14 ms·

Australia has enough solar, wind storage in pipeline to go 100% renewables

215 points by chdaniel 8y ago

syntaxing 8y ago
What ever happened to the huge Tesla power bank that was installed? Did it work out?
- BLKNSLVR 8y ago
  There are a number of articles on RenewEconomy about its performance that explain it various successes and profitability: https://reneweconomy.com.au/?s=Tesla+Big+Battery https://reneweconomy.com.au/?s=Tesla+Big+Battery
- xbmcuser 8y ago
  It was extremely profitable for the company that ordered it which resulted in all these new orders that the article is talking about.
  - antt 8y ago
    It is also under cutting the price that gas fired power stations need to be profitable. Since South Australia doesn't have coal or nuclear baseline generation any more we may see what happens when a state goes 100% renewable pretty soon. The answer on the few hot days this year has been "plunging neighboring states into blackouts".
    - BLKNSLVR 8y ago
      under cutting the price that gas fired power stations need to be profitable. That sounds like a gas fired power stations problem, not a battery problem. In fact, it sounds like a good economic argument for the battery, and for more of them. The answer on the few hot days this year has been "plunging neighboring states into blackouts". Can you please point to some evidence of this? It doesn't sound like a logical progression to me. If South Australian's power situation was to cause black outs in New South Wales or Victoria, there would be a million fantastic articles about it. I don't know what 'the rules' are, but I doubt Australia's two most populous states would be too excited about agreeing to rules that would cause SA's power to be maintained at the expense of theirs. I'm also pretty sure that in 2018 SA was a net exporter of power to the East (that's a different metric, but somewhat related).
- Faaak 8y ago
  It's the Hornsdale Power Reserve: https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ Installed by Tesla to Neoen
- antt 8y ago
  An ant farting in a hurricane. It provides enough power to run he state for 6 minutes or so [0] [1]. Useful for peak lopping, but if batteries would be used to store renewables the bills would be about 20 times higher than they are now and Australia already has some of the most expensive power in the first world. South Australia is the most unhealthy energy market in the developed world, and several developing countries would be embarrassed by it. [0] https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-... current demand is 1300 MWh [1] http://theconversation.com/yes-sas-battery-is-a-massive-battery-but-it-can-do-much-more-besides-88480 http://theconversation.com/yes-sas-battery-is-a-massive-batt... 130 MWh of storage
  - BLKNSLVR 8y ago
    An ant farting in a hurricane. and then It provides enough power to run he state for 6 minutes or so Powering an entire state for 6 minutes is massive. That's not what it's designed for, however. From what I've read it's designed to be a 'smoother' in times when the power system is under duress. South Australia is the most unhealthy energy market in the developed world I think you mean all of Australia. The market is severely gamed by primarily the gas generators at times when members of the aging coal fleet trip during either the night or when there's little wind, and so gas is left as the saviour. There have been times that gas generators have intentionally left turbines switched off so that the electricity from the operating turbines is of more value, as well as ignoring advice of the Market Operator to have generators 'ready to fire up' due to predicted dips in generation from the rest of the market. The current government believe in 'the free market', which would ideologically allow gaming of the system by the few participants who can jump in at times of need. However, this is what's a significant part of the cause of power prices in Australia being some of the highest in the world, and thus resulting in some people not being able to afford their bills. Imagine, in 2019, having to go back to candles? What an age we live in. A government at the helm when people were having to go back to reading stories by candle-light might have some multi-generational difficulty repairing their reputation. So they've been feebly attempting to bring the generators to heel. With little success. (There's also a lot of validity in the arguments about poor building regulation resulting in poorly- and un-insulated homes where electricity is used to fill comfort void whether for heating or cooling or both. New housing estates in Australia are a series of snug-fit cardboard boxes with pitched roofs)
- taneq 8y ago
  It's there, quietly doing its job and covering surges in demand so that hugely expensive gas fired turbines don't have to be spun up. It's saved some stupid amount of money so far.
- jussij 8y ago
  The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) manages the electricity grid to which the Tesla battery connects and AEMO is reporting the battery works very well at helping them manage that grid. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/australian-energy-market-operator-likes-its-new-tesla-battery-quite-a-bit/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/austr...
- pedroaraujo 8y ago
  The Tesla batteries installed in South Australia are not used for keeping the city running just with solar, they are there to optimize the load and routing of energy through the entire region, to avoid outages when during sudden spikes of electricity usage.
- g8oz 8y ago
  It seems it did, at least in the realm of frequency regulation and with an attractive ROI to boot. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/teslas-battery-in-south-australia-breaks-stranglehold-of-natural-gas-industry/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/teslas-battery-in-south...
blakesterz 8y ago
I wondered what that "got" meant in this headline, the actual headline is a bit more clear "Australia has enough solar, wind storage in pipeline to go 100% renewables"
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
clomond 8y ago
As an observer following the space, it is fascinating to me how everything in a given electricity/energy market changes once a given technology (solar, wind, energy storage) becomes "economic". Or, in other words, the best/cheapest on balance option for delivering electricity or primary energy. Be aware that many current policies in Australia and vested interests are actively AGAINST further development of renewables. So all of this is actually IN SPITE of the regulatory environment, rather than because of it. It will be interesting to see how prices move given all this new volume that will be coming online in the next decade. Note for the curious: The reason the above is even possible is because solar and energy storage prices follow the same kind of principles / learning curve behind the proliferation of the microchip and Moore's law. While the curve and "speed" of cost reductions for renewables are no-where near as fast as MicroChips, I can only hope that this trend continues. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson%27s_law
- cal5k 8y ago
  For large-scale solar you need batteries, and batteries do not follow this kind of cost curve. Countries that are truly interested in sustainable energy production should be building nuclear power plants. France & Germany will come to deeply regret their decisions to decommission old reactors and not build new ones, since nuclear is an incredibly safe source of baseline power.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    > For large-scale solar you need batteries, and batteries do not follow this kind of cost curve. Tesla would beg to differ. Their entire EV market is made possible by better, cheaper batteries, and that stems from the popularization of smaller, longer lasting, power sucking smartphones.
    - skellera 8y ago
      That also depends on the availability of resources. Hopefully a battery technology that requires less scarce resources comes about.
Simulacra 8y ago
I worked on trying to get this solar updraft tower built in Australia many years ago, and it still breaks my heart we weren't able to make it happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWlP0knKQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWlP0knKQU
- jahnu 8y ago
  That was a really interesting project. What were the main reasons it failed? The one in Spain seemed to show it was feasible.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    A 1000m tower is expensive and long to build. We have never built something as high so far (tallest building so far is 828m).
    - jacobush 8y ago
      Crazy thought - could a mountain be converted? Build two tunnels, one vertical, one horizontal. Probably crazily expensive, but known engineering...
      - ekianjo 8y ago
        Not sure if we have experience building such vertical tunnels in mountains though? This would have to be much, much larger than your regular mine.
      - Simulacra 8y ago
        I like the way you think!!!
  - Simulacra 8y ago
    Cost. That was it. The project in Spain was significantly cheaper to build and was only a 50kw tower. The EnviroMission tower was going to be 200 MW facility. The benefits of the solar updraft tower are huge: Able to be built using readily available materials (concrete, glass, etc.) If a terrorist blows it up, just build another one. Tremendous tourism potential. The skirt/greenhouse could grow crops making the air denser and more efficient, and with a LOT of open land Australia would've been the perfect choice. Unfortunately it just came down to building cost.
roenxi 8y ago
reneweconomy.com.au is close to tabloid quality; the odds are good that they will correctly report the blindingly obvious but questionable otherwise. They are a few bars above an actual tabloid, I suppose, because at least they aren't trying to run human interest stories. They push a pleasant barrow in that it will be nice if renewable are the economically best option now; but that site is the last place to look if you want evidence that it is happening.
- ipoopatwork 8y ago
  Thanks. That explains the graph where both storage and production are in MW
antt 8y ago
It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). You need all that energy storage for when it's not sunny (like at night) and not windy and when you're in the middle of a decade long drought [2]. All things Australia is likely to get in the next 15 years. If you want power without CO2 you either go nuclear or you expect 90% of your grid to go offline about monthly. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-revealed-two-years-after-blackout/10310680 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-re... $90 millio for 100 MWh [1] https://www.aemo.com.au/ https://www.aemo.com.au/ current total demand ~23 GWh. [2] https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions
- mikeash 8y ago
  What does it mean for demand to be 23GWh? Over what time period? I didn’t spot that number in the link.
  - antt 8y ago
    The total demand for the last 30 minutes, you sum up all the individual state markets, minus WA which is on not connected to that grid.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      So that’s another way of saying 46GW?
      - antt 8y ago
        Depends. The one hot day this year Victoria and South Australia has large load shedding events so we don't know what peak demand looks like currently. But probably closer to 60GWh if you don't shut down industrial capacity on a 40C day.
        Jedd 8y ago
        This would be a day that solar power would - if you'll excuse the expression - really shine, right?
ipoopatwork 8y ago
Graphing storage and production in MW, side by side? The whole article looks like a joke after that.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Why not? That’s a valid and important metric for storage.
  - _Tev 8y ago
    Storage should be measured in MWh. When you measure it in MW (i.e. how much power it can generate _per second_) the important variable is for _how long_ you can do it - getting you back to simply using MWh.
    - Brakenshire 8y ago
      Yes, I understand the difference between power and energy. Both are important and widely discussed variables for energy storage.
rb808 8y ago
I really dont believe this for a second. https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/ https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australia... is a great website that shows the mix of current generation. Right now coal is running at 90%. The though that in 10 years time the whole country will completely switch energy source to new renewable sources that haven't even been built yet is a joke.
- diafygi 8y ago
  Hmmmm, so I work in renewables, and while I don't work in the Australian market, I would like to take issue with your assumption that a massive transition to renewables in 10 years is a joke. If you look at most utility procurement plans, the vast majority are renewables, and prices are only getting cheaper. They are getting so cheap that new solar and wind are starting to beat currently running coal. Also, beating existing gas on price is expected within 5 years. https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/12/03/plunging-prices-mean-building-new-renewable-energy-is-cheaper-than-running-existing-coal/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/12/03/plu... So the current behavior in the industry is that utilities are starting to close existing coal power plants and are expected to close existing gas power plants well before their lifespan is up simply because it's cheaper.
  - rb808 8y ago
    Hi! Yes I agree its entirely possible that renewables will make a big impact and that should be encouraged. I'm sure in Australia with enough backing they could get to 30% or even 50%. I'm sure you realize though that even 80% renewables has some huge challenges with storage. Its hard to guarantee power will always be there. There are a lot of hot nights with no wind. Combined with Australia having some of the cheapest coal in the world, such headlines are just click bait.
    - diafygi 8y ago
      Hmmm, but renewables + storage is set to compete for both peak and baseload by 2035. https://www.woodmac.com/press-releases/batteries-renewables-displacing-gas/ https://www.woodmac.com/press-releases/batteries-renewables-...
inam1990 8y ago
Revoke Article 50 petition: 713,686 people demand UK remains in EU as Theresa May begs for Brexit delay http://icoviral.today/2019/03/revoke-article-50-petition-300000-people-demand-uk-remains-in-eu-as-theresa-may-begs-for-brexit-delay/ http://icoviral.today/2019/03/revoke-article-50-petition-300...
intothemild 8y ago
It won’t happen, because people like Gina Reinhardt won’t let it happen. (She owns most of the Coal in Australia)
- nat8265639392 8y ago
  Iirc, she also has or had quite a bit invested in Australia’s media. How would I find out which companies are invested in the media and the cross over between it and mining companies? That would be something I want to read. I’m not saying that they uses that to influence public opinion. But I do worry that it could be that way. The media here loves going on about the ‘baseload’. What ever that means.
linsomniac 8y ago
I get really frustrated with politics surrounding fossil fuels vs. renewables. I feel like renewables are the future, will add a valuable skillset, and are very achievable. But then it feels like we have a significant number of politicians who won't push for renewables because they are holding onto this "climate change is a myth" narrative, and are getting money from fossil fuels. This is why we can't have nice things.
- kerbalspacepro 8y ago
  Politicians don't push for renewables because it doesn't get them any points with their constituencies. You can point to energy lobbyists as a reason for this, but it isn't necessary to do so. You can just ask the average citizen- "how much do you care?" and the answer is low to not at all (ignore the polls, look at their actual actions and behaviors).
youngtaff 8y ago
Other part of the equation is how do we reduce consumption e.g. moving to LED based lighting, natural cooling etc. The less energy we consume, the less energy we need to generate
- kerbalspacepro 8y ago
  You either have to build more efficient buildings or retrofit existing buildings. Most home/office energy expenditure is on heating/cooling/fridging/hot showers. Only 10% is based on lighting [1]. The best way to tackle cooling/heating is by improving insulation, but unfortunately, there is little ability/reason to. Those that would get the most utility out of it are poor and therefore cannot afford it. Those who can afford it are rich, and therefore don't care about a few dollars lost to heating/cooling the outside air. Even if the rich do care, it often isn't worth the emotional/mental hassle of having massive construction done to your abode. [1]https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/ https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/
  - youngtaff 8y ago
    Depends where you are… in the UK domestic electricity consumption fell by 2.4% between 2016 and 2017 due to increased efficiency lighting / appliance efficiency [1] There was a noticeable decrease in our personal electricity consumption when we switched to LED bulbs (our heating and hot water are gas) [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729317/Energy_Consumption_in_the_UK__ECUK__2018.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Consider switching your heating and hot water to heat pumps.
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Sounds nice but the reality is that demand for energy consistently grows faster than our ability to conserve energy. The challenge that is being met with the deployment of clean energy technologies is meeting that demand in a sustainable way. It's a good thing; cheap clean energy unlocks economic growth. Instead of strangling ambition, we need to empower it. The more clean energy we consume, the better. This needs to be a growth market and it is. You can bicker over the timelines when coal is switched off permanently and lots of people seem to argue that the timeline in this article is a bit optimistic but the reality is that there's lot of growth in this sector with year on year increases in deployed capacity, price drops, etc.
k__ 8y ago
I don't understand why so many people insist on using fossils. On the one hand, "the west" is hating on Russia and the middle east for whatever reasons, on the other hand, they pour money into them like there is no tomorrow.
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Who is "so many people"? From my view, 95% of the people I know (in a very liberal area, btw) don't consider their carbon footprint at all. They don't want to give up cheeseburgers, fancy cars (aka 2 ton wheelchairs), or living in their specific way. The idea that I want to bike to work, for health and emissions, is met with: "Wow, you're taking your life into your hands whenever you don't drive a car".
southern_cross 8y ago
No doubt yet another article about renewables which ignores the fact that nameplate capacity is not at all the same as average actual capacity. To wit, average actual capacity is often only about 1/4 of nameplate capacity. So take any power generation numbers quoted here and divide by four and you are probably much closer to the actual truth of the situation.
schappim 8y ago
We may have the renewables, but sadly we don’t have the investment in the network to support the transmission of these renewables.

215 points by chdaniel 8y ago

syntaxing 8y ago

What ever happened to the huge Tesla power bank that was installed? Did it work out?

BLKNSLVR 8y ago
There are a number of articles on RenewEconomy about its performance that explain it various successes and profitability: https://reneweconomy.com.au/?s=Tesla+Big+Battery https://reneweconomy.com.au/?s=Tesla+Big+Battery
xbmcuser 8y ago
It was extremely profitable for the company that ordered it which resulted in all these new orders that the article is talking about.
- antt 8y ago
  It is also under cutting the price that gas fired power stations need to be profitable. Since South Australia doesn't have coal or nuclear baseline generation any more we may see what happens when a state goes 100% renewable pretty soon. The answer on the few hot days this year has been "plunging neighboring states into blackouts".
  - BLKNSLVR 8y ago
    under cutting the price that gas fired power stations need to be profitable. That sounds like a gas fired power stations problem, not a battery problem. In fact, it sounds like a good economic argument for the battery, and for more of them. The answer on the few hot days this year has been "plunging neighboring states into blackouts". Can you please point to some evidence of this? It doesn't sound like a logical progression to me. If South Australian's power situation was to cause black outs in New South Wales or Victoria, there would be a million fantastic articles about it. I don't know what 'the rules' are, but I doubt Australia's two most populous states would be too excited about agreeing to rules that would cause SA's power to be maintained at the expense of theirs. I'm also pretty sure that in 2018 SA was a net exporter of power to the East (that's a different metric, but somewhat related).
Faaak 8y ago
It's the Hornsdale Power Reserve: https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ Installed by Tesla to Neoen
antt 8y ago
An ant farting in a hurricane. It provides enough power to run he state for 6 minutes or so [0] [1]. Useful for peak lopping, but if batteries would be used to store renewables the bills would be about 20 times higher than they are now and Australia already has some of the most expensive power in the first world. South Australia is the most unhealthy energy market in the developed world, and several developing countries would be embarrassed by it. [0] https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-... current demand is 1300 MWh [1] http://theconversation.com/yes-sas-battery-is-a-massive-battery-but-it-can-do-much-more-besides-88480 http://theconversation.com/yes-sas-battery-is-a-massive-batt... 130 MWh of storage
- BLKNSLVR 8y ago
  An ant farting in a hurricane. and then It provides enough power to run he state for 6 minutes or so Powering an entire state for 6 minutes is massive. That's not what it's designed for, however. From what I've read it's designed to be a 'smoother' in times when the power system is under duress. South Australia is the most unhealthy energy market in the developed world I think you mean all of Australia. The market is severely gamed by primarily the gas generators at times when members of the aging coal fleet trip during either the night or when there's little wind, and so gas is left as the saviour. There have been times that gas generators have intentionally left turbines switched off so that the electricity from the operating turbines is of more value, as well as ignoring advice of the Market Operator to have generators 'ready to fire up' due to predicted dips in generation from the rest of the market. The current government believe in 'the free market', which would ideologically allow gaming of the system by the few participants who can jump in at times of need. However, this is what's a significant part of the cause of power prices in Australia being some of the highest in the world, and thus resulting in some people not being able to afford their bills. Imagine, in 2019, having to go back to candles? What an age we live in. A government at the helm when people were having to go back to reading stories by candle-light might have some multi-generational difficulty repairing their reputation. So they've been feebly attempting to bring the generators to heel. With little success. (There's also a lot of validity in the arguments about poor building regulation resulting in poorly- and un-insulated homes where electricity is used to fill comfort void whether for heating or cooling or both. New housing estates in Australia are a series of snug-fit cardboard boxes with pitched roofs)
taneq 8y ago
It's there, quietly doing its job and covering surges in demand so that hugely expensive gas fired turbines don't have to be spun up. It's saved some stupid amount of money so far.
jussij 8y ago
The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) manages the electricity grid to which the Tesla battery connects and AEMO is reporting the battery works very well at helping them manage that grid. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/australian-energy-market-operator-likes-its-new-tesla-battery-quite-a-bit/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/austr...
pedroaraujo 8y ago
The Tesla batteries installed in South Australia are not used for keeping the city running just with solar, they are there to optimize the load and routing of energy through the entire region, to avoid outages when during sudden spikes of electricity usage.
g8oz 8y ago
It seems it did, at least in the realm of frequency regulation and with an attractive ROI to boot. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/teslas-battery-in-south-australia-breaks-stranglehold-of-natural-gas-industry/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/teslas-battery-in-south...

blakesterz 8y ago

I wondered what that "got" meant in this headline, the actual headline is a bit more clear "Australia has enough solar, wind storage in pipeline to go 100% renewables"

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

clomond 8y ago

As an observer following the space, it is fascinating to me how everything in a given electricity/energy market changes once a given technology (solar, wind, energy storage) becomes "economic". Or, in other words, the best/cheapest on balance option for delivering electricity or primary energy. Be aware that many current policies in Australia and vested interests are actively AGAINST further development of renewables. So all of this is actually IN SPITE of the regulatory environment, rather than because of it. It will be interesting to see how prices move given all this new volume that will be coming online in the next decade. Note for the curious: The reason the above is even possible is because solar and energy storage prices follow the same kind of principles / learning curve behind the proliferation of the microchip and Moore's law. While the curve and "speed" of cost reductions for renewables are no-where near as fast as MicroChips, I can only hope that this trend continues. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson%27s_law

cal5k 8y ago
For large-scale solar you need batteries, and batteries do not follow this kind of cost curve. Countries that are truly interested in sustainable energy production should be building nuclear power plants. France & Germany will come to deeply regret their decisions to decommission old reactors and not build new ones, since nuclear is an incredibly safe source of baseline power.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  > For large-scale solar you need batteries, and batteries do not follow this kind of cost curve. Tesla would beg to differ. Their entire EV market is made possible by better, cheaper batteries, and that stems from the popularization of smaller, longer lasting, power sucking smartphones.
  - skellera 8y ago
    That also depends on the availability of resources. Hopefully a battery technology that requires less scarce resources comes about.

Simulacra 8y ago

I worked on trying to get this solar updraft tower built in Australia many years ago, and it still breaks my heart we weren't able to make it happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWlP0knKQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWlP0knKQU

jahnu 8y ago
That was a really interesting project. What were the main reasons it failed? The one in Spain seemed to show it was feasible.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  A 1000m tower is expensive and long to build. We have never built something as high so far (tallest building so far is 828m).
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Crazy thought - could a mountain be converted? Build two tunnels, one vertical, one horizontal. Probably crazily expensive, but known engineering...
    - ekianjo 8y ago
      Not sure if we have experience building such vertical tunnels in mountains though? This would have to be much, much larger than your regular mine.
    - Simulacra 8y ago
      I like the way you think!!!
- Simulacra 8y ago
  Cost. That was it. The project in Spain was significantly cheaper to build and was only a 50kw tower. The EnviroMission tower was going to be 200 MW facility. The benefits of the solar updraft tower are huge: Able to be built using readily available materials (concrete, glass, etc.) If a terrorist blows it up, just build another one. Tremendous tourism potential. The skirt/greenhouse could grow crops making the air denser and more efficient, and with a LOT of open land Australia would've been the perfect choice. Unfortunately it just came down to building cost.

roenxi 8y ago

reneweconomy.com.au is close to tabloid quality; the odds are good that they will correctly report the blindingly obvious but questionable otherwise. They are a few bars above an actual tabloid, I suppose, because at least they aren't trying to run human interest stories. They push a pleasant barrow in that it will be nice if renewable are the economically best option now; but that site is the last place to look if you want evidence that it is happening.

ipoopatwork 8y ago
Thanks. That explains the graph where both storage and production are in MW

antt 8y ago

It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). You need all that energy storage for when it's not sunny (like at night) and not windy and when you're in the middle of a decade long drought [2]. All things Australia is likely to get in the next 15 years. If you want power without CO2 you either go nuclear or you expect 90% of your grid to go offline about monthly. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-revealed-two-years-after-blackout/10310680 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-re... $90 millio for 100 MWh [1] https://www.aemo.com.au/ https://www.aemo.com.au/ current total demand ~23 GWh. [2] https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions

mikeash 8y ago
What does it mean for demand to be 23GWh? Over what time period? I didn’t spot that number in the link.
- antt 8y ago
  The total demand for the last 30 minutes, you sum up all the individual state markets, minus WA which is on not connected to that grid.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    So that’s another way of saying 46GW?
    - antt 8y ago
      Depends. The one hot day this year Victoria and South Australia has large load shedding events so we don't know what peak demand looks like currently. But probably closer to 60GWh if you don't shut down industrial capacity on a 40C day.
      - Jedd 8y ago
        This would be a day that solar power would - if you'll excuse the expression - really shine, right?

ipoopatwork 8y ago

Graphing storage and production in MW, side by side? The whole article looks like a joke after that.

Brakenshire 8y ago
Why not? That’s a valid and important metric for storage.
- _Tev 8y ago
  Storage should be measured in MWh. When you measure it in MW (i.e. how much power it can generate _per second_) the important variable is for _how long_ you can do it - getting you back to simply using MWh.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    Yes, I understand the difference between power and energy. Both are important and widely discussed variables for energy storage.

rb808 8y ago

I really dont believe this for a second. https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/ https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australia... is a great website that shows the mix of current generation. Right now coal is running at 90%. The though that in 10 years time the whole country will completely switch energy source to new renewable sources that haven't even been built yet is a joke.

diafygi 8y ago
Hmmmm, so I work in renewables, and while I don't work in the Australian market, I would like to take issue with your assumption that a massive transition to renewables in 10 years is a joke. If you look at most utility procurement plans, the vast majority are renewables, and prices are only getting cheaper. They are getting so cheap that new solar and wind are starting to beat currently running coal. Also, beating existing gas on price is expected within 5 years. https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/12/03/plunging-prices-mean-building-new-renewable-energy-is-cheaper-than-running-existing-coal/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/12/03/plu... So the current behavior in the industry is that utilities are starting to close existing coal power plants and are expected to close existing gas power plants well before their lifespan is up simply because it's cheaper.
- rb808 8y ago
  Hi! Yes I agree its entirely possible that renewables will make a big impact and that should be encouraged. I'm sure in Australia with enough backing they could get to 30% or even 50%. I'm sure you realize though that even 80% renewables has some huge challenges with storage. Its hard to guarantee power will always be there. There are a lot of hot nights with no wind. Combined with Australia having some of the cheapest coal in the world, such headlines are just click bait.
  - diafygi 8y ago
    Hmmm, but renewables + storage is set to compete for both peak and baseload by 2035. https://www.woodmac.com/press-releases/batteries-renewables-displacing-gas/ https://www.woodmac.com/press-releases/batteries-renewables-...

inam1990 8y ago

Revoke Article 50 petition: 713,686 people demand UK remains in EU as Theresa May begs for Brexit delay http://icoviral.today/2019/03/revoke-article-50-petition-300000-people-demand-uk-remains-in-eu-as-theresa-may-begs-for-brexit-delay/ http://icoviral.today/2019/03/revoke-article-50-petition-300...

intothemild 8y ago

It won’t happen, because people like Gina Reinhardt won’t let it happen. (She owns most of the Coal in Australia)

nat8265639392 8y ago
Iirc, she also has or had quite a bit invested in Australia’s media. How would I find out which companies are invested in the media and the cross over between it and mining companies? That would be something I want to read. I’m not saying that they uses that to influence public opinion. But I do worry that it could be that way. The media here loves going on about the ‘baseload’. What ever that means.

linsomniac 8y ago

I get really frustrated with politics surrounding fossil fuels vs. renewables. I feel like renewables are the future, will add a valuable skillset, and are very achievable. But then it feels like we have a significant number of politicians who won't push for renewables because they are holding onto this "climate change is a myth" narrative, and are getting money from fossil fuels. This is why we can't have nice things.

kerbalspacepro 8y ago
Politicians don't push for renewables because it doesn't get them any points with their constituencies. You can point to energy lobbyists as a reason for this, but it isn't necessary to do so. You can just ask the average citizen- "how much do you care?" and the answer is low to not at all (ignore the polls, look at their actual actions and behaviors).

youngtaff 8y ago

Other part of the equation is how do we reduce consumption e.g. moving to LED based lighting, natural cooling etc. The less energy we consume, the less energy we need to generate

kerbalspacepro 8y ago
You either have to build more efficient buildings or retrofit existing buildings. Most home/office energy expenditure is on heating/cooling/fridging/hot showers. Only 10% is based on lighting [1]. The best way to tackle cooling/heating is by improving insulation, but unfortunately, there is little ability/reason to. Those that would get the most utility out of it are poor and therefore cannot afford it. Those who can afford it are rich, and therefore don't care about a few dollars lost to heating/cooling the outside air. Even if the rich do care, it often isn't worth the emotional/mental hassle of having massive construction done to your abode. [1]https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/ https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/
- youngtaff 8y ago
  Depends where you are… in the UK domestic electricity consumption fell by 2.4% between 2016 and 2017 due to increased efficiency lighting / appliance efficiency [1] There was a noticeable decrease in our personal electricity consumption when we switched to LED bulbs (our heating and hot water are gas) [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729317/Energy_Consumption_in_the_UK__ECUK__2018.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Consider switching your heating and hot water to heat pumps.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Sounds nice but the reality is that demand for energy consistently grows faster than our ability to conserve energy. The challenge that is being met with the deployment of clean energy technologies is meeting that demand in a sustainable way. It's a good thing; cheap clean energy unlocks economic growth. Instead of strangling ambition, we need to empower it. The more clean energy we consume, the better. This needs to be a growth market and it is. You can bicker over the timelines when coal is switched off permanently and lots of people seem to argue that the timeline in this article is a bit optimistic but the reality is that there's lot of growth in this sector with year on year increases in deployed capacity, price drops, etc.

k__ 8y ago

I don't understand why so many people insist on using fossils. On the one hand, "the west" is hating on Russia and the middle east for whatever reasons, on the other hand, they pour money into them like there is no tomorrow.

WhompingWindows 8y ago
Who is "so many people"? From my view, 95% of the people I know (in a very liberal area, btw) don't consider their carbon footprint at all. They don't want to give up cheeseburgers, fancy cars (aka 2 ton wheelchairs), or living in their specific way. The idea that I want to bike to work, for health and emissions, is met with: "Wow, you're taking your life into your hands whenever you don't drive a car".

southern_cross 8y ago

No doubt yet another article about renewables which ignores the fact that nameplate capacity is not at all the same as average actual capacity. To wit, average actual capacity is often only about 1/4 of nameplate capacity. So take any power generation numbers quoted here and divide by four and you are probably much closer to the actual truth of the situation.

schappim 8y ago

We may have the renewables, but sadly we don’t have the investment in the network to support the transmission of these renewables.