8 ms·

I wouldn't say they derive most of their revenue illegally without more data, but regardless it's hardly alone. The ride-sharing services were the first of the

I wouldn't say they derive most of their revenue illegally without more data, but regardless it's hardly alone. The ride-sharing services were the first of the modern companies push this model of "implement first, work out legalities later". Many of the scooter- and bike-rental outfits have operated on similar profiles. Arguably the granddaddy of all of them was PayPal, which substantially strayed into banking territory without ever getting the appropriate accreditation. Honestly, it seems to me the way much of this legislation moves forward. I don't know that I love companies flouting laws, but when those laws are kept in place against public interest (thinking especially of the state protection of taxi services), it can be hard to muster any serious antipathy towards them.

randomacct3847 8y ago
Uber and Airbnb are completely different beasts. At least rideshare benefits both residents and visitors alike and taxis are universally hated for high rates and fees. How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? In markets with low housing supply they crowd out housing for permanent residents and create safety issues for neighbors. I would be pissed if I lived in an apartment complex with a steady stream of random strangers coming in and out because my neighbor rented it out on Airbnb. Residential zoning laws are in the public interest. A city that made it legal for any home, apartment, or condo to be turned into a mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all.
- wyattpeak 8y ago
  I'm not defending AirBNB, nor castigating it. I haven't thought enough about the consequences of their behaviour to have a strong opinion. You asked if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally,* not if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally and also weren't in the public interest. I offered examples. Perhaps my musing at the end isn't widely applicable, the only one of the services listed I've substantially used is Uber, but nevertheless AirBNB certainly isn't alone in their behaviour. * You said mostly illegally, but I don't know that that's even true of AirBNB.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  They benefit their customers (who have a much wider and often cheaper selection available than the old hotel industry) and their hosts (many of whom keep their finances afloat through AirBnB revenue, or have been able to enjoy life-changing increases in their standard of living - like sending the kids to college - because of it). It's detrimental to the neighbors, who have to put up with a stream of transients, parties, noise, etc; and of course to the existing hotel industry (though many of them are adopting AirBnB as a booking platform). Similarly, zoning laws are beneficial to resident homeowners and detrimental to renters, potential startups, real estate speculators. There is no uniform "public interest". Any significant policy will have some people it helps and some people it hurts.
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    When I look at Airbnbs in SF, NY etc they are regularly more expensive than hotels with none of the benefits of a hotel. Why should a city prioritize the needs of landlords and visitors over most of their constituents? Would love to see the number of mayors who love Airbnb. I can’t imagine there are many, if any.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      I don't use AirBnB for staying in SF or NYC (although I highly doubt that's the case for SF - a hotel runs you $200+/night here, but you can get quite decent AirBnBs for $70-80/night). I've used them for staying in Kirkland, WA; Amherst, MA; Santa Cruz, CA; Redding, CA; Gualala, CA; Carmel, CA; Morro Bay, CA; Kihei, Hawaii; Croatia; Sarajevo; and several other places. They're an absolute lifesaver there: in some of those locations, there are literally 1-2 hotels in the whole town, they are frequently fully booked, and they cost 2-3x an AirBnB. And I'd also doubt very many mayors like AirBnB all that much. My point is that interests diverge - there are some people who derive a lot of benefit from AirBnB, and there are other people who have good reason to hate it.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        I’m surprised Kirkland even has Airbnb’s. They seem to be almost illegal in next door Bellevue, but then again Bellevue has plenty of hotels.
- mrep 8y ago
  > How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? When I moved to Seattle a few years ago after college, I wanted to explore different neighborhoods to find out where I wanted to live. I found an Airbnb that let me rent out a persons mother-in-law house for $1000 for a month which is like 1/3rd of hotel rates and way more spacious because the alternative is that they would just let that space sit empty.
- dzhiurgis 8y ago
  > mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all. Become their drug dealer!
sandworm101 8y ago
Nope. Porn industry was first. Online porn sales bypassed thousands of local rules re when and where it could be sold. That was long before paypal airbnb or even google.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Amazon.com as well. In the beginning one of their biggest competitive advantages was that they didn't charge sales tax. Outside of tech - the history of Las Vegas is fascinating. It's a whole city built on nurturing industries that are illegal everywhere else. Many of the early casinos (1920s-ish) were also built by the Mafia with funding from the Mormon Church - there's one good example of capitalism allowing a group to reap the profits of sin without engaging in sin themselves. And of course, the modern Las Vegas Strip is actually built just outside of city limits because they didn't want to pay taxes to the city.
  - anarazel 8y ago
    > Amazon.com as well. In the beginning one of their biggest competitive advantages was that they didn't charge sales tax. Wasn't that basically the law of the land (until this year, due to Wayfair), based on the Quill SCOTUS decision?
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      My recollection was that Amazon started collecting sales tax many years ago, but apparently it was much more recent than that. They started collecting sales tax around 2011-2014 because many states passed explicit state legislation requiring them to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        As of mid-2018, just about all retailers have to collect sales taxes on their out-of-state shipments, presence or not. Funny how the law that allowed Amazon to grow so much has been unwound just as it stops benefitting Amazon... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/politics/supreme-court-sales-taxes-internet-merchants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/politics/supreme-court...

randomacct3847 8y ago

Uber and Airbnb are completely different beasts. At least rideshare benefits both residents and visitors alike and taxis are universally hated for high rates and fees. How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? In markets with low housing supply they crowd out housing for permanent residents and create safety issues for neighbors. I would be pissed if I lived in an apartment complex with a steady stream of random strangers coming in and out because my neighbor rented it out on Airbnb. Residential zoning laws are in the public interest. A city that made it legal for any home, apartment, or condo to be turned into a mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all.

wyattpeak 8y ago
I'm not defending AirBNB, nor castigating it. I haven't thought enough about the consequences of their behaviour to have a strong opinion. You asked if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally,* not if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally and also weren't in the public interest. I offered examples. Perhaps my musing at the end isn't widely applicable, the only one of the services listed I've substantially used is Uber, but nevertheless AirBNB certainly isn't alone in their behaviour. * You said mostly illegally, but I don't know that that's even true of AirBNB.
nostrademons 8y ago
They benefit their customers (who have a much wider and often cheaper selection available than the old hotel industry) and their hosts (many of whom keep their finances afloat through AirBnB revenue, or have been able to enjoy life-changing increases in their standard of living - like sending the kids to college - because of it). It's detrimental to the neighbors, who have to put up with a stream of transients, parties, noise, etc; and of course to the existing hotel industry (though many of them are adopting AirBnB as a booking platform). Similarly, zoning laws are beneficial to resident homeowners and detrimental to renters, potential startups, real estate speculators. There is no uniform "public interest". Any significant policy will have some people it helps and some people it hurts.
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  When I look at Airbnbs in SF, NY etc they are regularly more expensive than hotels with none of the benefits of a hotel. Why should a city prioritize the needs of landlords and visitors over most of their constituents? Would love to see the number of mayors who love Airbnb. I can’t imagine there are many, if any.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    I don't use AirBnB for staying in SF or NYC (although I highly doubt that's the case for SF - a hotel runs you $200+/night here, but you can get quite decent AirBnBs for $70-80/night). I've used them for staying in Kirkland, WA; Amherst, MA; Santa Cruz, CA; Redding, CA; Gualala, CA; Carmel, CA; Morro Bay, CA; Kihei, Hawaii; Croatia; Sarajevo; and several other places. They're an absolute lifesaver there: in some of those locations, there are literally 1-2 hotels in the whole town, they are frequently fully booked, and they cost 2-3x an AirBnB. And I'd also doubt very many mayors like AirBnB all that much. My point is that interests diverge - there are some people who derive a lot of benefit from AirBnB, and there are other people who have good reason to hate it.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I’m surprised Kirkland even has Airbnb’s. They seem to be almost illegal in next door Bellevue, but then again Bellevue has plenty of hotels.
mrep 8y ago
> How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? When I moved to Seattle a few years ago after college, I wanted to explore different neighborhoods to find out where I wanted to live. I found an Airbnb that let me rent out a persons mother-in-law house for $1000 for a month which is like 1/3rd of hotel rates and way more spacious because the alternative is that they would just let that space sit empty.
dzhiurgis 8y ago
> mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all. Become their drug dealer!

sandworm101 8y ago

Nope. Porn industry was first. Online porn sales bypassed thousands of local rules re when and where it could be sold. That was long before paypal airbnb or even google.

nostrademons 8y ago
Amazon.com as well. In the beginning one of their biggest competitive advantages was that they didn't charge sales tax. Outside of tech - the history of Las Vegas is fascinating. It's a whole city built on nurturing industries that are illegal everywhere else. Many of the early casinos (1920s-ish) were also built by the Mafia with funding from the Mormon Church - there's one good example of capitalism allowing a group to reap the profits of sin without engaging in sin themselves. And of course, the modern Las Vegas Strip is actually built just outside of city limits because they didn't want to pay taxes to the city.
- anarazel 8y ago
  > Amazon.com as well. In the beginning one of their biggest competitive advantages was that they didn't charge sales tax. Wasn't that basically the law of the land (until this year, due to Wayfair), based on the Quill SCOTUS decision?
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    My recollection was that Amazon started collecting sales tax many years ago, but apparently it was much more recent than that. They started collecting sales tax around 2011-2014 because many states passed explicit state legislation requiring them to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      As of mid-2018, just about all retailers have to collect sales taxes on their out-of-state shipments, presence or not. Funny how the law that allowed Amazon to grow so much has been unwound just as it stops benefitting Amazon... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/politics/supreme-court-sales-taxes-internet-merchants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/politics/supreme-court...