".
- frotak 8y ago
  > you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe You mean like the summary judgments that can be leveled against debtors in the US by debt collection agencies... And which...ding your credit score. Which makes it harder to get credit...secure a loan...(sometimes) get housing...(sometimes) get a job Versus...institutional segregation and denial of services by the government. Definitely not even in the same ballpark and definitely an artifact of the "social credit system" as described by the authors of this article in other comments here as being an accumulated set of practices and programs in China - no single thing.
  - wjmao88 8y ago
    No, I mean like how in the US the creditor can get the court to let them take your property (except certain exempt things like your primary residence) and garnish your wages.
    - shadowbannedtoo 8y ago
      There's only a few states that a primary residence is safe. Texas being one. Where I live, in CA, they can take pretty much everything. (Downvote me, or upvote please. Still not sure if Dong is mad at my ip.)
NoblePublius 8y ago
I don’t see how this is functionally different than having your wages garnished by a court order. Deadbeat dads are subject to the same financial scrutiny in the US. I get the feeling now that much of the criticism of this system is just Western media clickbait.
- not_kurt_godel 8y ago
  It is fundamentally different in numerous ways. Being in debt in the western world does not mean you are officially prohibited from certain forms of travel, for starters. Another huge difference is that China's system is based on factors other than financial dealings such as anti-government views. It is a much stricter, less fair, more authoritarian system in nearly every aspect. I find your whataboutism to be highly suspicious.
  - NoblePublius 8y ago
    If you’re a deadbeat dad and your wages are garnished, you’re blocked from travel because you don’t have any money. And if you spend the money on travel instead of your kids, the Court would know instantly in states where the Court systems plug into your bank accounts. We already do this. The Chinese system just seems more efficient. Obviously this is a horror show in a country without due process, but I have no problem with debtors being denied niceties.
  - dang 8y ago
    Your last sentence breaks the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing (and spying or shilling and all the rest of it). Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? If anyone wants further explanation, there is plenty at the links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892. Also, please don't use the tired trope of "whataboutism" on HN. It contains no information, and is a form of name-calling that breaks the site guidelines as well. More on that: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20whataboutism https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Your comment would be fine without that last sentence.
known 8y ago
Sounds like Chinese version of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw
bashwizard 8y ago
The dystopian cyberpunk world we know from movies, books, video games is getting closer.
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A form of Algorithmic Segregation. Let's not forget who started that trend. Here [1] is a screenshot of an example from 2016. [1] https://chorasimilarity.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/screen-shot-2016-11-11-at-10-47-16.png https://chorasimilarity.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/screen-s...
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302 points by alanwong 8y ago

ada1981 8y ago

This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?
- mamon 8y ago
  >> what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
  - thanksDr 8y ago
    Disgusting that people would downvote this! If we allow this to become normal, we'll regret it.
    - blotter_paper 8y ago
      This mantra can be used to attack anybody for any reason, as long as you call them "evil." It's a road you can go down, but I wouldn't.
- ada1981 8y ago
  I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?
  - Leary 8y ago
    You can ask Chinese people whether they think the system is good and whether they want you to boycott China.
    - godelski 8y ago
      I'd be interested in this, but every Chinese person that I've spoken to (they haven't been back to China in awhile), seems to think it is either just like the American credit system or that the government already knows everything about them and that there's security through obscurity. Is this common? Not considering politics for a second, I just couldn't imagine the impact of an Equifax like event with that amount of information.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-people-china-think-about-social-credit-monitoring/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p... Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government. Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Putin. It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them.
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      > It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them. Also see Hitler's popular approval ratings [0] (Godwin's law notwithstanding). In August 1934, roughly 90% of German voters were in favor of the consolidation of the offices of President and Chancellor into a single Leader-Chancellor in the person of Adolf Hitler. Note that number should be taken with a big grain of salt, since there was tremendous social and political pressure to vote that way -- and a threat of repercussions for voting "no". [0] https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0819.html#article https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general...
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  The US is competing with China not just economically but socially as well. If China succeeds in creating a more 'productive' and 'complacent' population with its policies, expect the US government to do the same. Remember the US still has the largest surveillance apparatus in the world. All they would need to do to implement a social credit system is to flip a couple of switches.
  - mindslight 8y ago
    Those "switches" don't even need to be flipped by the US Government writ large. Boardroom meetings by "private" companies deciding to integrate ever more of the commercial surveillance infrastructure will suffice.
    - wpdev_63 8y ago
      Are you talking about the B.E.N.S.[0] program? Then yes, companies can currently target individuals very easily/illegally using the fusion centers. It's widely known that american companies have this capability but don't really know the details... [0]:https://www.bens.org/ https://www.bens.org/
      - mindslight 8y ago
        No, I wasn't talking about anything specific. Just the general setup of having a large part of US surveillance performed by commercial entities, combined with the ability of public companies administering critical services to refuse doing business with arbitrary individuals. For example: see the "unbanked". Rather than fixing the banking system so that basic transactions do not rely on credit, it's easier to create a whole class of people that the industry tells to get lost.
        wpdev_63 8y ago
        I guess people can be blacklisted. Google, Microsoft, and a bunch of others have blacklists from which they harass people and the banks I guess can refuse to process individual's transactions in their version of an orwellian wet dream but they threaten the company's integrity when they do that many times over. "O there just been a mistake at the bank" goes to "they are racially profiling me" very quickly. These very same programs target political activists. Also it doesn't help that there are decentralized alternative popping up everywhere. If monero(crypto coin) ever became mainstream, the world would be a very different place.
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  In what way would you boycott China? This doesn't seem that easy - after all, most products in western super markets are made in China. Maybe people can stop traveling to China, but that wouldn't make a difference big enough for the Chinese ruling class to care. But why restrict this question to China (though this particular article is about China)? Why not Saudi Arabia, for example? as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours Because, if this works, other governments will follow, in no time and likely with Chinese government help. They will "learn" from Chinese government's "experience". Even if you didn't care about the plight of Chinese people, you'd surely care about your own countrymen's freedom? Tech surveillance is more dangerous than anything, because it is easier and cheaper to implement and it can scale, compared to any other system.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    > This doesn't seem that easy - after all, most products in western super markets are made in China. That is most definitely not the case, almost all of our groceries and soft goods (that supermarkets sell) come from domestic or nearby foreign sources. Perhaps you meant hypermarkets or discount department stores like Walmart?
- merpnderp 8y ago
  That's exactly the same argument people made about apartheid South Africa. And yet nearly everyone would say sanctions and boycotts were appropriate and effective. China has millions of minorities in detention centers with some highly questionable things happening to those people. If you believe in justice and human rights, it is everyone's business what happens there.
- CodingSucks 8y ago
  We've finally found the one problem HackerNews willingly admits it can't innovate around: boycotting China.
pxue 8y ago
i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is government way saying enough is enough.
- ada1981 8y ago
  I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Being a problem for local party officials too. Pretty hard to campaign against corruption if you are barred from travel and other systems.
  - powerapple 8y ago
    no, not really.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    You may be certain that you understand the list (this one http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/), but you are mistaken. You probably read an article about the "social credit system" that got the details wrong. Getting put on the list is a punishment that can be ordered by a court for various infractions, but not buying video games, because (unlike the other three) it is merely frowned upon, but not illegal. Discouraging video games was part of one companies' private implementation of a "social credit system". The list is another "social credit system". Various local governments within China are also running their own pilots. Those systems are not connected yet. It is expected that eventually the Chinese government will decide on one implementation by selecting parts of the pilot projects, but it isn't clear which parts. Until that happens, buying too many video games isn't going to ban you from taking high-speed rail.
throwaway28031 8y ago
I don't understand the fear of the social credit system. It doesn't seem too different from the American credit scoring system. They are both systems designed by the elites to shape the behavior of commoners. Why do I have to regularly use a credit card to prove that I am credit worthy, so that I can get a bank loan to buy a house?
- gbear605 8y ago
  Because the bank wants assurance that you’re not going to go bankrupt or just not pay it back, and reliably paying off your credit card is a proxy for that. Whereas you taking a high speed train is not a risk, so blocking that is just punishment.
  - powerapple 8y ago
    These people do not want to repay their debts, mostly. And they have money, properties they don't declare. It is a solution to solve problems in China, not problems in US.
- kaiju0 8y ago
  I think the fear come from how hard it would be to dig out of the hole. People make mistakes. Under the American system the mistakes expire after time. I have not heard of the expiration of offences in this system. This social credit system is new an may evolve with time.
- veryworried 8y ago
  Sorry, but you are not entitled to a house or any loans. This is not "elites shaping the behavior of commoners", this is just common sense. Loaning money to people is an investment and giving money to people who have no history of even paying off a simple credit card bill doesn't make sense. It's like being 20 years old and creating a new startup then wondering why investors don't want to give you any money so you can hire out staff and build a product. It's not inherently impossible to get a loan with no credit history, just really difficult to do without something else to inspire confidence. And frankly, considering how easy it is for any Joe to build a decent credit history from just using credit cards I'd say most lenders are actually doing consumers a favor by lending them such vast amounts of money on such a basic premise. I know if it were my money I'd be way more conservative.
sneak 8y ago
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-05/why-china-has-detained-as-many-as-1-million-muslims-quicktake https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-05/why-china... If you are looking for inhumane behaviors upon which to base a boycott of China, there are several better choices.

Lidador 8y ago

Neuromancer, 1984, William Gibson.

shereadsthenews 8y ago

Yes, spending 30 hours on a train and getting 900 miles down the track sounds like a fate worse than death. -Confused American

mindslight 8y ago
CHI->LAX is 2000 miles in about 45 hours, so still about 40% slower than even US rail travel. I did appreciate the quip though.

ChuckMcM 8y ago

It is an interesting experiment but if it is really a tool for social change then the ability to correct one's score can't really rely entirely on things where the individual has no control. In the US getting a felony on your record is perhaps the biggest limiter to your future success that you can do. There are so many things stacked against you at that point. In California there is at least a process for getting some felonies expunged, which allows you to get back on to the playing field of life without that weight dragging you down. The article seems to make the case that the only way the victim could get their status restored was to come up with money somehow to repay debts.

gowld 8y ago
It's China. It's a tool for social control and keeping the Communist Party billionaires in power.
- chessturk 8y ago
  > the Communist Party billionaires It's so Orwellian. All of it.
  - Teknoman117 8y ago
    The joke goes - When the rest of the world took Orwell's 1984 as a warning, China used it as a model. However, that joke really isn't true, because all the countries took it as a model, it's just that China seems to be somewhat proud of that fact, whereas the rest tried to do it covertly.

AmVess 8y ago

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

deogeo 8y ago
Isn't there some constitutional safeguard against punishment without trial/crime? Someone more knowledgeable please chime in. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li... - insane.
LeanderK 8y ago
Are you serious? That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work? then this is really counterproductive.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  Similar things happen with unpaid child support, which absolutely doesn't help money actually show up for obvious reasons.
- iooi 8y ago
  That's the whole point. Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    > Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.

moosey 8y ago

> In order for him to clear his debts, Kong argues, he needs to be able to succeed at his new business – but that is hard to do if prospective partners and customers shun him because of his official status as a “deadbeat.” This is awful. Totally admit it, they shouldn't do it, etc. About the same as being a released felon in the United States. We also allow financial information to be pulled for background checks in the United States: > A check of a candidate’s background may include employment, education, criminal records, credit history, motor vehicle and license record checks. From https://www.hireright.com/background-check-faq/answers/what-does-a-background-check-consist-of/ https://www.hireright.com/background-check-faq/answers/what-... We already have what is functionally a social credit system in the United States, you'll find the people suffering under it getting harassed by ICE boarding greyhound buses.

gamblor956 8y ago
Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.
- ordu 8y ago
  It is a very american thing to say. I mean "it is bad, because it is regulated". Why? I suppose that social credit system of China is abused to make life of political opposition harder, but the article discussed is not about it. It shows case of a failed debtor. And for him it doesn't matter if social credit system is regulated or controlled by the market. What does matter for him is what impact this system has to his life. What opportunities to repaid his debt this social system closes for him? In some ways US credit system seems worse for me. The only way to get into it is to get a credit. But what if I do not like to pay interest rates? If I'm higly conscious and I can put down my impulses to buy things, to consume for the sake of consumption, to live on pennies while building a capital from scratch? It wouldn't work, because of this system. There are no way to demonstrate your credit reliability and trustworthiness to a system except paying interest rates. At the same time in China a person has non-financial ways to build up her social score. There are a bad sides, of course, like brutal punishments to those, who've hit negative scores, and it completely makes China's system unattractive for me, comparing with the US one. Seems that China's system is less tolerant for a risky behaviour, while US system just put you on rails of debt and gives you no other way. The latter seems less disgusting for me, but I'm glad that I have not to deal with any. And as outsider for both I really see no big decisive difference between them, they seem for me very similar.

Legogris 8y ago

Not at all defending the system here, but the article exaggerates quite a bit when talking about the trains. > In China, only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train. I have taken a similar train from Shanghai to Shenyang, it was also a bit north of 30 hours. Sure, it was not very clean and as everywhere you may encounter unconventional people but in general it's not at all the deadbeat caravan they paint it out to be.

chessturk 8y ago
Can I ask how recent that was? I'm a total outsider, but I've heard China's changed like crazy.
- Legogris 8y ago
  This was two years ago.
alanwong 8y ago
OP and Inkstone editor here. The slow train certainly isn't a deadbeat caravan, and I don't think the article suggests that. But it is unusual for a businessman to take this train instead of the high-speed options.
- Legogris 8y ago
  Thanks for the reply and for doing an article on this. Of course most businessmen would almost always take the high-speed option, but that is the case in Europe too. I did meet and talk to a man who owned a factory on the train, though, and I get the impression that middle-class people and students will still take it for trips in their free-time. Not necessarily because they can't afford other options and I think it's just untrue that "only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train". If that had been a quote by the subject, that is one thing, but here it's stated as fact. Don't you think there's more to the story than that his associates deduced his laolai status just by which train he came by?

caprese 8y ago

> If he had money to buy an airline ticket, they told the South China Morning Post, he should use it to repay what he owed. This line of thinking spans cultures and completely ignores the velocity or time value of money. It is extremely counterproductive and doesn't factor in what someone is trying to do. This punitive approach to all forms of spending and consumption hampers the productivity of nations. A simplistic analysis like this has no way to distinguish someone shirking their debts, and someone reinvesting in a future business prospect, or just unwinding! All humans want to unwind. People with lower debt ratios do the same thing. They don't always pay things down, don't always prioritize debts in any particular order. So this privilege shouldn't disappear just because someone is visibly having money challenges or merely known to have a creditor.

powerapple 8y ago
Apparently then a person found out he couldn't fly in airport, he paid back the money straightaway from his phone. True story.
- caprese 8y ago
  got to know your culture then

caprese 8y ago

I can't believe China copied our no-fly list too!

andreilys 8y ago

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

moosey 8y ago
But do you deny that felons have the same issue? How many felons do we have today that were punished by non-violent drug crimes, by design as far as I can tell. As a US citizen, I don't believe that pointing out my own faults is "whataboutism". It is self-criticism. "Whataboutism" is a defense. I am not defending China, what they are doing is awful, and we should work to make sure that the systems that we have in our country don't replicate it whatsoever. Basically, I am taking "Appeal to Hypocrisy" and flipping it on its head. For the most part, I do not have the ability, power, or vote to alter the course of Chinese politics. However, most people on here have the opportunity to do so in the US.
- pdonis 8y ago
  > How many felons do we have today that were punished by non-violent drug crimes, by design as far as I can tell. Yes, but the fix for this problem is not to stop allowing people to consider a past felony conviction when determining what sort of business to do with a person. The fix for this problem is to stop criminalizing things that shouldn't be criminalized, like non-violent possession or use of drugs.
- cinquemb 8y ago
  >However, most people on here have the opportunity to do so in the US. Good on you for fighting the good fight, I've abandoned all hope: I'll let our societies figure out where this winding path goes itself and hedge accordingly…
- sgustard 8y ago
  >I do not have the ability, power, or vote to alter the course of Chinese politics. Nor do Chinese citizens.

ataturk 8y ago

Some people at my company accidentally got termed and became "un-people." If that ever scales up to state or federal level it would be a living hell. Might as well revolt, you have no other option.

Animats 8y ago

"One creditor said the company was a sham from the beginning, with fabricated expenditure and cooked books." Looks like the system is working. If "barred from participation in the securities markets" by the SEC meant flying in coach and no landing slots for private aircraft, it might have more effect.

chaseha 8y ago
Along that line, if the US had a similar system, our current president would have been marked a "deadbeat" long before he got the chance to run for office (not saying the system is right, just saying)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

golemiprague 8y ago

How is it different to someone who is perceived as too far right in the US? We have already heard about people not being served by tech giants and banks just because of their political views. It never goes the other way around though. So in China it is the government doing it based on their values and in the US it is facebook or patreon or even regular banks doing it based on their values. In both cases it is an authoritarian decision by a monopoly or coordinated which the simple citizen got no control of and there is no any transparency to their actions.

_bxg1 8y ago

Studies, especially in recent years, have shown that punishment is not an effective way of improving on self-destructive behavior. Usually things like procrastination and substance abuse are irrational symptoms of emotional drain and hopelessness, and punishment exacerbates those problems. There was an HN post about it just the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411. Poverty and debt tend to also protract out from this kind of emotional bankruptcy. I hold some small hope that despite their lack of empathy, regimes will at least see the practical side of how ineffective this kind of policy is and how much it inevitably will hurt their economy, after trying it out for a while. Hopefully that lesson will be learned while it's still mostly contained to China.

_bxg1 8y ago
Also, keep in mind that China has an economy right now that is in many ways precarious, and big parts of that include corruption and debt. That doesn't make this right, but it makes it more understandable and contextual, and may bode better for the rest of the world's countries which aren't in that kind of situation (and for future China).
est 8y ago
The truth is simple: In China, banks are run by the government, yet there are shit ton of scams that borrows money from the party and never pays it back. In many cases the loan guarantor has no mortgage to payback at all. In this "social credit" system from Supreme Court, 90% of the victims are worthless loan guarantors involved in some kind of loan scam.
alanwong 8y ago
OP and Inkstone editor here. I think you raised a really, really interesting point. One thing I think many people overlook in China's social credit system is its stated goal – to create a system that rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior – and whether this system can really tackle self-destructive behavior you describe, like debt. And what's going to happen to people who're entering a debt spiral, and are as a result further punished by the system? Does the idea of social credit mean these people are simply abandoned?

coldtea 8y ago

This Kafkaesque system will be the end result of the constant increased collection of information from governments (and private businesses, which is the same, they're bed-pals, only after a certain size it's the businesses that wear the strap-on) everywhere. Technology is a multiplier. It can give us some irrelevant goods (basically, access to every article, news, movie, information without effort, in other words, without any real investment from us, or the ability to make some bureaucratic experience faster, while helping add tons of new bureaucratic requisites that weren't there before), but it mostly multiplies control, and thus dystopia.

jondubois 8y ago

The bankruptcy system in the western world is far too lenient; it encourages ruthless risk-taking behavior which benefits selfish people at the expense of those who are socially conscientious. This social credit system doesn't seem so bad when you put things into perspective. If our system punished selfish people more, as a conscientious individual, I would be better off. I don't buy this bullshit that selfish people drive the engines of progress; they don't drive it; they just capture the proceeds of progress. John D. Rockefeller himself admitted that "He who works all day, has no time to make money".

wonderwonder 8y ago
if you are born poor you miss out on the benefits that allow people to be successful. Take this site for example it encourages people to take risk and start a business. Worst that can happen if most of us fail is that we move in with our parents. If you grew up poor, maybe your parents don't have a place for you to stay if you fail so the ability to start a business is essentially closed to you as you don't have the safety blanket of your middle class colleagues. To claim that people who declare bankruptcy are selfish is quite a blanket statement and leads me to believe that you have never known poverty. Try being poor or even border line and breaking a leg or having a child get cancer. Try getting laid off for even a few weeks when over 40% of Americans cant even come up with $400 to cover an emergency.
- floe 8y ago
  I think the above poster is talking about corporate bankruptcy, while you are talking about personal bankruptcy. I agree with both of you :)

geuszb 8y ago

I definitely felt on the wrong side of a gazillion popup banners after that click

ColanR 8y ago
try the umatrix extension...I got nothing but nicely readable text.
alanwong 8y ago
I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm an editor of the website. What pop-up banners did you see? Would love to improve the UX for you and other readers here.
- geuszb 8y ago
  Opening up the site, I saw the headline load up, then something asking for notification permissions, then I'm not sure exactly what happened but many elements came on screen at the same time and the browser window became unresponsive (Chrome latest on a Samsung Galaxy S7). A subsequent visit worked out better, so I wonder if you have a problem on the first ever load of your site.
- yorwba 8y ago
  Since you are the editor, can you explain the relationship between SCMP and Inkstone? I noticed that this article was also posted on SCMP (with minor differences, curiously enough), so is Inkstone only a way to experiment with a different website design, or will there eventually be Inkstone-exclusive articles?

qlk1123 8y ago

Rumor has had it that there is a social credit system in China, and now this report reveals one part of it, which I believe is also just one small piece in the whole mass surveillance puzzle. As a Taiwanese, I don't know how the system works, nor can I feel the same as what Chinese citizens under that surveillance feel. However I can certainly say that, there must be an another part of the system that monitors "political activists" against CCP. Let's call this part as X below. Once you are in the blacklist of X due to reasons like criticizing Chinese government, you loses some rights implicitly, and the worst part is that X applies even if you are not a Chinese citizen. I have two examples here: 1. Taiwanese rights advocate Lee Ming-che held in China https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39428220 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39428220 Lee has been in prison since 29 March 2017, because he "ruined Nation Security." He was retained for months before he had a trial. 2. [Documentary] Self-censorship by Kevin H.J. Lee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpHFVZX2TuA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpHFVZX2TuA He criticized CCP and then he could not obtain a visa to even Hong Kong. In this documentary, many instances of such censorship are mentioned, and you can see how the atmosphere is under such surveillance.

powerapple 8y ago
"..... I don't know how it works ..... however, I can certainly say that , there must be ....." you lost me there.
- qlk1123 8y ago
  Just tried to be honest, but sure I should have put that in another way. Thanks for the feedback anyway.

mk926 8y ago

You guys do not live in China, you guys cannot understand that in China biggest problem is credit, many people not pay the debt deliberately, many people do not follow the rule. even the reporter herself do not live in China, she live in Hong Kong. I do not know if the social credit system is the right solution, but think more how many people lives in this country, and how law is weak in this country, and how mass the society that is not like western country.

duxup 8y ago

>In some places, telecoms companies even apply a special ringtone to the phone numbers of laolai as a warning. The ringtone as a scarlet letter...

wjmao88 8y ago

This is not the social credit system(edit based on OP comment: the dystopic social credit system that people are afraid of). This is just the list of discredited people("Shi Xin Zhe" list) published by China's court system. The whole list is published on http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/ You don't end up on the list for simply owing money (and it has nothing to do with social mis/conduct), you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe, and the court determining that you do have to pay and that you have the ability to pay based on your personal financials (or if you refuse to disclose your personal financials to the court), and you still refuse to pay. Hence why its maintained by the court system. The word "Lao Lai" that is quoted to describe them in the article is literally "long term renege".

frotak 8y ago
> you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe You mean like the summary judgments that can be leveled against debtors in the US by debt collection agencies... And which...ding your credit score. Which makes it harder to get credit...secure a loan...(sometimes) get housing...(sometimes) get a job Versus...institutional segregation and denial of services by the government. Definitely not even in the same ballpark and definitely an artifact of the "social credit system" as described by the authors of this article in other comments here as being an accumulated set of practices and programs in China - no single thing.
- wjmao88 8y ago
  No, I mean like how in the US the creditor can get the court to let them take your property (except certain exempt things like your primary residence) and garnish your wages.
  - shadowbannedtoo 8y ago
    There's only a few states that a primary residence is safe. Texas being one. Where I live, in CA, they can take pretty much everything. (Downvote me, or upvote please. Still not sure if Dong is mad at my ip.)

NoblePublius 8y ago

I don’t see how this is functionally different than having your wages garnished by a court order. Deadbeat dads are subject to the same financial scrutiny in the US. I get the feeling now that much of the criticism of this system is just Western media clickbait.

not_kurt_godel 8y ago
It is fundamentally different in numerous ways. Being in debt in the western world does not mean you are officially prohibited from certain forms of travel, for starters. Another huge difference is that China's system is based on factors other than financial dealings such as anti-government views. It is a much stricter, less fair, more authoritarian system in nearly every aspect. I find your whataboutism to be highly suspicious.
- NoblePublius 8y ago
  If you’re a deadbeat dad and your wages are garnished, you’re blocked from travel because you don’t have any money. And if you spend the money on travel instead of your kids, the Court would know instantly in states where the Court systems plug into your bank accounts. We already do this. The Chinese system just seems more efficient. Obviously this is a horror show in a country without due process, but I have no problem with debtors being denied niceties.
- dang 8y ago
  Your last sentence breaks the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing (and spying or shilling and all the rest of it). Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? If anyone wants further explanation, there is plenty at the links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892. Also, please don't use the tired trope of "whataboutism" on HN. It contains no information, and is a form of name-calling that breaks the site guidelines as well. More on that: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20whataboutism https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Your comment would be fine without that last sentence.

known 8y ago

Sounds like Chinese version of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw

bashwizard 8y ago

The dystopian cyberpunk world we know from movies, books, video games is getting closer.

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