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U.S. Firms Are Helping Build China’s Orwellian State

280 points by malloryerik 8y ago

nilskidoo 8y ago
The trio of global trade treaties, TISA, TTIP and TPP had small writing permitting larger corporations to ignore or even rewrite international laws should said laws promote regulations. They also had a clause, as Assange himself wrote about, where if a government was doing something which one of these corporations could profit from, then the government was no longer permitted to pursue, lest they be sanctioned and embargoed by every other participating nation-state. I've been saying all along, the deals are dead in name only. We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments.
- Escolte 8y ago
  And it all has a name: Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism We're actively transfering national sovereignty in chunks to organizations that can by design, as their sole purpose is to make money, turn against the interests of the people of a country in a switch.
  - MultusSalus 8y ago
    I don’t think that Wikipedia article is about the same topic.
  - arvinsim 8y ago
    I think what you mean is Corporatocracy or Plutocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy
- deogeo 8y ago
  > where if a government was doing something which one of these corporations could profit from, then the government was no longer permitted to pursue, I knew those 'trade' deals were full of the most awful stuff, but didn't know about this - I'd be grateful for some kind of source.
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    This is as good a starting point as any: https://wikileaks.org/ttip/ https://wikileaks.org/ttip/
    - deogeo 8y ago
      Could you narrow it down for me? There's some shady looking text in the State-owned Enterprise section, but the legalese is difficult to pierce.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Whenever I see stuff like this, all I can do is choose to believe that concentrated power will always eventually crumble under its own fragility. That's how it's worked so far. AI may change that equation one day, but one has to be able to sleep at night.
  - devoply 8y ago
    No it hasn't concentration of power has led to violence and revolution... at the very least to organized labor. Maybe it makes systems with certain structures fragile, like a despot but we don't have systems like these are are inherently fragile. Delusional to think that things magically fix themselves. AI consolidates power and makes revolt even more difficult once it's realized as something completely automated. China might collapse under its own weight as it does not have robust systems and the West is looking to hurt its economy to further cause instability, but corporatism elsewhere continues to grow stronger.
    - _bxg1 8y ago
      > revolution...organized labor Precisely. The masses have always been able to, eventually, usurp the few. The thing that's made democratic nations like the U.S. so successful is that they harness the power of the many. A diverse system is much more fault-tolerant than a centralized one. The minds and wills of a free populace, competing but also cooperating, have always been stronger than the minds of a minority which controls a populace. What's best for people has traditionally been aligned with what's effective, in this respect. Empires always fall. But, yes, AI could change that. We'll see how it plays out.
      - meruru 8y ago
        It's not AI that's going to change that, it's mass surveillance and ubiquitous proprietary software. AI may contribute to it, but it's the fact that we've given away control over our life and our society that's the real issue.
        _bxg1 8y ago
- HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
  We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments. I have a better relationship with corporations more than governments. A corporation has never harassed me at an airport when trying to leave. If I don't like MacDonalds I can... stop eating at MacDonalds. If I don't like the services the state provides I have to physically remove myself.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    If you don't like Google and Apple you can't stop using both of them. If you don't like your local ISP you probably can't stop using it. The free market only gives consumers power over corporations when those consumers - through democracy - keep them from amassing too much power via regulatory bodies. Some people act like the government is the threat, but in a democracy the government is the only thing that truly gives you any power.
    - lamarpye 8y ago
      I don't agree. Which is more likely for you to end up in jail? Not buying an iPhone or stop paying your taxes?
      - nilskidoo 8y ago
        I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. And debtors prisons are still a thing: https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/ending-modern-day-debtors-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/...
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I don’t understand why this sort of thing doesn’t permit US citizens to seek asylum as political refugees in slightly less fckdup countries.
- frozenport 8y ago
  TPP was an anti-China policy
- kmlx 8y ago
  "as Assange himself wrote about" I don't believe a word of this KGB/FSB agent. "We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments." Considering how awful governments are, it just seems natural. At least with a corporation I can buy stock, I can attend shareholder meetings. With governments I have to wait 4 years or longer to choose between crap and more crap. That's why I think more and more people prefer Google over the government of the day. Without fixing democracy's major faults, more corps will gain more and more power.
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    WL hosts over half a million docs pertaining to the Russian government, and Assange's mentor Gavin MacFadyen was banned from entering Russia under any circumstances for the last 20 or 30 years of his life, but sure. And...the OP concerns US firms building China's Orwellian state. Literally contributing to "how awful governments are".
    - fifnir 8y ago
      I had a (admittedly brief look) on WL's site and couldn't find anything with regards to Russia's gov., Would you please show me what you mean ?
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    Stocks and shareholder meetings are artificial constructs defined by governments. Antitrust, trade secrets, prosecution of insider trading, consumer protection. Without a government you have none of these things; without these things, the free market reverts to feudal lords battling it out by any means necessary.
    - fifnir 8y ago
      Well put, it's really shocking to read some of those wild corporation-worshiping views on HN.
- deleted 8y ago
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thedudeabides5 8y ago
"We connect the dots among politics, places, and people." I feel like this is all my fault
superkuh 8y ago
Not just China's. But as western nations (Germany re: tor, Aus/NZ re: censorship) rush to implement their own orwellian state they tread China's well worn path.
- zachguo 8y ago
  There is a possible political drive behind recent mass media coverage on Xinjiang surveillance. It will not surprise me if the US announces sanctions on Chinese AI firms in a couple of months.
- elken 8y ago
  Agreed. From their actions in the last couple of days it would appear these governments can hardly take the moral high ground. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for discounting China's concentration camps and social credit programs but it would seem we aren't exactly the bastion of freedom we like to portray.
  - freeflight 8y ago
    They never could, particularly not Germany or the UK. But the US also isn't as innocent as many love to pretend when talking about "state censorship", not even acknowledging how the US doesn't need to "state censor" but merely applies soft-pressure to US companies to do the censoring for them [0]. [0] http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-cleaners/ http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-cleaners/
alfiedotwtf 8y ago
... and Australia will be America's testing ground for their own
lgleason 8y ago
...and these firms have begun to push those Orwellian values via their culture, products etc.. Bonus points the US universities have also become vectors of this with draconian speech codes etc..
- spamizbad 8y ago
  Right on. I can't believe what they're trying to do to Joshua Clover of UC-Davis. "PC gone mad" as they say.
  - deertick1 8y ago
    Im sorry but what are "they" trying to do to Joshua Clover? And who is "they?" As far as I can tell, UC davis just said they don't agree with him. Honestly I would be fine with more punitive action for him. Calling for the murder of police officers has no place in acedemia. Additionally, this guy seems like a total quack.
  - will_pseudonym 8y ago
    "political correctness gone mad" > What’s wrong with society today? > People think that cops need to be reformed. They need to be killed. https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-write-stuff-joshua-clover-on-wearing-intense-knowledge-lightly-and-changing-quickly https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-w...
    - spamizbad 8y ago
      I don't agree with that statement but he's well within his rights to say them and trying to get him fired over it is just wimpy snowflake behavior. Some guy really doesn't like police. Big deal. Until he actually tries to incite or commit violence he's only guilty of having a bad opinion. It's very sad how little regard Americans have for the First Amendment. Put the pitchforks down and engage him with facts, logic and reason. Decency in discourse is possible, but the way to get there isn't through making it illegal to drink tea without your pinky raised.
- 8y ago
tru3_power 8y ago
All I can think is that we should tread cafefully. We’re at that point where the misuse of AI can get real bad (even worse than what the article describes). If nothing is done now one day we will look back and say “damn we had a chance to stop this”.
danschumann 8y ago
Historically speaking, I would say this trend would end with their citizens rebelling, but with robotics becoming more prominent, it's possible that revolution becomes impossible. Techno-fascism is the most dangerous form.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  And meanwhile, it's the left who argue that the State should hold a monopoly on the use of force.
  - vore 8y ago
    If you want to rebel against the state, whether or not they have a "monopoly on the use of force" is irrelevant: civilians aren't going to be able to fight against effectively against a trained military or state paramilitary, especially more so in the US.
    - CamperBob2 8y ago
      Yeah, because that kind of thinking worked so well in Viet Nam and any number of other places.
    - Reelin 8y ago
      This could not be more false. A prime example is the history of the (still ongoing) Iraq conflict - it's nearing 16 years now. Or there's Viet Nam, Northern Ireland (aka the troubles), and you might recall the Communist Party of China? See this Wikipedia page for many more (both successful and not so successful). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_guerrilla_movements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_guerrilla_movements The people making up that "trained military" are themselves civilians at the end of the day. It all comes down to how widely supported the revolutionaries are. In most cases they don't fare well because they aren't actually that widely supported, just vocal and violent. This all changes in the fairly predictable near future where scifi-esque armed machines are a reality.
est 8y ago
Let's not forget Cisco actually built the early generation of the Great Firewall https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/
- ironic_ali 8y ago
  No, let's not forget that. However, where there's money (and China has a lot of it) most companies, tech or not, are going to jump through hoops and sell their ethics & morals to get it. "The shareholders demand profits!" Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100 years.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - MisterTea 8y ago
    > Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100 years. Ancient Rome dont count? It's the human condition. Nothing has changed.
angel_j 8y ago
If you think China is your competitor, it makes economic and political sense to help them do something stupid. Don't interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake, unless you can assist.
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  On that note, this wasn't so long ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-china-trademarks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-chi...
TheLuddite 8y ago
These are public companies, therefore they have to drive up their stock price by any means necessary.
whatamidoingyo 8y ago
Meanwhile U.S. consumers are helping build their own Orwellian state.
ajuc 8y ago
Not the first time. IBM helped with managing death and concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
torqueTorrent 8y ago
It used to be that part of the unwritten contract of the 'Golden Rule' in our culture was a recognition that adults have access to things that are dangerous or that could deprive each other of life, liberty, property etc, and that therefore these implements must be handled with care such that bad outcomes do not occur for anyone. The free market has seemingly granted a reprieve from such unwritten contracts and any form of conscience and now allow all implements to be systematically leveraged in the favor of investors seeking returns.
- cpursley 8y ago
  Sounds more like crony capitalism than failures of the free market (see comment by nilskidoo).
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  When was this golden era that you romanticise? I don’t recall a time in history when some group of people somewhere weren’t deprive some other group of people life, liberty, property etc. Perhaps the rate of occurance has changed over time, or reporting has changed over time. There’s a strong case to be made that the recent past was less pleasant for, for example, women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >There’s a strong case to be made that the recent past was less pleasant for, for example, women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations. The recent past can still be "less pleasant" in some aspects and for some groups, and still be "more pleasant" in other aspects. It's not like to bring X element of, say, 1950s, you need to bring with it ALL elements. If someone e.g. wants a more loyal company/employee culture, and pines for the 50s and 60s in that respect, that doesn't mean they also want all other characteristics of 50s and 60s. Or that they're in any way necessarily tied and somehow are an "all or nothing" proposition. Even for "women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations", life was better in some previous era in some aspects and worse today in those same aspects, even if had it bad in many other ways then that they don't now. We should be able to want to cherry pick stuff that was better before, and re-install it or have it inspire us today, without automatic accusations of "romanticizing".
rdxm 8y ago
This is of course old news. However, China is an ecological disaster(as is most of Asia at this point) and with desertification spreading east from the Mongolian plains, they have intractable internal problems to worry about.
wpdev_63 8y ago
Well the amazon echo is being used in evidence in open court so I am not sure if the chinese are so special[0]. [0]:https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-warrant-amazon-echo-data-arkansas-murder-case-n700776 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-warran...
- mlindner 8y ago
  Good reason why it's a good idea to use alternatives that don't upload/record all voice data to the cloud.
mratzloff 8y ago
This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. The sociopaths running these projects have always cared solely about personal profit and power. The company that became ExxonMobil supplied fuel for the Luftwaffe, while Davis Oil and Texaco fueled U-boats. Chase Bank funneled money for the Nazis. ITT improved German telecommunications infrastructure (working closely with the Gestapo) and built bombs. Ford supplied tanks to the Nazis. Hollywood changed content and even dropped films for the global market in collaboration with Nazi censors. The Associated Press hired actual Nazis and hid the worst elements of Nazi Germany from the world so they could continue to operate there. IBM's German subsidiary helped with the Holocaust, operating with the approval of the New York office during wartime. Plenty of other US companies collaborated as well, often with the tacit approval of the government, which was given by sympathizers in positions of power and extracted by extortion, since the US needed their help to win the war. US companies often had the same approach with the Soviet Union. The thing is—it works. These companies get away with it again and again, and then the people in charge, and later their children, use their ill-gotten fortunes and influence to entrench themselves even more. It's literally Ned Beatty's speech from the end of Network. http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Network-Monologue-Ned-Beatty.pdf http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Netw...
- ativzzz 8y ago
  Is this actually the best self-serving way for America to play these games? Sell your services and technology to your 'competitors' (authoritarian governments), who will eventually collapse because they are so reliant on America to maintain its authoritarianism. In the end, America (or at least the people running these companies) come out richer, and 'democracy' prevails.
  - oAlbe 8y ago
    Of course, I mean, those millions of people were going to die anyway, might as well make a buck out of it, right?
- xster 8y ago
  Wasn't all early NASA space programs the V-2 rocket people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
dquarks 8y ago
That scientists, doing basic research with partners overseas, are somehow implicated in China's surveillance ploy is disheartening. With that being said, an immediate solution is unclear to me. Certainly foreign scientists shouldn't stop collaborating with Chinese scientists. And, frankly, I'm not entirely certain whether Chinese scientists are wittingly cooperating with their totalitarian government. If they are, then sigh. Yet, if they aren't, then, well, sigh again.
tempodox 8y ago
After they've built the Orwellian State in the U.S. it would be foolish not to export and monetize their expertise.
josephv 8y ago
Eastasia certainly wouldn't be the same without Eurasia and Oceana.
gabbygab 8y ago
Aren't we helping britain, much of europe, australia, etc build orwellian states too? What about our firms, government and military helping build an orwellian state in saudi arabia and israel? Everyday, all I see are articles about orwellian state in china. They've always had an orwellian state so why the sudden focus? Shouldm't we be more worried about the orwellian state that's slowly being created here at home or amongst our allies?
jeffreyrogers 8y ago
What is the perception of this among the Chinese citizenry? Do they view this surveillance positively, or do they see it negatively but feel powerless to do anything about it?

280 points by malloryerik 8y ago

The trio of global trade treaties, TISA, TTIP and TPP had small writing permitting larger corporations to ignore or even rewrite international laws should said laws promote regulations. They also had a clause, as Assange himself wrote about, where if a government was doing something which one of these corporations could profit from, then the government was no longer permitted to pursue, lest they be sanctioned and embargoed by every other participating nation-state. I've been saying all along, the deals are dead in name only. We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments.

Escolte 8y ago
And it all has a name: Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism We're actively transfering national sovereignty in chunks to organizations that can by design, as their sole purpose is to make money, turn against the interests of the people of a country in a switch.
- MultusSalus 8y ago
  I don’t think that Wikipedia article is about the same topic.
- arvinsim 8y ago
  I think what you mean is Corporatocracy or Plutocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy
deogeo 8y ago
> where if a government was doing something which one of these corporations could profit from, then the government was no longer permitted to pursue, I knew those 'trade' deals were full of the most awful stuff, but didn't know about this - I'd be grateful for some kind of source.
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  This is as good a starting point as any: https://wikileaks.org/ttip/ https://wikileaks.org/ttip/
  - deogeo 8y ago
    Could you narrow it down for me? There's some shady looking text in the State-owned Enterprise section, but the legalese is difficult to pierce.
_bxg1 8y ago
Whenever I see stuff like this, all I can do is choose to believe that concentrated power will always eventually crumble under its own fragility. That's how it's worked so far. AI may change that equation one day, but one has to be able to sleep at night.
- devoply 8y ago
  No it hasn't concentration of power has led to violence and revolution... at the very least to organized labor. Maybe it makes systems with certain structures fragile, like a despot but we don't have systems like these are are inherently fragile. Delusional to think that things magically fix themselves. AI consolidates power and makes revolt even more difficult once it's realized as something completely automated. China might collapse under its own weight as it does not have robust systems and the West is looking to hurt its economy to further cause instability, but corporatism elsewhere continues to grow stronger.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    > revolution...organized labor Precisely. The masses have always been able to, eventually, usurp the few. The thing that's made democratic nations like the U.S. so successful is that they harness the power of the many. A diverse system is much more fault-tolerant than a centralized one. The minds and wills of a free populace, competing but also cooperating, have always been stronger than the minds of a minority which controls a populace. What's best for people has traditionally been aligned with what's effective, in this respect. Empires always fall. But, yes, AI could change that. We'll see how it plays out.
    - meruru 8y ago
      It's not AI that's going to change that, it's mass surveillance and ubiquitous proprietary software. AI may contribute to it, but it's the fact that we've given away control over our life and our society that's the real issue.
      - _bxg1 8y ago
HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments. I have a better relationship with corporations more than governments. A corporation has never harassed me at an airport when trying to leave. If I don't like MacDonalds I can... stop eating at MacDonalds. If I don't like the services the state provides I have to physically remove myself.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  If you don't like Google and Apple you can't stop using both of them. If you don't like your local ISP you probably can't stop using it. The free market only gives consumers power over corporations when those consumers - through democracy - keep them from amassing too much power via regulatory bodies. Some people act like the government is the threat, but in a democracy the government is the only thing that truly gives you any power.
  - lamarpye 8y ago
    I don't agree. Which is more likely for you to end up in jail? Not buying an iPhone or stop paying your taxes?
    - nilskidoo 8y ago
      I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. And debtors prisons are still a thing: https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/ending-modern-day-debtors-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/...
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I don’t understand why this sort of thing doesn’t permit US citizens to seek asylum as political refugees in slightly less fckdup countries.
frozenport 8y ago
TPP was an anti-China policy
kmlx 8y ago
"as Assange himself wrote about" I don't believe a word of this KGB/FSB agent. "We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments." Considering how awful governments are, it just seems natural. At least with a corporation I can buy stock, I can attend shareholder meetings. With governments I have to wait 4 years or longer to choose between crap and more crap. That's why I think more and more people prefer Google over the government of the day. Without fixing democracy's major faults, more corps will gain more and more power.
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  WL hosts over half a million docs pertaining to the Russian government, and Assange's mentor Gavin MacFadyen was banned from entering Russia under any circumstances for the last 20 or 30 years of his life, but sure. And...the OP concerns US firms building China's Orwellian state. Literally contributing to "how awful governments are".
  - fifnir 8y ago
    I had a (admittedly brief look) on WL's site and couldn't find anything with regards to Russia's gov., Would you please show me what you mean ?
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Stocks and shareholder meetings are artificial constructs defined by governments. Antitrust, trade secrets, prosecution of insider trading, consumer protection. Without a government you have none of these things; without these things, the free market reverts to feudal lords battling it out by any means necessary.
  - fifnir 8y ago
    Well put, it's really shocking to read some of those wild corporation-worshiping views on HN.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

thedudeabides5 8y ago

"We connect the dots among politics, places, and people." I feel like this is all my fault

superkuh 8y ago

Not just China's. But as western nations (Germany re: tor, Aus/NZ re: censorship) rush to implement their own orwellian state they tread China's well worn path.

zachguo 8y ago
There is a possible political drive behind recent mass media coverage on Xinjiang surveillance. It will not surprise me if the US announces sanctions on Chinese AI firms in a couple of months.
elken 8y ago
Agreed. From their actions in the last couple of days it would appear these governments can hardly take the moral high ground. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for discounting China's concentration camps and social credit programs but it would seem we aren't exactly the bastion of freedom we like to portray.
- freeflight 8y ago
  They never could, particularly not Germany or the UK. But the US also isn't as innocent as many love to pretend when talking about "state censorship", not even acknowledging how the US doesn't need to "state censor" but merely applies soft-pressure to US companies to do the censoring for them [0]. [0] http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-cleaners/ http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-cleaners/

alfiedotwtf 8y ago

... and Australia will be America's testing ground for their own

lgleason 8y ago

...and these firms have begun to push those Orwellian values via their culture, products etc.. Bonus points the US universities have also become vectors of this with draconian speech codes etc..

spamizbad 8y ago
Right on. I can't believe what they're trying to do to Joshua Clover of UC-Davis. "PC gone mad" as they say.
- deertick1 8y ago
  Im sorry but what are "they" trying to do to Joshua Clover? And who is "they?" As far as I can tell, UC davis just said they don't agree with him. Honestly I would be fine with more punitive action for him. Calling for the murder of police officers has no place in acedemia. Additionally, this guy seems like a total quack.
- will_pseudonym 8y ago
  "political correctness gone mad" > What’s wrong with society today? > People think that cops need to be reformed. They need to be killed. https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-write-stuff-joshua-clover-on-wearing-intense-knowledge-lightly-and-changing-quickly https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-w...
  - spamizbad 8y ago
    I don't agree with that statement but he's well within his rights to say them and trying to get him fired over it is just wimpy snowflake behavior. Some guy really doesn't like police. Big deal. Until he actually tries to incite or commit violence he's only guilty of having a bad opinion. It's very sad how little regard Americans have for the First Amendment. Put the pitchforks down and engage him with facts, logic and reason. Decency in discourse is possible, but the way to get there isn't through making it illegal to drink tea without your pinky raised.
8y ago

tru3_power 8y ago

All I can think is that we should tread cafefully. We’re at that point where the misuse of AI can get real bad (even worse than what the article describes). If nothing is done now one day we will look back and say “damn we had a chance to stop this”.

danschumann 8y ago

Historically speaking, I would say this trend would end with their citizens rebelling, but with robotics becoming more prominent, it's possible that revolution becomes impossible. Techno-fascism is the most dangerous form.

deleted 8y ago
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CamperBob2 8y ago
And meanwhile, it's the left who argue that the State should hold a monopoly on the use of force.
- vore 8y ago
  If you want to rebel against the state, whether or not they have a "monopoly on the use of force" is irrelevant: civilians aren't going to be able to fight against effectively against a trained military or state paramilitary, especially more so in the US.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    Yeah, because that kind of thinking worked so well in Viet Nam and any number of other places.
  - Reelin 8y ago
    This could not be more false. A prime example is the history of the (still ongoing) Iraq conflict - it's nearing 16 years now. Or there's Viet Nam, Northern Ireland (aka the troubles), and you might recall the Communist Party of China? See this Wikipedia page for many more (both successful and not so successful). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_guerrilla_movements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_guerrilla_movements The people making up that "trained military" are themselves civilians at the end of the day. It all comes down to how widely supported the revolutionaries are. In most cases they don't fare well because they aren't actually that widely supported, just vocal and violent. This all changes in the fairly predictable near future where scifi-esque armed machines are a reality.

est 8y ago

Let's not forget Cisco actually built the early generation of the Great Firewall https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/

ironic_ali 8y ago
No, let's not forget that. However, where there's money (and China has a lot of it) most companies, tech or not, are going to jump through hoops and sell their ethics & morals to get it. "The shareholders demand profits!" Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100 years.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- MisterTea 8y ago
  > Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100 years. Ancient Rome dont count? It's the human condition. Nothing has changed.

angel_j 8y ago

If you think China is your competitor, it makes economic and political sense to help them do something stupid. Don't interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake, unless you can assist.

nilskidoo 8y ago
On that note, this wasn't so long ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-china-trademarks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-chi...

TheLuddite 8y ago

These are public companies, therefore they have to drive up their stock price by any means necessary.

whatamidoingyo 8y ago

Meanwhile U.S. consumers are helping build their own Orwellian state.

ajuc 8y ago

Not the first time. IBM helped with managing death and concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

torqueTorrent 8y ago

It used to be that part of the unwritten contract of the 'Golden Rule' in our culture was a recognition that adults have access to things that are dangerous or that could deprive each other of life, liberty, property etc, and that therefore these implements must be handled with care such that bad outcomes do not occur for anyone. The free market has seemingly granted a reprieve from such unwritten contracts and any form of conscience and now allow all implements to be systematically leveraged in the favor of investors seeking returns.

cpursley 8y ago
Sounds more like crony capitalism than failures of the free market (see comment by nilskidoo).
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
When was this golden era that you romanticise? I don’t recall a time in history when some group of people somewhere weren’t deprive some other group of people life, liberty, property etc. Perhaps the rate of occurance has changed over time, or reporting has changed over time. There’s a strong case to be made that the recent past was less pleasant for, for example, women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >There’s a strong case to be made that the recent past was less pleasant for, for example, women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations. The recent past can still be "less pleasant" in some aspects and for some groups, and still be "more pleasant" in other aspects. It's not like to bring X element of, say, 1950s, you need to bring with it ALL elements. If someone e.g. wants a more loyal company/employee culture, and pines for the 50s and 60s in that respect, that doesn't mean they also want all other characteristics of 50s and 60s. Or that they're in any way necessarily tied and somehow are an "all or nothing" proposition. Even for "women, blacks, same-sex attracted people, religious people from any number of denominations", life was better in some previous era in some aspects and worse today in those same aspects, even if had it bad in many other ways then that they don't now. We should be able to want to cherry pick stuff that was better before, and re-install it or have it inspire us today, without automatic accusations of "romanticizing".

rdxm 8y ago

This is of course old news. However, China is an ecological disaster(as is most of Asia at this point) and with desertification spreading east from the Mongolian plains, they have intractable internal problems to worry about.

wpdev_63 8y ago

Well the amazon echo is being used in evidence in open court so I am not sure if the chinese are so special[0]. [0]:https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-warrant-amazon-echo-data-arkansas-murder-case-n700776 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-warran...

mlindner 8y ago
Good reason why it's a good idea to use alternatives that don't upload/record all voice data to the cloud.

mratzloff 8y ago

This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. The sociopaths running these projects have always cared solely about personal profit and power. The company that became ExxonMobil supplied fuel for the Luftwaffe, while Davis Oil and Texaco fueled U-boats. Chase Bank funneled money for the Nazis. ITT improved German telecommunications infrastructure (working closely with the Gestapo) and built bombs. Ford supplied tanks to the Nazis. Hollywood changed content and even dropped films for the global market in collaboration with Nazi censors. The Associated Press hired actual Nazis and hid the worst elements of Nazi Germany from the world so they could continue to operate there. IBM's German subsidiary helped with the Holocaust, operating with the approval of the New York office during wartime. Plenty of other US companies collaborated as well, often with the tacit approval of the government, which was given by sympathizers in positions of power and extracted by extortion, since the US needed their help to win the war. US companies often had the same approach with the Soviet Union. The thing is—it works. These companies get away with it again and again, and then the people in charge, and later their children, use their ill-gotten fortunes and influence to entrench themselves even more. It's literally Ned Beatty's speech from the end of Network. http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Network-Monologue-Ned-Beatty.pdf http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Netw...

ativzzz 8y ago
Is this actually the best self-serving way for America to play these games? Sell your services and technology to your 'competitors' (authoritarian governments), who will eventually collapse because they are so reliant on America to maintain its authoritarianism. In the end, America (or at least the people running these companies) come out richer, and 'democracy' prevails.
- oAlbe 8y ago
  Of course, I mean, those millions of people were going to die anyway, might as well make a buck out of it, right?
xster 8y ago
Wasn't all early NASA space programs the V-2 rocket people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

dquarks 8y ago

That scientists, doing basic research with partners overseas, are somehow implicated in China's surveillance ploy is disheartening. With that being said, an immediate solution is unclear to me. Certainly foreign scientists shouldn't stop collaborating with Chinese scientists. And, frankly, I'm not entirely certain whether Chinese scientists are wittingly cooperating with their totalitarian government. If they are, then sigh. Yet, if they aren't, then, well, sigh again.

tempodox 8y ago

After they've built the Orwellian State in the U.S. it would be foolish not to export and monetize their expertise.

josephv 8y ago

Eastasia certainly wouldn't be the same without Eurasia and Oceana.

gabbygab 8y ago

Aren't we helping britain, much of europe, australia, etc build orwellian states too? What about our firms, government and military helping build an orwellian state in saudi arabia and israel? Everyday, all I see are articles about orwellian state in china. They've always had an orwellian state so why the sudden focus? Shouldm't we be more worried about the orwellian state that's slowly being created here at home or amongst our allies?

jeffreyrogers 8y ago

What is the perception of this among the Chinese citizenry? Do they view this surveillance positively, or do they see it negatively but feel powerless to do anything about it?