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Google will open a new office complex and add hundreds of jobs in Taiwan
- rrggrr 8y agoHow long until the office is closed as a result of PRC protestations?
- TulliusCicero 8y agoProbably never? Google already has a significant number of employees in Taiwan (partially because they bought part of HTC).
- komali2 8y agoThey've had floors of Taipei 101 for about a decade now so I think this is unlikely.
- dgemm 8y agoPRC can dream all they want but they have no authority on the island.
- umvi 8y agoAt the end of the day, laws and authority are just a bunch of humans playing make believe with each other. It all comes down to enforcement. Without enforcement, laws and authority are meaningless. Take the USA and England as analogous to Taiwan and China. In the 1700s, England had a "One-England policy" and claimed authority over the US colonies. The US colonies disagreed. Some of the international community acknowledged the One-England policy. Some didn't. At the end of the day England tried to enforce their authority/laws and lost. Thus, England actually didn't have authority over the US colonies. I suspect something similar may happen someday with Taiwan (though hopefully with less violence than the American Revolutionary War).
- i_am_proteus 8y agoA key difference is that the governments of the British colonies in North America were officially installed by, and reported to, Britain. cf. the Taiwanese government, the KMT, which at one point controlled the mainland, but was pushed into exile on Taiwan by the communists. The existence of a free Taiwan threatens the legitimacy of the communist government on the mainland: the PRC, like most propaganda-fueled authoritarian regimes, does not like anything that suggests there's an alternative to their system.
- kajecounterhack 8y agoIt's also just not a good analogy because Britain didn't have missiles pointed across the strait, or a humongous military that Taiwan has even acknowledged they can't contend with. Diplomacy is the only thing that's kept Taiwan free in the current state of affairs.
- perennate 8y agoWell, the threat of nuclear war with the U.S. also helps with stability a bit.
- character0 8y agoAnd a US carrier group in the region
- rcao 8y agoAnother key difference is that Taiwan Strait is much narrower than the Atlantic Ocean.
- C1sc0cat 8y agoI think the PRC is less bothered about taking extreme measures than the UK was also less incompetent. If George III had had as big a bee in his bonnet about reclaiming the colonies as the PRC has about Taiwan I doubt that America would have remained independent - compare the Uk Army of 1770's vs Wellingtons Army circa 1812.
- notatoad 8y agoWhether they have authority on the island or not, they have pull with Google.
- sidibe 8y agoIt's strange the focus is on a speculative project that is not near happening from a company not very cooperative with China when there are lots of companies who are doing business as usual in China
- creato 8y agoReally? Among companies of its size, Google seems like the one China has the least pull over. Apple's entire business lives and dies with a supply chain in China. Microsoft runs bing in China, and probably other services as well.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoArguably, this news may be the most real confirmation that Dragonfly isn't going to happen. As Google likely would not increase it's investment in Taiwan while trying to get China on board with their return to China's search market.
- Mikeb85 8y agoTons of Chinese companies do business with Taiwan (Chinese smartphone makers and TSMC or Foxconn for example) without issue. China wants reunification, it's not like there's a full on blockade or anything.
- ssnistfajen 8y agoFor TSMC and Foxconn it's the other way around. They are Taiwanese companies with significant business ties in the PRC.
- komali2 8y ago>Last year, the project trained about 5,000 students in AI technology and 50,000 digital marketers. I feel like Taiwan represents a talent opportunity like no other. I dream of starting an engineering company there that is literally a clone of some upcoming business model, and doing nothing but capping the work week at 40 hours and guaranteeing 4 weeks vacation. I could snipe the best talent on hand in the country, which is at the very least equal to some of the best silicon valley has to offer, at nearly half the rates. Lord forbid we target foreign contracts and the company can pay near US rates. I'd pilfer everyone's engineering department ;) Overworked, underpaid, extremely competent was my experience of Taiwanese engineering. Google is good to step up in Taiwan - I believe it will pay dividends for them. I wonder what the Google work culture and salaries are like for their Taipei 101 office engineers? Last I checked it was about 2,000$/month for entry level.
- hocuspocus 8y ago> I feel like Taiwan represents a talent opportunity like no other. Yup. When I was in Korea I met a few Taiwanese that my employer poached from Asus, HTC, Benq, ... The state of their tech scene seemed quite dire. They would easily double their salary in Korea, for a pretty similar CoL. Eventually most got fed up with the Korean work culture and left for even higher salaries in... mainland China!
- z2 8y agoA lack of language/cultural barriers would work well for those who go to mainland China. 5-10% of Taiwanese currently reside on the mainland, due largely to China granting long term resident status (with full rights to work and public services) to virtually everyone. It's a masterstroke in increasing ties and knowledge transfer while undermining the island's economy through brain drain.
- kenneth 8y agoYup, that easily fits in the evil genius category
- 8y ago
- kenning 8y agoIn 5 days: "whoops nevermind"
- rangersanger 8y agoWhen I visited last AWS was planning to open a large data center near taipei with similar AI ambitions. It's a small island and it's interesting to me that these two giants are both headed there with similar projects in mind.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cowmoo728 8y agoI visited Taiwan recently and was shocked by the weird economics there. Rent, food, clothing, and labor are extremely cheap. Foreign goods and property are insanely expensive. It's clear there's wealth, as I saw several dozen rare BMWs and Audis, and some Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys. But then I read that the average annual salary of a new university graduate is $11,000 USD. It's also a very friendly place to foreigners. I'm surprised there aren't any enterprising people jumping from Shenzhen to Taipei now that Shenzhen is so expensive.
- goobynight 8y agoIf you're a Taiwan local that is able to sell the local talent in the form of offshore services for even 70% of US rates or even just have a remote job that pays well, you will have a Lambo/early retirement/whatever faster than you know it, because you will be able to save the entirety of your post-tax salary.
- jklepatch 8y agoAs someone who is doing exactly that I can confirm!
- paxy 8y agoThat's a common sign of huge wealth disparity. There isn't a middle class for luxury goods manufacturers to target, and the ultra rich can pay pretty much whatever you want them to.
- sinstein 8y agoI spotted more Maseratis than BMWs and there were already a lot of BMWs.
- lemerou 8y agoTotally agree with the rest of your answer but rent is definitely not extremely cheap, at least in Taipei (wich is where most of the jobs are). It can actually be argued that the property market in Taipei is a bubble.
- jimrhods23 8y agoI lived in Taiwan for a couple of years. The cost of living is also extremely low, which will benefit Google and many other companies that open offices there. A nice apartment in a great part of town was only around $350/month USD. I also had the benefit of making US wages contracting at the time.
- komali2 8y ago> I also had the benefit of making US wages contracting at the time. Ohhh, do tell more. This is my plan sometime over the next 5 years. Lived there as a broke English teacher in my early 20s, can't wait to go back as a working engineer.
- jimrhods23 8y agoI quit my job before I left with enough to last me about 6 months, in savings, just in case I needed it for expenses, etc. While I was there, I started consulting and found a remote gig that didn't really care where I was located. The only downside is that you are now 12 hours off from the EST timezone in the US. Morning meetings are now your night-time, which can be inconvenient, and you just won't be able to communicate during part of the day, but I was able to make it work. If you want to stay longer than 3 months, you will either need to study Mandarin (which I did) and get a student visa (you will need to find a university/school that will allow you to do this..which is pretty affordable) or do a visa run where you leave and come back (I think you can do this up to 2 years). I studied Mandarin for about a year and then traveled around Asia every few months for another year. It was a great experience. I wanted to do this since I was 19..but couldn't make it happen until I was 30. The only issue I had was that making friends with other expats was difficult. Most expats are in their early 20s and only interested in partying and drinking every night and teaching English during the day. If that sounds like a disaster, it is. Many of the English schools also aren't really picky about the teachers they hire, so you will get some people that shouldn't be anywhere near a classroom..especially with elementary aged kids.
- ilamont 8y agoI am glad to see Taiwan getting this type of attention from a major tech company. Taiwan's economy really needs an economic lift, after decades of brain drain and economic dominance by the People's Republic of China, the United States, and Japan. I am concerned, though, that this is Google's way of getting around issues of not being able to operate with a free hand in China, i.e. it will serve as a platform for developing Chinese-language services and be ready to release them in the PRC when they can do so without attracting negative attention. There's some history of this -- in the 90s and 2000s it was a common strategy among global corporations to launch and iterate ideas and products in Taiwan before moving them over to China. ETA: Another more depressing assessment: Google is placing a bet on annexation, as the PRC has repeatedly insisted it will do by any means necessary (see "Xi Jinping Warns Taiwan That Unification Is the Goal and Force Is an Option," https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/world/asia/xi-jinping-taiwan-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/world/asia/xi-jinping-tai...)
- CountSessine 8y agoAnother more depressing assessment: Google is placing a bet on annexation, as the PRC has repeatedly insisted it will do by any means necessary Unlikely. Taiwan is really no closer to annexation now than it was in 1972. The situation with Taiwan has always been left intentionally vague. The CCP doesn't have to suffer the humiliation of acknowledging their own impotence and illegitimacy in bringing a 'rogue province' to heel, and the US doesn't have to maintain troops in Taiwan. No one is happy, but no one has to go to war either.
- ilamont 8y agoSome differences between 1972 and 2019 include the U.S. no longer has a military presence in Taiwan, and the PRC has engaged in a vast modernization of the PLA, including its air force and navy (https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/less-visible-aspects-of-chinese-military-modernization/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/less-visible-aspects-of-chin...). Is it enough to carry out a successful amphibious assault on and occupation of Taiwan? Maybe not (see https://www.ft.com/content/44586804-195c-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21 https://www.ft.com/content/44586804-195c-11e9-9e64-d150b3105...), but Beijing is very adept at pulling other strategic levers to undermine Taiwan's economy, society, and democratic institutions.
- microdrum 8y agoGood for Google –– and smart to open in the sovereign democracy of Taiwan rather than China.
- patcon 8y agoInteresting. If I were Taiwanese, I would be very wary of the aspirations, and perhaps keep a #BlockSidewalk campaign idling in the driveway. I don't trust Google's ability to steward and govern a thoughtful city-building project that respects local agency and cares to tread softly around local power and autonomy
- KerrickStaley 8y agoThe article is not about Project Sidewalk or smart cities, it's about opening an office campus.
- patcon 8y agoI recognize that. But it's plainly a big connected operation, at least until we break it up. They operate via succession -- one subsidiary moves in and helps create space for the next. fwiw, you do people a disservice when you assume they don't know what they're talking about, just because you don't see the connection. If you took a second to offer me good faith and maybe presumed I'd read the article, then you could have responded with substance or asked a question, like a curious person might. Or not -- I wouldn't particular mind if you passed by. But your response was condescending and silly. What you said was obvious, and so the implication for others to follow was that I'd simply read the title and you were "calling me out". Basically, I feel very hackernews'd through our small interaction :/ Disclaimer: I've spent months on a civic research fellowship in Taipei. I live in Toronto. I've done community organizing in both. I work in tech. I have tons of experience with both places and topics -- not just an article.
- KerrickStaley 8y agoI downvoted the comment because you didn't connect what you were saying to the article, and so the comment reads as off-topic. Google has offices in dozens (if not hundreds) of cities around the world and has only launched Sidewalk in one of them, so it's not clear that a new Taipei office would lead to a Sidewalk launch there. I hope this makes sense. I unfortunately cannot remove the downvote at this point.
- d_burfoot 8y agoI think this is a great opportunity for some Asia-oriented Americans. I lived in Japan, and the quality of life there is amazing when compared to what we get in US cities. The problem is that most Japanese companies are terrible to work for. If you work for Google but live in a modernized Asian country, you can probably get the best of both worlds.
- anewguy9001 8y agowhats taiwain? (searching for this term returns 0 results. i'm in china)
- fattypouch 8y agoHey Google. If you need an american project manager to serve as a proxy between Taiwan and headquarters, I'm your man!
- sinstein 8y agoI think Taiwanese engineering is a great bunch of seemingly underpaid developers. I visited Taiwan for 2 weeks from India and had a few observations: 1. Food and transport are quite cheap. So cheap that almost everyone eats out for all their meals. 2. Everyone stays far from the office. They said the area around the offices is expensive but the rent I heard did not sound so high. Most of my friends in Mumbai, India already pay rent close to that figure and they get by just fine. 3. Consumerism is quite high. Almost everyone in the office had fancy clothes and gadgets which are usually considered signs of good wealth in India. My conclusion was that people are not paid a lot, and they spend a lot of what they make on clothes and gadgets but that is just the picture I could paint. Would appreciate some input from people who have more knowledge about Taiwanese culture.
- dennyqoo 8y agoAfter google acquired HTC's mobile department, the salary in google Taiwan is localized too. One day, the world-wide capitalist finally realized: "Wow, we can hire good engineer with pennies...in Taiwan."