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After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being

by omk 8y ago

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and depression all around. None of my classmates seemed to have any weekends to travel around or play a sport. Friends needed smoke breaks every couple hours during group assignments. The fact that the program didn't offer the quality that one would expect made matters worse. I spent 6 months doing things that I did not enjoy. At the same time, my 5 years of work experience taught me enough to understand that what I was spending most of time on did not prepare me intellecually with regards to what to expect once I am back in the industry. The only preparation I was getting was the ability to absorb stress; and I was sucking at it. Dark thoughts started haunting me; I pushed through one semester and came back home to evaluate the ROI of this whole ordeal. I quit after going back in order change my program to something better; but time to switch and forth coming costs weren't motivating enough. UPDATE: I would honestly attribute most of the ordeal part to the program I selected. I looked forward to a couple professors to work with; both of them ended up either leaving the university or reducing their focus on my program. I saw students in other programs go along really well. At this point in academia I would consider it critical to visit the university personally (even if you are an international) to evaluate the environment you would be studying in and understand from fellow students how the program is being driven.

skrebbel 8y ago
My I ask what you studied and where? I'm curious because I did a Master's (CS) at a Dutch university (Eindhoven) and my experience was the total opposite. Lots of students were involved in extracurricular activities, there was time for study and time for fun, people generally seemed mostly relaxed. I'll concur that the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do. But I suspect that holds for most Master's programs out there (doesn't make it less ridiculous of course).
- omk 8y ago
  This was a Data Science program by TU/e and Tilburg hosted in Den Bosch. To be very honest I saw friends at TU/e relating well with their program and even manging trips to Spain while the folks in my program very occupied with mostly procedural assignments and struggled to find time to go out for drinks. This could very well be a one off thing because my program had a huge number of drop-outs through the first and second semester.
  - skrebbel 8y ago
    Woa that's pretty shit. I'm well aware of the fanfare with which they announced that program so it disappoints me that your experience is so bad.
  - mathattack 8y ago
    Cross functional programs are frequently suffer because they’re treated as cash cows by the university, but no home department owns giving them enough attention. A wise friend once advised “beware interesting grad programs.” (Example: MIT has world class engineering, and a Top 10 business school. The anecdotal reviews I’ve heard from graduates of both are higher than joint engineering-business programs, even if the latter look better on paper)
- ascar 8y ago
  > the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic that helps you adapt to new challenges (also in industry) and even more important university should teach you how to approach and understand new complex concepts by yourself. If you want job preparation the best thing is an apprenticeship program (i.e. learning on the job) or maybe a specialiced practice focused college/trade school. Granted, I think most day to day programmers don't need a CS degree.
  - chii 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
roel_v 8y ago
In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, meaning that if you haven't done the bachelors work, it's generally harder to make it in the masters, especially for hard sciences. Universities will take your money anyway of course, at best they'll give you a vague list of 'prerequisite courses' without detailing what level you're supposed to be at. So yeah, I can imagine you didn't have a great time given the circumstances, but that's at least partially to blame on faulty expectations, and it's also not what the OP is about.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do. This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doing all coursework for an MBA.
  - unithrowaway 8y ago
    Personal anecdote: I did relatively poorly for my Bachelor's, finishing with a GPA of about 2.7. I attended most lectures anywhere from 70 to 95% of the time. I was treating University like school; I went to the lectures just to listen. The week before the exam, I scrolled through the slides once, making sure I understand the material. However, understanding versus being able to fill in the answers to pre-selected types of assignments within barely more the time than it takes to thoroughly read all the questions are two very different and mostly independent skills. During my Master's, I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a lecture hall. Instead I spent my time relaxing at home. Every once-in-a-while, I registered for a bunch of exams, which would then force me to go through the lecture slides at home and practice solving some old exams. I graduated the Master's with 4.0 GPA.
blablabla123 8y ago
> The only preparation I was getting was the ability to absorb stress; and I was sucking at it. That's interesting, in my second semester (Physics) a professor said to us in his introduction lecture that one of the biggest things you learn during studies is stress resilience. There's definitely a lot of truth to that. Although back at the time I didn't realize it but looking back it was the case. During studies and also 1-2 years afterwards I got incredibly resilient to stress. No matter how much I had to do or how bad an incoming news was, I was just thinking, oh yeah now I need to do this, this and this or okay, that's just how it is, cannot do something about it. But yeah, the bill comes years after when you realize how you couldn't maintain any relationship that is not super close to you. I wish people designing university programs but also those giving advise, would remove some of the pressure and also make the programs less intense (or at least longer with the same amount of things). As you mentioned, apart from very specific university career tracks there is little usage for many of those hard earned skills and tricks.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  I think there is a serious problem of people coming out of academia and transferring the workplace into the only type of environment they know and described above. Obediendce to the credentials and high tollerance to bullshit, supervisors forcing others to make the supervisors’ mistakes. The workplace becomes a circus of absurd dead end ideas, probing the patience of anyone with any clue on how business- or customer- facing production software or service should work.
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    Isn't that by design?
- omk 8y ago
  I was very much considered increasing the duration of my course to 3 years. But that would mean I would spend euro 15k more. It would have been ideal to price the courses based on number of credits you take, but that sadly wasn't the case.
- usgroup 8y ago
bigbangchina 8y ago
No one forcing them to work hard tho. I think some people have insecurities and other mental health concern which make them work more than other Ordinary people. And just because some people are working lot more than others, they'll discover something new or have success purely due to brute force and not actually due to some latent talent

by omk 8y ago

skrebbel 8y ago

My I ask what you studied and where? I'm curious because I did a Master's (CS) at a Dutch university (Eindhoven) and my experience was the total opposite. Lots of students were involved in extracurricular activities, there was time for study and time for fun, people generally seemed mostly relaxed. I'll concur that the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do. But I suspect that holds for most Master's programs out there (doesn't make it less ridiculous of course).

omk 8y ago
This was a Data Science program by TU/e and Tilburg hosted in Den Bosch. To be very honest I saw friends at TU/e relating well with their program and even manging trips to Spain while the folks in my program very occupied with mostly procedural assignments and struggled to find time to go out for drinks. This could very well be a one off thing because my program had a huge number of drop-outs through the first and second semester.
- skrebbel 8y ago
  Woa that's pretty shit. I'm well aware of the fanfare with which they announced that program so it disappoints me that your experience is so bad.
- mathattack 8y ago
  Cross functional programs are frequently suffer because they’re treated as cash cows by the university, but no home department owns giving them enough attention. A wise friend once advised “beware interesting grad programs.” (Example: MIT has world class engineering, and a Top 10 business school. The anecdotal reviews I’ve heard from graduates of both are higher than joint engineering-business programs, even if the latter look better on paper)
ascar 8y ago
> the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic that helps you adapt to new challenges (also in industry) and even more important university should teach you how to approach and understand new complex concepts by yourself. If you want job preparation the best thing is an apprenticeship program (i.e. learning on the job) or maybe a specialiced practice focused college/trade school. Granted, I think most day to day programmers don't need a CS degree.
- chii 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

roel_v 8y ago

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, meaning that if you haven't done the bachelors work, it's generally harder to make it in the masters, especially for hard sciences. Universities will take your money anyway of course, at best they'll give you a vague list of 'prerequisite courses' without detailing what level you're supposed to be at. So yeah, I can imagine you didn't have a great time given the circumstances, but that's at least partially to blame on faulty expectations, and it's also not what the OP is about.

barry-cotter 8y ago
A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do. This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doing all coursework for an MBA.
- unithrowaway 8y ago
  Personal anecdote: I did relatively poorly for my Bachelor's, finishing with a GPA of about 2.7. I attended most lectures anywhere from 70 to 95% of the time. I was treating University like school; I went to the lectures just to listen. The week before the exam, I scrolled through the slides once, making sure I understand the material. However, understanding versus being able to fill in the answers to pre-selected types of assignments within barely more the time than it takes to thoroughly read all the questions are two very different and mostly independent skills. During my Master's, I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a lecture hall. Instead I spent my time relaxing at home. Every once-in-a-while, I registered for a bunch of exams, which would then force me to go through the lecture slides at home and practice solving some old exams. I graduated the Master's with 4.0 GPA.

blablabla123 8y ago

> The only preparation I was getting was the ability to absorb stress; and I was sucking at it. That's interesting, in my second semester (Physics) a professor said to us in his introduction lecture that one of the biggest things you learn during studies is stress resilience. There's definitely a lot of truth to that. Although back at the time I didn't realize it but looking back it was the case. During studies and also 1-2 years afterwards I got incredibly resilient to stress. No matter how much I had to do or how bad an incoming news was, I was just thinking, oh yeah now I need to do this, this and this or okay, that's just how it is, cannot do something about it. But yeah, the bill comes years after when you realize how you couldn't maintain any relationship that is not super close to you. I wish people designing university programs but also those giving advise, would remove some of the pressure and also make the programs less intense (or at least longer with the same amount of things). As you mentioned, apart from very specific university career tracks there is little usage for many of those hard earned skills and tricks.

expertentipp 8y ago
I think there is a serious problem of people coming out of academia and transferring the workplace into the only type of environment they know and described above. Obediendce to the credentials and high tollerance to bullshit, supervisors forcing others to make the supervisors’ mistakes. The workplace becomes a circus of absurd dead end ideas, probing the patience of anyone with any clue on how business- or customer- facing production software or service should work.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  Isn't that by design?
omk 8y ago
I was very much considered increasing the duration of my course to 3 years. But that would mean I would spend euro 15k more. It would have been ideal to price the courses based on number of credits you take, but that sadly wasn't the case.
usgroup 8y ago

bigbangchina 8y ago

No one forcing them to work hard tho. I think some people have insecurities and other mental health concern which make them work more than other Ordinary people. And just because some people are working lot more than others, they'll discover something new or have success purely due to brute force and not actually due to some latent talent