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> Of course, these were all explicitly installed by users who gave these apps access. But somehow people were mad anyway - maybe users shouldn't be given the op

> Of course, these were all explicitly installed by users who gave these apps access. But somehow people were mad anyway - maybe users shouldn't be given the option to make choices they don't understand? It's interesting to see the difference in attitude on HN towards Google and Facebook. Many readers on HN shared the media's outcry when it was "revealed" that Netflix and Spotify were given read/write access to users' messages if they had authorized those Messenger plugins/platforms. I'm not attacking your position--I wholeheartedly agree with it--it just seems like there's a double standard on HN when it comes to certain tech companies.

RhodesianHunter 8y ago
If I connect IFTTT to my Gmail to automate some aspect thereof I can reasonably expect it to have access to my emails. If I connect my Facebook to my Spotify so that I can log in with one account and maybe share music with friends, I don't expect Spotify to have access to my private messages. Obviously context is important, but I'm not seeing the double standard.
- o10449366 8y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the circumstances under which Spotify would have permission to read your messages are 1) if you use their Messenger app plugin 2) if you had connected to Messenger through Spotify's desktop app. I believe this feature has been deprecated for a few years now, though. Even if you sign up for Spotify using your Facebook account or connect your Facebook account to Spotify that does not give them access to your Messenger messages. It is my understanding that it required the user to opt into specifically connecting Messenger for that circumstance to occur.
- nindalf 8y ago
  The Facebook integration with Spotify allowed you to send messages and receive from within Spotify. Could you think of a way to implement this without giving the Spotify client access to those messages? What’s more, users explicitly opted in, giving Spotify permission to do so. [1] No reasonable person would use Spotify to send and receive messages after explicitly granting the client permissions and then claim “but I don’t expect Spotify to have access to my private messages” [1] - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17561784/django-social-auth-extended-facebook-permissions-like-spotify https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17561784/django-social-a...
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    At various stages of Spotify's life, Facebook login was required to use the service. I'm a long-time user, and I've learned about the messages feature from HN. It wasn't really even advertised in the UI, and not the reason I - or many other people - connected Facebook to it.
    - bestnameever 8y ago
      Oh wow you are totally right. It had never occurred to me that Spotify requiring Facebook to use the service was a means for them to gain access to your Facebook account.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Social logins is - and was, back then - a thing people are used to.
      - supermatt 8y ago
        i can’t tell if this is snark, but as an app developer, i have considered facebook login as a means for a relatively frictionless user experience, not as a way for me to gain access to a users facebook account.
        nindalf 8y ago
        No no, if you added social login to your app it's because you're evil. You want to monetize your users, selling their data like it's 2014. You're literally Cambridge Analytica. /s
        acct1771 8y ago
        But security-wise, it is the same.
        supermatt 8y ago
        Not at all. FUD. If you're going to make a statement like that at least come with some facts. There is a massive difference between me getting login permission TO MY OWN APP, and accessing a users facebook account, or masquerading as them on other apps.
sudhirj 8y ago
This is a bit more like app situation on Android - if I download an SMS app, of course I’d expect it to read my contacts and read write my messages. If I download a calculator, it has no business reading location, call logs, messages, contacts, full filesystem. That would make me outraged, even if I did technically click through permissions.
Semaphor 8y ago
I remember seeing a few comments similar to yours back then (and I agree with you).
aasasd 8y ago
HN is of two minds on quite a bunch of things, really. I'm chalking it up to different people coming and going―but it's weird, even if amusing, to see the comment section gravitate to opposite viewpoints on different occasions. Maybe there's a daily cycle of various worldviews prevailing in the comments―I guess here's a toy project for data scientists.
- DarkWiiPlayer 8y ago
  More than days, I'd expect it's a matter of time zones and schedules. Someone in the USA might have a different opinion on these topics than someone in Europe and also be online at different times.
wavepruner 8y ago
Defending Facebook in any capacity is currently outside HN's Overton Window.
craigsmansion 8y ago
What is now a long time ago, Google indexed the web properly. At that time it was an unparalleled feat of engineering. They solved scalability. They also managed to do this without sliding into "portal" territory and won their search dominance fair and square. FB never did anything but being at the right place at the right time and were pretty nefarious from the very start. If any innovation can be claimed to have come out of FB, it's new ways of large scale psychological manipulation. I suspect it's the memory of those early Google years that make some more lenient towards Google, although at this point, they really shouldn't be.
- angf 8y ago
  Your comment is wrong in so many ways. React, Cassandra, OoenCompute, PyTorch, GraphQL: where did these come from? Facebook. Facebook has had to pull off their own feats of engineering. It is a fact whether you like their product or not. I work for FB. I am leaving for my own personal reasons. It is not a perfect company. Your comment, however, is wrong and I am calling it out as such.
  - craigsmansion 8y ago
    I'm sure these are all fine pieces of software, and good on facebook for giving their smart people useful busywork to distract them from asking themselves the hard questions, but did any of these make possible the as of yet impossible and propel them to their current status? Because as things appear, FB was a myspace for grown-ups at a time when there was a need for such a service, that is, the right time and the right place, and technology-wise there was nothing extraordinary about the service itself. > It is a fact whether you like their product or not. I like their product just fine. I just wish more of them held their privacy in higher regard.
kerng 8y ago
I noticed that also, especially when it comes to Google, maybe less with Facebook. Criticizing anything Google and you will get downvoted. I think it's a reflection of how many Googlers are on here.

RhodesianHunter 8y ago

If I connect IFTTT to my Gmail to automate some aspect thereof I can reasonably expect it to have access to my emails. If I connect my Facebook to my Spotify so that I can log in with one account and maybe share music with friends, I don't expect Spotify to have access to my private messages. Obviously context is important, but I'm not seeing the double standard.

o10449366 8y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the circumstances under which Spotify would have permission to read your messages are 1) if you use their Messenger app plugin 2) if you had connected to Messenger through Spotify's desktop app. I believe this feature has been deprecated for a few years now, though. Even if you sign up for Spotify using your Facebook account or connect your Facebook account to Spotify that does not give them access to your Messenger messages. It is my understanding that it required the user to opt into specifically connecting Messenger for that circumstance to occur.
nindalf 8y ago
The Facebook integration with Spotify allowed you to send messages and receive from within Spotify. Could you think of a way to implement this without giving the Spotify client access to those messages? What’s more, users explicitly opted in, giving Spotify permission to do so. [1] No reasonable person would use Spotify to send and receive messages after explicitly granting the client permissions and then claim “but I don’t expect Spotify to have access to my private messages” [1] - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17561784/django-social-auth-extended-facebook-permissions-like-spotify https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17561784/django-social-a...
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  At various stages of Spotify's life, Facebook login was required to use the service. I'm a long-time user, and I've learned about the messages feature from HN. It wasn't really even advertised in the UI, and not the reason I - or many other people - connected Facebook to it.
  - bestnameever 8y ago
    Oh wow you are totally right. It had never occurred to me that Spotify requiring Facebook to use the service was a means for them to gain access to your Facebook account.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Social logins is - and was, back then - a thing people are used to.
    - supermatt 8y ago
      i can’t tell if this is snark, but as an app developer, i have considered facebook login as a means for a relatively frictionless user experience, not as a way for me to gain access to a users facebook account.
      - nindalf 8y ago
        No no, if you added social login to your app it's because you're evil. You want to monetize your users, selling their data like it's 2014. You're literally Cambridge Analytica. /s
      - acct1771 8y ago
        But security-wise, it is the same.
        supermatt 8y ago
        Not at all. FUD. If you're going to make a statement like that at least come with some facts. There is a massive difference between me getting login permission TO MY OWN APP, and accessing a users facebook account, or masquerading as them on other apps.

sudhirj 8y ago

This is a bit more like app situation on Android - if I download an SMS app, of course I’d expect it to read my contacts and read write my messages. If I download a calculator, it has no business reading location, call logs, messages, contacts, full filesystem. That would make me outraged, even if I did technically click through permissions.

Semaphor 8y ago

I remember seeing a few comments similar to yours back then (and I agree with you).

aasasd 8y ago

HN is of two minds on quite a bunch of things, really. I'm chalking it up to different people coming and going―but it's weird, even if amusing, to see the comment section gravitate to opposite viewpoints on different occasions. Maybe there's a daily cycle of various worldviews prevailing in the comments―I guess here's a toy project for data scientists.

DarkWiiPlayer 8y ago
More than days, I'd expect it's a matter of time zones and schedules. Someone in the USA might have a different opinion on these topics than someone in Europe and also be online at different times.

wavepruner 8y ago

Defending Facebook in any capacity is currently outside HN's Overton Window.

craigsmansion 8y ago

What is now a long time ago, Google indexed the web properly. At that time it was an unparalleled feat of engineering. They solved scalability. They also managed to do this without sliding into "portal" territory and won their search dominance fair and square. FB never did anything but being at the right place at the right time and were pretty nefarious from the very start. If any innovation can be claimed to have come out of FB, it's new ways of large scale psychological manipulation. I suspect it's the memory of those early Google years that make some more lenient towards Google, although at this point, they really shouldn't be.

angf 8y ago
Your comment is wrong in so many ways. React, Cassandra, OoenCompute, PyTorch, GraphQL: where did these come from? Facebook. Facebook has had to pull off their own feats of engineering. It is a fact whether you like their product or not. I work for FB. I am leaving for my own personal reasons. It is not a perfect company. Your comment, however, is wrong and I am calling it out as such.
- craigsmansion 8y ago
  I'm sure these are all fine pieces of software, and good on facebook for giving their smart people useful busywork to distract them from asking themselves the hard questions, but did any of these make possible the as of yet impossible and propel them to their current status? Because as things appear, FB was a myspace for grown-ups at a time when there was a need for such a service, that is, the right time and the right place, and technology-wise there was nothing extraordinary about the service itself. > It is a fact whether you like their product or not. I like their product just fine. I just wish more of them held their privacy in higher regard.

kerng 8y ago

I noticed that also, especially when it comes to Google, maybe less with Facebook. Criticizing anything Google and you will get downvoted. I think it's a reflection of how many Googlers are on here.