7 ms·

I'm kind of torn on this. My father has been truck driver his entire life and for the last 20 years worked as a contractor, while driving his own truck and trai

I'm kind of torn on this. My father has been truck driver his entire life and for the last 20 years worked as a contractor, while driving his own truck and trailer, since it gives him more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. However, he has non-existent social net. No health insurance, no pension benefits. If he out of work or has serious health issues that ground him for months, he has to dig into savings and I also have to help him. So, if Lyft driver who was "gigging" for them for years gets sick and he is out of work, what kind of help would he get ? None, at least in US.

chrisseaton 8y ago
If he's earning more than average, and professional truck drivers are pretty well paid, then can't be purchase that social net himself? He can buy health insurance, pension, group income protection, everything you mentioned. I know poor people can't do that, and that's the issue, but why can't a well-paid truck driver do it?
- akulbe 8y ago
  He probably can. However, there's a BIG difference in the cost and coverage he'll pay and get between what he has for options as a self-employed person doing gigs, and what he'd get on a group plan with a company, as an employee. Here's some data. I've been contracting for 4 years, and paying for my own insurance. Mediocre medical for a family of three: Year 1 & 2: $970/mo. Year 3: $1167/mo. Year 4: $1410/mo. $BIG_CLIENT just told me after 4 years, to fish or cut bait. I took a full-time position with them. My cost for health insurance on the group plan? $560/mo. for the same family of three. The coverage? AMAZING by comparison. Insurance options for self-employed people aren't the best, in my opinon. Costs are very high, coverage is crappy.
  - badfrog 8y ago
    > My cost for health insurance on the group plan? $560/mo. Is that the full cost, or is your employer also paying something?
    - ams6110 8y ago
      That's his cost. The employer is probably paying twice that much more behind the scenes. Money they could otherwise be paying him.
      - StudentStuff 8y ago
        Money spent on healthcare for employees is untaxed, effectively a 30% bonus.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Premiums are also untaxed if you’re self employed.
        jeffrey_garand 8y ago
        This isn't standard worldwide. In Canada, health, dental, and other benefits are considered taxable.
        Scoundreller 8y ago
        Not when health/dental premiums are paid by the employer.
      - Freak_NL 8y ago
        Employer negotiated insurances tend to cost less than individually bought ones, because the employer gets a group discount. The larger the group, the bigger the collective discount. Just like toilet paper, insurances are cheaper when bought in bulk. Imagine the awesome coverage you'd get as a Lyft or Uber driver if you were actually employed by them.
        tialaramex 8y ago
        More so than with toilet paper. Suppose two people, Alice and Bob, are both shopping for medical insurance in a country like the US where there is no safety net. Alice is basically healthy, except she seems to always catch everything. She got flu twice last winter, crazy! Bob is proud to have never taken a day off in eighteen years. You show them the same price, Bob winces, and decides he'll risk it without insurance but Alice, conscious that she always seems to catch everything, pays anyway. Six years later Alice gets really sick, turns out her immune system was shot but she didn't know it. Insurance company loses money on her. She was a bad investment. Bob's still fine, touch wood. Group insurance is cheaper because you're insuring Bob, who wouldn't have bothered except he's part of the group, as well as Alice, who it turns out was a high risk. This is one reason why countries with universal healthcare don't bankrupt themselves the way typical anti-healthcare models suggest they should. A group with everybody in it is relatively cheap _overall_ to cover because it has loads of healthy people in it, and they don't need much healthcare, not just all the sick people who have no choice but to get into any system they can to avoid dying. "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately". Maybe Franklin never said that, if he didn't he should have.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - edoceo 8y ago
    More anecdata: My company pay Regence $2000/mo for me+2, 3 employees + 1 spouse.
- relaunched 8y ago
  The supply side dynamics of trucking is crazy. There has been a driver shortage for 10+ years, easy. About 2/3 of the trucks on the road are owned by fleets of 5 or less, with most trucks being a 1 unit, owner operator. The entire industry, small and large fleets, use owner operators as perverse cost savings. In some cases, you lease the truck from the large fleet, they charge you for gas and maintenance, insurance, etc; deducted straight from your check. You integrate with their comms / cpu systems, their tracking systems, etc. all for a price. You go where they tell you and when. It's an industry that's almost impossible to run profitably as an owner operator, because those folks are skinned. But, people are in love with the idea of owning their own business - it's kinda like an MLM that way. Now, I founded a trucking company that had as many as 15 trucks that ran over the road, both owner operators and company owned vehicles. At my size, there were very few economies of scale and we ran at a break even, at best - closing after a few years. We paid teams .40 cents a mile, all miles, backing out the per diem and paying SS / payroll taxes on the balance - an ridiculously high workmen's comp (first year was 24%, went down to 16.5% later). I could go into more detail, but you get the point.
  - ohaideredevs 8y ago
    I would be very interested in the details. I keep hearing about friends of friends who pull $80,000 driving a truck, $120,000 when they own one and half a mil once they own a couple. Too lazy to actually do the research, but curious how close these claims are to the truth. Obviously you are seeing a very different picture, and yours actually comes from experience.
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      Maybe they are quoting the money coming in before expenses like gas/lease etc? Maybe they put it an above average investment of time?
      - TylerE 8y ago
        Actually, time is pretty strictly regulated by the DOT. No more than 60 hours duty hours a week, no more than 14 duty hours in a row, of which no more than 11 hours can be actually driving, and must go off duty for at least 10 hours to reset the clock. Sounds more complicated than it is... once the duty period begins, any stops (fuel, breaks, meals, etc) do NOT stop the clock. This is why most long-haul operations use pairs of drivers... one will sleep in the bunk while the other drives.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  Regulators should set a minimum contractor comp that is significantly higher than the total cost of minimum wage + necessary other costs for security (pensions, healthcare). Obviously minimum wage for employees should also be required to include these benefits (if it doesn’t already). Otherwise the minimum wage regulation is possible to circumvent with contractor arrangements.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  Earning = get more cash. From a total compensation perspective, you’re better off with a larger operator.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  A well-paid truck driver can't do it because in many states, such as NY, a comparable health insurance plan is about $800 a month [1], and that's before you even see the doc or pay deductible. [1] I have a broker's license I don't use anymore
denormalfloat 8y ago
How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. There is a market for non-fulltime jobs that would not exist at all if it was forced to be full time. Forcing Lyft to hire employees instead of contractors won't mean there will be more workers with a safety-net; it means there won't be any Lyft. That would be bad for both drivers and the people being driven.
- baby 8y ago
  “How much does he deserve”. Welcome to America. Honestly. This market is not a problem in European country where you get free health care. Why would uber/lyft make an exception for the US? If they can get away with it of course they will.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    It isn't free.
  - denormalfloat 8y ago
    As a rider, I am going to pick the cheapest ride. If Lyft pays their drivers less, it's because I pay Lyft less. If society as a whole picks Lyft, then it's society as a whole paying Lyft drivers less. I view Lyft more as a market maker rather than a company. In that sense, I agree with you, the market isn't the problem. The people to blame are riders, who got fed up with expensive and bad service taxis, and wanted cheaper rides. Lyft (and Uber) delivered on that, but they are only reflecting the will of us as riders.
    - baby 8y ago
      That’s why some stuff like health care should not be privatized. Because the market will always go against it.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - 8y ago
matz1 8y ago
Yes none, at least from Lyft. Because its not Lyft problem to ensure health care, thats more of goverment job.
- badfrog 8y ago
  In the US, the government has somehow convinced us that it is employers' job.
badfrog 8y ago
> So, if Lyft driver who was "gigging" for them for years gets sick and he is out of work, what kind of help would he get ? None, at least in US. Honestly, the same is probably true for most full-time and part-time employees in the US.
- avree 8y ago
  Employers are mandated to give health insurance to full-time employees after they reach a certain size in the US. So no, it is "probably" not true.
  - badfrog 8y ago
    They're not required to pay you while you're unable to work. And aside from some fairly narrow exceptions in FMLA, they could just fire you for being sick.
freefal 8y ago
On the plus side, can't an independent truck driver or an Uber/Lyft driver claim tax deductions for all business-related expenses? From talking to a couple Uber drivers, my sense it that many are aggressive with the definition of "business-related" and deduct most of all their expenses. Appreciating the downsides (need to provide for one's own health insurance and retirement) I don't often see this increase net pay discussed.
- edoceo 8y ago
  Deductions are not like free money. There is not so much an increase in net pay, that's why it's not talked about.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  The only way you deduct most of your expenses is to lie on your taxes and risk prison. Your friends are probably either exaggerating or criminals of the white collar variety. Furthermore say you are able to deduct $100 from your taxable income that you would have paid $30 taxes on you have saved the $30 not the $100 a tax deduction is a reduction on the amount taxed not in most cases free money remitted to the taxpayer. Most peoples expenses are heavily weighted towards, food medical, savings, living space. Whatever they can deduct will be a small portion of their overall expenses. So in turn you don't see this increase in net pay discussed because A) Its not an increase in pay its a tax deduction B) Its a small benefit that is absolutely dwarfed by the additional tax burdens + medical expenses. In short its not discussed because its imaginary.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
Is an ACA marketplace plan available to him? And subsides based on income? I know people in their 60s not yet on Medicare with $800/month premiums with $600/month tax credits based on their income, so their premium nets out to $200/month.
alkibiades 8y ago
he can... buy insurance?
- noitsnot 8y ago
  A driver in the U.S. is banking by owning his own truck and trailer. There is little reason someone working even a half a year can't afford the best insurance on the marketplace.
furi 8y ago
Seems like the problem here is that the various safety nets don't extend to such people in the first place. It would also probably go a long ways to curbing the "employ ten people for 4 hours a week each" strategy we see used to avoid similar obligations.
Angostura 8y ago
>more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. However, he has non-existent social net. No health insurance, no pension benefits. And when those essentials are factored in, does he actually earn mire or less $$$?

chrisseaton 8y ago

If he's earning more than average, and professional truck drivers are pretty well paid, then can't be purchase that social net himself? He can buy health insurance, pension, group income protection, everything you mentioned. I know poor people can't do that, and that's the issue, but why can't a well-paid truck driver do it?

akulbe 8y ago
He probably can. However, there's a BIG difference in the cost and coverage he'll pay and get between what he has for options as a self-employed person doing gigs, and what he'd get on a group plan with a company, as an employee. Here's some data. I've been contracting for 4 years, and paying for my own insurance. Mediocre medical for a family of three: Year 1 & 2: $970/mo. Year 3: $1167/mo. Year 4: $1410/mo. $BIG_CLIENT just told me after 4 years, to fish or cut bait. I took a full-time position with them. My cost for health insurance on the group plan? $560/mo. for the same family of three. The coverage? AMAZING by comparison. Insurance options for self-employed people aren't the best, in my opinon. Costs are very high, coverage is crappy.
- badfrog 8y ago
  > My cost for health insurance on the group plan? $560/mo. Is that the full cost, or is your employer also paying something?
  - ams6110 8y ago
    That's his cost. The employer is probably paying twice that much more behind the scenes. Money they could otherwise be paying him.
    - StudentStuff 8y ago
      Money spent on healthcare for employees is untaxed, effectively a 30% bonus.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Premiums are also untaxed if you’re self employed.
      - jeffrey_garand 8y ago
        This isn't standard worldwide. In Canada, health, dental, and other benefits are considered taxable.
        Scoundreller 8y ago
        Not when health/dental premiums are paid by the employer.
    - Freak_NL 8y ago
      Employer negotiated insurances tend to cost less than individually bought ones, because the employer gets a group discount. The larger the group, the bigger the collective discount. Just like toilet paper, insurances are cheaper when bought in bulk. Imagine the awesome coverage you'd get as a Lyft or Uber driver if you were actually employed by them.
      - tialaramex 8y ago
        More so than with toilet paper. Suppose two people, Alice and Bob, are both shopping for medical insurance in a country like the US where there is no safety net. Alice is basically healthy, except she seems to always catch everything. She got flu twice last winter, crazy! Bob is proud to have never taken a day off in eighteen years. You show them the same price, Bob winces, and decides he'll risk it without insurance but Alice, conscious that she always seems to catch everything, pays anyway. Six years later Alice gets really sick, turns out her immune system was shot but she didn't know it. Insurance company loses money on her. She was a bad investment. Bob's still fine, touch wood. Group insurance is cheaper because you're insuring Bob, who wouldn't have bothered except he's part of the group, as well as Alice, who it turns out was a high risk. This is one reason why countries with universal healthcare don't bankrupt themselves the way typical anti-healthcare models suggest they should. A group with everybody in it is relatively cheap _overall_ to cover because it has loads of healthy people in it, and they don't need much healthcare, not just all the sick people who have no choice but to get into any system they can to avoid dying. "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately". Maybe Franklin never said that, if he didn't he should have.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- edoceo 8y ago
  More anecdata: My company pay Regence $2000/mo for me+2, 3 employees + 1 spouse.
relaunched 8y ago
The supply side dynamics of trucking is crazy. There has been a driver shortage for 10+ years, easy. About 2/3 of the trucks on the road are owned by fleets of 5 or less, with most trucks being a 1 unit, owner operator. The entire industry, small and large fleets, use owner operators as perverse cost savings. In some cases, you lease the truck from the large fleet, they charge you for gas and maintenance, insurance, etc; deducted straight from your check. You integrate with their comms / cpu systems, their tracking systems, etc. all for a price. You go where they tell you and when. It's an industry that's almost impossible to run profitably as an owner operator, because those folks are skinned. But, people are in love with the idea of owning their own business - it's kinda like an MLM that way. Now, I founded a trucking company that had as many as 15 trucks that ran over the road, both owner operators and company owned vehicles. At my size, there were very few economies of scale and we ran at a break even, at best - closing after a few years. We paid teams .40 cents a mile, all miles, backing out the per diem and paying SS / payroll taxes on the balance - an ridiculously high workmen's comp (first year was 24%, went down to 16.5% later). I could go into more detail, but you get the point.
- ohaideredevs 8y ago
  I would be very interested in the details. I keep hearing about friends of friends who pull $80,000 driving a truck, $120,000 when they own one and half a mil once they own a couple. Too lazy to actually do the research, but curious how close these claims are to the truth. Obviously you are seeing a very different picture, and yours actually comes from experience.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    Maybe they are quoting the money coming in before expenses like gas/lease etc? Maybe they put it an above average investment of time?
    - TylerE 8y ago
      Actually, time is pretty strictly regulated by the DOT. No more than 60 hours duty hours a week, no more than 14 duty hours in a row, of which no more than 11 hours can be actually driving, and must go off duty for at least 10 hours to reset the clock. Sounds more complicated than it is... once the duty period begins, any stops (fuel, breaks, meals, etc) do NOT stop the clock. This is why most long-haul operations use pairs of drivers... one will sleep in the bunk while the other drives.
alkonaut 8y ago
Regulators should set a minimum contractor comp that is significantly higher than the total cost of minimum wage + necessary other costs for security (pensions, healthcare). Obviously minimum wage for employees should also be required to include these benefits (if it doesn’t already). Otherwise the minimum wage regulation is possible to circumvent with contractor arrangements.
Spooky23 8y ago
Earning = get more cash. From a total compensation perspective, you’re better off with a larger operator.
anoncoward111 8y ago
A well-paid truck driver can't do it because in many states, such as NY, a comparable health insurance plan is about $800 a month [1], and that's before you even see the doc or pay deductible. [1] I have a broker's license I don't use anymore

denormalfloat 8y ago

How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. There is a market for non-fulltime jobs that would not exist at all if it was forced to be full time. Forcing Lyft to hire employees instead of contractors won't mean there will be more workers with a safety-net; it means there won't be any Lyft. That would be bad for both drivers and the people being driven.

baby 8y ago
“How much does he deserve”. Welcome to America. Honestly. This market is not a problem in European country where you get free health care. Why would uber/lyft make an exception for the US? If they can get away with it of course they will.
- ams6110 8y ago
  It isn't free.
- denormalfloat 8y ago
  As a rider, I am going to pick the cheapest ride. If Lyft pays their drivers less, it's because I pay Lyft less. If society as a whole picks Lyft, then it's society as a whole paying Lyft drivers less. I view Lyft more as a market maker rather than a company. In that sense, I agree with you, the market isn't the problem. The people to blame are riders, who got fed up with expensive and bad service taxis, and wanted cheaper rides. Lyft (and Uber) delivered on that, but they are only reflecting the will of us as riders.
  - baby 8y ago
    That’s why some stuff like health care should not be privatized. Because the market will always go against it.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - 8y ago

matz1 8y ago

Yes none, at least from Lyft. Because its not Lyft problem to ensure health care, thats more of goverment job.

badfrog 8y ago
In the US, the government has somehow convinced us that it is employers' job.

badfrog 8y ago

> So, if Lyft driver who was "gigging" for them for years gets sick and he is out of work, what kind of help would he get ? None, at least in US. Honestly, the same is probably true for most full-time and part-time employees in the US.

avree 8y ago
Employers are mandated to give health insurance to full-time employees after they reach a certain size in the US. So no, it is "probably" not true.
- badfrog 8y ago
  They're not required to pay you while you're unable to work. And aside from some fairly narrow exceptions in FMLA, they could just fire you for being sick.

freefal 8y ago

On the plus side, can't an independent truck driver or an Uber/Lyft driver claim tax deductions for all business-related expenses? From talking to a couple Uber drivers, my sense it that many are aggressive with the definition of "business-related" and deduct most of all their expenses. Appreciating the downsides (need to provide for one's own health insurance and retirement) I don't often see this increase net pay discussed.

edoceo 8y ago
Deductions are not like free money. There is not so much an increase in net pay, that's why it's not talked about.
michaelmrose 8y ago
The only way you deduct most of your expenses is to lie on your taxes and risk prison. Your friends are probably either exaggerating or criminals of the white collar variety. Furthermore say you are able to deduct $100 from your taxable income that you would have paid $30 taxes on you have saved the $30 not the $100 a tax deduction is a reduction on the amount taxed not in most cases free money remitted to the taxpayer. Most peoples expenses are heavily weighted towards, food medical, savings, living space. Whatever they can deduct will be a small portion of their overall expenses. So in turn you don't see this increase in net pay discussed because A) Its not an increase in pay its a tax deduction B) Its a small benefit that is absolutely dwarfed by the additional tax burdens + medical expenses. In short its not discussed because its imaginary.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Is an ACA marketplace plan available to him? And subsides based on income? I know people in their 60s not yet on Medicare with $800/month premiums with $600/month tax credits based on their income, so their premium nets out to $200/month.

alkibiades 8y ago

he can... buy insurance?

noitsnot 8y ago
A driver in the U.S. is banking by owning his own truck and trailer. There is little reason someone working even a half a year can't afford the best insurance on the marketplace.

furi 8y ago

Seems like the problem here is that the various safety nets don't extend to such people in the first place. It would also probably go a long ways to curbing the "employ ten people for 4 hours a week each" strategy we see used to avoid similar obligations.

Angostura 8y ago

>more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. However, he has non-existent social net. No health insurance, no pension benefits. And when those essentials are factored in, does he actually earn mire or less $$$?