6 ms·

The article explains how return-free filing already works in many countries and how it could work in the US. I know it's against the HN guidelines to comment on

The article explains how return-free filing already works in many countries and how it could work in the US. I know it's against the HN guidelines to comment on whether someone has read the article, but you clearly haven't read the article. From a British perspective, the US tax system seems utterly bizarre, because most people here have never filed a tax return. Taxes for regular employees are deducted at source by the employer. Everyone has a tax code that reflects what allowances they are entitled to; if your circumstances change, you just call the tax helpline, inform them of the change and they update your tax code. Self-employed people do have to submit a tax return, but you can do it all online and the tax agency offers free training on how to do it. There is literally no reason why salaried employees should have to do their own taxes. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/tax/how-to-pay-income-tax/the-pay-as-you-earn-paye-system/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/tax/how-to-...

rayiner 8y ago
> The article explains how return-free filing already works in many countries and how it could work in the US. I know it's against the HN guidelines to comment on whether someone has read the article, but you clearly haven't read the article. This article (or something similar) pops up on HN every six months, and it’s stupid every time. It’s shocking to me that people find the idea credible because it doesn’t even pass the smell test. Even if this was about lobbying, there is no way Intuit and H&R Block can outspend all the people who have an interest in simpler tax filing. Seriously, Intuit spends $2.5 million per year on lobbying—there are dozens of things that raise more on crowdfunding each year, such as the “Opal Nugget Ice Maker.” Last year, a board game raised more money on Kickstarter than Intuit and H&R Block spent lobbying. The UK is a very different country than the US, and much more comfortable with both central government control and taxes. Switzerland also has manual tax filing, and the US is much more similar to Switzerland in terms of taxes as a fraction of GDP, guns per capita, federalism, etc.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Why don't you make paying tax easier? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you reduce your carbon emissions? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you make healthcare affordable? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you make it harder for psychologically disturbed adolescents to access semi-automatic weapons? It wouldn't work here. It's the same argument ad nauseum about every political issue since before the civil war. The US is unique, the US electorate have strong and immutable views, the US cannot learn from anyone else. Time and time again, educated people dismiss the possibility of change, dismiss the possibility of persuasion and compromise and reconciliation, dismiss the possibility of shifting the Overton window and changing the zeitgeist. That isn't common sense, it's political nihilism. The consequences of that nihilistic ideology are writ large on the American political landscape and they are proving to be disastrous.
  - tedunangst 8y ago
    But it's impossible to move the Overton window because of the massive TurboTax bribes.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      There's probably a dozen people on HN reading this thread right now who can throw more cash at politicians than Intuit spends on lobbying each year.
      - mixmastamyk 8y ago
        Cheaper to hire an accountant to deal.
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        But they don't.
      - dredmorbius 8y ago
        https://www.worldcat.org/title/logic-of-collective-action-public-goods-and-the-theory-of-groups/oclc/980947758 https://www.worldcat.org/title/logic-of-collective-action-pu...
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  "Seriously, Intuit spends $2.5 million per year on lobbying—there are dozens of things that raise more on crowdfunding each year, such as the “Opal Nugget Ice Maker.” " The difference is that these companies keep spending the money hooking up with the right people (lobbyists) that get them results. Sure the public, charitable companies, trusts, and so on could compete with them for politicians. They don't, though. So, the lobbyists getting politicians fame, fortune, and re-election are the ones that win since those are what politicians are all about. That's also why the companies lobbyists work for seem to get all this legislation that benefits them at our expense despite so many good reasons to not do that... if they worked for us. Lobbying, if applied, should be one of first things to consider that might motivate a politician's actions. The evidence favors that it does here in the U.S. a lot. It and votes from popular/hated topics seem to drive most of political, decision making.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Except you’re forgetting public unions, which lobby extensively and would benefit if tax filing were simplified (allowing taxes to be raised more easily). If spending the money would get the result, they’d do it.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      It’s also possible that unions have other areas that are more important to them as a group (worker rights, fighting right-to-work, healthcare, etc). In fact, I’m not sure any group has as much interest in this as tax preparers, hence their annual lobbying.
cm2187 8y ago
Capital gain tax.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Brokerages are required to report sales of securities and cost basis information to the IRS when you sell. The IRS already has information about your capital gains and can fill out that part of the return as well.
  - cm2187 8y ago
    The parent post was talking about the UK. CGT requires a tax filling (if you have CGT in excess of the tax free allowance).
    - kelnos 8y ago
      Not sure what your point is; this is a thread about tax filing in the US, and the parent was comparing it to the UK. You, referencing capital gains tax, were (I assume) referring to the US? So was I.
  - tardo99 8y ago
    If you bought the asset before like 2010 they don't have cost basis info. Believe it or not people sell assets bought in like 1970 and report that on their tax forms. Full automation is a ways away...
- IshKebab 8y ago
  The first £10k of capital gains is tax free in the UK and that covers virtually everyone. The vast majority of people have no capital anyway (your home does not count, and cars generally do not appreciate).
makomk 8y ago
The UK abolished its tax deduction for mortgage interest a couple of decades ago and marriage allowance still requires contacting HMRC, which many people never get around to.
ineedasername 8y ago
I don't know UK tax law, but there is public healthcare. So one major deduction in the US is completely moot in the UK. The IRS doesn't know what your healthcare expenses were for the year. There are a half dozen similar scenarios. Yes, a lot more could be automated, but it's also the case that too much automation would wrongly automated people out of their money. It would make sense to mail people a prefilled sheet that says, "here's what we know about. Review and make sure you check x, y, z, etc., to see if it's applicable."

rayiner 8y ago

> The article explains how return-free filing already works in many countries and how it could work in the US. I know it's against the HN guidelines to comment on whether someone has read the article, but you clearly haven't read the article. This article (or something similar) pops up on HN every six months, and it’s stupid every time. It’s shocking to me that people find the idea credible because it doesn’t even pass the smell test. Even if this was about lobbying, there is no way Intuit and H&R Block can outspend all the people who have an interest in simpler tax filing. Seriously, Intuit spends $2.5 million per year on lobbying—there are dozens of things that raise more on crowdfunding each year, such as the “Opal Nugget Ice Maker.” Last year, a board game raised more money on Kickstarter than Intuit and H&R Block spent lobbying. The UK is a very different country than the US, and much more comfortable with both central government control and taxes. Switzerland also has manual tax filing, and the US is much more similar to Switzerland in terms of taxes as a fraction of GDP, guns per capita, federalism, etc.

jdietrich 8y ago
Why don't you make paying tax easier? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you reduce your carbon emissions? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you make healthcare affordable? It wouldn't work here. Why don't you make it harder for psychologically disturbed adolescents to access semi-automatic weapons? It wouldn't work here. It's the same argument ad nauseum about every political issue since before the civil war. The US is unique, the US electorate have strong and immutable views, the US cannot learn from anyone else. Time and time again, educated people dismiss the possibility of change, dismiss the possibility of persuasion and compromise and reconciliation, dismiss the possibility of shifting the Overton window and changing the zeitgeist. That isn't common sense, it's political nihilism. The consequences of that nihilistic ideology are writ large on the American political landscape and they are proving to be disastrous.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  But it's impossible to move the Overton window because of the massive TurboTax bribes.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    There's probably a dozen people on HN reading this thread right now who can throw more cash at politicians than Intuit spends on lobbying each year.
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      Cheaper to hire an accountant to deal.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      But they don't.
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      https://www.worldcat.org/title/logic-of-collective-action-public-goods-and-the-theory-of-groups/oclc/980947758 https://www.worldcat.org/title/logic-of-collective-action-pu...
nickpsecurity 8y ago
"Seriously, Intuit spends $2.5 million per year on lobbying—there are dozens of things that raise more on crowdfunding each year, such as the “Opal Nugget Ice Maker.” " The difference is that these companies keep spending the money hooking up with the right people (lobbyists) that get them results. Sure the public, charitable companies, trusts, and so on could compete with them for politicians. They don't, though. So, the lobbyists getting politicians fame, fortune, and re-election are the ones that win since those are what politicians are all about. That's also why the companies lobbyists work for seem to get all this legislation that benefits them at our expense despite so many good reasons to not do that... if they worked for us. Lobbying, if applied, should be one of first things to consider that might motivate a politician's actions. The evidence favors that it does here in the U.S. a lot. It and votes from popular/hated topics seem to drive most of political, decision making.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Except you’re forgetting public unions, which lobby extensively and would benefit if tax filing were simplified (allowing taxes to be raised more easily). If spending the money would get the result, they’d do it.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    It’s also possible that unions have other areas that are more important to them as a group (worker rights, fighting right-to-work, healthcare, etc). In fact, I’m not sure any group has as much interest in this as tax preparers, hence their annual lobbying.

cm2187 8y ago

Capital gain tax.

kelnos 8y ago
Brokerages are required to report sales of securities and cost basis information to the IRS when you sell. The IRS already has information about your capital gains and can fill out that part of the return as well.
- cm2187 8y ago
  The parent post was talking about the UK. CGT requires a tax filling (if you have CGT in excess of the tax free allowance).
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Not sure what your point is; this is a thread about tax filing in the US, and the parent was comparing it to the UK. You, referencing capital gains tax, were (I assume) referring to the US? So was I.
- tardo99 8y ago
  If you bought the asset before like 2010 they don't have cost basis info. Believe it or not people sell assets bought in like 1970 and report that on their tax forms. Full automation is a ways away...
IshKebab 8y ago
The first £10k of capital gains is tax free in the UK and that covers virtually everyone. The vast majority of people have no capital anyway (your home does not count, and cars generally do not appreciate).

makomk 8y ago

The UK abolished its tax deduction for mortgage interest a couple of decades ago and marriage allowance still requires contacting HMRC, which many people never get around to.

ineedasername 8y ago

I don't know UK tax law, but there is public healthcare. So one major deduction in the US is completely moot in the UK. The IRS doesn't know what your healthcare expenses were for the year. There are a half dozen similar scenarios. Yes, a lot more could be automated, but it's also the case that too much automation would wrongly automated people out of their money. It would make sense to mail people a prefilled sheet that says, "here's what we know about. Review and make sure you check x, y, z, etc., to see if it's applicable."