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It’s crazy to me that Airbnb is this massive company that derives most of their revenue from illegal services. What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely co

It’s crazy to me that Airbnb is this massive company that derives most of their revenue from illegal services. What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely comparable? Agree last thing I want to deal with is this feeling I’m not supposed to be there when I enter a random condo complex in a new city.

eschaton 8y ago
> What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely comparable? Uber
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  Uber was for awhile, but would argue now it’s become mostly regulated...drivers have to get the right TIC licenses, airports have official signage for rideshare. Airbnb to me still feels like the Wild Wild West (Uber circa 2013) and they take so little responsibility to make sure listings are legal per terms of whatever city it’s located in.
  - vkou 8y ago
    In fact, AirBnB take active efforts to ensure that cities cannot verify that their listings are legal. They actively resist giving cities information about landlords using their platform.
    - petre 8y ago
      It's not like the city can't factor the info about the owner from the address. They pay property taxes to the city, right? If a city council wanted a crackdown on illegal AirBnBs, they could compile a lust of properties every month and fine the landlords based on zoning regulation. They could also provide some kind of report form or telephone number.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Airbnb listings don’t provide addresses, which aren’t seen until they are long booked. You couldn’t just scrape them, you’d have to actually order and pay for each one whose address you wanted.
        coredog64 8y ago
        There’s nothing preventing a host from giving an incorrect street address. So even if an aggregator were to book rooms to find them, there’s no guarantee that the address would net them something.
  - ulfw 8y ago
    It isn't. They're still very much illegal in Hong Kong and other cities around the world and very much still don't care and still operate.
    - randomacct3847 8y ago
      It depends on the market, and in its most mature markets the company has worked with cities to make it legal and regulated. Uber has a tiny prescence in Asia at this point outside India having sold most of their biz to Grab. The biggest turnaround I’ve seen is Las Vegas. Up until 2016 or so they were the most aggressive as far as arresting drivers and the company shut down operations for years. Then a year later the airport has a dedicated floor to pickups, official signage everywhere, all hotels have dedicated pickup/drop off.
wyattpeak 8y ago
I wouldn't say they derive most of their revenue illegally without more data, but regardless it's hardly alone. The ride-sharing services were the first of the modern companies push this model of "implement first, work out legalities later". Many of the scooter- and bike-rental outfits have operated on similar profiles. Arguably the granddaddy of all of them was PayPal, which substantially strayed into banking territory without ever getting the appropriate accreditation. Honestly, it seems to me the way much of this legislation moves forward. I don't know that I love companies flouting laws, but when those laws are kept in place against public interest (thinking especially of the state protection of taxi services), it can be hard to muster any serious antipathy towards them.
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  Uber and Airbnb are completely different beasts. At least rideshare benefits both residents and visitors alike and taxis are universally hated for high rates and fees. How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? In markets with low housing supply they crowd out housing for permanent residents and create safety issues for neighbors. I would be pissed if I lived in an apartment complex with a steady stream of random strangers coming in and out because my neighbor rented it out on Airbnb. Residential zoning laws are in the public interest. A city that made it legal for any home, apartment, or condo to be turned into a mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all.
  - wyattpeak 8y ago
    I'm not defending AirBNB, nor castigating it. I haven't thought enough about the consequences of their behaviour to have a strong opinion. You asked if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally,* not if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally and also weren't in the public interest. I offered examples. Perhaps my musing at the end isn't widely applicable, the only one of the services listed I've substantially used is Uber, but nevertheless AirBNB certainly isn't alone in their behaviour. * You said mostly illegally, but I don't know that that's even true of AirBNB.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
ulfw 8y ago
Uber?
inferiorhuman 8y ago
What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely comparable? Uber? Bird? Lime? Lyft?
lugg 8y ago
ugh, uber? Not to mention, big pharma, alcohol, tobacco, pay day loans, pretty much all forms of loan sharking, gambling, insurance, financial industry, banking. I mean you can argue each of those til the cows come home but it's relatively equivalent, there are a lot of industries that solely thrive on the exploitation and subsequent legalisation of things that are quite arguably things that should be outlawed or at least regulated very differently than they are today or would be if they kept their lobbyists out of it. I'm not saying I think any of those things should be illegal either, just saying that the world is full of thes things. Airbnb and uber are just the latest who also happen to be silicon valley darlings.
duado 8y ago
You’re just seeing them at a unique point in their history where they haven’t yet bought enough lawmakers to make their revenue streams legal. Plenty of much bigger companies are well past this point.
bsder 8y ago
The issue is that AirBnB (and Uber and Lyft and ...) make the vast majority of their money in the very biggest markets--New York, San Francisco, etc. So, until those cities get sufficiently aggressive and simply stomp AirBnB flat, this kind of misbehavior will continue. Generally the secondary or below markets are ecstatic to have AirBnB and Uber, et al. as they are underserved by hotels and cabs and other things. However, you won't become a unicorn serving Urbana-Champaign, Harrisburg, Lubbock, Columbiana, etc. so the VC's are happy to keep turning a blind eye to the misbehavior.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  I don’t even think it would take a new law. A sufficiently ambitious prosecutor could make the case that AirBnB is the lead conspirator in a RICO, with wire fraud as the predicate offenses. The recent college bribery indictments were brought under that act.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

eschaton 8y ago

> What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely comparable? Uber

randomacct3847 8y ago
Uber was for awhile, but would argue now it’s become mostly regulated...drivers have to get the right TIC licenses, airports have official signage for rideshare. Airbnb to me still feels like the Wild Wild West (Uber circa 2013) and they take so little responsibility to make sure listings are legal per terms of whatever city it’s located in.
- vkou 8y ago
  In fact, AirBnB take active efforts to ensure that cities cannot verify that their listings are legal. They actively resist giving cities information about landlords using their platform.
  - petre 8y ago
    It's not like the city can't factor the info about the owner from the address. They pay property taxes to the city, right? If a city council wanted a crackdown on illegal AirBnBs, they could compile a lust of properties every month and fine the landlords based on zoning regulation. They could also provide some kind of report form or telephone number.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Airbnb listings don’t provide addresses, which aren’t seen until they are long booked. You couldn’t just scrape them, you’d have to actually order and pay for each one whose address you wanted.
      - coredog64 8y ago
        There’s nothing preventing a host from giving an incorrect street address. So even if an aggregator were to book rooms to find them, there’s no guarantee that the address would net them something.
- ulfw 8y ago
  It isn't. They're still very much illegal in Hong Kong and other cities around the world and very much still don't care and still operate.
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    It depends on the market, and in its most mature markets the company has worked with cities to make it legal and regulated. Uber has a tiny prescence in Asia at this point outside India having sold most of their biz to Grab. The biggest turnaround I’ve seen is Las Vegas. Up until 2016 or so they were the most aggressive as far as arresting drivers and the company shut down operations for years. Then a year later the airport has a dedicated floor to pickups, official signage everywhere, all hotels have dedicated pickup/drop off.

wyattpeak 8y ago

I wouldn't say they derive most of their revenue illegally without more data, but regardless it's hardly alone. The ride-sharing services were the first of the modern companies push this model of "implement first, work out legalities later". Many of the scooter- and bike-rental outfits have operated on similar profiles. Arguably the granddaddy of all of them was PayPal, which substantially strayed into banking territory without ever getting the appropriate accreditation. Honestly, it seems to me the way much of this legislation moves forward. I don't know that I love companies flouting laws, but when those laws are kept in place against public interest (thinking especially of the state protection of taxi services), it can be hard to muster any serious antipathy towards them.

randomacct3847 8y ago
Uber and Airbnb are completely different beasts. At least rideshare benefits both residents and visitors alike and taxis are universally hated for high rates and fees. How does Airbnb benefits residents of a city outside of landlords/slumlords? In markets with low housing supply they crowd out housing for permanent residents and create safety issues for neighbors. I would be pissed if I lived in an apartment complex with a steady stream of random strangers coming in and out because my neighbor rented it out on Airbnb. Residential zoning laws are in the public interest. A city that made it legal for any home, apartment, or condo to be turned into a mini hotel does not benefit the people that live there at all.
- wyattpeak 8y ago
  I'm not defending AirBNB, nor castigating it. I haven't thought enough about the consequences of their behaviour to have a strong opinion. You asked if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally,* not if there were other companies who operated substantially illegally and also weren't in the public interest. I offered examples. Perhaps my musing at the end isn't widely applicable, the only one of the services listed I've substantially used is Uber, but nevertheless AirBNB certainly isn't alone in their behaviour. * You said mostly illegally, but I don't know that that's even true of AirBNB.
- nostrademons 8y ago

ulfw 8y ago

Uber?

inferiorhuman 8y ago

What other multi-billion dollar co is remotely comparable? Uber? Bird? Lime? Lyft?

lugg 8y ago

ugh, uber? Not to mention, big pharma, alcohol, tobacco, pay day loans, pretty much all forms of loan sharking, gambling, insurance, financial industry, banking. I mean you can argue each of those til the cows come home but it's relatively equivalent, there are a lot of industries that solely thrive on the exploitation and subsequent legalisation of things that are quite arguably things that should be outlawed or at least regulated very differently than they are today or would be if they kept their lobbyists out of it. I'm not saying I think any of those things should be illegal either, just saying that the world is full of thes things. Airbnb and uber are just the latest who also happen to be silicon valley darlings.

duado 8y ago

You’re just seeing them at a unique point in their history where they haven’t yet bought enough lawmakers to make their revenue streams legal. Plenty of much bigger companies are well past this point.

bsder 8y ago

The issue is that AirBnB (and Uber and Lyft and ...) make the vast majority of their money in the very biggest markets--New York, San Francisco, etc. So, until those cities get sufficiently aggressive and simply stomp AirBnB flat, this kind of misbehavior will continue. Generally the secondary or below markets are ecstatic to have AirBnB and Uber, et al. as they are underserved by hotels and cabs and other things. However, you won't become a unicorn serving Urbana-Champaign, Harrisburg, Lubbock, Columbiana, etc. so the VC's are happy to keep turning a blind eye to the misbehavior.

bradleyjg 8y ago
I don’t even think it would take a new law. A sufficiently ambitious prosecutor could make the case that AirBnB is the lead conspirator in a RICO, with wire fraud as the predicate offenses. The recent college bribery indictments were brought under that act.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]